Why adding new sets, if 90% of current sets in game are useless

MindOfTheSwarm

Tandor wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I love having lots of sets but I do agree that it's a problem that so many of them are so bad.

It's not that the sets are bad, it's that they aren't considered "meta" so everyone looks down upon them and players that use them.

There are tons of good sets out there. They just aren't on Alcast builds so nobody sees any value in them.

Not "nobody", just not those who follow Alcast or whoever. The other 99% see plenty of value in them.

This. Take Undaunted Unweaver and Infiltrator both regarded as bad sets. But if you combine them you can set up some pretty nasty burst damage on a Nightblade. Simply by prepping with Relentless Focus then following up with Ambush a light attack and Incap.

Aertew

Einher2137 wrote: »

Anyone thinking same? They adding a tons of new sets, when a lot of them are not meta. What is your opinion.

FTFY

GenjiraX

They could start stealing the 5-piece bonus from one set and porting it to another set as a 4-piece bonus but at 50% or 75% of the impact (damage, armour, whatever). That’d enable more creativity in builds, including utilising Mythic items.

ThePianist

I can already tell, Gaze of Sithis is pay to win. Sorcs are going to love this in pvp. 0 block reduction from Gaze of Sithis? Pffft, My magsorc runs snb backbar with shield wall ult, and overload front bar. No need for healing ward, we got crit surge.

Idk about stamblades though, blocking meteors and the last tick of curses is pretty important.

But I think Sithis is a noob friendly set since 99% of you forget to block anyway. Other than dawnbreaker and Incap, people seem to love receiving meteors and DK leaps with open arms.

Andre_Noir

BalticBlues wrote: »

This is called SALES STRATEGY.

Each chapter brings OP sets making former sets look old
so that people have a reason to buy the new chapter.

Of course, before the next chapter the OP sets have to be nerfed...

Where is OP sets for mDD in last year ?

Deter1UK

WiseSky wrote: »

While we are at it, can we also remove 99% of Costumes, Styles and Motifs, They are all Useless because All I care is Damage output.

And lets remove 99% of the players as well, after all they cant do damage and just get in the way, clog up the dungeon queue and spam irritating requests in chat for help....

after all if you are not Godslayer you are not a valid player eh?

HyekAr

Einher2137 wrote: »

Anyone thinking same? They adding a tons of new sets, when a lot of them are useless piece of nothing. What is your opinion.

Yes.

Because they dont have it balanced well enough.
Instead of having 10 thausand of sets, they could resume all in 30 sets with combined abilities


as per my personal MMO exp, game devs start adding useless content when they are having feature-ideas crysis, and the new content just temporal distraction for us.

They coyld spend the efforts, money and time for internal game balance, improvmts of the existant content and game design, story. Improved NPC and inteligant AI

BalticBlues

Andre_Noir wrote: »

Where is OP sets for mDD in last year ?

Agreed, last year there was no OP mDD set.
ZOS now prefers Stam, Magicka receives only nerfs, especially with Update 30.

However, FalseGod once was the OP set for mDD combined with MotherSorrow.
Nerfed after selling a lot of Elsweyr...

Similar as New Moon Acolyte was the OP set for PvP.
Nerfed after selling a lot of Dragonhold...

HyekAr

six2fall wrote: »

It's sad but almost every set needs to be reworked. Unfortunately zos goes with the idea of nerfing the over performing sets still leaving them to be the most useful while the rest are gimmick build types or just plain worthless for most players. It would be nice to see everything buffed or reworked to better fit current game metas

Actually it is enough just merging them, take 5 sets, merge their abilities in 1 combined. And each piece relocate them in this 5 sets's area/zone

HyekAr

kargen27 wrote: »

Crafted sets are basically stepping stone sets made easily available to any player until they feel like going after the better sets. If crafted sets were boosted to be on par with drop sets there would be less incentive to run content. For an MMO to survive players need to participate in a variety of content. That is why good PvP sets come from trials. If players only interested in PVP could craft a top notch set they would have no reason to visit any other part of the game.

The other thing an MMO needs is new content. New sets are a part of that new content. I think there is a decent balance between how powerful sets are and where/when in the player/characters path to glory they will be used.

To do this, they could instead of content.. create a new purchising quest, very very dificult to complate- so buying them for crown doesnt guarantee ur will pass them. And after passing them, get a super special item/set piece.. etc. This woyld resolve the selling problem and at tge same time, ppl would like to pay 500crowns for a quest which may give u a special item, or set piece.

Imagine if it is a set, how many quest U need to buy/do to get the set? 10 atleast 100*500=50.000crown for a quest line..

