Group Composition Guide

Crown

Read here: https://darkelves.com/group-composition/

Does your group consistently lose fights in Cyrodiil? Do you seem to get ROFL stomped every time you come up to another organized group? It may be the leader, it may be a huge difference in skill, it may be that their group composition and builds are much better aligned than yours, or it may be a combination of all those and more.

Group composition is one of the biggest challenges that leaders and strategists face. Many groups have different players in different raids, and expecting strict adherence to build details can be challenging. Rather than provide detailed gear, set, skill, and champion point specifications that are subject to change more often than I want to update these guides, I’m going to provide a high level overview of how I look at group composition strategies with a few examples in the hope of helping you better strategize your own groups.

This is meant to help groups who are trying to figure out how to plan their compositions and builds, or solo/small players who want to join groups of 12 and be able to perform for the group rather than for their own numbers or kill records. If your group already has a strategist building a composition for you, this may serve as reference material to them, though keep in mind that your strategist knows your group (leader’s, damage dealers’, healers’, and supports’ preferences, styles, and capabilities) better than I do, and will be better able to set up builds that best compliment their capabilities and styles.

Read here: https://darkelves.com/group-composition/

L_Nici

Never get talked into a specific Skill or Set, if a group tries to do that, dump it and search one that can adjust according to what the individuals want. The real challenge is to make the best out of what you get.
Just forcing specific Sets und Skills degrades you to a Ballgroup, that mindlessly follows one person that tells them what to do.

nukk3r

L_Nici wrote: »

Never get talked into a specific Skill or Set, if a group tries to do that, dump it and search one that can adjust according to what the individuals want. The real challenge is to make the best out of what you get.
Just forcing specific Sets und Skills degrades you to a Ballgroup, that mindlessly follows one person that tells them what to do.

As an alternative you can wear whatever you want, chase the tower trolls, stack on flags without blocking and get farmed inside keeps for hours
Please stop shaming other people for the way they play.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

L_Nici wrote: »

Never get talked into a specific Skill or Set, if a group tries to do that, dump it and search one that can adjust according to what the individuals want. The real challenge is to make the best out of what you get.
Just forcing specific Sets und Skills degrades you to a Ballgroup, that mindlessly follows one person that tells them what to do.

If you should 'never get talked into a specific skill' then you shouldn't be playing in a group. Make your own solo build and play solo or zerg. Part of being a group is playing as a team and working together to achieve good results. This means you need to be willing to compromise.
I agree that people shouldn't just blindly put on a skillbar without questioning and understanding it but in most situations if you aren't willing to argue a point as to why you want to use a particular skill and the situation it will be useful and then be able to listen to the reasoning why another skill is requested you aren't going to understand the group gameplay.

Crown

L_Nici wrote: »

Never get talked into a specific Skill or Set, if a group tries to do that, dump it and search one that can adjust according to what the individuals want.

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO answered this point well. If you don't run specific skills or sets, then you're not part of a min/max organized group. There are many pick-up groups out there where I'm sure you'll have fun playing how you want, though the min/max groups will beat you every time with similar numbers.

My goal is to have fun with friends winning fights and making AP. If your goal is to have fun otherwise and not care about being competitive in group fighting, then I'm happy for you that you're easier to please than I am! I don't care about dueling (I'm a horrible duelist) or PvE - we all have our preferences and the beauty of the game is that you can have fun in many different ways.

L_Nici wrote: »

The real challenge is to make the best out of what you get.

That is a challenge greater than I want to take on most of the time. Leading PuGs (which I do about once a month when the mood strikes) is usually frustrating after a few minutes when people don't follow as strictly as I'm used to with an organized raid group.

In min/max groups everyone's roles and responsibilities are known, we've optimized our sets, skills, timings, and awareness of each other, and most of what we do can be replicated fight to fight with a high degree of success. The real challenge is fighting and beating groups that play in this style as well.

L_Nici wrote: »

Just forcing specific Sets und Skills degrades you to a Ballgroup, that mindlessly follows one person that tells them what to do.

The group leader doesn't tell them what to do, the leader calls where the focus should be and the type of activity/timing (engage / damage / extricate / recover / hold), then they use their judgement and skill to play to the best of their ability based on the situation.

