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Ball groups & Purge: explain me this
rbfrgsp
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Ball groups being almost immortal is a known issue in Cyrodiil. A gang of formulaic builds, plus a discord server can mess up a whole night's play for everyone in zone, without really achieving anything for their own faction.
One of the big problems with ballgroups is the Purge skill, which members spam to avoid CC, damage, and heal each other all at once.
The problem is finding a way to limit the group effectiveness of Purge and morphs without breaking it's other uses.
How can that be done? I have never run a build that uses Purges so I don't know if this would work. But could you have one morph as a single selftargeting skill for solo players which is unchanged, and another for group play which has a two second delay between casting and effect?
With a two second delay on the group morph of the skill, and making the skill unstackable, then group spamming the skill would simply refresh the two second delay and the benefits would never actually land.
Would this work? Seems that at the very least it would raise the bar on the amount of skill and coordination required to run a ball group.
Edited by rbfrgsp on July 12, 2021 1:31PM One of the big problems with ballgroups is the Purge skill, which members spam to avoid CC, damage, and heal each other all at once.
The problem is finding a way to limit the group effectiveness of Purge and morphs without breaking it's other uses.
How can that be done? I have never run a build that uses Purges so I don't know if this would work. But could you have one morph as a single selftargeting skill for solo players which is unchanged, and another for group play which has a two second delay between casting and effect?
With a two second delay on the group morph of the skill, and making the skill unstackable, then group spamming the skill would simply refresh the two second delay and the benefits would never actually land.
Would this work? Seems that at the very least it would raise the bar on the amount of skill and coordination required to run a ball group.
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Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It would make the skill useless. You get hit with a 17K firepot treb that puts a huge DoT on you, waiting two seconds for the game's intended counter to work means you might as well not even slot it, especially as if someone else who is going to burn into a crisp in two seconds also hits purge and thus delays the one you cast even longer.
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rbfrgsp✭✭✭✭✭So purge is used to not only remove status effects but is also used as a group primary burst heal?3
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Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The counter for an organized group is a better organized group.
Using skills intended for group utility isn't an issue..4 -
Thraben✭✭✭✭✭Ball groups being almost immortal is a known issue in Cyrodiil. A gang of formulaic builds, plus a discord server can mess up a whole night's play for everyone in zone, without really achieving anything for their own faction.
One of the big problems with ballgroups is the Purge skill, which members spam to avoid CC, damage, and heal each other all at once.
The problem is finding a way to limit the group effectiveness of Purge and morphs without breaking it's other uses.
How can that be done? I have never run a build that uses Purges so I don't know if this would work. But could you have one morph as a single selftargeting skill for solo players which is unchanged, and another for group play which has a two second delay between casting and effect?
With a two second delay on the group morph of the skill, and making the skill unstackable, then group spamming the skill would simply refresh the two second delay and the benefits would never actually land.
Would this work? Seems that at the very least it would raise the bar on the amount of skill and coordination required to run a ball group.
You actually NEED them to purge in order to make Inevitable Detonation work. There are ballgroups that don't work with a purge bot. These are even harder to take down. Even more so in a NoProc Cyrodiil.Hauptmann der Dolche des Königs
DDK ist die letzte Verteidigungslinie des Dolchsturz- Bündnisses auf der 30-Tage-No-CP- Kampagne(EU) mit dem Anspruch, in kleinen, anfängerfreundlichen Raid-Gruppen möglichst epische Schlachten auszufechten.
DDK is the Daggerfall Covenant´s last line of defense on the 30 days no-cp campaign (EU). We intend to fight epic battles in small, casual player friendly raid groups.0 -
SimonThesis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Most Ballgroups will have 2 purgers and 4 healers, and all 12 people spamming radiating regen. Half the group will be wearing earthgore to remove enemy ultimates and harmful aoes. They're being purged every second, popping immovable pots on cooldown, and every person is getting over 70k heals per second.
