u29 PvE DPS Roundup

furiouslog

I've posted this sort of stuff before, but I did a little something different this time. Using ESOLogs, I got parse distributions for all classes (for vSS non-HM only - grabbing everything is becoming too onerous). Normally, I just aggregate the results. This time, I gathered the percentile distributions to calculate what the top 1000 players in each class whose parses were logged in vSS were doing, which removed the effects of the overrepresented classes. Here are the results.



This approach controls for the natural tendency of players who participate in end game content to gravitate to classes that do higher DPS in that patch. The vast majority of people doing VSS were primarily playing Magcro (22%), Magsorc (25%), or Magblade (16%). All mag classes outplayed the stam classes, across the board.

Side thoughts:

- Templar sat in the middle for both - probably given that both are relying on jabs/sweeps as their primary source of damage. They are both basically operating from melee range, which can hurt DPS in VSS (as we see from basically every stam class).
- The very best Magplar did better than the very best Magcro. Way to represent. I'd love to know how they did it.(disclosure: I main magplar)
- Although the top Magden players rank high, the class is generally underrepresented in trials compared to Magplar and MagDK. Weird.
- Stam classes make up 16% of the participants, undoubtedly to their inability to generate the DPS perceived to be necessary to clear.

I think this demonstrates clearly how ridiculously unbalanced the ESO classes are. My fear is that with the upcoming CP nerfs, that the continued "reduction in power for the high end player" is going to keep rippling down to the mid-range endgame players, and make these performance gaps continue to get worse and worse, forcing people to grind alts just to get into trials, and driving further homogenization of the classes best built with the toolkits to do end game content.

If the intent of the game is to allow for a given class to be able to clear all content given talent and an understanding of the mechanics, I don't think the current mix of class, set, and combat design is achieving that. All of the nerfs and adjustments appear to be made with the top tier players in mind, who are cranking out crazy numbers on one or two classes, but those nerfs end up hitting everyone.

I'm sure if we were able to grab PVP numbers, we might similar trends going the other way, with Stam on top and Mag mostly on bottom, just with the same kind of interclass performance. The recent post for U29 aggregating the PVP performance tiers would appear to confirm that.

ZOS, why are these numbers so darn far apart? Why is performance so radically different for PVP and PVE? Weren't the CP and stat baseline changes supposed to handle some of these issues? Or is mag meant for trials and Stam meant for PVP and that's all it's ever going to be?

I don't actually expect a response, but c'mon. Do something.

cptqrk

Maybe it's just me being new to the game, but the disparity between magic vs stamina is interesting to me.

Any reasons for this? I would like to know and maybe go respec my main...

nukk3r

cptqrk wrote: »

Maybe it's just me being new to the game, but the disparity between magic vs stamina is interesting to me.

Any reasons for this? I would like to know and maybe go respec my main...

Like OP said, ranged classes can do damage and play the mechanics at the same time. While as melee you have to stay close do do damage and sometimes you can't even hit the boss with anything but Endless Hail and Poison Injection.

RogueShark

nukk3r wrote: »

cptqrk wrote: »

Maybe it's just me being new to the game, but the disparity between magic vs stamina is interesting to me.

Any reasons for this? I would like to know and maybe go respec my main...

Like OP said, ranged classes can do damage and play the mechanics at the same time. While as melee you have to stay close do do damage and sometimes you can't even hit the boss with anything but Endless Hail and Poison Injection.

On top of this, it's easier to support mag. Trials generally need ranged DPS for mechs; mag can do melee DPS easier and better than stam can do ranged. So you generally want some mag or ranged... but it's pointless to split group DPS types. For example, stam groups want alkosh/tremorscale; a full mag group can have supports wear other sets as mag pen caps without alkosh. You also can't really have a stam DPS in zen or other "support" DPS sets. Mag also tends to have better cleave/aoe.

The issue with mag outperforming stam in PvE goes far beyond being able to do ranged damage, unfortunately.

Noszet

kek StamDK

Kel

Noszet wrote: »

kek StamDK

Shocked by the difference between Mag and Stam DK.
Same class yet worlds apart.

I guess you can say that about all classes.