As a leader, by knowing my players' builds, bars, perspectives, and tendencies, I know how much damage and healing they can output. By understanding my opponents and their leader's style, I can predict what they're going to do and try to make the best decision on how we engage. By understanding my raid's skill levels and what they're capable of, I know how far I can push their boundaries to help them grow and improve as players while winning as many fights or farming as much AP as we can. There's a LOT more to being a leader than you may believe.

Amottica

While I have not raided in ESO (PvE) and in Cyrodiil I have just run with small groups of guild members, in other MMORPGs a well-organized group always performs better. That starts with a solid leader who is not about themselves and includes groups willing to run classes, skills, and sets that benefit the group. It is good to share such insight.

Of course, as has also been pointed out in this thread, one can choose to raid with groups that are less structured in PvE and PvP. People can and should make their own choices. Playing more casually is very acceptable and represents the majority of the player base in most MMORPGs.

ResidentContrarian

Great now please direct and teach AD that in PC NA Greyhost so they don't get their entire faction wiped by 8-12 ungrouped people in less than 30 seconds and then say it's "population" or a "small man getting zerged" on the forums.

They might actually be able to make someone sweat for once...

Thraben

Crown wrote: »

Read here: https://darkelves.com/group-composition/

Does your group consistently lose fights in Cyrodiil? Do you seem to get ROFL stomped every time you come up to another organized group? It may be the leader, it may be a huge difference in skill, it may be that their group composition and builds are much better aligned than yours, or it may be a combination of all those and more.

Group composition is one of the biggest challenges that leaders and strategists face. Many groups have different players in different raids, and expecting strict adherence to build details can be challenging. Rather than provide detailed gear, set, skill, and champion point specifications that are subject to change more often than I want to update these guides, I’m going to provide a high level overview of how I look at group composition strategies with a few examples in the hope of helping you better strategize your own groups.

This is meant to help groups who are trying to figure out how to plan their compositions and builds, or solo/small players who want to join groups of 12 and be able to perform for the group rather than for their own numbers or kill records. If your group already has a strategist building a composition for you, this may serve as reference material to them, though keep in mind that your strategist knows your group (leader’s, damage dealers’, healers’, and supports’ preferences, styles, and capabilities) better than I do, and will be better able to set up builds that best compliment their capabilities and styles.

Read here: https://darkelves.com/group-composition/

1) Please remember that Spectre's Eye can be replaced by Gossamer; that being said, since the patch the "bomber's arms race" has heavily swung in favor of the bombblades, which is why one either needs a min health requirement or an assortment of sets the counter it (Gossamer, Brands of the Imperium, Critical Riposte).

2) Beginner groups should have more wardens instead of Bombblades. Make it 3/1. This is because you can learn how to attack with a Warden in 1 night, while you need months to master a good group bombblade.

3) A DPS DK is a rather bizarre choice.

4) You failed to optimize synergies even though it is the easiest way to reach enough burst damage in such a group.

Crown

Thraben wrote: »

Please remember that Spectre's Eye can be replaced by Gossamer

It can’t actually. I noted in the healer section that Gossamer is only applied for 1 second, and only after missing health has been healed. The first tick of damage, often a graveyard or tether can hit for 15k+ and chunk half your health. Combine that with a proxy or three that are perfectly timed, and all that damage hits before Gossamer can proc. Gossamer can be great if opponents aren’t perfectly timed, and it still takes at least two in group and usually three to get full group coverage.

Thraben wrote: »

one either needs a min health requirement or an assortment of sets the counter it (Gossamer, Brands of the Imperium, Critical Riposte).

A good point about how some groups could build if they want to do so. In my sample with Major Evasion on everyone, the additional mitigation tools aren’t needed, and that makes the roles and responsibilities cleaner. Give me a set of 11 players in exactly that gear, have them run my bars, CP, and follow directions, and we’d probably win against anything except other min/max organized groups or 3-4 times our numbers under siege.

Thraben wrote: »

Beginner groups should have more wardens instead of Bombblades. Make it 3/1. This is because you can learn how to attack with a Warden in 1 night, while you need months to master a good group bombblade.

I don’t see the skill gap that rigid. I’ve taught many players to group bomb blade in an hour, and they’ve performed well.

Thraben wrote: »

A DPS DK is a rather bizarre choice.