The new anti ballgroup sets will either do nothing to ballgroups or they will be used by the ballgroups to more efficiently kill zergs.
A 2 second delay per person wont be enough needs to be at least a 5 second delay. Tho, If they really want to do something about ballgroups they need to make a purge block skill, ex a player hit with this skill cannot be purged for 5 seconds.Edited by SimonThesis on July 13, 2021 4:15PM4 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ball groups being almost immortal is a known issue in Cyrodiil. A gang of formulaic builds, plus a discord server can mess up a whole night's play for everyone in zone, without really achieving anything for their own faction.
One of the big problems with ballgroups is the Purge skill, which members spam to avoid CC, damage, and heal each other all at once.
The problem is finding a way to limit the group effectiveness of Purge and morphs without breaking it's other uses.
How can that be done? I have never run a build that uses Purges so I don't know if this would work. But could you have one morph as a single selftargeting skill for solo players which is unchanged, and another for group play which has a two second delay between casting and effect?
With a two second delay on the group morph of the skill, and making the skill unstackable, then group spamming the skill would simply refresh the two second delay and the benefits would never actually land.
Would this work? Seems that at the very least it would raise the bar on the amount of skill and coordination required to run a ball group.
You actually NEED them to purge in order to make Inevitable Detonation work. There are ballgroups that don't work with a purge bot. These are even harder to take down. Even more so in a NoProc Cyrodiil.
Most people don't run inevitable. Purge is more important for a ball group than someone throwing an inevitable det in the group.I drink and I stream things.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TheEndBringer wrote: »Ball groups being almost immortal is a known issue in Cyrodiil. A gang of formulaic builds, plus a discord server can mess up a whole night's play for everyone in zone, without really achieving anything for their own faction.
One of the big problems with ballgroups is the Purge skill, which members spam to avoid CC, damage, and heal each other all at once.
The problem is finding a way to limit the group effectiveness of Purge and morphs without breaking it's other uses.
How can that be done? I have never run a build that uses Purges so I don't know if this would work. But could you have one morph as a single selftargeting skill for solo players which is unchanged, and another for group play which has a two second delay between casting and effect?
With a two second delay on the group morph of the skill, and making the skill unstackable, then group spamming the skill would simply refresh the two second delay and the benefits would never actually land.
Would this work? Seems that at the very least it would raise the bar on the amount of skill and coordination required to run a ball group.
You actually NEED them to purge in order to make Inevitable Detonation work. There are ballgroups that don't work with a purge bot. These are even harder to take down. Even more so in a NoProc Cyrodiil.
Most people don't run inevitable. Purge is more important for a ball group than someone throwing an inevitable det in the group.
If more people ran Inevitable, then ball groups might change tactics a little. Thing is, like you say, it's rare to see more than one Inevtiable Det in a fight.
I figure that'll be the real key with these new sets. Do enough people build to use these and other sets to go out and kill ball groups? Or do the PUGs build for generic PVP, and then complain that only the ball groups are using those sets to kill large groups?3 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »TheEndBringer wrote: »Ball groups being almost immortal is a known issue in Cyrodiil. A gang of formulaic builds, plus a discord server can mess up a whole night's play for everyone in zone, without really achieving anything for their own faction.
One of the big problems with ballgroups is the Purge skill, which members spam to avoid CC, damage, and heal each other all at once.
The problem is finding a way to limit the group effectiveness of Purge and morphs without breaking it's other uses.
How can that be done? I have never run a build that uses Purges so I don't know if this would work. But could you have one morph as a single selftargeting skill for solo players which is unchanged, and another for group play which has a two second delay between casting and effect?
With a two second delay on the group morph of the skill, and making the skill unstackable, then group spamming the skill would simply refresh the two second delay and the benefits would never actually land.
Would this work? Seems that at the very least it would raise the bar on the amount of skill and coordination required to run a ball group.