DinoZavr

CP2.0 nerfed penetration you could get from CP from 5,280 downto 1,400, so stamina classes need extra pen from tanks' or support DPS Alkosh and crusher enchant on infused Torugs weapon.
Nowadays achievement dedicated guilds say: "NO STAM!", as magicka does not require such extent of support as they get their pen from Light Armor passives.
U30 will cut those humble 1,400 pen into pathetic 700, so stamina DPS should have wear Spriggans (it is a good set, but still inferior to Rele, AY and better options (if not underpen)).
You underpen - your DPS decreases, you use inferior sets to get 18,200 pen - same result, your DPS decreases.
I placed one discussion about stamina struggling to reach pen cap here in General Discussions and another one in the PTS subforum.
Futile.

What Zenimax could do is to add pen bonus per a piece of medium armor and pen problem solved.
(most affected are stamDKs and stamplars, as they dont have reliable Major Breach sources, other than Caltrops and the debuff lasts for only 4 seconds. using Night Mother's Gaze for this debuff all the times means using inferior set and, again, DPS lowers,
this explains why magplar is superior than a stamplar: underpen).

Jackey

PVE? Play magcro
PVP? Play stamcro

DinoZavr

StamDKs really need some love, or ZOS should grant Bislobo a special title: "The Last of the StamDKs".

furiouslog

RogueShark wrote: »

nukk3r wrote: »

cptqrk wrote: »

Maybe it's just me being new to the game, but the disparity between magic vs stamina is interesting to me.

Any reasons for this? I would like to know and maybe go respec my main...

Like OP said, ranged classes can do damage and play the mechanics at the same time. While as melee you have to stay close do do damage and sometimes you can't even hit the boss with anything but Endless Hail and Poison Injection.

On top of this, it's easier to support mag. Trials generally need ranged DPS for mechs; mag can do melee DPS easier and better than stam can do ranged. So you generally want some mag or ranged... but it's pointless to split group DPS types. For example, stam groups want alkosh/tremorscale; a full mag group can have supports wear other sets as mag pen caps without alkosh. You also can't really have a stam DPS in zen or other "support" DPS sets. Mag also tends to have better cleave/aoe.

The issue with mag outperforming stam in PvE goes far beyond being able to do ranged damage, unfortunately.

I agree with this as well. FWIW, there is a lot more going on under the hood of this issue than I can certainly intuit by myself - someone brought up pen, which is another contributor. If they buff pen though, then stam gets even stronger in PVP. I'm already getting hit with 5K Dizzys with 35000 physical resistance as it is. My recap always reads like this: Dizzy Dizzy Shalks Executioner.

PVE is supposed to put out high sustained damage. PVP needs burst to be successful. There are clear winners class-wise for both of these things even after balancing out the stam/mag issue. I just wish in all of those spreadsheets ZOS keeps that ostensibly keep everything balanced that they would either do a better job at figuring it out, or just admit, "guess what, some classes do this, others do that, and that's just the way it is". My very first toon was a stamblade, I rolled it when I bought the game right out of beta. I rolled a magplar and started playing that because I found it a lot more fun, and it was an effective soloist. Since then, I've rolled 12 alts, mostly because my magplar has seen big ups and downs over time, but I honestly wish I could just play that, so I can clear some damn vet trial achievements and focus on it for PVP as well. I have clears all spread out over different toons because the game constantly changes class and set performance by such large numbers that it's impossible to settle down unless you are one of those guys who can pump out 150 APM while fighting other humans or dealing with a load of complex one shot mechanics. That's not me.

The ranking of the classes did not surprise me so much, but the magnitude of the gaps definitely did. It's a disservice to ZOS's customers to market this game as one where you get to play the way you want, or play the class you want. You can do that, just expect to spend a lot more time dying or searching for groups and guilds willing to take you.

kringled_1

I suspect the magnitude of the gaps is a bit exaggerated by player selection issues - i.e. a lot of the better players have options and are picking the higher performing specs. People who are running in guilds/groups that seriously optimize will be in all magicka builds, even if its a quick vSS non HM run to farm gear for someone. When I've been in recent runs with stamina builds, those are mostly groups/guilds with much less vDLC trial experience, much less group set and composition control, and lower damage.

furiouslog

kringled_1 wrote: »

I suspect the magnitude of the gaps is a bit exaggerated by player selection issues - i.e. a lot of the better players have options and are picking the higher performing specs. People who are running in guilds/groups that seriously optimize will be in all magicka builds, even if its a quick vSS non HM run to farm gear for someone. When I've been in recent runs with stamina builds, those are mostly groups/guilds with much less vDLC trial experience, much less group set and composition control, and lower damage.

