This game is balanced

mandricus

Let me start with a little story.

I log in order do to a quick battleground with my MagDK. It was parked on Bergama Wayshrine.
I log in very early in the morning and there are just two players dueling. A 1000CP and a 500 CP player. The 500 CP player, with a stamblade, is wrecking the other guy.
While I wait for the Battleground queue, I ask for a duel. Challenge accepted.
First duel, I win.
Second duel, he wins.
Third duel: as I notice he is basically using cloak only as his main form of defense, i slot a detect pot. At the right time, I pop the potion: game over. No way for him to cloak and escape, easy win.

He says "Mag DK need fix".

Now, this is an excellent example of a very common scenario.

A 500 cp player that probably has always played a stamblade only. He never played a MagDK, he lose a duel because I happen to know how to counter his playstyle, and as a result, he complains about the class being owerpowered, because he lost. Very typical. I say "MagDK is not OP. Moreover, is one of the hardest class to play". "Nah, Mag DK need fix". I turned around and went away.

Now, getting to the point, let me introduce myself.

I'm an althoolic.

I've 13 alts fully leveled, and when I say fully i mean it. A Stamina and a Magicka version of every class (and a dedicated PVE Healer as a bonus just to have it always ready when needed). Every toon has everything: all the skill points needed to unlock all the skills and all the passives, Psijic Skill Line maxed, Mage's Guild or Fighters Guild skill line fully leveled, Undaunted skill line maxed, vampirism or lycantrophy fully maxed when needed. Heck, every toon has also level 50 crafting on the main professions as a bonus, and also the 27 skill points needed to do max level daily crafting writs (because in order to mantain over the time 13 toons and rebuild them at every major patch / combat change, you need lot of gold tempers, and daily crafting writs are the best way to drop them).

Most importantly, I've spent countless hours on every single one of them, mostly playing battlegrounds.
Through the 5 years spent playing the game I've played lot of builds, tried lot of different playstiles, on every class/spec of the game.

No, I'm not a good player. I'm basically trash with every class.

But i'm consistently trash with every class, so I can compare the different performances on various classes, having a fixed benchmark: me playing as *** on every single one of them.

After 5 years I have now finally a rough idea of the playstyle and pro / cons of all the various specs, because I've played them all extensively. I think I finally have now the knowledge and the experience needed to say: every single class in this game has its pro and its cons, and, overall, in terms of pvp-wise class balance, this game is pretty well balanced.

I remember when I was playing my templar being wrecked by sorcerers, and thinking that sorcerers where OP.
Until I started to play a sorcerer, and I realized that playing a Stamsorc or a Magsorc it's not as easy as it looks.
I remeber being oneshotted by magblades or stamblades, thinking that the class was way overpowered, and that it was an unfair game.
Until I start playing a stamblade and a magblade myself, realizing that being squishy as ***, and having to rely on cloack or always keeping an eye on the position and distance of your shadowy disguise in order to be able to escape from dangerous situations is not as easy as it looks.
I remember complaining about how much were MagDKs overpowered , until I started playing it and realized that, at least to me, it's one of the hardest class to play and to master, and it take months and months of practice in order to learn how to use it at its full power (but when you are really, really good on a MagDK.. oh my.. how fun is to play it, i absolutely love it!).
I remember complaining about how owerpowered Stamden and StamCro where, until I started playing them. They are not owerpowered. They are may be, at the moment, the only two specs that are slightly overtuned, primarily due to one of two skills that needs a bit of tuning and tweaking, and that will be addressed in the next patch (did someone say "arctic blast"?) or in a next future.

Reading messages on this forum, it's pretty clear to me that most of the people complaining about class imbalance don't know the classes they are accusing of being owerpowered.
They die a lot by those classes simply because don't know how to properly counter them, then they come to this forum and complain about the class being OP.
Heck, they died, so the class has to be OP, right?

The grass is always greener on the other side. That's how it looks. That's what people tend to think, expecially when they have not enough knowledge.

I ask you a favour guys: stop complaining about classes being OP, expecially against classes that are already performing poorly.
There are no OP classes in ESO. There are just, at the moment, two slightly overtuned specs: Stamden and Stamcro. All the rest is pretty good and pretty balanced, with some class in need of a buff, not a nerf.

Most importantly: you don't need a StamDen or a StamCro in order to be effective. You can be damn good and have success with any class and any spec. It's just a matter of using the right build, the right skills and the right playstyle. I've seen crazy builds in battleground perform incredibly well, on any class, thanks to very clever builds and good players. I've seen stamina builds using destro or resto staves, i've seen templars bombing entire groups with solar barrage (but again, i've never been able to do it on my magplar, so it's not easy as it looks). I've seen hybrid builds using rapid regeneration and vigor to heal, at the same time performing incredibly well. I've seen people in NO-CP battlegrounds tanking 8 people at the same time and bring them down one by one. Let me tell you a little secret: It was not the class. It was not the build. It was the player. A mix of a good build, fast thinking, good hands and perfect timing.
Please accept the hard truth: it's not the classes, it's not the game. It's you.

