The "Make a Better Organized Group Thread"

neferpitou73

Given all the "nerf ball group" threads that pop up around here I thought it might be nice for a change of pace, :a "how can I start my own group and make it better thread?" I'd like this to be a constructive discussion where people more experienced in leading groups or making group builds share their knowledge in order to help people who haven't tried it but are thinking about giving it a go. I'm hoping to avoid a lot of contentious debate in here if possible (yes I know it's the internet), just a general thread for sharing advice and helping people improve.

So with that let me give some advice about what I think is a good starter group comp. The bare minimum you need to be successful in an organized group, in terms of composition is: role and ult distribution. Leading a group takes practice and experience so don't worry if you fail right away (I'm not particularly experienced on the leadership side as well) I typically like to run the following in a less experienced group:

3-4 healers
2-3 Support
5-6 Damage

Your builds typically want to have the following ultimates on them:

2-3 negates
2-3 Barriers
2-3 Destro
1-2 Nova

A word about negates: Negate is by far one of the most important skills in Cyrodiil, negating an enemies damage and healing in a small area. Fights between experienced groups often comes down on the timing of negates, counter negates, counter-counter negates etc.

Other essential skills in a group comp include rapids for speed and CCs such as fear and streak.

While I think sets are less important to than people make them out to be (although they are very important, just probably not the thing you should focus on) here are some good sets to have in your group:

heal/suppport:
-Earthgore
-Sanctuary
-Powerful Assual
-Spell Power Cure
-Meritorious Service
-Grave Guardian
-Curse Eater

Damage:
-Balorgh
-Vicious Death
-New Moon Acolyte
-Spinner's Garments
-Spriggan's Thorns

And I'm sure I've missed many

Greasytengu

Its easy to learn but hard to master. The important thing is to keep trying and learn from your defeats.

If your goal is playing the map and breaking up zergs then you don't even have to win every fight, merely tying up an equal or greater force for a few minutes can be the difference between enemies getting reinforcements at a flagged keep and a successful keep defense for your allies.

MipMip

An important element that you don't mention is synergies, like for example Boneyard. Synergies are important for a group's burst damage, and a group's ability to time and place their synergies in a dynamic situation can make a big difference.

And many thanks for starting a constructive thread about organized groups!

VaranisArano

I didn't see this mentioned, so I'll add it. On PC, I'd highly advise using voice comms. Even for PUG raids, voice comms make it so much easier to communicate clearly, and you can usually get more players who actually want to play with the group when you insist that you need to be with the group, at least listening in comms, and making an effort to follow orders.

I've led PUGs with group chat, and it's a frustrating mess when things are going well, and downright impossible to do tactics more complicated than pointing them at the enemy when in the middle of a battle.

Use Voice Comms. Way back when I was an inexperienced PVPer PUGing it, I remember joining up with a guild, and finally yielding to their pleas that I join their TS after several sessions. I was only listening in, but immediately I was like "Oh my gosh, I die so much less when I can hear the orders!" Suddenly, I didn't have to guess when they were going to push forward or retreat. (Then I promptly picked up an Ayleid Well buff before the whole group got there because I didn't know what I was doing and got to listen to them complain about whoever did it. 😅 Oops! )

Pauwer

Without voice chat it is a fail. At least the leader has to talk and all group listen and follow. I know one regular crown who never speaks and then throws a fit when peeps don't stick to crown (and wipe). It is impossible to follow without voice.

DTAmoral

Iv occasionally crowned, but usually I just play follow the leader. So a couple notes id give to wanna-be crowns:

-Make sure you are clear about what you are doing / the plan

-Do your best to not go back and fourth on what you say / sometimes pulls dont work out so you have to back off, but dont say drop ults here, and then say never mind while you are doing it. Commit to your call, if its a bad call thats FINE tell your group to dodge roll through and try again. - This is messy but hard to explain.

-If you have more than 1 negate / barrier in group make sure you have a system in place on who is to do theirs first. Whether that means A drops on group, and B drops behind group, or A is the offensive one, and B is the defensive one. There is a few ways to do this. As long as you are not double negating one spot, or double barrier's on one push you are fine.