That might be a contributor, but constraining to the top 1000 in each class mitigates that. However, the point is taken.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

And that's why the only spots in raid groups (organised) these days are for magcros.....I mean...come on...

FantasticFreddie

When you compare the utility of each class the gap gets even wider. The only dps classes that bring meaningful class buffs are sorc, Templar (but can be easily brought by a healer) or a cro.
Nightblafes bring nothing to a magicka team, wardens bring minor toughness but a healer does it 10x better and you often don't need it.
Cro brings AOE major breech and aoe major vulnerability

Everest_Lionheart

I suspect that Magplar is using a different choice of dots is a completely optimized group. People overlook vampires bane and run circle of protection for the extra dot instead. Vampires bane is fire damage and as such gets boosted by the fire damage boosts provided by DK from engulfing flames plus burning status. Also if DK is running Zen’s with full stacks that’s another 5% damage boost. Should also mention Encratis here as well which makes its way into any optimized group for another 5% boost. Without all the boosts vampires bane is just another dot, but it outperforms all other class dots by a mile with all the extra boosts.

MagDK numbers seem a bit low but most high end groups only have one running buff sets like Zen’s and/or MK so their personal damage takes a hit but group damage gets an insane boost. If more DK were in pure damage sets they would move up 3-4K more dps overall possibly more.

Magcro is a beast and it’s numbers are steadily climbing especially since more healers are running RO and tanks are now running catalyst. This is allowing Cro’s to wear full damage sets and basically parse it out start to finish. The popular dot build combined with serious group buffs has them over performing slightly. I know because I play one myself, being free of Catalyst and MA has unleashed the beast. Cro was a beast in 4 man already and now shines in 12 man. The trade off being how challenging pulling off a great Cro rotation can be, but once you’ve got it, you are a superstar.

Magden I suspect is in that lower place also because it’s rotation can be unforgiving, but also many people are starting to run a brittle build which tanks personal dps but massively boosts group DPS. That’s the trick to trials now, optimization.

And that’s where stam gets left in the dust. There aren’t enough group sets that can boost martial damage for everyone. Each stam toon has to wear their own individual set to get those benefits. Stam needs more than more pen or higher weapon damage to compete, they need strong support sets to make the play style more viable. They can parse hard on the dummy but underperform in content. The exact opposite of the mag classes.

furiouslog

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

I suspect that Magcro is using a different choice of dots is a completely optimized group. People overlook vampires bane and run circle of protection for the extra dot instead. Vampires bane is fire damage and as such gets boosted by the fire damage boosts provided by DK from engulfing flames plus burning status. Also if DK is running Zen’s with full stacks that’s another 5% damage boost. Should also mention Encratis here as well which makes its way into any optimized group for another 5% boost. Without all the boosts vampires bane is just another dot, but it outperforms all other class dots by a mile with all the extra boosts.

MagDK numbers seem a bit low but most high end groups only have one running buff sets like Zen’s and/or MK so their personal damage takes a hit but group damage gets an insane boost. If more DK were in pure damage sets they would move up 3-4K more dps overall possibly more.

Magcro is a beast and it’s numbers are steadily climbing especially since more healers are running RO and tanks are now running catalyst. This is allowing Cro’s to wear full damage sets and basically parse it out start to finish. The popular dot build combined with serious group buffs has them over performing slightly. I know because I play one myself, being free of Catalyst and MA has unleashed the beast. Cro was a beast in 4 man already and now shines in 12 man. The trade off being how challenging pulling off a great Cro rotation can be, but once you’ve got it, you are a superstar.

Magden I suspect is in that lower place also because it’s rotation can be unforgiving, but also many people are starting to run a brittle build which tanks personal dps but massively boosts group DPS. That’s the trick to trials now, optimization.

And that’s where stam gets left in the dust. There aren’t enough group sets that can boost martial damage for everyone. Each stam toon has to wear their own individual set to get those benefits. Stam needs more than more pen or higher weapon damage to compete, they need strong support sets to make the play style more viable. They can parse hard on the dummy but underperform in content. The exact opposite of the mag classes.