I've accepted the truth: I'm trash at this game.
It's time for you to realize that you die because you need to improve, not because the opponent's classes are OP.


TLDR: PvP-wise, Eso class balancing is quite good. There are some slightly overtuned skills here and there, or some slightly overtuned class / set / skills combination that are very effective if used properly. Anyway, every spec and almost any build has it's own pro and cons. You can be successful with any class / any spec. It's the player that make the difference, not the class. Most of the people that complain about class imbalance do not have a good knowledge of the game, and most of the times they don't know at all the class they are complaining against.

Aertew

mandricus wrote: »

Now, getting to the point, let me introduce myself.

I'm an althoolic.

I've 13 alts fully leveled, and when I say fully i mean it. A Stamina and a Magicka version of every class (and a dedicated PVE Healer as a bonus just to have it always ready when needed). Every toon has everything: all the skill points needed to unlock all the skills and all the passives, Psijic Skill Line maxed, Mage's Guild or Fighters Guild skill line fully leveled, Undaunted skill line maxed, vampirism or lycantrophy fully maxed when needed. Heck, every toon has also level 50 crafting on the main professions as a bonus, and also the 27 skill points needed to do max level daily crafting writs (because in order to mantain over the time 13 toons and rebuild them at every major patch / combat change, you need lot of gold tempers, and daily crafting writs are the best way to drop them).

How do you get the skill points? Do you do main quests or skyshards. Also do you bother getting achievmets and completing zones on alts?

amm7sb14_ESO

The classes are balanced because there is no difference between them. Regardless of whatever class you play, you'll be running all the same skill effects on your build. Regardless of class, every tank will have the same toolkit. Every stam DPS will have the same toolkit. Every mag DPS will have the same toolkit. Every healer will have the same toolkit. You'll get it from either class ability, weapon abilities, or world abilities, but you'll be using the same skills, along with the same gear sets, the same glyphs, the same traits, the same mundus stones, the same race, and the same attribute distribution.

Really, the only differences will be, if you are stam whether you are using 2h or DW front bar, and if you are tank, if you'll be using lightning staff or ice staff back bar. Otherwise, there might be some minor details that are different, but for the most part it's going to be the same.

It's easy to balance when there is no class identity. There's 4 characters you can play, and the most significant difference between players will be the style pages they use for their appearance.

mandricus

Aertew wrote: »

How do you get the skill points? Do you do main quests or skyshards. Also do you bother getting achievmets and completing zones on alts?

it's very simple: on every alt I took the Pjisic quest at first.
In order to complete the Psijic quest, you have to travel to almost every region of Tamriel.

When I was on a zone, I took all the skyshads, all the lorebooks, all the dolmens, and I did the Public Dungeon's group event, then I moved to the next zone.
Rinse & Repeat.
One or two zones a day, only when I was in the mood of doing it.

In less than two weeks, with just 1 hour per day (more or less), you will have Mage's guild maxed, Fighters guild Maxed, Psijic Skill Maxed and plenty of skills points to spend. I found this as the most effective and less time-consuming way to raise a new toon, as you only pass 1 single time for every zone and do everything at the same time.

I usually do not care at all about quests / achievements. I level the alts just to do battlegrounds, so I only spend time on things that I need for being effective in combat and having all the passive / stats that I need.

mandricus

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

The classes are balanced because there is no difference between them. Regardless of whatever class you play, you'll be running all the same skill effects on your build. Regardless of class, every tank will have the same toolkit. Every stam DPS will have the same toolkit. Every mag DPS will have the same toolkit. Every healer will have the same toolkit. You'll get it from either class ability, weapon abilities, or world abilities, but you'll be using the same skills, along with the same gear sets, the same glyphs, the same traits, the same mundus stones, the same race, and the same attribute distribution.

This is false, plain and simple.

Mag classes are completely different worlds between each other.
MagDK is usually a melee fighter, while Magsorc or Magden are usually ranged.
Magblade can be either ranged or melee depending on your build, and uses cloack / shadowy disguise as evasion tools to avoid the incoming damage, while magplar on the other hand is usually melee, very static, not able to evade (unless you go vamp and slot mistform) and use clense / heals to heal through incoming damage.

Stamina builds are more similar, but the playstile of a Stamblade is completely different compared to the playstyle of a Stamden.
Moreover, playng a 1Hand and Shield stamina build is very different from playing a bow / 2h build. Bow builds are usually very mobile, while 1H+S are usually very static. With bow you rolldodge a lot and try to avoid damage, with 1H+S you just block and tank the incoming damage.