They give us good story and very hard quest, without spending half of a year to create a big content, and by spanding less money, time. They give us good interesting quest. They dont destroy or do bad common content. Like U re saying. Bcz no need, they will have complately pararlel way to get incomes.

we give them money

NupidStoob

I really disagree and I think a lot more sets are useful than people realise. The perception is just as such since people play a tiny spectrum of all the possibilities available. If you play PvE and PvP, all roles, all classes, stamina and magicka you will notice that there is actually a huge amount of useful sets with many upon many niche uses. I'd say it's less than 50% of the sets that are actually useless.

Patches regularly shake this up as well and sure some sets are universally a lot more used than others since they offer more benefits, but that won't ever go away. There will always be something that is best/meta and people will gravitate towards that. It's an impossible task to completely balance this.

The most limiting factor for different builds are the resources players have available with the biggest being time. If something is only useful in one trial or even more extreme a single boss fight most people will think twice before farming/buying and upgrading the gear. Then people fall back to something generic that works, but isn't necessarily the very best and it creates this illusion of staleness.

HyekAr

NupidStoob wrote: »

It's an impossible task to completely balance this.

As I see balancing problem it starts when u have 3 roads, mahika, health and stamina, and dont exactly know what and how affect it to ur char. After this it comes the set. As the skillbalance is controlable by player.

So when u use a set for a specific build, u dont control it eficiently, bcz u dont control what includes Stamina or Magika

HyekAr

For example, the game doesnt have proper cooldown and casting/fighting speed, and this are good things for a good set

BXR_Lonestar

Einher2137 wrote: »

Anyone thinking same? They adding a tons of new sets, when a lot of them are useless piece of nothing. What is your opinion.

Its because right now, there is such a limited band on what is actually viable at high end play. You want to be a high-end mag DPS? It used to be you would build for a balance of max stats + spell damage, and you'd be good, so long as you had around 50% crit. Now? Crit build is the ONLY way to go in order to maximize damage, spell damage doesn't scale nearly as well off of max stats, so really, there are ONLY three stats you are looking to obtain from your gear: 1) critical chance, 2) critical damage, and 3) spell power; basically the same thing for stam builds, except stam obviously builds for weapon power.

Proc sets? Proc sets only boost your DPS by a flat amount - usually somewhere in the order of 1.3-1.6K dps on average. How so? Because you take how much damage the proc does and you divide it by the time between procs, and you get the average amount it is going to increase your DPS.

Straight spell power or max stat builds? Both are going to be much weaker than a crit build because there is no damage multiplier. (As a side note, I think this is the result of people not being forced to REALLY LEAN into crit builds - i.e., you can still obtain high spell/weapon damage, a solid crit chance, and a good amount of extra crit damage done easily, whereas you can't accumulate enough max spell/weapon damage or max stats to allow you to reach an average damage equivalent to a crit build).

The very bottom line here is that in PVE, it is about SUSTAINED damage over time, and there is really only a narrow band of builds that allow you to increase your sustained DPS, and those builds are limited to crit builds that boost all of your damaging spells/abilities.

DinoZavr

i may be wrong, but, still, i am concerned that "unification" being enforced by Zenimax ruins the game quite seriously.
Templar is somewhat yellow, Necromancer is blueish and Warden is green.. other than than differences vanish.
The good alternative is to return to the original concepts increasing classes specialization, giving Nightblades unmatched bursts, giving templars excellent heals, granting Wardens incredible sustain, offering DKs powerful mitigation and offering sorc AoE and mobility. I realize balancing becomes way way harder, but this could keep game vivid, instead of making it very boring with barely undestinguishable classes (if you are colorblind).
Then tweaking older sets might work in junction to the "distinguishable classes" to some extent, making ones niche for magNB healer, others for stamDK tank, etc etc.. as there might be 6 classes x 2 specs x 3 roles x 3 areas of use (PVE group, PVE solo/random, PVP).

cyberjanet

What would be nice is to have a plethora of excellent sets, so that people really do have a reason to diversify their builds.

amm7sb14_ESO

DinoZavr wrote: »

i may be wrong, but, still, i am concerned that "unification" being enforced by Zenimax ruins the game quite seriously.
Templar is somewhat yellow, Necromancer is blueish and Warden is green.. other than than differences vanish.
The good alternative is to return to the original concepts increasing classes specialization, giving Nightblades unmatched bursts, giving templars excellent heals, granting Wardens incredible sustain, offering DKs powerful mitigation and offering sorc AoE and mobility. I realize balancing becomes way way harder, but this could keep game vivid, instead of making it very boring with barely undestinguishable classes (if you are colorblind).
Then tweaking older sets might work in junction to the "distinguishable classes" to some extent, making ones niche for magNB healer, others for stamDK tank, etc etc.. as there might be 6 classes x 2 specs x 3 roles x 3 areas of use (PVE group, PVE solo/random, PVP).

