Surely ZOS don’t think the community can handle any more of this boring permanent tank meta?

Fawn4287

ESO PvP is a collection of mostly average players with huge egos carried by group numbers and cheesy builds but update after update is just painfully boring slow metas of groups of 35k health+ wardens in heavy armour with sword and board backbars absolutely dominating all facets of PvP. Turtling and waiting for an ult dump is mind numbingly easy and the game has just become join a group and play the same or die to it. The game’s numbers PvP numbers are lower than they’ve ever been and its not hard to see why, people are just so over this tank and spank meta and have moved on to more fun and interesting games. Weather its turtling with double ward stacking or just holding block spamming heals its just how 95% of people play because its just so easy and effective, the only other build you see is the occasional stamblade who spams cloak more than the average person swaps bars.

The easiest fixes are resource caps specifically for health (really any more than 30k does not belong in PvP, go in to an objective based BGs game and see how badly tanks ruin the experience in there), making block mitigation exponentially more expensive, making turtling far more difficult and driving a more roll, sprint and kite style of survival the meta again. make damage resource stacking do more damage, its absurd that a 38k health warden rocking malacath and balorgh has more burst potential than most other builds and nerfing the insane over performing playstyle of just stacking sheer numbers to win.

If there aren’t some serious changes to this ultra tank meta PvP game numbers will just continue to dwindle until there its tanks battling it out with siege being the only real source of damage in the game. Turtling is just beyond easy and warden and necro toolkits are disastrously overtuned for a healthy, fun PvP environment all these these need to be tuned asap.

Marcus_Aurelius

-Nerf Warden.
-Put caps for playstyles i don't like.

Can you guys just stop?

Noctus

Fawn4287 wrote: »

ESO PvP is a collection of mostly average players with huge egos carried by group numbers and cheesy builds but update after update is just painfully boring slow metas of groups of 35k health+ wardens in heavy armour with sword and board backbars absolutely dominating all facets of PvP. Turtling and waiting for an ult dump is mind numbingly easy and the game has just become join a group and play the same or die to it. The game’s numbers PvP numbers are lower than they’ve ever been and its not hard to see why, people are just so over this tank and spank meta and have moved on to more fun and interesting games. Weather its turtling with double ward stacking or just holding block spamming heals its just how 95% of people play because its just so easy and effective, the only other build you see is the occasional stamblade who spams cloak more than the average person swaps bars.

The easiest fixes are resource caps specifically for health (really any more than 30k does not belong in PvP, go in to an objective based BGs game and see how badly tanks ruin the experience in there), making block mitigation exponentially more expensive, making turtling far more difficult and driving a more roll, sprint and kite style of survival the meta again. make damage resource stacking do more damage, its absurd that a 38k health warden rocking malacath and balorgh has more burst potential than most other builds and nerfing the insane over performing playstyle of just stacking sheer numbers to win.

If there aren’t some serious changes to this ultra tank meta PvP game numbers will just continue to dwindle until there its tanks battling it out with siege being the only real source of damage in the game. Turtling is just beyond easy and warden and necro toolkits are disastrously overtuned for a healthy, fun PvP environment all these these need to be tuned asap.

i havent met any ppl that can survive for long this patch except for warden.

relentless_turnip

I wouldn't say it's a tank meta by any stretch of the imagination. People are wearing tanky sets, but everyone except wardens are killed fairly easily. I don't think the blanket statements are justified or particularly observant of the current state of PvP. This is a high burst meta IMO with wardens being the class that is still able to withstand it.
A lot of meta builds are wearing pariah with a damage set both magicka and stamina.

Firstmep

Where do I have to go for this tank meta? People are getting delete from 40k hp in like 2 seconds in bgs right now, definitely doesn't feel like a tank meta.

Alienoutlaw

this old chestnut again be easier to cut and paste responses from the last "tank meta" complaints

xylena_lazarow

Individuals are less tanky than they've been in years. The problem I see is still groups stacking cross heals, mediocre groups with zero chance of actually winning an objective will try to stall the fight indefinitely by running around walls or towers in a blob of heal purge spam, demanding large numbers of pugs to actually get rid of them. Very tedious.

divnyi

@xylena_lazarow is right.