-Dont ride the zerg. This should be obvious. You are ball grouped for a reason. Take your group to outposts, and other areas that are not heavily being zerged by your alliance. If you ride the zerg - you're not ball grouping you're just zerging in style.

-Last point: As crown/lead its your job to dictate, and manage the group how you want. Whether its what sets you want the group running, what skills you want more of. Some ball groups run the META, some ball groups run around in tanks / bombers some ball groups have all stam. There are tons of diff types of ball groups, you just have to figure out what works for you and your group.


Success in ball groups comes down to your leadership skills. You do what you think is best for your group.

FOR THE MEMBERS IN BALL GROUP FOLLOWING LEADER

-Make sure you listen to your crown. He/She is in charge.

-Keep your regen up, and keep your buffs up.

-Cut the chatter when fighting only person that should be talking is crown, and you when you tell him/her your ult is up or down / calling out bombs.

-Stay on your crown. This is the most important point to make here, if you are not on your crown you are useless.

NordSwordnBoard

I feel like half of crown success is situational awareness. Always have an exit strategy as well as one for victory. Get people to use the compass for call outs instead of "over here, on me". Call out the name or the CP number (if the name is too much to say) of who you focus. Remember the delay on voice chat is around 0.5-1 second, when timing things like proxy. Consider adapting your goals to the group capabilities more often than trying to mold groups as you see fit. Good players will volunteer when you ask for negates, ccs or what your group needs. Inexperienced/players that aren't as good won't be much better doing something unfamiliar to them. Compliment people - really! Giving credit where it is due makes everyone feel appreciated and helps group morale. In my experience, the worst crowns think its all about them.

Marcus_Aurelius

Because we need more groups exploting broken mechanics (purge, over stacking of health and such).

YandereGirlfriend

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

Because we need more groups exploting broken mechanics (purge, over stacking of health and such).

This is a positive thread.

Please take your axe-grinding Elsweyr.

neferpitou73

I just wanted to say there are some fantastic pieces of advice in this thread! In particular the stuff about leading groups. In fact I was going to post something similar to this:

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

I feel like half of crown success is situational awareness. Always have an exit strategy as well as one for victory. Get people to use the compass for call outs instead of "over here, on me". Call out the name or the CP number (if the name is too much to say) of who you focus. Remember the delay on voice chat is around 0.5-1 second, when timing things like proxy. Consider adapting your goals to the group capabilities more often than trying to mold groups as you see fit. Good players will volunteer when you ask for negates, ccs or what your group needs. Inexperienced/players that aren't as good won't be much better doing something unfamiliar to them. Compliment people - really! Giving credit where it is due makes everyone feel appreciated and helps group morale. In my experience, the worst crowns think its all about them.

Which I've found very useful in my limited (at least compared to most regular ball group leads) experience.

I also think it's important not to try to micromanage your group down to the last skill. Reminding people to stay on crown is fine, telling them to save ults is fine, etc. But if you have semi-experienced people in your group they know (and get better) at the timing of negates, destros, bombing opportunities etc so it's important to trust that they know what they're doing and not get paralyzed by trying to manage the timing of everything.

In general I find that I lead groups more by "feel" then by planning. It's like playing a really large, somewhat clunky build: you develop an instinct and timing for everything.

It's also important to lead on a build on which you're comfortable playing. I personally love leading on my nightblade bomber because it has a simple rotation and I get a bloodlust on that build which is good for spotting bombing opportunities for the group. In comparison I hate playing on support builds because I have to keep up buffs while trying to think tactically.

DTAmoral

neferpitou73 wrote: »

I also think it's important not to try to micromanage your group down to the last skill. Reminding people to stay on crown is fine, telling them to save ults is fine, etc.

I agree for the most part - but some skills are mandatory and unless you run them you cant be in group. Usually its just a couple skills - for example Radiating Regeneration on all mag characters is a must for obvious reasons, and Echoing Vigor
for all stam characters in group, and also wardens running Expansive Frost Cloak // aside from those 3 being must haves I cant think of another one off my head

telling someone what every single skill should be though - usually not the play unless they ask for your help.

