Questions about god head, Amaranth and CHIM

dragonflame

What is a full power of a CHIM. Shouldn't they be all power and all knowing since they can been reality to there will. Since a chim can alter fate and reality can they rewrite time to fit thier desires. Because they acknowledge that they don't exist and they are a dream but they can control the dream. For example Vivec and Talos

What exact is an Amaranth I read that is a person that became a god head but had to go through CHIM. So they would fall asleep( or simply escape from the dream)and become a new dreamer. Can an Amaranth manifest in there own dreamscape or would they becomes an unconscious dreamer like the one in the elder scrolls

Do you think the aedra and the daedra know that they arent real and they are just playing a part as an actor on a stage. Also could the daedra and aedra becomes an amaranth or a new dreamer.

Last question what is the god head and does they play an important part in the shaping on nern and mundus.

SirAndy

"Gods" in ESO are not your typical "all knowing, all powerful" entities. You are equating them (falsely) to the real life notion of a god.

Rather, ESO gods are somewhat normal beings that have special powers that set them apart from the general population and they are exploiting those powers to make themselves "god like".

That means they still have many limitations ...

dragonflame

SirAndy wrote: »

"Gods" in ESO are not your typical "all knowing, all powerful" entities. You are equating them (falsely) to the real life notion of a god.

Rather, ESO gods are somewhat normal beings that have special powers that set them apart from the general population and they are exploiting those powers to make themselves "god like".

That means they still have many limitations ...

Thanks for the answer. I understand that the aedra and daedra aren't all power and knowing. I was wondering about transcendence forms not necessarily gods. Such as Chims and Amaranth, zero summing. Etc.

Aramithius

dragonflame wrote: »

What is a full power of a CHIM. Shouldn't they be all power and all knowing since they can been reality to there will.

A CHIMster could potentially do that. But why would they want to?

Part of the central realisation of CHIM is realising that the universe and the CHIMster are the same thing. Therefore everything in the universe is part of you. In changing the universe, you are changing yourself. And how many people really, truly, want to change? Look at how often people fail at things like quitting smoking and losing weight for how challenging self-change is.

We also have indications that CHIM is something of a precarious state, if we are to believe some indications from the 36 Lessons of Vivec:

36 Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 11 wrote:

Do not abuse your powers or they will lead you astray. They will leave you like rebellious daughters. They will lose their virtue. They will become lost and resentful and finally become pregnant with the seed of folly. Soon you will be the grandparent of a broken state. You will be mocked. It will fall apart like a stone that recalls that it is really water.

That being the case, is that something you would want to risk, even if you could do anything?

Those are all reasons as to why those who (allegedly) have CHIM do so little with it. It's hard, and its risky.

dragonflame wrote: »

What exact is an Amaranth I read that is a person that became a god head but had to go through CHIM.

Not quite. The only real example of an Amaranth we have (Anu, as per MK's revelation in the Hunt the Amaranth threads) did not attain CHIM to do so. It seems to just involve a level of sensory deprivation. CHIM will give you revelations about the nature of the Aurbis that may help with that or cause you to seek Amaranth, but it's not a necessary step, from what we can tell.

dragonflame wrote: »

Can an Amaranth manifest in there own dreamscape or would they becomes an unconscious dreamer like the one in the elder scrolls

Again using Anu as an example, in the Anuad he becomes the Amaranth after he "hid himself in the sun and slept." He still does things in the story after that point, indicating that the Aurbis' dreamer can act (after a fashion) in their own dream. If it's possible for Anu, it's possible for others.

dragonflame wrote: »

Do you think the aedra and the daedra know that they arent real and they are just playing a part as an actor on a stage.

We have hints that the Daedra at least are aware of CHIM, but will not likely attain it. However, there's no hint that they know about the Amaranth. With the Aedra, we have some hints from an unlicensed source (ex-dev commentary) that Lorkhan purposefully failed at CHIM.

dragonflame wrote: »

Also could the daedra and aedra becomes an amaranth or a new dreamer.