Classes playstyles too, in general, are very different, even on stamina builds. Playing a StamSorc, the king of mobility thanks to hurricane and streak, is very different from playing a 1H+S StamDK, where you usually are not mobile at all and have to use different strategies to face the incoming damage.

Looks like your comment is just pure misinformation, based on lack of knowledge of the game.

Mythreindeer

Dude if you can clear a zone of all skyshards, lorebooks, public dungeons, etc. in an hour or less than I give you mad props.

mandricus

Mythreindeer wrote: »

Dude if you can clear a zone of all skyshards, lorebooks, public dungeons, etc. in an hour or less than I give you mad props.

Doing boring things can deform your perception of time.
Use a stopwatch and try it yourself. You will find that it takes a lot less time than you think (I've done it, so i'm pretty sure about the outcome of this test).
I cleared 15 zones on 12 different characters = 180 zones cleared. I've a pretty good experience in doing it, so it may be that I'm now slightly quicker than you, but you'll become quicker too after 2 or 3 alts.

Jeremy

mandricus wrote: »

Let me start with a little story.

I log in order do to a quick battleground with my MagDK. It was parked on Bergama Wayshrine.
I log in very early in the morning and there are just two players dueling. A 1000CP and a 500 CP player. The 500 CP player, with a stamblade, is wrecking the other guy.
While I wait for the Battleground queue, I ask for a duel. Challenge accepted.
First duel, I win.
Second duel, he wins.
Third duel: as I notice he is basically using cloak only as his main form of defense, i slot a detect pot. At the right time, I pop the potion: game over. No way for him to cloak and escape, easy win.

He says "Mag DK need fix".

Now, this is an excellent example of a very common scenario.

A 500 cp player that probably has always played a stamblade only. He never played a MagDK, he lose a duel because I happen to know how to counter his playstyle, and as a result, he complains about the class being owerpowered, because he lost. Very typical. I say "MagDK is not OP. Moreover, is one of the hardest class to play". "Nah, Mag DK need fix". I turned around and went away.

Now, getting to the point, let me introduce myself.

I'm an althoolic.

I've 13 alts fully leveled, and when I say fully i mean it. A Stamina and a Magicka version of every class (and a dedicated PVE Healer as a bonus just to have it always ready when needed). Every toon has everything: all the skill points needed to unlock all the skills and all the passives, Psijic Skill Line maxed, Mage's Guild or Fighters Guild skill line fully leveled, Undaunted skill line maxed, vampirism or lycantrophy fully maxed when needed. Heck, every toon has also level 50 crafting on the main professions as a bonus, and also the 27 skill points needed to do max level daily crafting writs (because in order to mantain over the time 13 toons and rebuild them at every major patch / combat change, you need lot of gold tempers, and daily crafting writs are the best way to drop them).

Most importantly, I've spent countless hours on every single one of them, mostly playing battlegrounds.
Through the 5 years spent playing the game I've played lot of builds, tried lot of different playstiles, on every class/spec of the game.

No, I'm not a good player. I'm basically trash with every class.

But i'm consistently trash with every class, so I can compare the different performances on various classes, having a fixed benchmark: me playing as *** on every single one of them.

After 5 years I have now finally a rough idea of the playstyle and pro / cons of all the various specs, because I've played them all extensively. I think I finally have now the knowledge and the experience needed to say: every single class in this game has its pro and its cons, and, overall, in terms of pvp-wise class balance, this game is pretty well balanced.

I remember when I was playing my templar being wrecked by sorcerers, and thinking that sorcerers where OP.
Until I started to play a sorcerer, and I realized that playing a Stamsorc or a Magsorc it's not as easy as it looks.
I remeber being oneshotted by magblades or stamblades, thinking that the class was way overpowered, and that it was an unfair game.
Until I start playing a stamblade and a magblade myself, realizing that being squishy as ***, and having to rely on cloack or always keeping an eye on the position and distance of your shadowy disguise in order to be able to escape from dangerous situations is not as easy as it looks.
I remember complaining about how much were MagDKs overpowered , until I started playing it and realized that, at least to me, it's one of the hardest class to play and to master, and it take months and months of practice in order to learn how to use it at its full power (but when you are really, really good on a MagDK.. oh my.. how fun is to play it, i absolutely love it!).
I remember complaining about how owerpowered Stamden and StamCro where, until I started playing them. They are not owerpowered. They are may be, at the moment, the only two specs that are slightly overtuned, primarily due to one of two skills that needs a bit of tuning and tweaking, and that will be addressed in the next patch (did someone say "arctic blast"?) or in a next future.

Reading messages on this forum, it's pretty clear to me that most of the people complaining about class imbalance don't know the classes they are accusing of being owerpowered.
They die a lot by those classes simply because don't know how to properly counter them, then they come to this forum and complain about the class being OP.
Heck, they died, so the class has to be OP, right?