Marcus_Aurelius

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

Because we need more groups exploting broken mechanics (purge, over stacking of health and such).

This is a positive thread.

Please take your axe-grinding Elsweyr.

I see telling the true as a positive thing.

DTAmoral

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

Because we need more groups exploting broken mechanics (purge, over stacking of health and such).

Would you rather see 5 or more new ball groups running around in small numbers capping other places of the map, fighting in empty fields and such away from zergs so there is less people in one spot

or

More mindless zerging adding more and more players into one spot to cause more lag?

More ball groups the better. Just because there are strong skills made stronger by group coordination doesnt make them broken.

Sandman929

DTAmoral wrote: »

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

Because we need more groups exploting broken mechanics (purge, over stacking of health and such).

Would you rather see 5 or more new ball groups running around in small numbers capping other places of the map, fighting in empty fields and such away from zergs so there is less people in one spot

or

More mindless zerging adding more and more players into one spot to cause more lag?

More ball groups the better. Just because there are strong skills made stronger by group coordination doesnt make them broken.

Ball groups are for fighting zergs...so claiming that ball groups operate away from zergs isn't really accurate unless they're looking to be bored. There are very few groups that I know of that have any interest in taking map objectives unless taking that objective is to lure a zerg.

DTAmoral

Sandman929 wrote: »

Ball groups are for fighting zergs...so claiming that ball groups operate away from zergs isn't really accurate unless they're looking to be bored. There are very few groups that I know of that have any interest in taking map objectives unless taking that objective is to lure a zerg.

Well I see you're from Xbox NA as well so, EP guilds like mine DTA (Team Rocket) and like Conflict Marker they are normally looking for other ball groups to fight. Defending a home keep from a zerg is one thing, but usually we are out in the fields, bridges, or walking to the other side of the map to take something over there and draw attention

Sandman929

DTAmoral wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Ball groups are for fighting zergs...so claiming that ball groups operate away from zergs isn't really accurate unless they're looking to be bored. There are very few groups that I know of that have any interest in taking map objectives unless taking that objective is to lure a zerg.

Well I see you're from Xbox NA as well so, EP guilds like mine DTA (Team Rocket) and like Conflict Marker they are normally looking for other ball groups to fight. Defending a home keep from a zerg is one thing, but usually we are out in the fields, bridges, or walking to the other side of the map to take something over there and draw attention

Right, and drawing attention is drawing numbers. No ball group is looking to fight a lower number of disorganized players. Balls groups and zergs are two sides of the same coin, a ball group draws a zerg and a zerg draws a ball group to fight it. The purpose of taking a back keep is to pull a large number of players to try taking back from you.

Greasytengu

Sandman929 wrote: »

DTAmoral wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Ball groups are for fighting zergs...so claiming that ball groups operate away from zergs isn't really accurate unless they're looking to be bored. There are very few groups that I know of that have any interest in taking map objectives unless taking that objective is to lure a zerg.

Well I see you're from Xbox NA as well so, EP guilds like mine DTA (Team Rocket) and like Conflict Marker they are normally looking for other ball groups to fight. Defending a home keep from a zerg is one thing, but usually we are out in the fields, bridges, or walking to the other side of the map to take something over there and draw attention

Right, and drawing attention is drawing numbers. No ball group is looking to fight a lower number of disorganized players. Balls groups and zergs are two sides of the same coin, a ball group draws a zerg and a zerg draws a ball group to fight it. The purpose of taking a back keep is to pull a large number of players to try taking back from you.

so you'd rather the lag of a 40v40 fight on the front lines than a 40v12 in a back keep?

Sandman929

Greasytengu wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

DTAmoral wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Ball groups are for fighting zergs...so claiming that ball groups operate away from zergs isn't really accurate unless they're looking to be bored. There are very few groups that I know of that have any interest in taking map objectives unless taking that objective is to lure a zerg.