You actually NEED them to purge in order to make Inevitable Detonation work. There are ballgroups that don't work with a purge bot. These are even harder to take down. Even more so in a NoProc Cyrodiil.
Most people don't run inevitable. Purge is more important for a ball group than someone throwing an inevitable det in the group.
If more people ran Inevitable, then ball groups might change tactics a little. Thing is, like you say, it's rare to see more than one Inevtiable Det in a fight.
I figure that'll be the real key with these new sets. Do enough people build to use these and other sets to go out and kill ball groups? Or do the PUGs build for generic PVP, and then complain that only the ball groups are using those sets to kill large groups?
Unless you somehow hit all 12 with their own inevitable I don't think it matters because of hots. Hitting one or two? Damage won't do diddly.I drink and I stream things.0 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
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If you stand in a giant red circle that gives you several seconds warning and has a 14 second cooldown, you deserve to be one shotted. Your whole group deserves to be one shotted. It's absolutely pathetic how ineffective siege is against a group prepared to counter it.Joy_Division wrote: »You get hit with a 17K firepot treb that puts a huge DoT on youPC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps3 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
If you stand in a giant red circle that gives you several seconds warning and has a 14 second cooldown, you deserve to be one shotted. Your whole group deserves to be one shotted. It's absolutely pathetic how ineffective siege is against a group prepared to counter it.Joy_Division wrote: »You get hit with a 17K firepot treb that puts a huge DoT on you
If there are people who have gotten more AP from dumping oil on PC NA I can count them on one hand. Without question, the vast majority of people I have killed via oil did not willingly choose to stand in the giant red circle that my pouring created. There are times and circumstances when you got to go to certain places that you'd rather not. Which is why the first thing so many 5 stars do when breaking down the front gate is run up the castle towers and set up their own siege to fire into the inner keep because they know they'll rack up thousands of AP for doing nothing but pressing their right mouse button every 14 seconds.
This is aside from the problematic other implications of putting a delay on purge, such as PvE players who use the skill to cleanse potentially unavoidable lethal effects, which will make it so that when players complain about PvP ruining the other aspects of the game, that claim will actually be correct as opposed to hyperbole.
There are many thoughtful things ZOS can do to reign in the relative power gap between those who run in organized groups and those who don't that have been suggested the past 7 1/2 years that don;t involve making skill useless or using a piece of inventory to one-shot entire groups (not to mention regular players who do not have support players).3 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
If you stand in a giant red circle that gives you several seconds warning and has a 14 second cooldown, you deserve to be one shotted. Your whole group deserves to be one shotted. It's absolutely pathetic how ineffective siege is against a group prepared to counter it.Joy_Division wrote: »You get hit with a 17K firepot treb that puts a huge DoT on you
If only the giant red circles animated all the time, but many times you’re just hit with invisible seige. Then the times the red circles do animate it’s all over the front of the keep so you’re just running out of one circle into another because a 14 second cooldown does not exist when there is 20 seige at a keep.
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xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
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Oil ruins pugs but does absolutely nothing to groups that coordinate HoT stacking and purge spam. We have two choices. Play in one of these immortal groups yourself, or join the 60+ faction stack haplessly chasing them around the walls for an hour. Actually, I choose a third option, log out and cancel my ESO+ again.Joy_Division wrote: »Without question, the vast majority of people I have killed via oil did not willingly choose to stand in the giant red circle that my pouring created.
Of course the ball group players don't want to give up their immortality...PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps4 -
SimonThesis✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just think they need another assualt skill with a cast time kind of like inevitable det. A player hit with this skill cannot be purged or remove negative effects for 2 seconds. That would help average players counter the purge spam of ballgroups.2 -
Kory✭✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Of course the ball group players don't want to give up their immortality...Joy_Division wrote: »Without question, the vast majority of people I have killed via oil did not willingly choose to stand in the giant red circle that my pouring created.
They aren't so immortal after getting bombed and sent to the shadow realm.
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