The grass is always greener on the other side. That's how it looks. That's what people tend to think, expecially when they have not enough knowledge.

I ask you a favour guys: stop complaining about classes being OP, expecially against classes that are already performing poorly.
There are no OP classes in ESO. There are just, at the moment, two slightly overtuned specs: Stamden and Stamcro. All the rest is pretty good and pretty balanced, with some class in need of a buff, not a nerf.

Most importantly: you don't need a StamDen or a StamCro in order to be effective. You can be damn good and have success with any class and any spec. It's just a matter of using the right build, the right skills and the right playstyle. I've seen crazy builds in battleground perform incredibly well, on any class, thanks to very clever builds and good players. I've seen stamina builds using destro or resto staves, i've seen templars bombing entire groups with solar barrage (but again, i've never been able to do it on my magplar, so it's not easy as it looks). I've seen hybrid builds using rapid regeneration and vigor to heal, at the same time performing incredibly well. I've seen people in NO-CP battlegrounds tanking 8 people at the same time and bring them down one by one. Let me tell you a little secret: It was not the class. It was not the build. It was the player. A mix of a good build, fast thinking, good hands and perfect timing.
Please accept the hard truth: it's not the classes, it's not the game. It's you.

I've accepted the truth: I'm trash at this game.
It's time for you to realize that you die because you need to improve, not because the opponent's classes are OP.


TLDR: PvP-wise, Eso class balancing is quite good. There are some slightly overtuned skills here and there, or some slightly overtuned class / set / skills combination that are very effective if used properly. Anyway, every spec and almost any build has it's own pro and cons. You can be successful with any class / any spec. It's the player that make the difference, not the class. Most of the people that complain about class imbalance do not have a good knowledge of the game, and most of the times they don't know at all the class they are complaining against.

I disagree, especially in regards to PvP. Certain classes have way better escape tools than others, which helps a lot, especially in PvP when getting outnumbered basically means death unless you can get away. And there is no counter balance to make up for their lack in that regard either.

Also, what ever battleground you saw one player tanking 8 people in, those 8 people must have been the worse players in ESO history. haha

Mahabahabtha

Alikr Duels are all about

"mine is longer"

amm7sb14_ESO

mandricus wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

The classes are balanced because there is no difference between them. Regardless of whatever class you play, you'll be running all the same skill effects on your build. Regardless of class, every tank will have the same toolkit. Every stam DPS will have the same toolkit. Every mag DPS will have the same toolkit. Every healer will have the same toolkit. You'll get it from either class ability, weapon abilities, or world abilities, but you'll be using the same skills, along with the same gear sets, the same glyphs, the same traits, the same mundus stones, the same race, and the same attribute distribution.

This is false, plain and simple.

Mag classes are completely different worlds between each other.
MagDK is usually a melee fighter, while Magsorc or Magden are usually ranged.
Magblade can be either ranged or melee depending on your build, and uses cloack / shadowy disguise as evasion tools to avoid the incoming damage, while magplar on the other hand is usually melee, very static, not able to evade (unless you go vamp and slot mistform) and use clense / heals to heal through incoming damage.

Stamina builds are more similar, but the playstile of a Stamblade is completely different compared to the playstyle of a Stamden.
Moreover, playng a 1Hand and Shield stamina build is very different from playing a bow / 2h build. Bow builds are usually very mobile, while 1H+S are usually very static. With bow you rolldodge a lot and try to avoid damage, with 1H+S you just block and tank the incoming damage.

Classes playstyles too, in general, are very different, even on stamina builds. Playing a StamSorc, the king of mobility thanks to hurricane and streak, is very different from playing a 1H+S StamDK, where you usually are not mobile at all and have to use different strategies to face the incoming damage.

Looks like your comment is just pure misinformation, based on lack of knowledge of the game.

"based on lack of knowledge of the game"

I've been around since beta, but go ahead I guess.

Next, if you're talking about DPS builds, nobody is going to be playing 1h / shield, so your entire point loses credibility at that point right there.

Melee or ranged, mag dps are all using staves. So they are all going to have the same abilities on their bar regardless. Range or melee doesn't change that. Unless you're talking about PVP, mag nightblade is going to be using cloak as a way to proc a crit, not for any sort of evasion.

The class identity in this game is minimal, to the point of nearly non-existent. I would know. I've been around since beta and I have numerous characters that play all different roles.

Kel

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

mandricus wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

The classes are balanced because there is no difference between them. Regardless of whatever class you play, you'll be running all the same skill effects on your build. Regardless of class, every tank will have the same toolkit. Every stam DPS will have the same toolkit. Every mag DPS will have the same toolkit. Every healer will have the same toolkit. You'll get it from either class ability, weapon abilities, or world abilities, but you'll be using the same skills, along with the same gear sets, the same glyphs, the same traits, the same mundus stones, the same race, and the same attribute distribution.