I think it's unlikely, but have little to back that up beyond the idea that both Aedra and Daedra are not really in a position to experience the sensory deprivation necessary for Amaranth. There are hints in the (unlicensed) Loveletter from the Fifth Era that Amaranth is going "through" subgradience (going from god to mortal) and out the other side. As the Aedra are gods, they can't make that leap on their own, I would imagine. They certainly can't attain CHIM, as CHIM is overcoming boundaries, and the gods are not bounded.

dragonflame wrote: »

Last question what is the god head and does they play an important part in the shaping on nern and mundus.

The godhead is the being that is dreaming the current Elder Scrolls universe. They don't play an active role in the Aurbis, but their subconscious seems to. Things like repeating mythic patterns and constant conflict give us a certain level of insight into what the godhead (Anu) is thinking.

I go into fuller explanations of these things here, by the way, both as podcast episodes and articles to read
CHIM: http://writteninuncertainty.com/podcast/chim/
Amaranth and the godhead: http://writteninuncertainty.com/podcast/amaranth-godhead/

dragonflame

Aramithius wrote: »

dragonflame wrote: »

What is a full power of a CHIM. Shouldn't they be all power and all knowing since they can been reality to there will.

A CHIMster could potentially do that. But why would they want to?

Part of the central realisation of CHIM is realising that the universe and the CHIMster are the same thing. Therefore everything in the universe is part of you. In changing the universe, you are changing yourself. And how many people really, truly, want to change? Look at how often people fail at things like quitting smoking and losing weight for how challenging self-change is.

We also have indications that CHIM is something of a precarious state, if we are to believe some indications from the 36 Lessons of Vivec:

36 Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 11 wrote:

Do not abuse your powers or they will lead you astray. They will leave you like rebellious daughters. They will lose their virtue. They will become lost and resentful and finally become pregnant with the seed of folly. Soon you will be the grandparent of a broken state. You will be mocked. It will fall apart like a stone that recalls that it is really water.

That being the case, is that something you would want to risk, even if you could do anything?

Those are all reasons as to why those who (allegedly) have CHIM do so little with it. It's hard, and its risky.

dragonflame wrote: »

What exact is an Amaranth I read that is a person that became a god head but had to go through CHIM.

Not quite. The only real example of an Amaranth we have (Anu, as per MK's revelation in the Hunt the Amaranth threads) did not attain CHIM to do so. It seems to just involve a level of sensory deprivation. CHIM will give you revelations about the nature of the Aurbis that may help with that or cause you to seek Amaranth, but it's not a necessary step, from what we can tell.

dragonflame wrote: »

Can an Amaranth manifest in there own dreamscape or would they becomes an unconscious dreamer like the one in the elder scrolls

Again using Anu as an example, in the Anuad he becomes the Amaranth after he "hid himself in the sun and slept." He still does things in the story after that point, indicating that the Aurbis' dreamer can act (after a fashion) in their own dream. If it's possible for Anu, it's possible for others.

dragonflame wrote: »

Do you think the aedra and the daedra know that they arent real and they are just playing a part as an actor on a stage.

We have hints that the Daedra at least are aware of CHIM, but will not likely attain it. However, there's no hint that they know about the Amaranth. With the Aedra, we have some hints from an unlicensed source (ex-dev commentary) that Lorkhan purposefully failed at CHIM.

dragonflame wrote: »

Also could the daedra and aedra becomes an amaranth or a new dreamer.

I think it's unlikely, but have little to back that up beyond the idea that both Aedra and Daedra are not really in a position to experience the sensory deprivation necessary for Amaranth. There are hints in the (unlicensed) Loveletter from the Fifth Era that Amaranth is going "through" subgradience (going from god to mortal) and out the other side. As the Aedra are gods, they can't make that leap on their own, I would imagine. They certainly can't attain CHIM, as CHIM is overcoming boundaries, and the gods are not bounded.

dragonflame wrote: »

Last question what is the god head and does they play an important part in the shaping on nern and mundus.

