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Axes are imbalanced based on developers' spreadsheet
Luckylancer
✭✭✭✭✭
TD;DR:
-Maul+Shadow is better than Great Axe+ Lover in every aspect. Better pen, better critical healing at cost of 1% crit damage
-DW axes are terrible compared to everthing else
-I dont want to buy expensive mauls for PvP while I can run cheap 2h Axe. After a buff mauls will be better than axes in PvP anyways because they won't force you in to lover mundus
Math:
-Maul+Shadow is better than Great Axe+ Lover in every aspect. Better pen, better critical healing at cost of 1% crit damage
-DW axes are terrible compared to everthing else
-I dont want to buy expensive mauls for PvP while I can run cheap 2h Axe. After a buff mauls will be better than axes in PvP anyways because they won't force you in to lover mundus
Math:
2h axe: 12% crit damage done
2 dw axes: 8% crit damage done
Shadow mundus: 11% crit damage and healing done
2h maul: 3300 offensive pen
2 dw maces: 3300 offensive pen
Lover mundus: 2744 offensive pen
Weapons are 20% more potent
2h sword: 284 weapon/spell damage
2 dw swords: 284 weapon/spell damage
Warrior/Apperentice mundus: 238 weapon/spell damage
Weapons are 20% more potent
2 dw daggers: 1624 crit
Thief mundus: 1333 crit
Weapons are 21% more potent
-Axes are quite weak in PvP and PvE. They need an adjustment.
-It doesn't make sense but if axes get "% critical healing done" buff
-2h axe bonus should be 13%, dw axe bonus should be 6,5%
In my defence:
2 dw axes: 8% crit damage done
Shadow mundus: 11% crit damage and healing done
2h maul: 3300 offensive pen
2 dw maces: 3300 offensive pen
Lover mundus: 2744 offensive pen
Weapons are 20% more potent
2h sword: 284 weapon/spell damage
2 dw swords: 284 weapon/spell damage
Warrior/Apperentice mundus: 238 weapon/spell damage
Weapons are 20% more potent
2 dw daggers: 1624 crit
Thief mundus: 1333 crit
Weapons are 21% more potent
-Axes are quite weak in PvP and PvE. They need an adjustment.
-It doesn't make sense but if axes get "% critical healing done" buff
-2h axe bonus should be 13%, dw axe bonus should be 6,5%
In my defence:
PTS Patch notes:
Channeled Focus (morph):
Increased the Magicka restored per tick to 242, up from 240.
Restoring Focus (morph):
Increased the Stamina restored per tick to 242, up from 240.
Reduced the base cost to 918, down from 920, to ensure it meets the 15% standard cost reduction of Stamina based abilities. That 2 Stamina may save your life one day, just maybe.
C'mon devs
Channeled Focus (morph):
Increased the Magicka restored per tick to 242, up from 240.
Restoring Focus (morph):
Increased the Stamina restored per tick to 242, up from 240.
Reduced the base cost to 918, down from 920, to ensure it meets the 15% standard cost reduction of Stamina based abilities. That 2 Stamina may save your life one day, just maybe.
C'mon devs
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WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Fair point, and I’d go as far as to say 7% and 14% crit damage on axes. Using Shadow as a baseline implies Axes should be 13.3%, so it needs to be decided if that rounds up or down. I believe the Shadow is weaker than Thief or Lover currently, so I’d be inclined to round up the axe bonus so it ends up more balanced in DPS. AFAIK you cannot have decimals in crit damage (it just gets rounded down), so a single axe needs to be a whole number like 7%.Edited by WrathOfInnos on June 6, 2021 1:12PM3 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Also, is it just me, or is it weird that Axes give Crit Damage & Maces/Mauls give Penetration? That's so backwards!
Axes are sharp, and can cut/pierce into things... like flesh, armor, et cetera, right? Also known as Penetration.
Maces are heavy, and do more damage / crush things when you land a good hit... which sure sounds like Critical Damage bonus to me.
This has always bugged me a little, even though it's totally unimportant and matters basically not at all.