Well I see you're from Xbox NA as well so, EP guilds like mine DTA (Team Rocket) and like Conflict Marker they are normally looking for other ball groups to fight. Defending a home keep from a zerg is one thing, but usually we are out in the fields, bridges, or walking to the other side of the map to take something over there and draw attention

Right, and drawing attention is drawing numbers. No ball group is looking to fight a lower number of disorganized players. Balls groups and zergs are two sides of the same coin, a ball group draws a zerg and a zerg draws a ball group to fight it. The purpose of taking a back keep is to pull a large number of players to try taking back from you.

so you'd rather the lag of a 40v40 fight on the front lines than a 40v12 in a back keep?

I didn't "rather" anything, but I'm not going to claim that the purpose of a ball group is to create small fights.

DTAmoral

Sandman929 wrote: »

Right, and drawing attention is drawing numbers. No ball group is looking to fight a lower number of disorganized players. Balls groups and zergs are two sides of the same coin, a ball group draws a zerg and a zerg draws a ball group to fight it. The purpose of taking a back keep is to pull a large number of players to try taking back from you.

You are right - Ball groups dont usually attack small scale players, and solo players because theres nothing to gain from that. I think we are basically saying the same thing, I was just trying to make it clear that like if EP is pushing for emp for example - most ball groups are not going to be following the zerg, they are going to be walking the other way around the map stopping back caps and such since other smarter groups will be doing that to push away from the EP zerg

Sandman929

DTAmoral wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Right, and drawing attention is drawing numbers. No ball group is looking to fight a lower number of disorganized players. Balls groups and zergs are two sides of the same coin, a ball group draws a zerg and a zerg draws a ball group to fight it. The purpose of taking a back keep is to pull a large number of players to try taking back from you.

You are right - Ball groups dont usually attack small scale players, and solo players because theres nothing to gain from that. I think we are basically saying the same thing, I was just trying to make it clear that like if EP is pushing for emp for example - most ball groups are not going to be following the zerg, they are going to be walking the other way around the map stopping back caps and such since other smarter groups will be doing that to push away from the EP zerg

Absolutely agree, no group wants to be with their own faction zerg, but they do want to create a large fight with a portion of the enemy faction zerg.
That fight will continue until the group is ignored or overwhelmed.
So IMO this isn't about creating smaller fights, it's about pulling the larger fight to a favorable location.

Joy_Division

In the interest of trying to maintain the original positive tone of the OP, I'll add some feedback.

Every member of the group should probably have at least 30K health (before buffs). Bombing is so strong and so common that anyone who isn;t meeting this standard is just a VD proc. Also with 12 people as the max, losing just one or two during a fight might mean losing critical mass for a sustainable group composition, much ore so than the older group cap of 24.

Earthgore is such a strong set that not only do multiple members of a group need to be in it, but the group's tactics and choice of ultimate should take that set into account. It's one thing to call out a bomb and drop a Nova to set up a synergy and main the bad guys, another when the all of a sudden an Earthgore proc automatically heals wounded enemies and the ultimate you were counting on just *poof* disappears.

The potions a player uses should have immovable as one of its components. As a solo player, it's usually not a big deal getting stunned because you can just CC break and resume whatever it was you were doing. In a group, other people are counting on you to do something, usually with split second timing.

The harmony trait, especially on DPS, is extremely strong and worth adopting specific classes (e.g. Necro instead of Nightblade) to best use it.

Most of all, have fun. It's certainly not ZOS's balance that keeps me playing. Keep things light, have a sense of humor, set realistic expectations, etc.

neferpitou73

Awesome advice, specially with the health requirements! And yes, let's try to keep the thread positive, we have enough threads to complain about ball groups on.

DTAmoral

Someone else posted this link yesterday, but it fits into this conversation perfect as well.

https://darkelves.com/group-composition/

also there is another one from them that is good as well!

https://darkelves.com/positioning/

Flangdoodle

Lots of great points. I like this thread. I guess the only thing I would contribute is - *pick your fights*.

It's tempting to go charging-in to defend your stuff, but you're not going to help anyone let alone yourself and your group by banging your head against the same wall.