The godhead is the being that is dreaming the current Elder Scrolls universe. They don't play an active role in the Aurbis, but their subconscious seems to. Things like repeating mythic patterns and constant conflict give us a certain level of insight into what the godhead (Anu) is thinking.

I go into fuller explanations of these things here, by the way, both as podcast episodes and articles to read
CHIM: http://writteninuncertainty.com/podcast/chim/
Amaranth and the godhead: http://writteninuncertainty.com/podcast/amaranth-godhead/

Thanks for the clarification for the questions. I didn't know that there was so much lore behind these terms.

Aramithius

dragonflame wrote: »

Thanks for the clarification for the questions. I didn't know that there was so much lore behind these terms.

Not a problem. I should add the caveat that much of the lore behind this stuff is vague and metaphorical, or reliant on texts that aren't part of the franchise, from an IP ownership perspective. If strict canon bothers you, I'd ignore most of these concepts altogether, because what answers we do have are as dependent on unofficial texts and fan interpretations.

I also realised I may have mis-spoken when it comes to the Daedra not being too aware of them. There is a hint that Hermaeus Mora may be aware of the godhead (and therefore possibly Amaranth) to some degree, because the word crops up in the Black Books. However, it's in a phrase that doesn't tell us too much. It's this:

Black Book: Waking Dreams wrote:

Waking Dreams of A Starless Sky
by Bilius Felcrex

The eyes, once bleached by falling stars of utmost revelation, will forever see the faint insight drawn by the overwhelming question, as only the True Enquiry shapes the edge of thought. The rest is vulgar fiction, attempts to impose order on the consensus mantlings of an uncaring godhead. First,

...and that's all we have. The wording around "waking dreams" could tie in with the idea of the dreaming godhead as a thing, but that's far from certain.

tl;dr: Hermaeus Mora may know about this stuff, but we can't be sure.

colossalvoids

I'd say CHIM is more of a realisation and after that a tool to pierce through the Dream.

On a Godhead I'd imagine you can obviously manifest yourself, but possession of chim and your being as a Godhead it won't happen, for me personally it's a bit close to mythological concepts of creation, example being "gods created the earth from their dust, mountains of ribs, clouds of their brains and rivers from their blood" kind of deal, but obviously metaphorical, as that's their Dream and they're already manifested in everything per se. I see it kind of as Crowley's "do what thou wilt" thing, possession of the True Will cuts the possibility to use it in a harmful (intrusive) way.

dragonflame

colossalvoids wrote: »

I'd say CHIM is more of a realisation and after that a tool to pierce through the Dream.

On a Godhead I'd imagine you can obviously manifest yourself, but possession of chim and your being as a Godhead it won't happen, for me personally it's a bit close to mythological concepts of creation, example being "gods created the earth from their dust, mountains of ribs, clouds of their brains and rivers from their blood" kind of deal, but obviously metaphorical, as that's their Dream and they're already manifested in everything per se. I see it kind of as Crowley's "do what thou wilt" thing, possession of the True Will cuts the possibility to use it in a harmful (intrusive) way.

That is an interesting take on the godhead. I haven't thought of approaching the God head from that way of thinking.

PrayingSeraph

Is the Godhead actually canon and referenced in canon material or is it strictly MK fanon?

Aramithius

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Is the Godhead actually canon and referenced in canon material or is it strictly MK fanon?