Thanks for sharing that. A lot of the top groups seem to be 6 magcros, 1 magden, and 1 magblade/magsorc. Depends on the trial too. vHOF had quite a few runs with 5 magcros/4magblades with a single warden healer.

zvavi

One thing a friend pointed out is that stam dk in those logs might be tanks spamming stonefist for the debuff.

iksde

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

When you compare the utility of each class the gap gets even wider. The only dps classes that bring meaningful class buffs are sorc, Templar (but can be easily brought by a healer) or a cro.
Nightblafes bring nothing to a magicka team, wardens bring minor toughness but a healer does it 10x better and you often don't need it.
Cro brings AOE major breech and aoe major vulnerability

and dont forget macro fit very well for most support dps sets like catalyst, MA, maybe even Zen could be etc while still keeping his high dps at once while for other classes it is bigger dps loss

PigofSteel

So they nerf even more. Interesting we will see who will play veteran dlc dungeon and trials... I guess people will play only normal modes. I guess they want us to use 2x crit chance sets and sharpened weapons with lover mundus like i see it...

Everest_Lionheart

PigofSteel wrote: »

So they nerf even more. Interesting we will see who will play veteran dlc dungeon and trials... I guess people will play only normal modes. I guess they want us to use 2x crit chance sets and sharpened weapons with lover mundus like i see it...

Once you grasp the mechs it’s not so bad. What they have done is made it so that mid tier can’t just burn through like the upper tier can. None of the changes will affect the top players in any significant way. The only thing that the crit and CP changes managed to do was move the goal posts for the middle, but once you’ve caught up or adjusted you play style a bit none of it is really hard outside of vSS HM portal final boss and solo portal magblade in vCR+3.

I’ve managed several trifecta runs in vet dungeons since the current patch while under the DPS soft cap including SCP, Fang Lair and Frostvault. I’m progging vSS HM’s and have clears on all but final boss just this week. VAS2 is still out of reach at the moment but it’s team errors in execute holding us back. I am a solo portal magblade for vCR3 and it’s hit or miss down there but it’s a question of reps as I’ve only been serious about the class for about 3 weeks now. When I dies it’s less to do with nerfs and more to do with colossal unforced errors in unforgiving situations or sometimes just bad RNG. VCR3 will teach you all about bad RNG when you get fire before you can shed ice and and orb spawns on your head.

But honestly though hard modes are everything you would expect them to be while you learn mechs and once you clear them you realize just how simple it was. Most mechs are there to force you to panic and make errors. Eliminate the errors and overcome the challenge. It’s that simple.

EmEm_Oh

cptqrk wrote: »

Maybe it's just me being new to the game, but the disparity between magic vs stamina is interesting to me.

Any reasons for this? I would like to know and maybe go respec my main...

Stam toons tend to be in the position to take more damage as they are closer to the main damage dealers (tend to stay in the dmg areas more and longer), where magicka toons tend to be away from most of the damage (buff, then come in for a short period then get out, rinse, repeat). This isn't ALWAYS the case but I've observed this a lot in pvp or pve.

iksde

PigofSteel wrote: »

So they nerf even more. Interesting we will see who will play veteran dlc dungeon and trials... I guess people will play only normal modes. I guess they want us to use 2x crit chance sets and sharpened weapons with lover mundus like i see it...

it is already efficient, one of the best setups to run on crit classes with medusa and mother sorrow with precise weapon and thief mundus if you dont have siroria or have no use of sioria because of mechanics as for mag builds

OutLaw_Nynx

Sad StamDK noises

Vaoh

Biggest factor is penetration.

Unless Mobs have their Phys Pen dropped from 18K down to at least 15K, Magicka will always be the way to go. Same thing especially in solo play like Vateshran.

furiouslog

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

PigofSteel wrote: »

So they nerf even more. Interesting we will see who will play veteran dlc dungeon and trials... I guess people will play only normal modes. I guess they want us to use 2x crit chance sets and sharpened weapons with lover mundus like i see it...