But they did change the Lover stone to give Penetration way back when, so I guess I'll give them a pass.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk!
Edited by GreenHere on June 4, 2021 1:13AM10 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Also, is it just me, or is it weird that Axes give Crit Damage & Maces/Mauls give Penetration? That's so backwards!
Axes are sharp, and can cut/pierce into things... like flesh, armor, et cetera, right? Also known as Penetration.
Maces are heavy, and do more damage / crush things when you land a good hit... which sure sounds like Critical Damage bonus to me.
This has always bugged me a little, even though it's totally unimportant and matters basically not at all.
But they did change the Lover stone to give Penetration way back when, so I guess I'll give them a pass.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk!
Maces/mauls smash/dent heavy armor, while axes just bounce off or get deflected. The result is that maces/mauls are more effective against people wearing heavy armor than axes are, which pretty much aligns with how penetration works. Axes, on the other hand, have the potential to deal more damage if you somehow managed to get them in between plates of armor, which is pretty consistent with higher crit damage. Daggers sort of make sense too, because they're more maneuverable and easier to aim at weak spots. Don't ask me to explain swords though.Edited by the1andonlyskwex on June 4, 2021 1:43AM10 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Also, is it just me, or is it weird that Axes give Crit Damage & Maces/Mauls give Penetration? That's so backwards!
Axes are sharp, and can cut/pierce into things... like flesh, armor, et cetera, right? Also known as Penetration.
Maces are heavy, and do more damage / crush things when you land a good hit... which sure sounds like Critical Damage bonus to me.
This has always bugged me a little, even though it's totally unimportant and matters basically not at all.
But they did change the Lover stone to give Penetration way back when, so I guess I'll give them a pass.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk!
Maces/mauls smash/dent heavy armor, while axes just bounce off or get deflected. The result is that maces/mauls are more effective against people wearing heavy armor than axes are, which pretty much aligns with how penetration works. Axes, on the other hand, have the potential to deal more damage if you somehow managed to get them in between plates of armor, which is pretty consistent with higher crit damage. Daggers sort of make sense too, because they're more maneuverable and easier to aim at weak spots. Don't ask me to explain swords though.
yeah i think the modifiers make sense for the weapons they gave it to. unlike with the destruction staves.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX1 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Also, is it just me, or is it weird that Axes give Crit Damage & Maces/Mauls give Penetration? That's so backwards!
Axes are sharp, and can cut/pierce into things... like flesh, armor, et cetera, right? Also known as Penetration.
Maces are heavy, and do more damage / crush things when you land a good hit... which sure sounds like Critical Damage bonus to me.
This has always bugged me a little, even though it's totally unimportant and matters basically not at all.
But they did change the Lover stone to give Penetration way back when, so I guess I'll give them a pass.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk!
Maces/mauls smash/dent heavy armor, while axes just bounce off or get deflected. The result is that maces/mauls are more effective against people wearing heavy armor than axes are, which pretty much aligns with how penetration works. Axes, on the other hand, have the potential to deal more damage if you somehow managed to get them in between plates of armor, which is pretty consistent with higher crit damage. Daggers sort of make sense too, because they're more maneuverable and easier to aim at weak spots. Don't ask me to explain swords though.
But explain swords, though! ;P
(just kidding)
Yeah, I know you're right, and I try to tell myself that same thing too. It just feels counter to what my dumb-guy-who-knows-basically-nothing-about-medieval-combat instincts tell me is all. Weight-based weapons like mauls and flails and whatnot inflict damage despite heavy armoring, which is kind of an obscure form of penetration I suppose; but it fits well enough. My smooth brain just wants "Sharp = Cut!" and "Blunt = Smash!", I guess. lol
Honestly I just miss the Bleed from Axes. Made them feel unique. I wish they tuned it appropriate if they felt it necessary to reign them in, instead of just changing them entirely. Oh well.
More on-topic: I've always kind of just assumed that ZOS held back a bit on Crit Damage as a stat because of how it can scale up when you start piling on too many sources of it, but to be honest I don't really understand how the math shakes out on that.