Toughness is not an issue. Heals are the real trouble. And cross heals make it double.

I wouldn't mind flat 50% nerf on cross heals for PvP. And no, I will not stop playing healers because of this, actually might bring in the joy of playing healers because of the change.

Urzigurumash

@Fawn4287

What class / playstyle do you main?

Firstmep

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Individuals are less tanky than they've been in years. The problem I see is still groups stacking cross heals, mediocre groups with zero chance of actually winning an objective will try to stall the fight indefinitely by running around walls or towers in a blob of heal purge spam, demanding large numbers of pugs to actually get rid of them. Very tedious.

Well you don't have to chase them around rocks and towers and such.
Not everything that can be attacked has to die I cyro you know.
If you find vX-ers annoying then don't engage them.
The map is pretty big.

divnyi

That cyro towers near resources is so stupid if you ask me. They are more protected than the actual keeps. So many corners with several ways out. They are also indestructible, so you can't siege them properly.

xylena_lazarow

Firstmep wrote: »

Well you don't have to chase them around rocks and towers and such. Not everything that can be attacked has to die I cyro you know. If you find vX-ers annoying then don't engage them.

I don't engage them, but "ignore them or zerg them" is pretty lame PvP. And everything should die.

Greasytengu

The only super tanky build ive seen so far was some mist-form cheese build.

PVP will always favor those that invest into survivability, but so far I feel the proc changes have somewhat curbed the high damage tank builds that were running amok before.

Waffennacht

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Well you don't have to chase them around rocks and towers and such. Not everything that can be attacked has to die I cyro you know. If you find vX-ers annoying then don't engage them.

I don't engage them, but "ignore them or zerg them" is pretty lame PvP. And everything should die.

Any PvP in Cyrodill is lame pvp

Draevik

Fawn4287 wrote: »

ESO PvP is a collection of mostly average players with huge egos carried by group numbers and cheesy builds but update after update is just painfully boring slow metas of groups of 35k health+ wardens in heavy armour with sword and board backbars absolutely dominating all facets of PvP. Turtling and waiting for an ult dump is mind numbingly easy and the game has just become join a group and play the same or die to it. The game’s numbers PvP numbers are lower than they’ve ever been and its not hard to see why, people are just so over this tank and spank meta and have moved on to more fun and interesting games. Weather its turtling with double ward stacking or just holding block spamming heals its just how 95% of people play because its just so easy and effective, the only other build you see is the occasional stamblade who spams cloak more than the average person swaps bars.

The easiest fixes are resource caps specifically for health (really any more than 30k does not belong in PvP, go in to an objective based BGs game and see how badly tanks ruin the experience in there), making block mitigation exponentially more expensive, making turtling far more difficult and driving a more roll, sprint and kite style of survival the meta again. make damage resource stacking do more damage, its absurd that a 38k health warden rocking malacath and balorgh has more burst potential than most other builds and nerfing the insane over performing playstyle of just stacking sheer numbers to win.

If there aren’t some serious changes to this ultra tank meta PvP game numbers will just continue to dwindle until there its tanks battling it out with siege being the only real source of damage in the game. Turtling is just beyond easy and warden and necro toolkits are disastrously overtuned for a healthy, fun PvP environment all these these need to be tuned asap.

I don't know what game you are playing, But even when I did a super tank build - 46k armor, maj/min protection, 30k+ hp - I was getting rolled over like my character didn't exist.

If anything damage is astronomically overturned and it really shows when newer players get killed instantly by just 2 skills.

I went into a BG on a new SCro I made a while back but never played. I suck on this class, like no real idea of the best rotation, and yet I was destroying everyone in sight, partly probably because they were new to PVP, and secondly because my mediocre damage spec was too much for them to deal with. This just steers newer players away.

I for one hate the instant death, you have to literally build for every ounce of defense you can muster and hope you have enough damage to kill someone. Or build a one shot build and run away any time someone drops more than 10% of your life quickly.

