Maintenance for the week of January 13:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – January 13

Surely ZOS don’t think the community can handle any more of this boring permanent tank meta?

  • Raeyleigh
    Raeyleigh
    ✭✭✭
    Raeyleigh wrote: »
    Nerfing healing on most classes and creating more damage evasion mechanics would solve the problem.
    Alucardo wrote: »
    The only way they can kill someone is if it they all ult dump on the same person, but they can barely be scratched, so eventually they'll wear you down, even if it takes an hour.

    So do we like perma-kiting and prefer it be the only viable playstyle? "Kite until Ult" seems to be a popular alternative to the venerable Akaviri martial tradition of "Block until Ult", I don't really see that one is all that much more fun to play or play against than the other.

    Sorc mains will say "Kiting is more virtuous, to sit still in combat is lazy"

    DK mains will say "Blocking is more virtuous, to flee from combat is cowardly"

    The decisive difference here is that

    1. Movement based defense ala sorc & nb allows them to built squishier and not help perpetrate the tank meta

    2. If kiting mechanics are your defense instead of sheer numbers you can actually do something wrong and die for it. Especially warden, necro and werewolf have nothing they can mechanicly fail at. You have to punch through them with sheer numbers. Thereby they are perpetuating the tank meta

    3. People run around towers, trees and rocks only ever fighting back with an ult dump because it works. Shalks, blastbones and balorgh be praised. Other classes cannot turn around for an immediate 100-0 kill, unless of course the pursuer is a PvEler with 20k health.
    Edited by Raeyleigh on June 22, 2021 1:01AM
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Raeyleigh wrote: »
    Raeyleigh wrote: »
    Nerfing healing on most classes and creating more damage evasion mechanics would solve the problem.
    Alucardo wrote: »
    The only way they can kill someone is if it they all ult dump on the same person, but they can barely be scratched, so eventually they'll wear you down, even if it takes an hour.

    So do we like perma-kiting and prefer it be the only viable playstyle? "Kite until Ult" seems to be a popular alternative to the venerable Akaviri martial tradition of "Block until Ult", I don't really see that one is all that much more fun to play or play against than the other.

    Sorc mains will say "Kiting is more virtuous, to sit still in combat is lazy"

    DK mains will say "Blocking is more virtuous, to flee from combat is cowardly"

    The decisive difference here is that

    1. Movement based defense ala sorc & nb allows them to built squishier and not help perpetrate the tank meta

    2. If kiting mechanics are your defense instead of sheer numbers you can actually do something wrong and die for it. Especially warden, necro and werewolf have nothing they can mechanicly fail at. You have to punch through them with sheer numbers. Thereby they are perpetuating the tank meta

    3. People run around towers, trees and rocks only ever fighting back with an ult dump because it works. Shalks, blastbones and balorgh be praised. Other classes cannot turn around for an immediate 100-0 kill, unless of course the pursuer is a PvEler with 20k health.

    I might be lost in the conversation here, but you were saying healing should be nerfed because of "block as primary defense" specs, so that "evade as primary defense" becomes the preferred strategy for all offensive specs?
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Raeyleigh
    Raeyleigh
    ✭✭✭
    Raeyleigh wrote: »
    Raeyleigh wrote: »
    Nerfing healing on most classes and creating more damage evasion mechanics would solve the problem.
    Alucardo wrote: »
    The only way they can kill someone is if it they all ult dump on the same person, but they can barely be scratched, so eventually they'll wear you down, even if it takes an hour.

    So do we like perma-kiting and prefer it be the only viable playstyle? "Kite until Ult" seems to be a popular alternative to the venerable Akaviri martial tradition of "Block until Ult", I don't really see that one is all that much more fun to play or play against than the other.

    Sorc mains will say "Kiting is more virtuous, to sit still in combat is lazy"

    DK mains will say "Blocking is more virtuous, to flee from combat is cowardly"

    The decisive difference here is that

    1. Movement based defense ala sorc & nb allows them to built squishier and not help perpetrate the tank meta

    2. If kiting mechanics are your defense instead of sheer numbers you can actually do something wrong and die for it. Especially warden, necro and werewolf have nothing they can mechanicly fail at. You have to punch through them with sheer numbers. Thereby they are perpetuating the tank meta

    3. People run around towers, trees and rocks only ever fighting back with an ult dump because it works. Shalks, blastbones and balorgh be praised. Other classes cannot turn around for an immediate 100-0 kill, unless of course the pursuer is a PvEler with 20k health.