Once you grasp the mechs it’s not so bad. What they have done is made it so that mid tier can’t just burn through like the upper tier can. None of the changes will affect the top players in any significant way. The only thing that the crit and CP changes managed to do was move the goal posts for the middle, but once you’ve caught up or adjusted you play style a bit none of it is really hard outside of vSS HM portal final boss and solo portal magblade in vCR+3.

I’ve managed several trifecta runs in vet dungeons since the current patch while under the DPS soft cap including SCP, Fang Lair and Frostvault. I’m progging vSS HM’s and have clears on all but final boss just this week. VAS2 is still out of reach at the moment but it’s team errors in execute holding us back. I am a solo portal magblade for vCR3 and it’s hit or miss down there but it’s a question of reps as I’ve only been serious about the class for about 3 weeks now. When I dies it’s less to do with nerfs and more to do with colossal unforced errors in unforgiving situations or sometimes just bad RNG. VCR3 will teach you all about bad RNG when you get fire before you can shed ice and and orb spawns on your head.

But honestly though hard modes are everything you would expect them to be while you learn mechs and once you clear them you realize just how simple it was. Most mechs are there to force you to panic and make errors. Eliminate the errors and overcome the challenge. It’s that simple.

I think you're missing the point. Go ahead and clear all of that stuff on StamDK and then we can talk about people not following mechanics.

Malkiv

I had read in the forums about people having issues with running MagDK in content, so I wanted run a vAA on my MagDK to see where she is at. MagDKs also play within melee range, especially if you're running dual wield front bar.

I think I did wholly reasonable with only running Mother's Sorrow, non-perfected False God, and FORGETTING TO TRAIT TWO OF MY JEWELS AS BLOODTHIRSTY (AUUUUGGGGHHHH). She still parses juicy, and I never once ran out of magicka. Pics below of the CMX. (Click to enlarge)

RogueShark

Malkiv wrote: »

I had read in the forums about people having issues with running MagDK in content, so I wanted run a vAA on my MagDK to see where she is at. MagDKs also play within melee range, especially if you're running dual wield front bar.

I think I did wholly reasonable with only running Mother's Sorrow, non-perfected False God, and FORGETTING TO TRAIT TWO OF MY JEWELS AS BLOODTHIRSTY (AUUUUGGGGHHHH). She still parses juicy, and I never once ran out of magicka. Pics below of the CMX. (Click to enlarge)

Again, playing in melee is NOT the biggest issue. Stam is not "just melee". Yes, you do need ranged to avoid having stacking issues in some trials where stacking is just a bad idea (vKA HM, as an example).

Mag hits pen cap without trying.
Mag can run all the support DPS sets because they're mag sets.
Mag has supperior aoe/cleave (as of live).
And, yes, mag can do melee far easier than stam can do ranged.

There is no benefit in mixing a mag/stam group because stam needs pen that mag doesn't.
There's no benefit to running all stam vs all mag because mag is easier to support, boost damage of the group through support DPS sets, has superior aoe, AND... don't have to be in melee.

It is an issue when I run sharpened + lover to hit pen cap with sub-50% crit while a mag toon can get to almost 90% crit while not even having to try and hit pen, on top of all the other mag benefits. Stam gets bonus weapon damage which is nice since stam needs it for their BiS ST set. Mag doesn't have to worry about that, either: siroria, medusa, MS, no procs that require a spell damage threshold.

Being in melee is not the big deal some people think it is. Everything else is the problem.

Malkiv

RogueShark wrote: »

Again, playing in melee is NOT the biggest issue. Stam is not "just melee". Yes, you do need ranged to avoid having stacking issues in some trials where stacking is just a bad idea (vKA HM, as an example).

Being in melee is not the big deal some people think it is. Everything else is the problem.

Okay, but I didn't say anything about stamina damage dealers. I even began my post with saying that I did this BECAUSE "I had read in the forums about people having issues with running MagDK in content". I then further qualified my results with the fact I was running melee, and did not have the benefit of 100% up-time. Nothing in my post was about stamina, or the issues they face as a result of poor CP implimentation.

RogueShark

The "magdk also plays in melee range" part just made it seem like, to me, that melee-range play is what causes most of the issues. Going off the info in OP's post, magdk isn't any worse off than magden or magplar. They just, unfortunately, don't really bring the utility something like a magcro does.