I don't disagree. People don't like when I say it, but as is, the classes are all entirely the same, with some minor differences between them, but nothing to make the classes unique. Since everything actually boils down to, not skills, but the effects that the skills apply, all the classes end up having the same kits for the most part, and whatever they are missing can be found in weapon skill lines.

Every tank is going to have Major Resolve, Maim, Taunt, Breach & Fracture, self heal, chains, etc. Whether that Resolve looks like bone armor, an ice shield, an ethereal form, or whatever it looks like for the different classes, it is still the same thing. Same thing for DPS, and for heals. They are all going to have the same effects, probably all using the same weapon skills, and just supplementing a few class skills to fill the gap.

The main differences are in the ultimates, and that's really about it.

But as it is, a tank is a tank is a tank, a mag DPS is a mag DPS is a mag DPS, a stam DPS is a stam DPS is a stam DPS, and a healer is a healer is a healer.

It's irrelevant if that role is filled by a Necro, a Warden, a Dragon Knight, a Templar, a Sorc, or a Nightblade. They are all doing the same things with just minor detail differences between them

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

zvavi wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

There is something called fun.

You know what would be fun? If most sets were competitive and build diversity could flourish, instead of being shoehorned into the same old three sets for end game. That's the point of this thread, as I perceive it. Doing at least decent damage/healing/tanking with a variety of sets would be my definition of fun.

please, 5 piece bonuses like julianos add around 5% dps (semi meta) which means in non meta sets you should be able to fair pretty well with 10% damage loss tops. that's nothing. literally. a good player in a mediocre group will still be stronger than the other players, even if he is in non meta sets (that are btw usually tailored towards lots of group buffs that dont exist in said groups). your ability to run dungeons with that damage loss is barely hit. can you be stronger? ye sure. but saying build diversity doesnt exist when currently mag groups are using over 9 different sets:
BSW, mechanical acuity, master architect (vAS), siroria, mother's sorrow, medusa, z'en, elemental catalyst, (sometimes false gods), zaan, domihous, 2 crit, slimecraw
there is diversity. but you cant have too many sets that are BiS, but you can get similar results with less meta sets, like using moondancer for more mobile fights. Competitive is a term that is used only for the best of the best sets. but all sets are good enough for most content.

PS - damage loss is under assumption you lose 2 of the 5 piece bonuses, not exchange them.

What made you think I was talking about Julianos? lol. I'm already aware of the sets you listed and their functionality, as I've used almost all of them at one time or another. I'm referring *mostly* to actual useless sets that could be made so much better and still be fun. Obviously player skill will ultimately be the determining factor of most of one's dps, but why not have more fun and not gimp oneself? If the sets were better, it would encourage more build diversity and help raise the floor for newer players. I'm seeing that being lost more and more every year and am not of the opinion that only a very small handful of sets being "bis" is good; the difference between some of the best sets and some of the worst sets is too great. I'm not sure why anyone would have a problem with more choices?

If we are talking about proc sets, well, the answer is PvP. In PvE you can stand and parse, in PvP you can't. So proc sets offer more in PvP compared to PvE, and the need to balance both, leaves sets either useless in PvE or overpowered in PvP.

Which is yet another reason why PVE and PVP absolutely NEED to be balanced separately.

Jeremy

Einher2137 wrote: »

Anyone thinking same? They adding a tons of new sets, when a lot of them are useless piece of nothing. What is your opinion.

I don't see a downside to it. If you think a set is useless, then simply don't use it. But having more options is rarely if ever a negative.

Playing other games (like Black Desert for example) showed me just how much for granted one can take a variety in gear selection. It's amazing how boring a game becomes when you only have a few gear sets to choose from. So I would say the vast assortment of gear is one of this game's strong points. I do wish they would stop nerfing everything new, unique and effective people come up with by experimenting with these sets though. In a sense, they defeat their own purpose when they do that.

WeerW3ir

Thats what you get if they want to make sets literally for everyone. There will be 10% useful set and 90% set which have so minimal usage in endgame that its a joke to even taking them seriously.

Anyway the main problem is that, loooong time they not think about the veteran players. They think about the new players, the players who played other Tes titles and basicly playing the game casually. Yes. Eso mostly have Casual players nowadays. The player base who takes the game seriously and not for the story is really minimal to the players who are here for the story, for events, or for anything which is not endgame pve. Since the game is almost f2p. The most of their income comes from the players of this group.

Nagastani

Every game needs winners and losers... think of all the extra sets as a sort of "social darwinism" if you will.

All the developers have done is paved the road.

Nagastani

six2fall wrote: »

It's sad but almost every set needs to be reworked. Unfortunately zos goes with the idea of nerfing the over performing sets still leaving them to be the most useful while the rest are gimmick build types or just plain worthless for most players. It would be nice to see everything buffed or reworked to better fit current game metas

Except you cannot do that. Ultimately there are only a few good options for every skill category. By buffing everything, that makes everything the best metaphorically while also making everything's net effect the same.