This is false, plain and simple.

Mag classes are completely different worlds between each other.
MagDK is usually a melee fighter, while Magsorc or Magden are usually ranged.
Magblade can be either ranged or melee depending on your build, and uses cloack / shadowy disguise as evasion tools to avoid the incoming damage, while magplar on the other hand is usually melee, very static, not able to evade (unless you go vamp and slot mistform) and use clense / heals to heal through incoming damage.

Stamina builds are more similar, but the playstile of a Stamblade is completely different compared to the playstyle of a Stamden.
Moreover, playng a 1Hand and Shield stamina build is very different from playing a bow / 2h build. Bow builds are usually very mobile, while 1H+S are usually very static. With bow you rolldodge a lot and try to avoid damage, with 1H+S you just block and tank the incoming damage.

Classes playstyles too, in general, are very different, even on stamina builds. Playing a StamSorc, the king of mobility thanks to hurricane and streak, is very different from playing a 1H+S StamDK, where you usually are not mobile at all and have to use different strategies to face the incoming damage.

Looks like your comment is just pure misinformation, based on lack of knowledge of the game.

"based on lack of knowledge of the game"

I've been around since beta, but go ahead I guess.

Next, if you're talking about DPS builds, nobody is going to be playing 1h / shield, so your entire point loses credibility at that point right there.

Melee or ranged, mag dps are all using staves. So they are all going to have the same abilities on their bar regardless. Range or melee doesn't change that. Unless you're talking about PVP, mag nightblade is going to be using cloak as a way to proc a crit, not for any sort of evasion.

The class identity in this game is minimal, to the point of nearly non-existent. I would know. I've been around since beta and I have numerous characters that play all different roles.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/573851/u29-pve-dps-roundup#latest

Yep, this game is totally balanced 🙄

amm7sb14_ESO

Kel wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

mandricus wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

The classes are balanced because there is no difference between them. Regardless of whatever class you play, you'll be running all the same skill effects on your build. Regardless of class, every tank will have the same toolkit. Every stam DPS will have the same toolkit. Every mag DPS will have the same toolkit. Every healer will have the same toolkit. You'll get it from either class ability, weapon abilities, or world abilities, but you'll be using the same skills, along with the same gear sets, the same glyphs, the same traits, the same mundus stones, the same race, and the same attribute distribution.

This is false, plain and simple.

Mag classes are completely different worlds between each other.
MagDK is usually a melee fighter, while Magsorc or Magden are usually ranged.
Magblade can be either ranged or melee depending on your build, and uses cloack / shadowy disguise as evasion tools to avoid the incoming damage, while magplar on the other hand is usually melee, very static, not able to evade (unless you go vamp and slot mistform) and use clense / heals to heal through incoming damage.

Stamina builds are more similar, but the playstile of a Stamblade is completely different compared to the playstyle of a Stamden.
Moreover, playng a 1Hand and Shield stamina build is very different from playing a bow / 2h build. Bow builds are usually very mobile, while 1H+S are usually very static. With bow you rolldodge a lot and try to avoid damage, with 1H+S you just block and tank the incoming damage.

Classes playstyles too, in general, are very different, even on stamina builds. Playing a StamSorc, the king of mobility thanks to hurricane and streak, is very different from playing a 1H+S StamDK, where you usually are not mobile at all and have to use different strategies to face the incoming damage.

Looks like your comment is just pure misinformation, based on lack of knowledge of the game.

"based on lack of knowledge of the game"

I've been around since beta, but go ahead I guess.

Next, if you're talking about DPS builds, nobody is going to be playing 1h / shield, so your entire point loses credibility at that point right there.

Melee or ranged, mag dps are all using staves. So they are all going to have the same abilities on their bar regardless. Range or melee doesn't change that. Unless you're talking about PVP, mag nightblade is going to be using cloak as a way to proc a crit, not for any sort of evasion.

The class identity in this game is minimal, to the point of nearly non-existent. I would know. I've been around since beta and I have numerous characters that play all different roles.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/573851/u29-pve-dps-roundup#latest

Yep, this game is totally balanced 🙄

This graph is separated by mag / stam, which are 2 completely different roles, and were separated by my original statement. So this contradicts none of what I said.

mandricus

To you both: what is not clear enough about the sentence "PvP-Wise"?
You are talking about DPS and PVE. PvE and PvP are two completely different games.
[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

RandomKodiak

mandricus wrote: »

To you both: what is not clear enough about the sentence "PvP-Wise"?
You are talking about DPS and PVE. PvE and PvP are two completely different games.
[snip]/quote]

And that right there is the BIGEST problem right now and has been for a while since the PvE side of the game is the biggest number of players and subscribers.