Run one like that in a group comp like mine and you’ll change your mind.

Thraben wrote: »

You failed to optimize synergies even though it is the easiest way to reach enough burst damage in such a group.

I didn’t bring up synergies or jewelry traits at all. I’ll add a note in the DD and healer sections later today. Thanks!

YandereGirlfriend

Gossamer definitely needs a buff to be at least 2 seconds and/or to apply on overhealing. I think that you can get by with only two wearers if they're both high-APM players and you can almost swing it with only one if the healer is godlike on their own and has some help from healing proc sets. As you say though, you'll still always be vulnerable to the initial burst of an enemy group, which is highly annoying.

I have never actually seen Prayer Shawl in use or ever talked about. It is my understanding that the cooldown is placed on the set itself rather than on the targets, which limits its totally number of simultaneous shields to 3, which won't work in a large group. However, if that understanding is incorrect, I would love to learn something new!

Crown

@YandereGirlfriend Remember that procs aren't supposed to proc procs. Hiti has historically been the (bug) exception to this. If a group runs very tight, and Hiti still procs procs (not sure, haven't tested this patch), then two Gossamer is conceivable. In our testing the the two highest APM players would still only have a 16-18% uptime over the whole raid while in combat, and a third Gossamer brought that to about 22% (all subjective due to what/where/how we're fighting).

For groups that are not going to test, analyze logs, and work their composition to near-perfection, I'm still in favour of Spectre's. Again, please do keep in mind that this is a suggestion that will help the most players and groups.

Regarding Prayer, it's a bit of a controversial set due to also having some issues in not working as intended. When working as intended, you are correct that the 3 simultaneous shields makes is less valuable, and applying on overheal tends to make it only excel for the few seconds prior to being bombed or when standing in siege while healers are spamming heals (really good for that part). In that scenario, It's reasonable in a pug or non-organized group (if there are set slots available). When not working as intended and you can proc it on multiple targets every 2 seconds (26k mitigation every 2 seconds), it's more powerful. I believe that they should change the proc condition to be per player rather than on the healer, and increase it to perhaps every 4 seconds.

Here's effective healing in a fight with Prayer Shawl on my Plar (test raid):


Here's raw healing in a fight with Prayer Shawl on my Plar (test raid):


Note that my casting percentages are terrible here, due to wanting to get certain test scenarios / use cases compelte. I should have a LOT more Living Dark, Cleanse, and Repentance.

The mitigation is there from Prayer Shawl, it just isn't mitigating damage that will save people from death - it's absorbing damage that would otherwise likely have been healed up by RR or other HoTs in an organized group with solid players. It's always challenging to make public recommendations when they're going to both organized and pug groups..

YandereGirlfriend

Interesting, interesting.

There are a few more sets that also proc Gossamer that I know of but I don't want to mention them publicly and risk calling down the nerf bat.

I have always been curious about incorporating shielding sets into a raid but each one of them seems to contain a fatal flaw that really limits their utility to a 12-person raid:

• Brands of the Imperium - limited to 6 targets means that you need two wearers and even then I'm not sure if the sets are smart enough to give everyone a shield or if it will instead double-up on some players and leave others without a shield.
• Combat Physician - Probably the best shielding set since it actually can apply to all members of a group but the shield size is quite modest.
• Prayer Shawl - Mentioned previously, limited to 3 group members, also a modest shield. Can proc on the same player several times in a row, which is unfortunate.
• Lunar Bastion - static AoE is not useful for a fluid combat situation though it at least does apply to a full raid.
• Haven of Ursus - difficult proc condition and requires a static synergy to be activated, also only applies to half of a group with the same uncertainties in terms of targeting as Brands.
• Foolkiller - would actually be quite nice if the target cap were higher but requires three wearers to cover a full group, also has target uncertainty.

Crown

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Brands of the Imperium - limited to 6 targets means that you need two wearers and even then I'm not sure if the sets are smart enough to give everyone a shield or if it will instead double-up on some players and leave others without a shield.

It can double up, and you have to be too close for it to be viable for most groups (especially now that they should be running more spread). It's also NOT a healer set - there's no reason for a healer to use it over a dedicated support (or even raid leader).

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Combat Physician - Probably the best shielding set since it actually can apply to all members of a group but the shield size is quite modest.