The best fix is to eliminate most sets and tie remaining sets into lore somehow, so they have a deeper meaning without having any two sets similar. In fact, there all kinds of things that could be done with this.

I honestly think the greatest weakness to sets in this game is they are not really unlocked or earned. If you had to fight like heck for that Hunding's Rage you would appreciate it alot more than being one out of a trillion sets with some having similar effects to it, that you can gain access to relatively fast.

Except for mandatory crafting trait timers or perhaps travel constraints.

Holy Warpath

I strongly agree with this post, 90% of the sets are useless. What I believe ZOS would need to do in order to fix this issue is to do the same exact thing they did with Training set, where zone #1: Glenumbra, Auridon and Stonefalls should offer the same 3 sets, then so on with zone #2, 3, 4, 5 etc... because the craft-able sets are becoming more valuable.

WeerW3ir

i say lets Sunset the game ;D

Nestor

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I love having lots of sets but I do agree that it's a problem that so many of them are so bad.

It's not that the sets are bad, it's that they aren't considered "meta" so everyone looks down upon them and players that use them.

There are tons of good sets out there. They just aren't on Alcast builds so nobody sees any value in them.

There are plenty of objectively bad sets out there - it isn't that they simply aren't the popular meta (see Nahviintaas for perhaps the BiS example of an objectively atrocious set).

What you describe certainly does describe some sets that are otherwise on the cusp of viability but that's a much smaller subset within the overall universe of unused sets.

Some sets are also woefully under-tuned even using the 'spreadsheet balancing' principles that ZOS claims to use (see Grundwulf).

There are objectively bad sets out there, yes. I don't think I ever made that claim.

My whole point was that there is a segment of the population - probably louder than their actual population may suggest - that is BiS or nothing, and anything else is invalid, even if it is a viable (but not most-efficient) set.

I don't know every single set in the game off the top of my head to know how the percentages break down of what percentage of sets are BiS / meta, what percentage sets are non-meta but viable, and what percentage of sets are not up to standards for content.

Go on the UESP Build Editor and you will find more sets than you think get you into the 95th Percentile. After that, your Rotation and Playstyle can make up for any perceived set shortcomings

kind_hero

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I love having lots of sets but I do agree that it's a problem that so many of them are so bad.

It's not that the sets are bad, it's that they aren't considered "meta" so everyone looks down upon them and players that use them.

There are tons of good sets out there. They just aren't on Alcast builds so nobody sees any value in them.

Can you mention .. 10 such sets, please? I have tried many sets (playing since beta), yet only a fraction are worth keeping/using. And that fraction is getting smaller with each DLC.

One set I like, and only for the effect, is Unfathomable Darkness, the one that transforms you into a shadow for several seconds. I think sets like these are fun for casual playing, sometimes I use sets like these for the visual effect, but besides that, they are mostly worthless.

There are wasted opportunities, such as Pelinal, which could help with hybrid builds, or good sets which only work in groups. I really hope they will delete at least half of the sets from the game one day. They are a nightmare for crafting writs. Second, I am totally in for sets which give you a good bonus at a cost, like a debuff or other drawback. The current 5 piece bonuses are mostly trash. 7-8 piece super sets would also be cool. But the devs found an easy way that "works" and they stick with it.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Meta may change but power creep is generally temporary in sets. They sell you power creep and then nerf them later to move the meta. That way your less likely to leave or just dot in you "okay" sets. Then when you got the news stuff on all your characters, down swings the hammer! The forums light up with post like "I'll never love you again eso, meh!" And everyone moves on. Meanwhile the old old sets are like inverse beggars hanging out in zones "please, spare in inventory slot for my set, gods bless".

Vhozek

Armor sets sell DLCs.
They will always release sets.
A company's main job is to make profit, so they typically practice NEVER fixing old content.

Arunei

Vhale wrote: »

sets are tied to motifs? May as well have a new set along with the new look.

Not all sets are tied to Motifs, and some sets are in a style we don't have a matching Motif for, like the Lich set from CoH. Sets shouldn't be released just because they're being tied to some aesthetic, sets should be released because they offer something new to the game.

It would be really nice if they'd rework a lot of sets to be more worthwhile, especially crafted ones. It takes a lot of time and dedication to get a master crafter, and sure we can make some of the most solid gear like Julianos, Hund's, and others, but just as many are...eh. And yes, there are plenty of people who probably make good use of more niche sets, but I think it wouldn't be a bad thing to expand on a lot of sets and make it so they're interesting to more than just a niche group of people. Like someone else said, it would help build diversity if more sets could easily compete with the BiS stuff. When ten things could be considered BiS because of a bunch of different reasons and playstyles, it's more diverse and more inclusive than having three things be considered BiS because of maybe two reasons.

barney2525

They need more sets Because ... 90% of the current sets are useless