Parasaurolophus

I do not agree with you. I have been playing since the release of the game on NB and I remember very well a lot of unfair nerfs.
You say that you have a great experience of playing for 5 years, but over 5 years the balance in the game has changed many times. Just tell me where is the balance when:
1) Heavy armor. Only stamina can wear heavy armor, because all that loses is 15% wpd. Sustain is easy to learn. It turns out that heavy armor for stamina has a lot of benefits with minor penalties.

2) You say that the game has a good balance, but you forget that pvp has been deadlocked more than once due to balance. Permablock, oblivion damage, werewolves, and now the procsets are good. In all of these cases, the balance has never been good. Worse, he directly changed the playstyle a lot, making it easier and worse.

Let's take a look at the classes, what makes a class good for pvp? Healing burst, burst damage that ticks over time, allowing you to deal damage from two skills at a time. Also the convenience of skills and buffs. Now compare NB and Templar with Warden in this regard.

Extinct_Solo_Player

mandricus wrote: »

Let me start with a little story.

I log in order do to a quick battleground with my MagDK. It was parked on Bergama Wayshrine.
I log in very early in the morning and there are just two players dueling. A 1000CP and a 500 CP player. The 500 CP player, with a stamblade, is wrecking the other guy.
While I wait for the Battleground queue, I ask for a duel. Challenge accepted.
First duel, I win.
Second duel, he wins.
Third duel: as I notice he is basically using cloak only as his main form of defense, i slot a detect pot. At the right time, I pop the potion: game over. No way for him to cloak and escape, easy win.

He says "Mag DK need fix".

Now, this is an excellent example of a very common scenario.

A 500 cp player that probably has always played a stamblade only. He never played a MagDK, he lose a duel because I happen to know how to counter his playstyle, and as a result, he complains about the class being owerpowered, because he lost. Very typical. I say "MagDK is not OP. Moreover, is one of the hardest class to play". "Nah, Mag DK need fix". I turned around and went away.

Now, getting to the point, let me introduce myself.

I'm an althoolic.

I've 13 alts fully leveled, and when I say fully i mean it. A Stamina and a Magicka version of every class (and a dedicated PVE Healer as a bonus just to have it always ready when needed). Every toon has everything: all the skill points needed to unlock all the skills and all the passives, Psijic Skill Line maxed, Mage's Guild or Fighters Guild skill line fully leveled, Undaunted skill line maxed, vampirism or lycantrophy fully maxed when needed. Heck, every toon has also level 50 crafting on the main professions as a bonus, and also the 27 skill points needed to do max level daily crafting writs (because in order to mantain over the time 13 toons and rebuild them at every major patch / combat change, you need lot of gold tempers, and daily crafting writs are the best way to drop them).

Most importantly, I've spent countless hours on every single one of them, mostly playing battlegrounds.
Through the 5 years spent playing the game I've played lot of builds, tried lot of different playstiles, on every class/spec of the game.

No, I'm not a good player. I'm basically trash with every class.

But i'm consistently trash with every class, so I can compare the different performances on various classes, having a fixed benchmark: me playing as *** on every single one of them.

After 5 years I have now finally a rough idea of the playstyle and pro / cons of all the various specs, because I've played them all extensively. I think I finally have now the knowledge and the experience needed to say: every single class in this game has its pro and its cons, and, overall, in terms of pvp-wise class balance, this game is pretty well balanced.

I remember when I was playing my templar being wrecked by sorcerers, and thinking that sorcerers where OP.
Until I started to play a sorcerer, and I realized that playing a Stamsorc or a Magsorc it's not as easy as it looks.
I remeber being oneshotted by magblades or stamblades, thinking that the class was way overpowered, and that it was an unfair game.
Until I start playing a stamblade and a magblade myself, realizing that being squishy as ***, and having to rely on cloack or always keeping an eye on the position and distance of your shadowy disguise in order to be able to escape from dangerous situations is not as easy as it looks.
I remember complaining about how much were MagDKs overpowered , until I started playing it and realized that, at least to me, it's one of the hardest class to play and to master, and it take months and months of practice in order to learn how to use it at its full power (but when you are really, really good on a MagDK.. oh my.. how fun is to play it, i absolutely love it!).
I remember complaining about how owerpowered Stamden and StamCro where, until I started playing them. They are not owerpowered. They are may be, at the moment, the only two specs that are slightly overtuned, primarily due to one of two skills that needs a bit of tuning and tweaking, and that will be addressed in the next patch (did someone say "arctic blast"?) or in a next future.

Reading messages on this forum, it's pretty clear to me that most of the people complaining about class imbalance don't know the classes they are accusing of being owerpowered.
They die a lot by those classes simply because don't know how to properly counter them, then they come to this forum and complain about the class being OP.
Heck, they died, so the class has to be OP, right?