    I might be lost in the conversation here, but you were saying healing should be nerfed because of "block as primary defense" specs, so that "evade as primary defense" becomes the preferred strategy for all offensive specs?

    Yes

    Unless of course you enjoy the hilarious sight of 2 necros trying in vain to get each other under half hp

    Also im not arguing to nerf core combat mechanics but rather nerf healing and mitigation on the tanky classes and give them their own damage avoidance mechanics, kinda like old wings.
    Edited by Raeyleigh on June 22, 2021 1:37AM
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Raeyleigh wrote: »
    Raeyleigh wrote: »
    Raeyleigh wrote: »
    Nerfing healing on most classes and creating more damage evasion mechanics would solve the problem.
    Alucardo wrote: »
    The only way they can kill someone is if it they all ult dump on the same person, but they can barely be scratched, so eventually they'll wear you down, even if it takes an hour.

    So do we like perma-kiting and prefer it be the only viable playstyle? "Kite until Ult" seems to be a popular alternative to the venerable Akaviri martial tradition of "Block until Ult", I don't really see that one is all that much more fun to play or play against than the other.

    Sorc mains will say "Kiting is more virtuous, to sit still in combat is lazy"

    DK mains will say "Blocking is more virtuous, to flee from combat is cowardly"

    The decisive difference here is that

    1. Movement based defense ala sorc & nb allows them to built squishier and not help perpetrate the tank meta

    2. If kiting mechanics are your defense instead of sheer numbers you can actually do something wrong and die for it. Especially warden, necro and werewolf have nothing they can mechanicly fail at. You have to punch through them with sheer numbers. Thereby they are perpetuating the tank meta

    3. People run around towers, trees and rocks only ever fighting back with an ult dump because it works. Shalks, blastbones and balorgh be praised. Other classes cannot turn around for an immediate 100-0 kill, unless of course the pursuer is a PvEler with 20k health.

    I might be lost in the conversation here, but you were saying healing should be nerfed because of "block as primary defense" specs, so that "evade as primary defense" becomes the preferred strategy for all offensive specs?

    Yes
    Unless of course you prefer the hilarious sight of 2 necros trying in vain to get each other under half hp

    Also im not arguing to nerf core combat mechanics but rather nerf healing and mitigation on the tanky classes and give them their own damage avoidance mechanics

    Would you be willing to share what class you main?

    I main melee sDK. I mostly play solo. I think the following should be removed from the game:

    - all purges, including snare removals
    - all sources of Expedition
    - all attacks with a range greater than 8m
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Sephyr
    Sephyr
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Raeyleigh wrote: »
    Raeyleigh wrote: »
    Raeyleigh wrote: »
    Nerfing healing on most classes and creating more damage evasion mechanics would solve the problem.
    Alucardo wrote: »
    The only way they can kill someone is if it they all ult dump on the same person, but they can barely be scratched, so eventually they'll wear you down, even if it takes an hour.

    So do we like perma-kiting and prefer it be the only viable playstyle? "Kite until Ult" seems to be a popular alternative to the venerable Akaviri martial tradition of "Block until Ult", I don't really see that one is all that much more fun to play or play against than the other.

    Sorc mains will say "Kiting is more virtuous, to sit still in combat is lazy"

    DK mains will say "Blocking is more virtuous, to flee from combat is cowardly"

    The decisive difference here is that

    1. Movement based defense ala sorc & nb allows them to built squishier and not help perpetrate the tank meta

    2. If kiting mechanics are your defense instead of sheer numbers you can actually do something wrong and die for it. Especially warden, necro and werewolf have nothing they can mechanicly fail at. You have to punch through them with sheer numbers. Thereby they are perpetuating the tank meta

    3. People run around towers, trees and rocks only ever fighting back with an ult dump because it works. Shalks, blastbones and balorgh be praised. Other classes cannot turn around for an immediate 100-0 kill, unless of course the pursuer is a PvEler with 20k health.

    I might be lost in the conversation here, but you were saying healing should be nerfed because of "block as primary defense" specs, so that "evade as primary defense" becomes the preferred strategy for all offensive specs?