Draevik

Greasytengu wrote: »

The only super tanky build ive seen so far was some mist-form cheese build.

PVP will always favor those that invest into survivability, but so far I feel the proc changes have somewhat curbed the high damage tank builds that were running amok before.

Hahaha I wonder if that was my test I did in BGs last night. I was literally crying laughing because people were chasing me around for minutes at a time trying to kill me. As soon as I left mist form though even with 40k mit I was deleted. So there is that.

NordSwordnBoard

I consider myself better at Mag than Stam, but I'm having a blast using medium Fortified Brass to be tanky, and I'm using a majority of medium over heavy on all my stam characters.

I made the analogy last night that we switched from a slow heavy tank WWI meta to a faster more mobile mechanized WWII meta. Out-maneuvering my opponent is working better than straight tanking my opponent, at least with what I'm using. I'm using race against time like streak lol.

xylena_lazarow

Waffennacht wrote: »

Any PvP in Cyrodill is lame pvp

Let me tell you what I think of BGs! Nah never mind. I wish both were better.

Abyssmol

All I read is - I'm a NB that want to kill you with one shot out of stealth. Why you think people are tankier now with more HP? Go to Cyrodiil and see for yourself. Group of two or three NB ganking one player. That's the new norm now.

Goregrinder

Waffennacht wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Well you don't have to chase them around rocks and towers and such. Not everything that can be attacked has to die I cyro you know. If you find vX-ers annoying then don't engage them.

I don't engage them, but "ignore them or zerg them" is pretty lame PvP. And everything should die.

Any PvP in Cyrodill is lame pvp

I don't know about that. BG's are fun and all, but it's completely structured outside of Elo/MMR. But I get the appeal of BG's, not everyone was built to 1vX, so BG's are there for them.

Xargas13

I've been playing BG non stop for the last two days, and this is one of those patches where I started to do well. I still meet some overpowered builds though, like one player for example, I spammed my stuff at him non stop, he healed like it was nothing, I even summoned 4 blastbones, he survived and continued on healing, it was insane, honestly with so much healing as he did, he should have been out of recourses, but he kept on and on. Forgot to stun him on blastbones ***, but still, it was OP. Take this as you will, but I don't think players should be able to go indefinitely healing like this.

Caps maybe needed in PvP, but not on health, real tanks will suffer and may go extinct, which means less players. I think they should draw the line on how tanky DPS character can be, because as of now, some players have 3 roles in one build, healer, tank and freaking DPS...

EDIT: forgot to mention block mitigation, as someone who blocks often on magicka char, my stam runs out pretty quickly, increased cost on that will mean fast death, and put magicka builds even in more tougher spot then it is now.

Afterip

Xargas13 wrote: »

I even summoned 4 blastbones, he survived and continued on healing, it was insane, honestly with so much healing as he did, he should have been out of recourses, but he kept on and on. Forgot to stun him on blastbones ***, but still, it was OP. Take this as you will, but I don't think players should be able to go indefinitely healing like this.

And this:

Xargas13 wrote: »

I think they should draw the line on how tanky DPS character can be, because as of now, some players have 3 roles in one build, healer, tank and freaking DPS...

And that say stamcro, how ironic...

Xargas13

Afterip wrote: »

Xargas13 wrote: »

I even summoned 4 blastbones, he survived and continued on healing, it was insane, honestly with so much healing as he did, he should have been out of recourses, but he kept on and on. Forgot to stun him on blastbones ***, but still, it was OP. Take this as you will, but I don't think players should be able to go indefinitely healing like this.

And this:

Xargas13 wrote: »

I think they should draw the line on how tanky DPS character can be, because as of now, some players have 3 roles in one build, healer, tank and freaking DPS...

And that say stamcro, how ironic...

Who said that I am stamcro? I'm magicka....

Afterip

Thats great. 9/10 all necros in pvp i saw is stamina, magica necro really rare spec for pvp, same for warden.

JanTanhide

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

-Nerf Warden.
-Put caps for playstyles i don't like.

Can you guys just stop?