Everest_Lionheart

furiouslog wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

PigofSteel wrote: »

So they nerf even more. Interesting we will see who will play veteran dlc dungeon and trials... I guess people will play only normal modes. I guess they want us to use 2x crit chance sets and sharpened weapons with lover mundus like i see it...

Once you grasp the mechs it’s not so bad. What they have done is made it so that mid tier can’t just burn through like the upper tier can. None of the changes will affect the top players in any significant way. The only thing that the crit and CP changes managed to do was move the goal posts for the middle, but once you’ve caught up or adjusted you play style a bit none of it is really hard outside of vSS HM portal final boss and solo portal magblade in vCR+3.

I’ve managed several trifecta runs in vet dungeons since the current patch while under the DPS soft cap including SCP, Fang Lair and Frostvault. I’m progging vSS HM’s and have clears on all but final boss just this week. VAS2 is still out of reach at the moment but it’s team errors in execute holding us back. I am a solo portal magblade for vCR3 and it’s hit or miss down there but it’s a question of reps as I’ve only been serious about the class for about 3 weeks now. When I dies it’s less to do with nerfs and more to do with colossal unforced errors in unforgiving situations or sometimes just bad RNG. VCR3 will teach you all about bad RNG when you get fire before you can shed ice and and orb spawns on your head.

But honestly though hard modes are everything you would expect them to be while you learn mechs and once you clear them you realize just how simple it was. Most mechs are there to force you to panic and make errors. Eliminate the errors and overcome the challenge. It’s that simple.

I think you're missing the point. Go ahead and clear all of that stuff on StamDK and then we can talk about people not following mechanics.

Outside of the hard modes for vet trails I have completed several DLC dungeon hard modes on my Stamden. My Stamden actually hits way harder than my Magcro as well, but because the extra 8K damage I do while bringing nothing to the table for the group pales in comparison to the extra 8K I can bring per person by running buff sets my Magcro is way more in demand.

Trust me I understand the pain of always being on the outside looking in because of the preconceptions of stam being trash but honestly it’s not as bad as people are making it out to be. If you put the heaviest hitters on the mag classes on stam toons the DPS would still be within 5%. That’s extra 5% is what min/max is all about.

I was a stam player first before committing to magicka to get into more serious trial guilds. Stam to me is way more fun and less visually distracting when actually needing to deal with mechanics because there’s no flashy thing in your face blocking the tells which let’s you be more proactive in battle. If groups would allow me I would play stam all day.

furiouslog

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

PigofSteel wrote: »

So they nerf even more. Interesting we will see who will play veteran dlc dungeon and trials... I guess people will play only normal modes. I guess they want us to use 2x crit chance sets and sharpened weapons with lover mundus like i see it...

Once you grasp the mechs it’s not so bad. What they have done is made it so that mid tier can’t just burn through like the upper tier can. None of the changes will affect the top players in any significant way. The only thing that the crit and CP changes managed to do was move the goal posts for the middle, but once you’ve caught up or adjusted you play style a bit none of it is really hard outside of vSS HM portal final boss and solo portal magblade in vCR+3.

I’ve managed several trifecta runs in vet dungeons since the current patch while under the DPS soft cap including SCP, Fang Lair and Frostvault. I’m progging vSS HM’s and have clears on all but final boss just this week. VAS2 is still out of reach at the moment but it’s team errors in execute holding us back. I am a solo portal magblade for vCR3 and it’s hit or miss down there but it’s a question of reps as I’ve only been serious about the class for about 3 weeks now. When I dies it’s less to do with nerfs and more to do with colossal unforced errors in unforgiving situations or sometimes just bad RNG. VCR3 will teach you all about bad RNG when you get fire before you can shed ice and and orb spawns on your head.

But honestly though hard modes are everything you would expect them to be while you learn mechs and once you clear them you realize just how simple it was. Most mechs are there to force you to panic and make errors. Eliminate the errors and overcome the challenge. It’s that simple.

I think you're missing the point. Go ahead and clear all of that stuff on StamDK and then we can talk about people not following mechanics.

Outside of the hard modes for vet trails I have completed several DLC dungeon hard modes on my Stamden. My Stamden actually hits way harder than my Magcro as well, but because the extra 8K damage I do while bringing nothing to the table for the group pales in comparison to the extra 8K I can bring per person by running buff sets my Magcro is way more in demand.

