No, I still Won’t Use Frost Clench

Calypso589

The range needs to be 28 meters, not 15, before I even will consider it as a taunt on my tank.

That said, the fact that it’s a projectile and not an instant cast makes it considerably more dangerous to use than inner rage and the Major Maim duration is inferior to any other source of Major Maim (IF a tank wanted Maim at all).

It’s just not good and I recommend ZoS either take another look at it or go full beans into speccing it for DPS.

Cuz this tank doesn’t plan to ever use it and I’m fairly confident I’m not alone.

YandereGirlfriend

Agree that the range on all of these skills really hurts.

On that note, why is Shock Clench also limited to 15 meters when it has no CC component to it? Makes no sense.

That said, I think that the Undaunted taunt actually IS a projectile as I have had opponents Dodge it in PvP (while trying to activate Yolnahkriin... I'm not crazy).

Vevvev

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

That said, I think that the Undaunted taunt actually IS a projectile as I have had opponents Dodge it in PvP (while trying to activate Yolnahkriin... I'm not crazy).

You're not crazy as it has travel time and is not hit scan. Can also be reflected, absorbed, and dodged.

Grandchamp1989

If they want it to be used properly for tanks, instead of Inner Range, have give it breach instead of maim and remove the cc.

Inner range got the range advantage
Clench gets the breach

ESO_Nightingale

Calypso589 wrote: »

The range needs to be 28 meters, not 15, before I even will consider it as a taunt on my tank.

That said, the fact that it’s a projectile and not an instant cast makes it considerably more dangerous to use than inner rage and the Major Maim duration is inferior to any other source of Major Maim (IF a tank wanted Maim at all).

It’s just not good and I recommend ZoS either take another look at it or go full beans into speccing it for DPS.

Cuz this tank doesn’t plan to ever use it and I’m fairly confident I’m not alone.

at least frost reach is amazing now.

CP5

I was going to comment about this in their feedback thread as well. The short range combined with the root makes it less than attractive for a tank in most fights. The maim plus the max health heal makes it interesting for high damage boss fights, and most tanks running a frost staff have another source of fracture but at the very least the easy uptime of brittle does help compensate for that.

Excelsus

15m is fine considering the advantages of a ranged taunt/debuff and the low cost but the duration should match the taunt length. 5s is not viable for tanking. Ice staff tanking is the annoying little brother that is both holding back frost dps and not really useful either.

OlumoGarbag

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

The range needs to be 28 meters, not 15, before I even will consider it as a taunt on my tank.

That said, the fact that it’s a projectile and not an instant cast makes it considerably more dangerous to use than inner rage and the Major Maim duration is inferior to any other source of Major Maim (IF a tank wanted Maim at all).

It’s just not good and I recommend ZoS either take another look at it or go full beans into speccing it for DPS.

Cuz this tank doesn’t plan to ever use it and I’m fairly confident I’m not alone.

at least frost reach is amazing now.

Have you tested it? Is the tooltip high enough to be usefull?

ESO_Nightingale

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

The range needs to be 28 meters, not 15, before I even will consider it as a taunt on my tank.

That said, the fact that it’s a projectile and not an instant cast makes it considerably more dangerous to use than inner rage and the Major Maim duration is inferior to any other source of Major Maim (IF a tank wanted Maim at all).

It’s just not good and I recommend ZoS either take another look at it or go full beans into speccing it for DPS.

Cuz this tank doesn’t plan to ever use it and I’m fairly confident I’m not alone.

at least frost reach is amazing now.

Have you tested it? Is the tooltip high enough to be usefull?

this is on a khajiit pve warden with medusa, frostbite and iceheart. 3 bloodthirsty 3 spell damage glyphs. only buffed with major sorcery and passives/slotted effects.

with frostbite on the initial hit is higher than dive by about 100 when taking advanced species into account.

CP5

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Calypso589 wrote: »

The range needs to be 28 meters, not 15, before I even will consider it as a taunt on my tank.

That said, the fact that it’s a projectile and not an instant cast makes it considerably more dangerous to use than inner rage and the Major Maim duration is inferior to any other source of Major Maim (IF a tank wanted Maim at all).