The grass is always greener on the other side. That's how it looks. That's what people tend to think, expecially when they have not enough knowledge.

I ask you a favour guys: stop complaining about classes being OP, expecially against classes that are already performing poorly.
There are no OP classes in ESO. There are just, at the moment, two slightly overtuned specs: Stamden and Stamcro. All the rest is pretty good and pretty balanced, with some class in need of a buff, not a nerf.

Most importantly: you don't need a StamDen or a StamCro in order to be effective. You can be damn good and have success with any class and any spec. It's just a matter of using the right build, the right skills and the right playstyle. I've seen crazy builds in battleground perform incredibly well, on any class, thanks to very clever builds and good players. I've seen stamina builds using destro or resto staves, i've seen templars bombing entire groups with solar barrage (but again, i've never been able to do it on my magplar, so it's not easy as it looks). I've seen hybrid builds using rapid regeneration and vigor to heal, at the same time performing incredibly well. I've seen people in NO-CP battlegrounds tanking 8 people at the same time and bring them down one by one. Let me tell you a little secret: It was not the class. It was not the build. It was the player. A mix of a good build, fast thinking, good hands and perfect timing.
Please accept the hard truth: it's not the classes, it's not the game. It's you.

I've accepted the truth: I'm trash at this game.
It's time for you to realize that you die because you need to improve, not because the opponent's classes are OP.


TLDR: PvP-wise, Eso class balancing is quite good. There are some slightly overtuned skills here and there, or some slightly overtuned class / set / skills combination that are very effective if used properly. Anyway, every spec and almost any build has it's own pro and cons. You can be successful with any class / any spec. It's the player that make the difference, not the class. Most of the people that complain about class imbalance do not have a good knowledge of the game, and most of the times they don't know at all the class they are complaining against.

necromancer class wants to know your location

Pauwer

Like i always say, play the class you play in pve in pvp too. Any class is good if you know how to play it.

I have 18 pvp toons, all classes and stuff. For me it is like this: when i focus playing my magden in one campaing, at the end of the campaing i'm convinced it is my best toon and so great. But i'm also a little sick of playing it and choose stamplar on the next campaing. By the end of that campaing i know stamplar is the most op thing ever and when logged in on my magden to get the monthly transmutes, i struggle and think how could i ever play well on magden. But im also a little bored of playing the stamplar now and choose stamsorc for the next campaing. And so the circle continues as before.

MerguezMan

Dear OP,

If I get what you say ... there are some overtuned specs, some classes that need a buff ... and that is "balanced",
From your experience of running through overland content and battlegrounds with each class.

I have also levelled each class and tried various specs, with different playstyles, also realised that some class skills are overtuned, some need a buff, but came to the overall conclusion that classes are NOT balanced when a class needs several buffs while another has several overtuned skills.

May I suggest a little experience ?

- Take each toon to vet Wayrest sewers 1, solo. Try to clear it in reasonable time (20-30min should be enough, providing you have fully leveled and geared toons with plenty CP), no werewolf/vampire cheese, no skipping (invisibility is for surprise attacks, not to run through enemies unnoticed).

(you get 1 skill point per toon, levelled xp and loot, that's not wasted time - you may try that in another dungeon, assuming it's on veteran setting and soloable, ofc, but I insist on running the exact same content with each toon, for comparison)

Can you still honestly claim you have balanced game,
comparing stamDK run with stamWarden run, Magplar run, PetSorc run, ... ?

Have you tried Upper Skyreach (Craglorn), or vet Vateshran (Markarth), or anything that goes beyond basic easy content with these toons ? Because comparing class abilities on the basis of content anyone can clear may not give the same results as comparing these same abilities in "challenging" content.

You may say this is PVE and you enjoy more PVP, indeed. But it would also be hard to compare PVP matches with slightly random matchmaking where you'd be lucky facing new players or builds that lack counters for your toons. At least solo PVE allows a "same basis" comparison.

So, what is the outcome of this experience ?

[Edit] typo

mandricus

MerguezMan wrote: »

Dear OP,

So, what is the outcome of this experience ?

Pointless. You are talking about PvE, I'm talking about PvP.
We are on different pages.

mandricus

Pauwer wrote: »

I have 18 pvp toons, all classes and stuff. For me it is like this: when i focus playing my magden in one campaing, at the end of the campaing i'm convinced it is my best toon and so great. But i'm also a little sick of playing it and choose stamplar on the next campaing. By the end of that campaing i know stamplar is the most op thing ever and when logged in on my magden to get the monthly transmutes, i struggle and think how could i ever play well on magden. But im also a little bored of playing the stamplar now and choose stamsorc for the next campaing. And so the circle continues as before.