Agreed. Works very well, and I have it as an optional on my NBs.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Prayer Shawl - Mentioned previously, limited to 3 group members, also a modest shield. Can proc on the same player several times in a row, which is unfortunate.

Unless you're going out of your way to have it work not-as-intended, not worth running in a group. Could be viable for a pug, but that's not what we really want to orient our builds towards.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Lunar Bastion - static AoE is not useful for a fluid combat situation though it at least does apply to a full raid.

Agreed.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Haven of Ursus - difficult proc condition and requires a static synergy to be activated, also only applies to half of a group with the same uncertainties in terms of targeting as Brands.

The synergy requirement makes it less useful / predictable. Not a viable raid candidate IMO.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Foolkiller - would actually be quite nice if the target cap were higher but requires three wearers to cover a full group, also has target uncertainty.

Looks really good, but you'd have to play it in context, and resources aren't really an issue in most group comps.

vesselwiththepestle

Brands of Imperium helps a lot with a surprise burst when you have barely heals up. I play non CP, though, maybe it's different in CP. I don't know if that group composition would work the same in no cp. I will give Spectre's Eye a try, though, and recommended it to supporters (instead of Seducer) and Mag DD.

With ball groups running Snow Treaders again and Talons thus not giving the synergy, I am considering switching our MagDK from support to Damage, too. He was running Damage during the no proc test and dished out high amounts of damage.

Crown

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

Brands of Imperium helps a lot with a surprise burst when you have barely heals up. I play non CP, though, maybe it's different in CP. I don't know if that group composition would work the same in no cp. I will give Spectre's Eye a try, though, and recommended it to supporters (instead of Seducer) and Mag DD.

The builds for Non-CP are very different, and I should have noted that at the start of my document (will update later this aft).

Spectre’s is definitely worth a try - as is DW for Quick Cloak on mag builds if the group doesn’t want to run it. Get that 20% AoE mitigation however you can!

neferpitou73

lol a friend and I were working on a guide like this as well, although centered around No-cp. Nice Job!

Thraben wrote: »

3) A DPS DK is a rather bizarre choice.

DK is an absolutely amazing choice for damage in the right hands.

Thraben

neferpitou73 wrote: »

lol a friend and I were working on a guide like this as well, although centered around No-cp. Nice Job!

Thraben wrote: »

3) A DPS DK is a rather bizarre choice.

DK is an absolutely amazing choice for damage in the right hands.

MagDKs fail the "bomb test", which consist of solo jumping into the best groups in the campaign and see if you can personally get them down. The last time I was able to do that on a MagDK was in 2017.

As long as nobody can show how to pass the test on MagDK, I prefer classes that pass with greater consistency, which are MagBlades and MagNecroes.

Furthermore, having an active Proxy circle around the DK reduces his CC effectiveness, as people run away from him.

MagDKs are best for buffing, synergies, and to replace the stamina speedster in smaller groups, as they have unlimited Stamina to use.

Crown

Thraben wrote: »

MagDKs fail the "bomb test", which consist of solo jumping into the best groups in the campaign and see if you can personally get them down. The last time I was able to do that on a MagDK was in 2017.

Bombing solo or in a small group is very different from bombing in a min/max group of 12.

Thraben wrote: »

As long as nobody can show how to pass the test on MagDK, I prefer classes that pass with greater consistency, which are MagBlades and MagNecroes.

Your entire composition of damage being bomb damage will be less capable than with multiple sources. If you look at the logs from min/max groups’ DKs limited to 2 seconds before the first proxy until 2 seconds after the last proxy (which should be very, very close in a well coordinated group), the DK’s damage will be higher than most other DDs. They serve multiple purposes, doing damage (of course), providing an additional snare, and a named debuff adding to the number of things that need to be purged outside the scope of the critical negative effects that you hope last as long as possible. Their additional interrupt and damage from Deep Breath and impulse, the debuff from Banner, and the synergies available from both Talons and Banner are very significant.

MagNecro value right now is graveyard and to a lesser degree the smash ult. Their actual damage output is a lot less than other classes, which is why I’m currently suggesting that the healCros throw graveyards, and one of the two healCros run smash on their back bar ult.