If you're outmatched you're outmatched. Leaving is a perfectly valid strategy. Wait until the time/place/situation is more beneficial to give it a go. Patience is a weapon.

Above all remember: THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN 😂

Cheers. 🍸🍸

Durham

I think this is all good advice I will like to add one thing. Once you start running a ball remember a good 5th of your kills are from Lag lock stuns that kill most people. If that does not kill them it the fact they cant switch bars to heal. Ball groups are the major contributor of lag its not the fault of the ball groups they are utilizing the design of the game. Its just that Cyrodill cannot handle that style of play. So, Speed and CC is your friend.

Thraben

Formations in Cyrodiil and how to abuse them


If you could observe typically Cyro zerg fight situations from above, particularly those in the usual "open field fight" areas, things might roughly look like this: This occurs naturally, as the effective ranged combat range is 30-50 m, and if you are too far from the action, you won't get any AP. so most zerglings happen to be in the same area, where the can shoot at enemies, but are not too close to be in perceived danger.








Now we generalise the individual formations: A Bomb group typically runs in a naturally occuring column formation; it's the automatic product of an optimised group with a CC "speedster", a raid leader, some DDs and some supporters. Players need to be within an 8m diamteter of each other to concentrate bomb damage and some forms of healing. A zerg is obviously more wide than deep in static combat ("zerging") situations, so we can roughly describe it as some form of rectangular mass.







Now what do we do with this kind of knowledge?

Most ballgroups are laughably bad at fighting epic open field battles as they tend to run straight through the enemy mass and hope for the best, then run with their tail between their legs to the next tower or chokepoint. The last reaction is totally understandable, as you are not only being shot at by the whole zerg when you frontally charge them, but also being attacked from all sides if your attack succeeds. If you don't stop running, you encircle yourself and will be destroyed. Unfortunately, the few VD kills you get in the process are not nearly enough to justify the effort.

So, what are the alternatives?

1) Firstly, you should stop running in straight lines: if you run a slight curve within the enemy zerg, you will cover more ground with your AoE attacks and drive the partly encircled players closer to each other, like a herd of sheep running from the shepherd dog, and thus your AoE damage effectiveness increases. This is the classical Napoleonic frontal attack followed by a turn to the left or the right. With enough speed and CC immunity, you should be able to outrun the effective combat range of the unharmed part of the zerg and use you local superiority in numbers to crush the other half. This is also what you do when the zerg consists of unorganised players on one flank, and a guild group on the other.

2) Secondly, you could avoid the massive incoming ranged fire of a frontal attack and attack from either the flanks or the rear. Intuitively, most players would prefer the later option because they have heard that this is better in historic battle situations. However, here we can simply calculate the best angle of attack:



Like with a cannonball, you will hit more targets of a rather shallow, rectangular formation, if you get though it diagonally, from the flanks - unless the enemy zerg is really only 3 ranks deep (more precisly, 8m thin) or so. In that case, your AoE damage will cover the whole zerg and the best way through it is right from the flanks.

Moreover, if you attack diagonally from the flanks, you will always have only a few people who can fight back: Just imagine this rectangular would be filled with people, how many can attack you in the moment your AoE attacks hit them? Hardly more than 3. Even when you reached the centre, you will still locally outnumber the poor zerg players who are not panicking.

That's the reason most successful keep defenses by guild groups consist of open field attacks against the zerg from the rear flanks.

neferpitou73

Adding to the above there are certain tactical situations I love taking advantage of when leading:

1.) Running an enemy zerg into a wall. This is a full frontal attack advised against in the above, but the reason I love it is that most people panic when they see a large group running towards them so they run the other way--right into a wall. Which means they're nice and grouped up for a good ult dump against the keep door. The front door at Chal is a nice example of a good place for this, due to the natural choke in front of the door.

2.) Jumping off the cliff. This one's a little tricky to pull off but one thing I like to do is to take advantage of fall damage to lower an enemies health. So for instance, if I see an enemy group charging at us when we're on a ledge one thing I like to do is jump off the ledge and have our healers quickly heal us up. If the enemies stupid they'll jump off after you at which point they've lost a lot of health and are no pinned against a cliff for an ult dump. This obviously only works if you have good timing.