    Unless of course you enjoy the hilarious sight of 2 necros trying in vain to get each other under half hp

    Shhh. They're putting the romance back in Necromancy. Let them love one another.
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    To be clear @Raeyleigh , I'm not opposed to more nerfs to healing, of all kinds, but I am very much in favor of DK receiving a stronger passive buff to Block Mitigation. Block is a very strong counter to the typical sNB combo, among other things, and it goes perfectly with our melee DoTs, being our strongest unique non-Ult offensive skills.

    Double Leap's damage and I can get down with this "sDK should be a green-colored sNB" idea

    I sort of think we should disregard Necro and Warden when we talk about global balance changes. Just because Necros and Wardens have been running the game as Tank-DDs doesn't mean blanket nerfs to Tank-DDs knocks these 2 classes out of the top and moves StamPlar and MagDK up in any tier lists. Extreme burst FrostDens are starting to show up for me this patch. Kitey, bursty, Glass-cannon-ish StamDens were very strong during the No Proc test, as were well-balanced 5 light MagCros. These classes can adapt - the older classes have a more narrow avenue for optimization, and I don't necessarily think anything is wrong with that, but, in my opinion, we should embrace the base game classes' ability to fulfill their unique power fantasy, or whatever we want to call it.

    Edited by Urzigurumash on June 22, 2021 3:27AM
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Raeyleigh
    Raeyleigh
    ✭✭✭
    Raeyleigh wrote: »
    Raeyleigh wrote: »
    Raeyleigh wrote: »
    Nerfing healing on most classes and creating more damage evasion mechanics would solve the problem.
    Alucardo wrote: »
    The only way they can kill someone is if it they all ult dump on the same person, but they can barely be scratched, so eventually they'll wear you down, even if it takes an hour.

    So do we like perma-kiting and prefer it be the only viable playstyle? "Kite until Ult" seems to be a popular alternative to the venerable Akaviri martial tradition of "Block until Ult", I don't really see that one is all that much more fun to play or play against than the other.

    Sorc mains will say "Kiting is more virtuous, to sit still in combat is lazy"

    DK mains will say "Blocking is more virtuous, to flee from combat is cowardly"

    The decisive difference here is that

    1. Movement based defense ala sorc & nb allows them to built squishier and not help perpetrate the tank meta

    2. If kiting mechanics are your defense instead of sheer numbers you can actually do something wrong and die for it. Especially warden, necro and werewolf have nothing they can mechanicly fail at. You have to punch through them with sheer numbers. Thereby they are perpetuating the tank meta

    3. People run around towers, trees and rocks only ever fighting back with an ult dump because it works. Shalks, blastbones and balorgh be praised. Other classes cannot turn around for an immediate 100-0 kill, unless of course the pursuer is a PvEler with 20k health.

    I might be lost in the conversation here, but you were saying healing should be nerfed because of "block as primary defense" specs, so that "evade as primary defense" becomes the preferred strategy for all offensive specs?

    Yes
    Unless of course you prefer the hilarious sight of 2 necros trying in vain to get each other under half hp

    Also im not arguing to nerf core combat mechanics but rather nerf healing and mitigation on the tanky classes and give them their own damage avoidance mechanics

    Would you be willing to share what class you main?

    I main melee sDK. I mostly play solo. I think the following should be removed from the game:

    - all purges, including snare removals
    - all sources of Expedition
    - all attacks with a range greater than 8m

    Stamsorc. Secondary i play magblade, magdk and stamplar. Ive played all other classes too, but i dont enjoy them enough to spend my time on them instead.

    On stamdk you have to stay in the thick of the fight to be effective, but because you have no mechanics that can mitigate damage for you you have to build tanky to not die all the time. Im sure you have also seen dks who cannot possibly kill one another, because they both build too tanky for that to happen. Its not nearly as bad as with necro and warden but its still a thing.
    For the most part sorcs, nb and to a lesser degree templar dont run into that issue and dont stalemate into one another that often because their damage USUALLY exceeds their healing+mitigation. Streak/bol, cloak & shade and purge make it possible.