Thraben wrote: »

Furthermore, having an active Proxy circle around the DK reduces his CC effectiveness, as people run away from him.

That doesn’t make sense. The DK is part of the swarm/grouping, and not playing as a disruptor tank as in the long long ago. The front of your grouping should be the group leader with their hard CC, and if the DK is running in then they should have proxy up the same as the rest of the group.

Thraben wrote: »

MagDKs are best for buffing, synergies, and to replace the stamina speedster in smaller groups, as they have unlimited Stamina to use.

No, no, and no. If you discount the DK’s value then you can label it best at anything, though in doing so you’re ignoring what makes them DKs. No magDK in a damage build will ever be able to maintain rapids like a stamSorc or stamWarden. I’m happy to debate/discuss this, though in order to be on the same page I suggest you post a full composition so that we can all understand where you’re coming from.

Thraben

You need to be far less emotional about this. A good raid leader should always be willing to give up his personal preferences for the greater good. When I replaced the StamSorc rapid bot with a MagDK, i was rendering my very own class obsolete; and nowadays Curse-Eater makes a Purge Bot MagSorc a "nice to have" instead of a "must have". Yes, it might hurt a bit, particular if you know WHO introduced the MagSorc Purge Bot role in the first place...

Crown

Thraben wrote: »

You need to be far less emotional about this.

There’s no emotion in math. If something I propose is wrong or sub-optimal for the conditions in which we’re discussing, then I’m happy to be proven wrong - that only makes the recommendations stronger in future. I don’t understand why you believe emotion is involved..

Thraben wrote: »

A good raid leader should always be willing to give up his personal preferences for the greater good.

Irrelevant to our discussion. Context?

Thraben wrote: »

When I replaced the StamSorc rapid bot with a MagDK, i was rendering my very own class obsolete;

Perhaps for your own group in the exact comp that you were looking for, though if we plot out casts over time in each comp and their relevant benefits, then a stam build shows higher value every time. Build your scenarios, explain your proposal showing value, and I’m sure we’d all love to see and discuss.

Thraben wrote: »

nowadays Curse-Eater makes a Purge Bot MagSorc a "nice to have" instead of a "must have".

This sounds like the single most wrong statement I’ve seen in a long time. Curse Eater has a cooldown timer per proc, not per caster. Cleanse can be spammed and has a rather huge heal attached. Look at logs for how many negative effects are removed by Curse Eater vs by Cleanse in reasonably good fighting.

Thraben wrote: »

Yes, it might hurt a bit, particular if you know WHO introduced the MagSorc Purge Bot role in the first place...

I don’t understand the statement. Purge spam builds were always a thing since the time I started PvP in 1.3 ish. The two people I learned most from when I started were playing from day 1 (Moon & Fireshot), and a purge spam build was always part of their groups as well. Explain what you mean?

EDIT: Honourable mention to Krim for learning NB when I started PvP as well.

Thraben

1) Group bomb test: Is it fundamentally different from solo bombing? No, unless synergies are involved. Show me one elite PvP guild where the group bombblade player is unable to be a good solo bomber. If anything, the burst must come in a shorter time because of a potential counter negate, and you need to overcome more health.

2.) MagCroes are used as healers. That's totally okay, since you won't risk your rezzer's ultimate in case you need it. Damage-wise, the thing is blatantly clear: A self- synergy alone does roughly the same damage as a Soul Tether Ultimate, add a proxy, and you are at a 20k burst if not more, add a Blastbones, and you are at a 27k burst, AoE. The reason MagCroes are not used as bombers is because MagBlades are even better than this, and because you want to save up their ultimate for an emergency.

3) MagDK damage is not only less, but also less bursty, which is due to Inhale's design. As I said, in 2017 MagDKs were still able to pass the test. but to my knowledge they aren't any longer. Maybe someone comes up with a new build soon. Does that mean they are not needed? Most definitely not! Whenever I create a group, I make sure that a DK and a Necro is in it. Everything else, even the Wardens, is a nice-to-have. A pair of DK and Necro can carry whole groups as they can fullfill the rapid and the purge role, and as they have the most potent synergies.

---

4) Group comp:

A good group comp does not ask how roles are distributed among 12 players, but how little is required to do the job well. When you can't cut away any other role/ task or player, the right group comp is reached. Putting casual players into a ball group is first and foremost a security risk. They learn better by joining optimised 6person groups, which are also easier to organise.