Isn't there a legitimate reason to be wary of giving players too much access to Critical Damage bonuses, like to not risk it becoming the king of all stats? I know I've heard people who are in the upper tiers of damage talking about tipping points where Shadow becomes better than Thief for related reasons...3 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Also, is it just me, or is it weird that Axes give Crit Damage & Maces/Mauls give Penetration? That's so backwards!
Axes are sharp, and can cut/pierce into things... like flesh, armor, et cetera, right? Also known as Penetration.
Maces are heavy, and do more damage / crush things when you land a good hit... which sure sounds like Critical Damage bonus to me.
This has always bugged me a little, even though it's totally unimportant and matters basically not at all.
But they did change the Lover stone to give Penetration way back when, so I guess I'll give them a pass.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk!
Maces/mauls smash/dent heavy armor, while axes just bounce off or get deflected. The result is that maces/mauls are more effective against people wearing heavy armor than axes are, which pretty much aligns with how penetration works. Axes, on the other hand, have the potential to deal more damage if you somehow managed to get them in between plates of armor, which is pretty consistent with higher crit damage. Daggers sort of make sense too, because they're more maneuverable and easier to aim at weak spots. Don't ask me to explain swords though.
Due to a long blades and being more balanced than other weapons, swords are the best option for fencing, therefore your overall weapon potential is better than using less balanced axes & maces or point-hit daggers
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GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ippokrates wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Also, is it just me, or is it weird that Axes give Crit Damage & Maces/Mauls give Penetration? That's so backwards!
Axes are sharp, and can cut/pierce into things... like flesh, armor, et cetera, right? Also known as Penetration.
Maces are heavy, and do more damage / crush things when you land a good hit... which sure sounds like Critical Damage bonus to me.
This has always bugged me a little, even though it's totally unimportant and matters basically not at all.
But they did change the Lover stone to give Penetration way back when, so I guess I'll give them a pass.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk!
Maces/mauls smash/dent heavy armor, while axes just bounce off or get deflected. The result is that maces/mauls are more effective against people wearing heavy armor than axes are, which pretty much aligns with how penetration works. Axes, on the other hand, have the potential to deal more damage if you somehow managed to get them in between plates of armor, which is pretty consistent with higher crit damage. Daggers sort of make sense too, because they're more maneuverable and easier to aim at weak spots. Don't ask me to explain swords though.
Due to a long blades and being more balanced than other weapons, swords are the best option for fencing, therefore your overall weapon potential is better than using less balanced axes & maces or point-hit daggers
That's a pretty good theory! I like that you thought out a way that really makes sense, and does seem to fit. Swords are fundamentally different than the other weapons we have in-game, so it stands to reason that there'd be some solid logic behind why they give the bonus that only they do. Nice thinking!
Unfortunately, though, you're wrong. I've done extensive research and scoured all of the arcane secrets of history and lore to discover the TRUE reason why Swords give flat power boost in ESO...
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Vevvev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Also, is it just me, or is it weird that Axes give Crit Damage & Maces/Mauls give Penetration? That's so backwards!
Axes are sharp, and can cut/pierce into things... like flesh, armor, et cetera, right? Also known as Penetration.
Maces are heavy, and do more damage / crush things when you land a good hit... which sure sounds like Critical Damage bonus to me.
This has always bugged me a little, even though it's totally unimportant and matters basically not at all.
But they did change the Lover stone to give Penetration way back when, so I guess I'll give them a pass.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk!
Maces/mauls smash/dent heavy armor, while axes just bounce off or get deflected. The result is that maces/mauls are more effective against people wearing heavy armor than axes are, which pretty much aligns with how penetration works. Axes, on the other hand, have the potential to deal more damage if you somehow managed to get them in between plates of armor, which is pretty consistent with higher crit damage. Daggers sort of make sense too, because they're more maneuverable and easier to aim at weak spots. Don't ask me to explain swords though.