It’s just not good and I recommend ZoS either take another look at it or go full beans into speccing it for DPS.

Cuz this tank doesn’t plan to ever use it and I’m fairly confident I’m not alone.

at least frost reach is amazing now.

Have you tested it? Is the tooltip high enough to be usefull?

this is on a khajiit pve warden with medusa, frostbite and iceheart. 3 bloodthirsty 3 spell damage glyphs. only buffed with major sorcery and passives/slotted effects.

with frostbite on the initial hit is higher than dive by about 100 when taking advanced species into account.

Without frostbite it's still close enough that the chilled proc makes up the damage difference on its own, let alone the brittle uptime.

llBlack_Heartll

Excelsus wrote: »

15m is fine considering the advantages of a ranged taunt/debuff and the low cost but the duration should match the taunt length. 5s is not viable for tanking. Ice staff tanking is the annoying little brother that is both holding back frost dps and not really useful either.

I would agree that the Maim needs to be the same timer at the taunt.

Like I wouldn’t mind if they kept the cost but increased the duration of the de-buff.

YandereGirlfriend

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

15m is fine considering the advantages of a ranged taunt/debuff and the low cost but the duration should match the taunt length. 5s is not viable for tanking. Ice staff tanking is the annoying little brother that is both holding back frost dps and not really useful either.

I would agree that the Maim needs to be the same timer at the taunt.

Like I wouldn’t mind if they kept the cost but increased the duration of the de-buff.

That would be super OP though.

We have an entire set from a DLC dungeon (e.g. Bani's) whose sole purpose is to provide ~100% uptime on Major Maim.

If you can now get that from a simple taunt... that set would require either a re-work or a very substantial buff.

llBlack_Heartll

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

15m is fine considering the advantages of a ranged taunt/debuff and the low cost but the duration should match the taunt length. 5s is not viable for tanking. Ice staff tanking is the annoying little brother that is both holding back frost dps and not really useful either.

I would agree that the Maim needs to be the same timer at the taunt.

Like I wouldn’t mind if they kept the cost but increased the duration of the de-buff.

That would be super OP though.

We have an entire set from a DLC dungeon (e.g. Bani's) whose sole purpose is to provide ~100% uptime on Major Maim.

If you can now get that from a simple taunt... that set would require either a re-work or a very substantial buff.

Yes, but you also get 16% healing for 100% up time.

Ankaridan

Calypso589 wrote: »

The range needs to be 28 meters, not 15, before I even will consider it as a taunt on my tank.

That said, the fact that it’s a projectile and not an instant cast makes it considerably more dangerous to use than inner rage and the Major Maim duration is inferior to any other source of Major Maim (IF a tank wanted Maim at all).

It’s just not good and I recommend ZoS either take another look at it or go full beans into speccing it for DPS.

Cuz this tank doesn’t plan to ever use it and I’m fairly confident I’m not alone.

The lack of range is still the critical weakness behind the skill. The fact that it places a CC and delays stacking of mobs only further weakens it.

I still don't understand why Clench (short range, higher damage) was given the taunt instead of Reach (longer range, utility). They should swap the Frost versions of these morphs.

Ratzkifal

Honestly I kind of forgot how low the range of it is.
It should be at least 22m as to be the same range as pulls and gapclosers. Note that if the range is 28m the Reach passive in Alliance War will increase the range further. That's not necessarily going to make it overpowered, but it's something that needs to be considered because then people on top of keeps can use it against people siegeing.

Personally I am probably going to use the skill because then I don't think I need to use neither Blockade or Inner Rage anymore and I prefer tanking in melee range. Guaranteed status effect + reliable continuous enchantment proc + taunt + Major Maim sound like they can free a slot on my skill bar, which I desperately need.

Ankaridan

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Guaranteed status effect + reliable continuous enchantment proc + taunt + Major Maim sound like they can free a slot on my skill bar, which I desperately need.

It's not a continuous enchantment proc - the morph with taunt loses the DoT and becomes a single hit only. Losing Blockade also means you're losing out on the mag recovery (1800 mag/10s).