Just take a look at this:

https://youtu.be/OxgGntXj6rk

This happens quite often on Sotha Sil (EU). There are a lot of groups out there who need help and get regularly roflstomped by groups half their size, even though they think they are "optimised". Next week I'm helping out just another guild because they asked me for help. As an experienced raid leader you will immediately see that this group, even though it is quite similar to what you suggest, is unable to effectively defend against the much smaller group.

4a) One reason is that casuals generally learn to play their classes better in a 6man group than in a 12 man, where redundancy covers mistakes.
4b) Another reason is that the game favors groups of 6, as you need a disproportional numbers of healers if you reach the healing cap. One can overcome the problem, but there is still a lot of dead weight in the group that needs healing. This leads to their hardly threatening damage, even though they had 2 Wardens and at least one Bombblade.
4c) ( not in the Video) having more players increases bomb damage against your group, and the damage increase against you scales higher than your defensive skills, buffs and sets, like Major Evasion.
4d) In this video both Negates come out at the same time, as do some Barriers. This is a classical problem for casual groups. The simplest way to prevent Ulti waste is to split up the group. Multiple waves or Ulti groups work as well, but if the team is untrained or the raid leader lazy, it won't work.


That's why I always optimise groups for roughly 6 people.

Everyone can do this using the following questions:

1) How many people can be healed (6, excl. things like rapid regen, which have a soft cap)
2) How many Proxies do I need to get enemies below 50% health? (2-3 if generous, 4 if using Inevitable Detonation instead)
3) How many SuBAssaults/ Deep Fissures do I need to get the enemies below 50% health (2-3)
3) Which non- ultimate synergies get the enemies below 50% health if all available group members can synergize it? (Grave Robber > Mystic Orbs > Talons > Lightning Flood)
4) Who can purge (everyone using Balance, preferably MagSorc)?
6) Who has endless stamina for Charging Manoevre (StamSorc > MagDK)
7) Who should charge into the enemy, and is allowed to die in case of failure (3 people, that's the number a Necro rez can do, and consequently those are the guys who use a Storm- type Ultimate and who probably use proxy as well)

Thus, a group of 6 with one group member who is rather free in his or her class choice is the result, with the Necro (Grave Robber) and the MagDK (Talons, probably Orbs as well) as the centre, as both cannot be replaced without sacrificing group damage (Even a Support StamSorc cannot replace the DK as the missing major Sorcery and minor and major Brutality buff requires the other classes to give up a vital skill or potion slot). You need to make a judgement call who REALLY needs which sets as you want to have VD, Powerful Assault, SPC, and Gossamer and possibly Curse- Eater and Brands of the Imperium as well in your group. A dedicated "finisher" DD is therefore needed to avoid equipping too many people with VD. The 6th group member, unless a Bomblade, should probably wear Coldharbor's Favourite, as the set heavily outperforms any other healing set in the game at this group size IF you know what you are doing.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

The biggest part of any group composition is simply who can play a role effectively. Leading can be done on any class. I've lead on all raid roles and classes. Sure it's nice to control stuns but this can also be done by other players in the raid just as effectively if they know how to play their roles. I play mainly NB because I'm the most comfortable and it's the class I've had the most experience playing in raid. Although I generally used to lead on DK in 6m stuff on EU cause NB isn't as strong in that group size.

Crown

I believe that many people haven’t actually read the introduction (which was copy pasted into my original post on top of the thread), and the conclusion which I’ll copy paste here:

There is no one true way, and no single composition that will win vs. all others. Your strategists and leaders need to decide for themselves how you’re going to play, what you’re going to fight, and with the players that you have available, what is best for your group.

neferpitou73

Thraben wrote: »

1) Group bomb test: Is it fundamentally different from solo bombing? No, unless synergies are involved. Show me one elite PvP guild where the group bombblade player is unable to be a good solo bomber. If anything, the burst must come in a shorter time because of a potential counter negate, and you need to overcome more health.

You're correct in saying, and I don't think anyone was claiming that DK's can outperform other classes in burst damage, assuming they're being played flawlessly. But they are still completely viable in a group and able to deal great amounts of damage especially in a group of lower skill level, where comfort with builds matters more than mechanical ability.