One thing I'd advise leaders to do is get used to playing "positional chess." If you opponent is in a good position, don't attack him there. Go to a better spot and dare him to attack you. He'll then move to a better position and so on. The key point I'm trying to get at here is don't get overly aggressive and attack an opponent you can't kill, maneuver yourself into a better position.

Although one thing I'd also advise against is being too cautious. Being overly aggressive is bad but being too cautious is worse in my opinion. The aggressive leader at least get's some kills and has an effect on the map, and is willing to press advantages even if he doesn't use them in the best way.

Thraben

Which aspects of a group should one improve?

In order to become a better group, you need to know in which area you need to become better. This is less trivial than one might expect: Whenever I'm helping out other casual groups who want to become more, I notice the pattern that they oftentimes focus on the wrong things:

Particularly SIEGING.

It's absolutely typical that the group measures its "success" by counting how many sieges they can build up. This is wrong because the thought behind it is: "If we can siege more quickly, we won't get overwhelmed by enemy numbers". So the purpose of it is to actively avoid becoming better.

A good objective would be: "Let's take the keep and kill at least as many players as we have in the process." This is, by the way, a rather harsh one, as it basically excludes taking empty keeps; in Europe, even the currently strongest ball group is not able to do this consistently.



Here are some other fields where you can improve:

1) Choke point battles. This is a classical ball group discipline. Improving in this area goes along with improvements in sets and group setup.

Suggestion: Watch and analyse the videos the ball groups are presenting. Improve your damage dealer's damage and group synergies.

2) Scroll runs. Also a classical ball group discipline: Here, mainly group cohersion and healing power are required and trained. Remember that it's not the objective to bring the scroll home as quickly as possibly. A training effect can only be achieved by FIGHTING with the scroll.

Suggestion: 2-3 players should always be on camp duty, so that you can continue fighting even when you are bombed. In general, it is easier to get the scroll back than to defend it.

3) Guild versus Guild fights. Surprisingly to some, this is NOT a classical ball group area. This is because most groups consider 1) as their main thing, and having a group which is mainly a bunch of MagBlade bombers + supporters is a weakness when the other guys are fighting in a spread-out manner.

Suggestion: Split up your group in sub-groups (the RDK group tool allows you to have markers on people's heads). Multiple waves of Ultimates have become standard, but the most effective way I have seen in the last years was the creation of "hunting pack" sub-groups, which consisted of 1 Necro and 1-2 MagBlades. Whilst the main raid stays behind and binds the other group, 2 of these hunting packs flank the other group and can strike at any moment. Another option is to abandon the ball group fighting style altogether, and fight with 2 independent guild groups of 6 people.

4) Retreat: An orderly retreat is one of the most difficult manoevres in the military. Here, in the game, it is equally important. Inexperienced ball groups charge into the enemy mass and kill as many as they can, then die. This is not a good strategy if you want to improve yourself: An orderly retreat means that you can counterattack your pursuers regularly, adding 10-20 further kills to the list, and more importantly, it creates an air of dread and dispair around your group. People will think you are almost invincible, and the best victim is the one that does not even fight back because s/he thinks he has no chance anyway.

Suggestion: Have one or two dedicated "rear-guard" players. StamSorcs and Bombblades are generally good for this task. They will countercharge your pursuers without any intention of killing them, and then re-join your group. Alternatively, equip your whole your with cloaking potions.

5) Open field battles. Originally, ball groups had the ability to fight on open ground; it was totally normal to clear a 1000m² area full of players until no opposition remained. Nowadays, most cannot even clear a keep's inner yard. A good keep defense consists of three phases: the skirmishing phase, where you reduce the enemy zerg by defeating it in detail, the choke point phase, where you use your AoE damage superiority to farm them in confined spaces, and the clean-up phase, where you kill the 30 or so players which are left. The first and the last phase require proficiency in open field combat, something that most modern ball group are sorely lacking,