    For example on my magdk i rather recently enjoyed mist form a lot before it was overnerfed because it allowed me to get away with building less tanky and blocking less. I would die if i made a mistake with the timing similiar to streak/cloak/shade but thats part of it. Now its almost as garbage as wings.
    Apparently stacking hp regen and procs with it was too op, so they removed the hp reg but the stam reg in it aswell? One patch later they nerf hp reg and procs almost to obscurity. Couldve just left the ability alone as it was in the first place.
    Sad times.
    Edited by Raeyleigh on June 22, 2021 3:44AM
  • WeylandLabs
    WeylandLabs
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you are vet player - let me just say back in our day " the good ol times" we had a thing called defile where it made it impossible to be a tank because you couldn't heal with 5 or 6 dots on you... you kind of died slow it was fun ! 😂

    Back when we had a thing called fun in a video game imagine that right ???

    That's what defile was for - people defile help create build diversity to stop lop sided meta's from happening. Unfortunaly the toxic player base of PvE and PvP that thinks ESO is real life and an Esport hated defile. And thus it was nerfed into the ground because of bias around PvE'ers getting defiled on dumb troll builds in PvP such as permablock tanks.

    Make defile great again and this problem stops !
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Raeyleigh wrote: »
    On stamdk you have to stay in the thick of the fight to be effective, but because you have no mechanics that can mitigate damage for you you have to build tanky to not die all the time. Im sure you have also seen dks who cannot possibly kill one another, because they both build too tanky for that to happen. Its not nearly as bad as with necro and warden but its still a thing.

    Yes it's always been part of Akaviri martial arts tradition to not engage each other 1v1 in open field, we know how that goes. For many patches the typical DK build could choose to sustain a fight as long as they wanted between Ults and Potions just as Sorcs and NBs could choose to leave a fight when they wanted. Sustaining in a tankish manner was the thing that StamDK was good at "between Wrecking Blows" compared to their more mobile, harder hitting but squishier cousins, StamSorc, the other Weapon Skill class. Right? A "Knight" Warrior class and a "Berserker" Warrior class, makes sense. I don't see why both classes should be optimized at the same level of mobility/damage versus tankiness/healing? I.e., why evasion should be universally preferable to facetanking? As long as things are otherwise globally balanced regarding mitigation vs damage vs healing I don't see that "Kite until Ult" should be universally preferable to "Block until Ult". Not that blockcasting heals was ever part of any new DK's "power fantasy" when they chose the class, but roll-dodging around really wasn't either, it's neither very Dragon nor Knight-like, to be honest. Block-casting has helped DK to stand out over the years.

    Anyhow so far to me it doesn't seem like excessive tankiness is an issue on any spec in this patch outside of a group with a Healer. Healer definitely seems to be the most powerful role in group PvP, from what I've experienced so far, in a way more than usual. About Defile - like others have said there's no equivalent debuff to Healing Done, an inverse of Mending like Defile is of Vitality - nor is there a debuff to Crit Healing like Enervation is to Crit Damage. Not that anybody cares about Enervation.

    Edited by Urzigurumash on June 22, 2021 5:12AM
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • ThePianist
    ThePianist
    ✭✭✭
    There are far worse pvp specs out there than a group of wardens lining up shalks and dawnbreaker combos.

    I play on my WW during low population hours. Nothing survives my WW, as a matter of fact, WW’s are banned in most dueling tournaments for a reason.

    But the most busted class I’ve ever come across or hate fighting 1v1’s against as a werewolf, are Tanky Magcros that run Malacath and Ironblood, Spell wall back bar. I don’t main a magcro but I think you can expunge/purge the snare penalty from Ironblood but still keep the 30% damage reduction buff. If you guys are looking for the next cheese pvp spec, this is it right here.


  • Fawn4287
    Fawn4287
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ThePianist wrote: »
    There are far worse pvp specs out there than a group of wardens lining up shalks and dawnbreaker combos.

    I play on my WW during low population hours. Nothing survives my WW, as a matter of fact, WW’s are banned in most dueling tournaments for a reason.

    But the most busted class I’ve ever come across or hate fighting 1v1’s against as a werewolf, are Tanky Magcros that run Malacath and Ironblood, Spell wall back bar. I don’t main a magcro but I think you can expunge/purge the snare penalty from Ironblood but still keep the 30% damage reduction buff. If you guys are looking for the next cheese pvp spec, this is it right here.


    You can’t purge the snare I’m pretty sure
  • Alucardo
    Alucardo
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ThePianist wrote: »
    I play on my WW during low population hours. Nothing survives my WW, as a matter of fact, WW’s are banned in most dueling tournaments for a reason.

    I have a 15.6k prismatic glyph on my weapon that fires off every 2 seconds. Just sayin'.
Sign In or Register to comment.