I'd also argue that group bombing is different than solo bombing, in the sense that there are more tactical considerations in a group v group fight. What happens if the opponent survives your bomb? Then you need to be able to supply a bit of "brawling" damage to finish them off. You also need more area denial capabilities which the DK provides.

Thraben wrote: »

.

4a) One reason is that casuals generally learn to play their classes better in a 6man group than in a 12 man, where redundancy covers mistakes.
4b) Another reason is that the game favors groups of 6, as you need a disproportional numbers of healers if you reach the healing cap. One can overcome the problem, but there is still a lot of dead weight in the group that needs healing. This leads to their hardly threatening damage, even though they had 2 Wardens and at least one Bombblade.
4c) ( not in the Video) having more players increases bomb damage against your group, and the damage increase against you scales higher than your defensive skills, buffs and sets, like Major Evasion.
4d) In this video both Negates come out at the same time, as do some Barriers. This is a classical problem for casual groups. The simplest way to prevent Ulti waste is to split up the group. Multiple waves or Ulti groups work as well, but if the team is untrained or the raid leader lazy, it won't work.

The idea of building for a 6man group is interesting. I like your "minimalist" philosophy in building group comps, using only what you need. Although I disagree with a lot of your points so I'll address them one at a time:

a.) Do you mean this in the sense that you're adding additional members outside of your 6 men comp (as in you have "extra" members)? Because otherwise I fail to see how this is easier on casuals because their role is disproportionality more important.

b.) I completely disagree with this. You can get away with 2-3 healers and 1-2 support builds in a 12man group. The healing is just fine and you get more buffs. You then have 6-7 spots left over for damage dealers.

c.) I actually agree with this one. Although in a ball v ball fight I'm not sure how much of a difference it's going to make, since in evenly skilled groups it's going to be who can put out more damage, and a 12man group should be able to put out much more damage than a 6man group.

d.) This is easily fixable, using tools such as Rdk. One method we've adopted is "numbering" our negates. That is, assigning a person to cast their negate first, then second, and so on. It can fail sometimes depending on who gets killed and whatnot but it's a pretty reliable system. As they play your members also gain experience on when to cast ultis and where.

I suppose the take away form my long ramble is that there's different ways to build viable groups.

Thraben

a) well, you only need 5 optimised players anyhow ( 4 if it's MagWardens, what I don't recommend, though). The 6th player is already not that critical: There is just a local healing maximum at 6, and you want to use it.You could easily add another player to be carried, if a Templar is present, bringing the group size to 7.. (all assuming an "everyone helps out with healing- "rule)
You could also just double the "minimised" group comp, and although it is not optimal (2 DKs instead of one, a real ballgroup would use the free space for another MagBlade) and potentially underhealed, you would overperform against most guild groups with it (explanation at b)

The only noticable "dead zone" is between 8 and 10 players. Here, one can notice even without maths that the game mechanics are not in your favour. Guests and newer players will stop overperforming and oftentimes become stragglers or VD victims. If possible, I split up already at 9-10 players.

b) There is nothing to agree or disagree here. It's a simple mathematical problem. Crown's optimisation is essentially a good and correct overview.
Just make a thought experiment: you clone the players in Crown's group, and you clone their raid leader. You have now 2 groups of exactly the same quality. The only difference is that one group is optimised for 12, and the other for 6. Second group therefore can fight with 2 6er groups, both lead by a Crown clone.

Who would win?

When you look at Crown's table and my optimisation questions you will notice that the 6er groups are basically just the upper third of his table with reassigned support roles. So the 6person groups have exactly the same relevant "charge" damage as the 12er, but need one second longer to heal up the group.

So the 12er group charges with Ultimates into the 6er group 1 and maybe destroys it, or maybe not. A few seconds later the second 6er group countercharges the 12er, and destroys it when their proxies, synergies, and Ultimates are on cooldown. Since all three groups are lead by the same cloned raid leader, it is impossible for the raid leader of the 12er to outsmart himself leading the 6er, so no fake push and the like works. Even worse, the 12 Person group of Crown's chart does not even HAVE enough damage reserves for a second counterpush, unless the MagBlades are truely exceptional (which Crown himself has ruled out above).