The word "godhead" in licensed material appears most when talking about the Tribunal, or the line "Eat or bleed dry the gone-forlorn and gain that small will that led them to walk the path of Godhead at the first. Spit out or burn to the side that which made them delay. Know them as the Mnemoli" from the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes. Perhaps the most obvious is in the Black Books, which has this:

Black Book: Waking Dreams wrote:

The eyes, once bleached by falling stars of utmost revelation, will forever see the faint insight drawn by the overwhelming question, as only the True Enquiry shapes the edge of thought. The rest is vulgar fiction, attempts to impose order on the consensus mantlings of an uncaring godhead. First,

It appears, but it doesn't really have the connotations of being the being that is dreaming the ES universe. That can be inferred from things like the source above, and lines like "the waking world is the amnesia of dream" (ie the waking world has forgotten that it's the godhead's dream) in the 36 Lessons.

The only time "the godhead" is talked about in in-universe material specifically in the sense that it's usually used by fans is in the unlicensed text Vehk's Teaching.

A related concept, the Amaranth, is not clarified anywhere in licensed material, but appears in 2 places; the quest "The Waking Dreamer" in Reaper's March gives you the item "Discourses Amaranthine" upon completion, and the 37th Lesson of Vivec ends with the words "The Worldling of the Words is AMARANTH".

To me, all that adds up to an acknowledgement of the godhead as a possible concept within licensed material, but one that has very little definition without reference to MK's unlicensed stuff and forum posts, as well as the Amaranth Hunt.

xv1_me

Totally misread the title of this post :-)

dragonflame

xv1_me wrote: »

Totally misread the title of this post :-)

What do you mean XD?

Aramithius

I imagine there was another o in "god head".

dragonflame

Aramithius wrote: »

I imagine there was another o in "god head".

Sooo good head lol

Jaimeh

Aramithius wrote: »

Not quite. The only real example of an Amaranth we have (Anu, as per MK's revelation in the Hunt the Amaranth threads) did not attain CHIM to do so. It seems to just involve a level of sensory deprivation. CHIM will give you revelations about the nature of the Aurbis that may help with that or cause you to seek Amaranth, but it's not a necessary step, from what we can tell.

Again using Anu as an example, in the Anuad he becomes the Amaranth after he "hid himself in the sun and slept." He still does things in the story after that point, indicating that the Aurbis' dreamer can act (after a fashion) in their own dream. If it's possible for Anu, it's possible for others.

The godhead is the being that is dreaming the current Elder Scrolls universe. They don't play an active role in the Aurbis, but their subconscious seems to. Things like repeating mythic patterns and constant conflict give us a certain level of insight into what the godhead (Anu) is thinking.

@Aramithius If in the original godhead's dream, Anu becomes an Amaranth, and then dreams of their own world, assuming they can participate in it, which dreamer's world is then the one we see in TES?

dragonflame

@Aramithius didn't vivec dissapeared during the oblivion crisis. Any theory or assumption of what happened to him?

Aramithius

Jaimeh wrote: »

@Aramithius If in the original godhead's dream, Anu becomes an Amaranth, and then dreams of their own world, assuming they can participate in it, which dreamer's world is then the one we see in TES?

If you follow the Anuad, it's in Anu's dream:

Annotated/Children's Anuad wrote:

Nir became pregnant, but before she gave birth, Padomay returned, professing his love for Nir. She told him that she loved only Anu, and Padomay beat her in rage. Anu returned, fought Padomay, and cast him outside Time. Nir gave birth to Creation, but died from her injuries soon after. Anu, grieving, hid himself in the sun and slept.

Meanwhile, life sprang up on the twelve worlds of creation and flourished. After many ages, Padomay was able to return to Time. He saw Creation and hated it. He swung his sword, shattering the twelve worlds in their alignment. Anu awoke, and fought Padomay again. The long and furious battle ended with Anu the victor. He cast aside the body of his brother, who he believed was dead, and attempted to save Creation by forming the remnants of the 12 worlds into one -- Nirn, the world of Tamriel. As he was doing so, Padomay struck him through the chest with one last blow. Anu grappled with his brother and pulled them both outside of Time forever.

(emphasis added)

From this passage, we have the original 12 worlds, that Nir gave birth to in the original world. From the Hunt the Amaranth threads, I seem to remember that Anu hiding in the sun is the moment of the Amaranth. Everything after that is Anu's dream, which is the Aurbis.