But explain swords, though! ;P
(just kidding)
Yeah, I know you're right, and I try to tell myself that same thing too. It just feels counter to what my dumb-guy-who-knows-basically-nothing-about-medieval-combat instincts tell me is all. Weight-based weapons like mauls and flails and whatnot inflict damage despite heavy armoring, which is kind of an obscure form of penetration I suppose; but it fits well enough. My smooth brain just wants "Sharp = Cut!" and "Blunt = Smash!", I guess. lol
Honestly I just miss the Bleed from Axes. Made them feel unique. I wish they tuned it appropriate if they felt it necessary to reign them in, instead of just changing them entirely. Oh well.
There is a game I'd recommend called Mordhau. It'll help clear that whole thing up when you start fighting people wearing heavy armor and it becomes more beneficial to flip your weapon around and use the blunt end. Can even flip the blade around and hold it by the blade allowing you to hit them with the pommel like a club.Edited by Vevvev on June 5, 2021 6:51PMPC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK1 -
Noctus✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Also, is it just me, or is it weird that Axes give Crit Damage & Maces/Mauls give Penetration? That's so backwards!
Axes are sharp, and can cut/pierce into things... like flesh, armor, et cetera, right? Also known as Penetration.
Maces are heavy, and do more damage / crush things when you land a good hit... which sure sounds like Critical Damage bonus to me.
This has always bugged me a little, even though it's totally unimportant and matters basically not at all.
But they did change the Lover stone to give Penetration way back when, so I guess I'll give them a pass.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk!
Maces/mauls smash/dent heavy armor, while axes just bounce off or get deflected. The result is that maces/mauls are more effective against people wearing heavy armor than axes are, which pretty much aligns with how penetration works. Axes, on the other hand, have the potential to deal more damage if you somehow managed to get them in between plates of armor, which is pretty consistent with higher crit damage. Daggers sort of make sense too, because they're more maneuverable and easier to aim at weak spots. Don't ask me to explain swords though.
since u can use the back end of the sword for blunt dmg and front for slashing and even can use it with holding the blade and the grip making it a short spear to pierce through weak spots of the armor. it can do all of it so nonspecific increase dmg is the best way to go ?
also.... this looks like big dmg to me
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GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »Also, is it just me, or is it weird that Axes give Crit Damage & Maces/Mauls give Penetration? That's so backwards!
Axes are sharp, and can cut/pierce into things... like flesh, armor, et cetera, right? Also known as Penetration.
Maces are heavy, and do more damage / crush things when you land a good hit... which sure sounds like Critical Damage bonus to me.
This has always bugged me a little, even though it's totally unimportant and matters basically not at all.
But they did change the Lover stone to give Penetration way back when, so I guess I'll give them a pass.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk!
Maces/mauls smash/dent heavy armor, while axes just bounce off or get deflected. The result is that maces/mauls are more effective against people wearing heavy armor than axes are, which pretty much aligns with how penetration works. Axes, on the other hand, have the potential to deal more damage if you somehow managed to get them in between plates of armor, which is pretty consistent with higher crit damage. Daggers sort of make sense too, because they're more maneuverable and easier to aim at weak spots. Don't ask me to explain swords though.
But explain swords, though! ;P
(just kidding)
Yeah, I know you're right, and I try to tell myself that same thing too. It just feels counter to what my dumb-guy-who-knows-basically-nothing-about-medieval-combat instincts tell me is all. Weight-based weapons like mauls and flails and whatnot inflict damage despite heavy armoring, which is kind of an obscure form of penetration I suppose; but it fits well enough. My smooth brain just wants "Sharp = Cut!" and "Blunt = Smash!", I guess. lol
Honestly I just miss the Bleed from Axes. Made them feel unique. I wish they tuned it appropriate if they felt it necessary to reign them in, instead of just changing them entirely. Oh well.
There is a game I'd recommend called Mordhau. It'll help clear that whole thing up when you start fighting people wearing heavy armor and it becomes more beneficial to flip your weapon around and use the blunt end. Can even flip the blade around and hold it by the blade allowing you to hit them with the pommel like a club.