Exactly!
I'm experiencing the same exact thing, and after years I finally understood that any class / spec can be good, and they are all incredibly fun, very different from each other and every spec has his own very unique playstile.
You can be successful and have fun with anything, It's just a matter of training, practice and experience.
BTW, I've 18 toons too, but only 13 fully leveled at the moment

mandricus

BrownChicken wrote: »

1) Heavy armor. Only stamina can wear heavy armor, because all that loses is 15% wpd. Sustain is easy to learn. It turns out that heavy armor for stamina has a lot of benefits with minor penalties.

I think that in Cyrodiil, Imperial City and Battlegrounds 90% of mag builds are wearing heavy armor. Sadly is the only way to be able to survive, with Buffer of the Swift being of the few viable light sets alternative for mag builds. MagSorc is probably one of the few mag classes that can afford to run light, thanks to shields, and the ability to streak out from LoS when needed, and Magblade too to some extent, being able to disappear and relocate itself when in trouble. All the rest have to wear heavy if they want to be able to stay alive.

BrownChicken wrote: »

Let's take a look at the classes, what makes a class good for pvp? Healing burst, burst damage that ticks over time, allowing you to deal damage from two skills at a time. Also the convenience of skills and buffs. Now compare NB and Templar with Warden in this regard.

Warden has Scorch which is an incredibly useful skill for delayed burst, which comes very handy for deadly burst combos, expecially on a Stamden.

However, you have to take into account that a Wardens do not have the ability to cloak and disappear, or to transport itself to a safe location with Shadow Image like a Nightblade. Comparing it to Templars, Warden does not have the ability to cleanse 5 debuff with a single click like a templar (yes it has Betty which provides a free cleanse, but only 1 debuff at a time every 5 seconds), or the burst heal that Breath of Life / Honor the dead provides (Fungal Growth is not comparable by any mean). Moreover, you have to consider that Warden does not have a class finisher, nor for Stamina Spec nor for Magicka spec. Stamblade has Killer's blade. Magblade has Impale, which is Killer's Blade on steroids, by far one of the best finishers in the whole game, thank to his insane ability to finish opponent from sidereal distance without they even noticing most of the times that you are finishing them. Magplar has the notorious Jesus Beam, again one of the best finishers in the game.
As I said, every class has its Pro and its Cons.

ZOS_ConnorG

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Parasaurolophus

I think that in Cyrodiil, Imperial City and Battlegrounds 90% of mag builds are wearing heavy armor. Sadly is the only way to be able to survive, with Buffer of the Swift being of the few viable light sets alternative for mag builds. MagSorc is probably one of the few mag classes that can afford to run light, thanks to shields, and the ability to streak out from LoS when needed, and Magblade too to some extent, being able to disappear and relocate itself when in trouble. All the rest have to wear heavy if they want to be able to stay alive.

Are you talking about the time before the Zaan / Veteshar / Malacath builds? Because before the triumph of procsets, magic felt really bad. Again, the penalties for magic in heavy armor are much stronger than for stamina.

Warden has Scorch which is an incredibly useful skill for delayed burst, which comes very handy for deadly burst combos, expecially on a Stamden.

I'm talking about this. Nightblade does not have good Dot Damage or Burst Damage in one moment. Merciless Resolve is the only skill of this kind. But it needs to be accumulated and it is easy to dodge it.

However, you have to take into account that a Wardens do not have the ability to cloak and disappear, or to transport itself to a safe location with Shadow Image like a Nightblade. Comparing it to Templars, Warden does not have the ability to cleanse 5 debuff with a single click like a templar (yes it has Betty which provides a free cleanse, but only 1 debuff at a time every 5 seconds), or the burst heal that Breath of Life / Honor the dead provides (Fungal Growth is not comparable by any mean). Moreover, you have to consider that Warden does not have a class finisher, nor for Stamina Spec nor for Magicka spec. Stamblade has Killer's blade. Magblade has Impale, which is Killer's Blade on steroids, by far one of the best finishers in the whole game, thank to his insane ability to finish opponent from sidereal distance without they even noticing most of the times that you are finishing them. Magplar has the notorious Jesus Beam, again one of the best finishers in the game.
As I said, every class has its Pro and its Cons.

Oh ... this all sounds great, but only in words. In practice, the merits of some classes turn out to be much more useful than the merits of other classes.
Shadow Image is useless. No one good pvp player will have problems with shadow images. It is quite easy to detect it from any AoE or Dot skill. It doesn't even remove snare.
Compared to templar, as a rule, you do not need to remove a large number of negative effects from yourself. Plus, netch is free. Wardens also have a polar wind, which gives an additional hot.
Now it makes no difference when the 2h line finisher can be used. In addition, most finishers work at 25% HP, while the Executioner works at 50% HP.
You see, the problem of balance is very complex. Warden in medium armor with duals will be the same trash.