CP5

Thinking on it, the only change I really think is needed is for the range to be 22m. 15 is poor, but as an alternative to the 1hs taunt it works well. Rooting trash mobs does make it a pain regardless, though.

Calypso589

Vevvev wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

That said, I think that the Undaunted taunt actually IS a projectile as I have had opponents Dodge it in PvP (while trying to activate Yolnahkriin... I'm not crazy).

You're not crazy as it has travel time and is not hit scan. Can also be reflected, absorbed, and dodged.

This blew my mind. Been tanking for four years and I never ONCE saw those little red "mind spirals" travel across the room until I was fighting a dragon in Elsweyr after reading your comment and actually saw them travel.

lol

So I'll revise my statement that Inner Rage's "travel time" is seemingly instant in comparison to Clench. haha

CP5 wrote: »

Thinking on it, the only change I really think is needed is for the range to be 22m. 15 is poor, but as an alternative to the 1hs taunt it works well. Rooting trash mobs does make it a pain regardless, though.

Definitely not an alternative to Pierce Armor.

============================================

So I've had time to reflect a bit and it's for sure a more attractive option now as a replacement to Inner Rage, especially when you consider it's cost against everything it's doing for you.

But there's just flat out better ways to get those things.

1. If I absolutely wanted Major Maim, I can just use Bani's Torment and put the whole shebang on auto pilot (see Calamity's HM Xalvakka kill for ex).
2. If I want a root, then just about every tank has access to a class skill that roots in an AoE. What good is a single target root to me? Especially on my taunt? The thing I'd most likely use on bosses? Who are immune to roots?
3. If i want brittle, there's 3 different ways a group can get brittle be it from a healer, an OT or a magden DPS (for whom you're now making it a more attractive choice).

And then of course there's the range. 15 meters just isn't far enough for me to feel safe in slotting it. I need to be confident that my taunt will hit from near anywhere in the room if my MT goes down and I need to pick up the boss ASAP.

Couple that with Clench's slow travel time as opposed to Inner Rage's near instantaneous travel time and Clench isn't an attractive option whatsoever as an "oh snap" taunt for those situations where you need to make a save.
Clench's projectile can also be accidentally taken by wandering mobs in the fight. I experimented with it ONCE as a dual frost OT in a vet Lokkestiiz fight and I can't tell you how many times wandering Atros took my taunt or my taunt accidentally hit Lokkestiiz.

Some of that was L2P for sure, but those accidents are reduced to near zero if I instead use Inner Rage which works in a split second to immediately grab someone.

And then there's the encouragement of over taunting.

If I'm main tanking, it would seem extremely silly to refresh my taunt with Pierce Armor and then......taunt again for some brittle and some maim?

I've racked up two counters right there for no reason.

I dunno.

I'm very confused about what ZoS is trying to do with Clench for Tanks.

CP5

Remember, the major armor debuff is applied by ele-drain now, so at most it's only minor fracture that's missed, and trading that, something tanks went without applying themselves for a while, for brittle uptime is a fair trade-off in my opinion.

Calypso589

CP5 wrote: »

Remember, the major armor debuff is applied by ele-drain now, so at most it's only minor fracture that's missed, and trading that, something tanks went without applying themselves for a while, for brittle uptime is a fair trade-off in my opinion.

Or you can have all of it like we've been doing. /shrug

Frost Clench is NOT a replacement for Pierce Armor.

And the group never went without Minor Breach. During the meta when tanks were using Ransack, Minor Breach came from a templar using Power of the Light.

Hypothetically speaking if that were still the case, then Minor Brittle would continue to come from either the Off Tank, a Healer or a Magden.........just like it has been.

There's no reason to trade one for the other whatsoever and no reason to use Clench as replacement for Pierce Armor. Why would I drop a sword and shield skill that applies both Major and Minor Breach as my main melee taunt for a ranged taunt that doesn't apply any of those things?

And then I'd have to slot Ele Drain but it'd only apply half of those debuffs? And now a healer would have to slot Power of the Light again?

It wouldn't make any sense at all to do that.