You know, you're the third person who's mentioned Mordhau to me in contexts similar to this. Sounds like a game with interesting stuff going on! I keep meaning to check it out, but never quite remembered / got around to it. Thanks for the recommendation! I'ma go look it up right now. 0 -
Luckylancer✭✭✭✭✭Am I the only nerd here that care about spreadsheets? Gilliam, I need you here. This topic is more significant than 2 stamina and 2 magica sustain of templars.
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GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Luckylancer wrote: »Am I the only nerd here that care about spreadsheets? Gilliam, I need you here. This topic is more significant than 2 stamina and 2 magica sustain of templars.
I care! Sorry if it feels like I derailed your thread early on -- that was not my intention.
My question above about the (assumed) inherent imbalance between Crit Damage and other similar stats hasn't been addressed either, and I was really hoping someone who understands damage math and mechanics would be able to shed some light on it. It's something I've wondered about for forever and a half.
If Crit Damage really is a "dangerously" powerful stat to let players stack too high, then it makes sense why sources of it generally seem lower and more sparse than other stats. But the tipping point between raw Weapon/Spell Damage vs Crit Chance vs Crit Damage vs Penetration vs Damage Done and all the other minor factors that influence total damage output and game combat in general... it's just way over my head when trying to juggle all that technical info at once. I'm not much of a numbers person to begin with. And even if I were, it's just kind of a lot to consider all at once. (Which I assume is the whole idea behind the "spreadsheet balancing" approach; because even people way smarter than me likely need a way to wrangle all that complicated info.)
Another problem we as players have with this whole situation is how limited our available info is. We do our best to decipher stuff on the user end of the equations, but on the whole ZOS is a bit opaque with the nitty gritty on how most mathy mechanics work behind the scenes, I think. To be fair it's their game and all, so keeping the "secret sauce" somewhat secret is their prerogative and makes a certain amount of sense. I used to really enjoy the artist formerly known as @Gilliamtherogue 's YouTube content for stuff like this, but I believe he's now been subsumed as @ZOS_Gilliam . (I don't know if ZOS employees are inclined or even allowed to participate in these sort of discussions.)
What might help is to tag any forum members that you happen to know are pretty good with understanding this sort of numbery stuff that you're asking about and inviting them to participate in the thread. @paulsimonps springs to mind, but I'm failing to think of other people who have famously insightful info-heavy contributions to the forums at the moment. (But there's always the obvious possibility that whoever you tag will simply have no interest in this thread, too. Can't do much about that.)0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@GreenHere
Thanks for the vote of confidence
I sadly have not delved much into the damage side of things as other people used to do that back in the day. Though many of them are now gone and many that currently do keep it within their guilds. I will add this though:
ZOS is notorious for over nerfing things or over buffing. Both have the implication that something that was previously "Best in Slot" can become decon trash over night. I mean somethings aren't even worth talking about after being changed and never ever heard being used again, though somethings do remain partially used by off meta builds or for "beginners" builds due to their ease of access.
Axes is one such case where it was over nerfed. Its DoT effect was deemed too powerful to continue so ZOS got rid of it entirely. The effects they have now added into it have many thinking they were less than ideal. As mentioned the overall damage do appear much lower, as critical chance plays a bigger role in overall DPS than the Critical Damage that we currently get from Axes. I can get the theme that they went with for the Critical Damage as other than Max Stamina its the only other Base Stat that increases damage without adding anything too unique and specific.
So a tweak to the numbers might be warranted but preferably more math into it to give more detailed examples of changes could be made.
Oh and yea anyone that becomes a Dev would be unable to help us in this regard. I mean technically they have access to the exact way things are calculated but giving us those equations would mean we would be able to MUCH MORE easily figure out BiS, and many sets would fall out of favor entirely. Us finding the mathematically perfect build is a pursuit the Devs would like use to be chasing forever but never obtaining.
Got limited free time now a days but willing to help in discussion if I can.1