IKR. It never ends. "I got beat by XXX please nerf into Oblion. Thanks!".

katorga

Wait, I thought it was a bomblade meta?

alberichtano

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

I consider myself better at Mag than Stam, but I'm having a blast using medium Fortified Brass to be tanky, and I'm using a majority of medium over heavy on all my stam characters.

I made the analogy last night that we switched from a slow heavy tank WWI meta to a faster more mobile mechanized WWII meta. Out-maneuvering my opponent is working better than straight tanking my opponent, at least with what I'm using. I'm using race against time like streak lol.

I find it interesting that medium is the best armor now. I mean, sure, heavy has a tad more resists, but with 7% more magic damage in all heavy is just ridiculous for a tank set. Not a fan of light taking equally heavy extra damage from weapon damage either, mind you. They could have done other drawbacks instead (eg less crit-chance for heavy sets), but more damage, to TANKS?

Raeyleigh

alberichtano wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

I consider myself better at Mag than Stam, but I'm having a blast using medium Fortified Brass to be tanky, and I'm using a majority of medium over heavy on all my stam characters.

I made the analogy last night that we switched from a slow heavy tank WWI meta to a faster more mobile mechanized WWII meta. Out-maneuvering my opponent is working better than straight tanking my opponent, at least with what I'm using. I'm using race against time like streak lol.

I find it interesting that medium is the best armor now. I mean, sure, heavy has a tad more resists, but with 7% more magic damage in all heavy is just ridiculous for a tank set. Not a fan of light taking equally heavy extra damage from weapon damage either, mind you. They could have done other drawbacks instead (eg less crit-chance for heavy sets), but more damage, to TANKS?

The best combination for both stam and mag is 3/4 heavy + 3/4 med/light currently.
Gankblade, shuffle and dampen magic are the only exceptions really.

The core of the issue is that players prefer not to get oneshot and they will tank up until they dont.
You dont really see that issue with classes like stamnb, stamsorc or stamplar because they have way more dmg than healing. Nerfing healing on most classes and creating more damage evasion mechanics would solve the problem.

Alucardo

Firstmep wrote: »

Where do I have to go for this tank meta? People are getting delete from 40k hp in like 2 seconds in bgs right now, definitely doesn't feel like a tank meta.

Seems to be mostly in Cyro. I've walked away from so many fights because groups are made up of perma blocking DKs and Wardens. The only way they can kill someone is if it they all ult dump on the same person, but they can barely be scratched, so eventually they'll wear you down, even if it takes an hour.
Having said that, I did a few BGs and noticed people could actually die, so that was a nice surprise.

Whatever this meta in Cyro is right now, it's boring.

Urzigurumash

Raeyleigh wrote: »

Nerfing healing on most classes and creating more damage evasion mechanics would solve the problem.

Alucardo wrote: »

The only way they can kill someone is if it they all ult dump on the same person, but they can barely be scratched, so eventually they'll wear you down, even if it takes an hour.

So do we like perma-kiting and prefer it be the only viable playstyle? "Kite until Ult" seems to be a popular alternative to the venerable Akaviri martial tradition of "Block until Ult", I don't really see that one is all that much more fun to play or play against than the other.

Sorc mains will say "Kiting is more virtuous, to sit still in combat is lazy"

DK mains will say "Blocking is more virtuous, to flee from combat is cowardly"

Alucardo

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Raeyleigh wrote: »

Nerfing healing on most classes and creating more damage evasion mechanics would solve the problem.

Alucardo wrote: »

The only way they can kill someone is if it they all ult dump on the same person, but they can barely be scratched, so eventually they'll wear you down, even if it takes an hour.

So do we like perma-kiting and prefer it be the only viable playstyle? "Kite until Ult" seems to be a popular alternative to the venerable Akaviri martial tradition of "Block until Ult", I don't really see that one is all that much more fun to play or play against than the other.

Sorc mains will say "Kiting is more virtuous, to sit still in combat is lazy"

DK mains will say "Blocking is more virtuous, to flee from combat is cowardly"

Sorcs can kite all they like. Their streak increases in cost, my gap closer doesn't. I'll just keep chasing until they run out of magicka.