Trust me I understand the pain of always being on the outside looking in because of the preconceptions of stam being trash but honestly it’s not as bad as people are making it out to be. If you put the heaviest hitters on the mag classes on stam toons the DPS would still be within 5%. That’s extra 5% is what min/max is all about.

I was a stam player first before committing to magicka to get into more serious trial guilds. Stam to me is way more fun and less visually distracting when actually needing to deal with mechanics because there’s no flashy thing in your face blocking the tells which let’s you be more proactive in battle. If groups would allow me I would play stam all day.

To test your statement, we'd need to control for APM, which is a simple proxy for individual player talent. I've done some spot checks, but nothing scientific, and when you get a group of DPS (in VSS on a given boss) with similar APM together, magcro still outclasses stamDK by a significant amount. I looked at 5 magcros doing about 80 CPM and 5 stamDKs doing about 80 CPM (hard to find, trust me), and stamDK is performing about 15% lower. That lines up with the overall difference in max DPS values for the classes considering the stam group vs the mag group. As discussed, it's likely that it's due to a combination of group buffs, ranged damage deltas, pen, and the other aforementioned topics.

Consider also how APM affects DPS across different classes. Mag can do a lot more AOE, push synergy damage, and range better. As player APM approaches the median, the differences across class probably get larger, which means that the CP nerfs and other adjustments will continue to widen the gap. It's easier to do more damage with lower APM on the top three classes. I see it in my own prog groups. I can cast more APM and do a more optimal rotation on my magplar than the magcros and magblades in my group, but they still do higher overall DPS, and much higher single target DPS. I do everything you're expected to do - swap builds across fights, etc. I can't reach their numbers on magplar despite having pretty decent APM, and their potential will always be higher.

Sidebar: We're just trying to clear vet stuff, but if we were going hard mode for something, the raid leader would probably require me to swap classes to get better optimization. I find that objectionable, because I want to collect those achievements on my main and preferred class. In addition, having to practice and learn new rotations as well as the finer aspects of skillsets on additional classes is a giant time sink with a pretty large opportunity cost in my situation - and I already have these toons leveled up and specced with gear. For any new player whose ambition is to play in vet trials, they need to start with a toon that is advantaged, or eventually be forced to invest a fairly significant number of hours required to roll, level, spec, learn, and master a new class, all while knowing that it could all completely change with the next patch. This has always been my largest issue with this game - I understand and appreciate the need for variety and change in order to keep the game fresh. However, ZOS has implemented a rate of change that borders on chaos, and demands an aggregate of hundreds of thousands of player hours that adds little to no value to player enjoyment, and the DPS gaps posted here are one symptom of that approach.

The top 1000 players will tend to choose classes that max their potential and contribution to the group, so stam won't get selected for many of the above reasons. When you look at magcro, some additional spot checks seem to confirm that the top magcro players cast more APM than the people who play stam. As such, some of the gaps we see in the OP for the median values might due to a talent difference, but I think that if you went in on StamDK, you would not be hitting 8% harder unless the group was somehow optimized for stam, because that's what the APM comparison data appears to support.

There is also the issue of survivability, as a lot of vSS damage is of the mag/elemental variety, which hurts anyone in a medium build. Mitigation is also seeing a nerf, further reducing stam's ability to remain competitive, because they are more likely to die from individual errors because of their lower resistances. That might also be a factor in the APM gaps - if stam is more likely to die, they will end up casting less. Some of the APM gaps are probably due to a talent bias, but mitigation might also be affecting overall stam APM within trials due to more deaths.

At the end of the day, because there are no top score guilds that are running stam-dominated groups in vSS, they must have concluded that it's not a feasible strategy, which means that no matter what, the wisdom of crowds tells us that stam is still lower because there are not a set of buffs and sets that support it to the extent that there is for mag, otherwise someone would have implemented it. If a guild wanted to run all stam because it's more enjoyable to play, and the difference was really only 5%, they probably would have done that, especially if it was just to show off. There would be at least one guild that did it. Theoretically, on stack and burn bosses and mechanics like portals where single target should rule, stam should hypothetically be optimal. No one has done it and submitted a log on vSS since the last patch. No one.

So, I respectfully disagree, but if you have hard data to support otherwise, it would be appreciated and valuable to the discussion.