Notice that we never get to see what's in the Twelve Worlds as such, but Anu essentially makes a new creation that become Nirn. It's possible that some ideas from the previous worlds come over (the Ehlnofey and the Hist in the Anuad narrative), but it's essentially the seed of a new universe.

Or, at least, that's one interpretation. I've also seen the Twelve Worlds as previous kalpas, without needing to invoke ideas of the Amaranth at all.

dragonflame wrote: »

@Aramithius didn't vivec dissapeared during the oblivion crisis. Any theory or assumption of what happened to him?

Ze either disappeared a few years before the Crisis when the Nerevarine slew hir, or the rumour was that ze was taken by Daedra. I think the Nerevarine idea is more likely, but not confirmed.

Sinlar

This one suspects that the metamorphosis provided by the enantiomorph process and sub-gradient reflections, draws a bit closer to the heart of the question.

This one also enjoys your writing Aramithius.

Aramithius

Sinlar wrote: »

This one suspects that the metamorphosis provided by the enantiomorph process and sub-gradient reflections, draws a bit closer to the heart of the question.

I'm not too sure there. The enantiomorph is a re-iteration of the original Anu-Padomay-Nir interaction, that was burned into the fabric of the Aurbis. However, I don't necessarily think it's necessarily something that has to happen for the Amaranth. The 36 Lessons of Vivec suggest that being an Observer in an enantiomorph is possibly something that helps or is part off the understanding that leads to CHIM, but Amaranth is a different kettle of fish.

Sinlar wrote: »

This one also enjoys your writing Aramithius.

Thanks! If you want more of it, check the link to Written in Uncertainty in my signature.

Sinlar

Aramithius wrote: »

Sinlar wrote: »

This one suspects that the metamorphosis provided by the enantiomorph process and sub-gradient reflections, draws a bit closer to the heart of the question.

I'm not too sure there. The enantiomorph is a re-iteration of the original Anu-Padomay-Nir interaction, that was burned into the fabric of the Aurbis. However, I don't necessarily think it's necessarily something that has to happen for the Amaranth. The 36 Lessons of Vivec suggest that being an Observer in an enantiomorph is possibly something that helps or is part off the understanding that leads to CHIM, but Amaranth is a different kettle of fish.

Sinlar wrote: »

This one also enjoys your writing Aramithius.

Thanks! If you want more of it, check the link to Written in Uncertainty in my signature.

Hrrrmm, now that this one looks at it, stating it as the metamorphosis through the sub-gradient reflections makes more sense.

“You in the Fourth Era have already witnessed many of the attempts at reaching the final subgradient of all AE, that state that exists beyond mortal death. The Numidium. The Endeavor. The Prolix Tower. CHIM. The Enantiomorph. The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man.”

Then from that point.

“Amaranth, Everlasting Hypnogogic” Half asleep, half awake. Awake enough to acknowledge it’s own existence but asleep enough to dream his own tower."

It does seem that one would need the former to achieve the latter.

Túrin_Vidsmidr

Aramithius wrote: »

dragonflame wrote: »

What is a full power of a CHIM. Shouldn't they be all power and all knowing since they can been reality to there will.

A CHIMster could potentially do that. But why would they want to?

This, and in addition I think they sooner or later realize they are still not completely free, at least Vivec did.
IIRC he even talks about this: you may damage your reality beyond repair and lose yourself eventually.
Perhaps it is the fail-safe of the Dream itself to balance things.
The Godhead will simply get rid of you this way or that if you were to over abuse your CHIM powers and would cause so drastic events which could maybe rouse it from the "sleep".
So our player characters, Vivec, Talos, and Reman may make careful retroactive changes to lanscape and history but they remember and fear the fate of Pelinal Whitestrake who went too far and had been stopped. "Like when the dream no longer needs its dreamer."