At best Frost Clench is a nice alternative to inner rage in situations where you know there's a big attack coming and you wanna mitigate it.

But as a consistent source of Minor Brittle or Major Maim...........heck no.

Refreshing taunt every 5-6 seconds leaves way too much room for over taunting and a horrible situation if the MT goes down.

Phaedryn

I will use it on certain fights, the on demand Major Maim make it worth having it in the tool kit.

Fennwitty

Step in the right direction.

Primary difficulty continues to be the short range and counterproductive immobilize.

I'd prefer a snare or at least don't have Frost Clench trigger crowd control immunity.

Apparently the new armor sets can do crowd control without setting immunity, that type of thing should be possible.

Now I do actually like the major maim option. For some bosses you do want on-demand maim. But 5 seconds is far too short of a maximum. I don't want to 'spam' taunt -- taunting being reapplied at least once every 15 seconds is pretty darn short compared to most other MMOs, requiring a level of micromanagement.

I'd prefer upping the maim to at least 7 seconds max, so as a tank I'm not especially going out of my way to extra-taunt. Usually want to reapply taunts about ever 10-12 seconds when there's lag and/or lots of crowd control.

EDIT: Clarifying why 5 seconds is too short: Thinking of Rockgrove, lots of those enemies hit super hard. But it's difficult or impossible to know when those 'big' attacks are coming.

I dislike 'you must always dodge roll' design that's still prevalent in the game. I'm a tank, I want to be able to block big attacks without an 80% chance of dying. So on-demand major maim would help. For attacks with clear windups, sure a 5-second major maim would be a godsend.

But still thinking of Rockgrove ... maybe it's still bugs or lag but some mobs appear able to randomly do their big attacks with no cooldown, and very little telegraph.

Addons help for sure, but the time to react is so incredibly small I doubt I'd have time to even swap a bar let alone hit it with Frost Clench before I'm hit. So I'm forced to dodge roll.

Milli_Rabbit

Calypso589 wrote: »

The range needs to be 28 meters, not 15, before I even will consider it as a taunt on my tank.

That said, the fact that it’s a projectile and not an instant cast makes it considerably more dangerous to use than inner rage and the Major Maim duration is inferior to any other source of Major Maim (IF a tank wanted Maim at all).

It’s just not good and I recommend ZoS either take another look at it or go full beans into speccing it for DPS.

Cuz this tank doesn’t plan to ever use it and I’m fairly confident I’m not alone.

I love it. It is so easy to use and provides a balaned source of Major Maim. Major Maim before this PTS required wearing sets with proc conditions and give up important buff sets. Now, I just slot one skill that provides instant major maim, minor brittle, and taunt. It is amazing and well balanced. The range could be improved but honestly my testing hasn't seen a problem. Still, 20 meters at least?

Xebov

Excelsus wrote: »

15m is fine considering the advantages of a ranged taunt/debuff and the low cost but the duration should match the taunt length. 5s is not viable for tanking. Ice staff tanking is the annoying little brother that is both holding back frost dps and not really useful either.

There are no real advantages.
The bonus is to bad to replace Pierce Armor as the normal taunt.
The range is to short to replace Inner Rage as a range taunt.

If you use a range taunt you want range. The lower cost isnt helping me when i have to move into range first.

The only real reason to use it i see is maybe some boss fights where you can make use of the Maim in some situations, but thats about it.

CP5

Xebov wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

15m is fine considering the advantages of a ranged taunt/debuff and the low cost but the duration should match the taunt length. 5s is not viable for tanking. Ice staff tanking is the annoying little brother that is both holding back frost dps and not really useful either.

There are no real advantages.
The bonus is to bad to replace Pierce Armor as the normal taunt.
The range is to short to replace Inner Rage as a range taunt.

If you use a range taunt you want range. The lower cost isnt helping me when i have to move into range first.

The only real reason to use it i see is maybe some boss fights where you can make use of the Maim in some situations, but thats about it.

On demand 15% reduced incoming damage that buffs your groups outgoing crits as well is a nice tradeoff vs just fracture. Major is easy enough to find and minor has other sources. It's an alternative, it doesn't need to be identical.