So the 12er would always lose against the 2 6er groups of exactly the same quality.

And this explains why you need better players in a 12er than in a 6er - since the game mechanics favours the 6er, you can more easily carry inexperienced players in it, and still win. Where a weak link in a 12er leads to a catastrophe due to the scaling of VD and Deto, a weak link in a 6er is not that bad (as the work can be done with 5 players already, just not for a longer time)

If you ask why despite its mathematical problems the 12er group is the norm, I would point out that those groups can last longer fighting away from any support (e.g. twice the amount of rezzes, easier camp building etc), and that as a perceived "zerg" they have a psychological advantage against players who see their numbers and despair, whereas against 6 those victims would fight more aggressively as they think they have a chance (and indeed have one, as the consequence).

AmoralOne

L_Nici wrote: »

Never get talked into a specific Skill or Set, if a group tries to do that, dump it and search one that can adjust according to what the individuals want. The real challenge is to make the best out of what you get.
Just forcing specific Sets und Skills degrades you to a Ballgroup, that mindlessly follows one person that tells them what to do.

This is the entire point of comp group though? You have the best x set for x characters you are bringing into group.

If this post was about like solo, or small scale groups then your comment I can justify, but here in like a 10man group, you wouldnt want someone who is in less than perfect gear. You are following crown, and listening to the call outs, you want to be able to perform the best you can.

imo end game for PvP is finding a good ball group to run around with, and wipe everyone.

neferpitou73

Thraben wrote: »

b) There is nothing to agree or disagree here. It's a simple mathematical problem. Crown's optimisation is essentially a good and correct overview.
Just make a thought experiment: you clone the players in Crown's group, and you clone their raid leader. You have now 2 groups of exactly the same quality. The only difference is that one group is optimised for 12, and the other for 6. Second group therefore can fight with 2 6er groups, both lead by a Crown clone.

Who would win?

When you look at Crown's table and my optimisation questions you will notice that the 6er groups are basically just the upper third of his table with reassigned support roles. So the 6person groups have exactly the same relevant "charge" damage as the 12er, but need one second longer to heal up the group.

So the 12er group charges with Ultimates into the 6er group 1 and maybe destroys it, or maybe not. A few seconds later the second 6er group countercharges the 12er, and destroys it when their proxies, synergies, and Ultimates are on cooldown. Since all three groups are lead by the same cloned raid leader, it is impossible for the raid leader of the 12er to outsmart himself leading the 6er, so no fake push and the like works. Even worse, the 12 Person group of Crown's chart does not even HAVE enough damage reserves for a second counterpush, unless the MagBlades are truely exceptional (which Crown himself has ruled out above).

So the 12er would always lose against the 2 6er groups of exactly the same quality.

And this explains why you need better players in a 12er than in a 6er - since the game mechanics favours the 6er, you can more easily carry inexperienced players in it, and still win. Where a weak link in a 12er leads to a catastrophe due to the scaling of VD and Deto, a weak link in a 6er is not that bad (as the work can be done with 5 players already, just not for a longer time)

If you ask why despite its mathematical problems the 12er group is the norm, I would point out that those groups can last longer fighting away from any support (e.g. twice the amount of rezzes, easier camp building etc), and that as a perceived "zerg" they have a psychological advantage against players who see their numbers and despair, whereas against 6 those victims would fight more aggressively as they think they have a chance (and indeed have one, as the consequence).

Note that you needed to have 2 6man's to take on the one 12man group in this example. Which is an implicit admission that numbers matter in this type of fight. The 12 man group just optimizes the tools that these players have at their disposal. You can stuff enough buffs in a 12man to make everyone feel they are having heavy armour and push their offensive stats through the roof. The 12man crown in this example seems to be an idiot who didn't notice a second group coming into his rear. The whole point of running a 12man is dumping ults to burst down your opponent and then quickly getting out (that is avoiding the tactical situation you mention here). In certain tactical situations it's good to have two seperate smaller groups but in a straight up fight they're going to have a tougher time.

I have no doubt that 6man groups can regularly dispatch 12man groups like yours seems to do. I'm just not sure whether it comes down to quality of builds or the quality of players you attract (successful small groups tend to have more mechanically gifted players in my experience). Which in any case seems to agree with the overall point that there is no single "correct way" to build an optimal group.