Are monster sets worth using anymore?

Integral1900

We have gone from a situation where the new CP system kicked open the doors to a huge diaspora of new builds, I had more ideas for hybrid builds alone than I had characters! Now all of a sudden, with a crunch of grinding gears, they’ve gone in totally the opposite direction.

This is the single biggest reduction in build diversity in the history of this game. If it goes live 3/4 of the sets I use will be nerfed into the ground, and for what? I’ve never trolled people with my characters, I’ve always tried to help the people I encounter in the world. Well to heck with it, I’m just going to stick to easier content, I’m not going to be forced into playing some tedious boring fatuous yawn inducing meta build just because some folk are inexplicably determined to make us all play that way! From the sound of it PVP players seem to hate this solution as much as we do. At least we PVE players can simply choose to ignore a few more world bosses or just keep walking past that dragon

If PVP wants to have nothing but max stat builds why not put this business in battle spirit! I don’t want to play max stat builds, I want to play fun funky spectacular ones with great sound effects and watch baddies blow up in big balls of flames, I want to watch my mighty dragon knight as she unsheathes her giant burning blade, knocking some dastardly villain up into the air before setting them on fire in a sea of special effects!

wheresbes

Larcomar wrote: »

Looking at update 30 though, it now looks like they've now raised the spell / wpn damage requirement even further - "Sets that use Weapon and Spell Damage now require 6574 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 5478."

I'm sorry, I'm stupid this morning, what does this even mean? There are requirements attached to monster sets??

markulrich1966

wheresbes wrote: »

Larcomar wrote: »

Looking at update 30 though, it now looks like they've now raised the spell / wpn damage requirement even further - "Sets that use Weapon and Spell Damage now require 6574 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 5478."

I'm sorry, I'm stupid this morning, what does this even mean? There are requirements attached to monster sets??

the sets no longer do a fixed amount of damage.
Instead, it scales with your recources.
So the damage done from iceheart for example, will be 100% of the damage it had before the update, IF you have 6574 spell damage.
If you have less, also the set will do less damage.
My sorcerers/magplars usually have around 3000 SD in soloplay (e.g. doing worldboss dailies), so I will put the 15 mad tinker sets I golded out during the clockwork city event back into inventory and use classical sets again.

wheresbes

Thanks for the reply! the threshold is insane, I mean who has that SD in PVE? So, no proc sets for us, crit was nerfed... oof.

Larcomar

Integral1900 wrote: »

We have gone from a situation where the new CP system kicked open the doors to a huge diaspora of new builds, I had more ideas for hybrid builds alone than I had characters! Now all of a sudden, with a crunch of grinding gears, they’ve gone in totally the opposite direction.

This is the single biggest reduction in build diversity in the history of this game. If it goes live 3/4 of the sets I use will be nerfed into the ground, and for what? I’ve never trolled people with my characters, I’ve always tried to help the people I encounter in the world. Well to heck with it, I’m just going to stick to easier content, I’m not going to be forced into playing some tedious boring fatuous yawn inducing meta build just because some folk are inexplicably determined to make us all play that way!

I hate to say it, but thats sort of where I'm coming out. I don't run much vet content now because it drives you into a meta which is just... dull. I mean, every character I have has a dps loadout which the looks the same. They load up crit gear - MS, medusa, two one pieces etc - and cast utterly generic non class skills - UWE, barbed trap, mystic orb, meteor etc and then spam ele weapon. Usually with other generic stuff like magelight filling out their their bar for the passive boosts. I honestly get confused which of my characters I'm playing sometimes. The only difference is where they get major sorcery and what passives they have.

The one redeeming feature was that for normal content and overland, you could "play how you liked" and yeah, take advantage of the plethora of fun and exciting sets the game offered - stick overwheming surge, thunderbug and ilambris on your sorc, or elfbane, grothdar and silks / bsw on your dk etc. This is just going to kill that, unless you stick to utterly simple overland content - questing, delves maybe the odd public dungeon. Given the choice I know which way Id go, but you have to wonder why they're forcing us to make that choice. What is it that zos has against casual players?

Larcomar

wheresbes wrote: »

Thanks for the reply! the threshold is insane, I mean who has that SD in PVE? So, no proc sets for us, crit was nerfed... oof.

Sorry I realise I should have cut and pasted the text from the pts served into the original post. It wasn't v clear. You're not the first to say that. I think Markulrich explained it though. And yeah, I've been looking at all my toons SD. The mag guys are all between 3-4k max; from what I'm reading on pts, it looks like the drop off in damage values from proc sets is linear, so I'm looking at a 50% reduction.

My stam guys are better off, but even my warden who's using hundings, briarheart and obv an infused bow with berzerker glyph backbar + full medium armour and a couple of infused wpn dmg glyphs is only just reaching 6500 weapon damage. So, if you build into weapon damage, on a stam toon, wearing full medium, your selenes will probably take only a marginal hit. But fairly obviously, this just applies to monster helms - I can't see any way you'd get to 6500 if you were wearing proc sets on body / weapons.

And if your on a mag toon, or a stam toon building into crit, you're pretty screwed.

Chilly-McFreeze

Larcomar wrote: »

And if your on a mag toon, or a stam toon building into crit, you're pretty screwed.

If they aren't willing or able to put those changes into battle spirit, the very least they should do is to allow proc sets to crit again.

axi

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Next patch most will be useless on magicka DDs; the spell power values necessary to reach even *close* to their damage numbers on live are pretty much impossible to achieve.

Kiss your Skoria/Zaan/Grothdarr goodbye now; ZOS killed them.

Most players will probably use one of the new Mythics so its not such a problem to trade in a monster set.

They will, but

1. That's going to get nerfed into the ground just like the Stranglers did; I can already feel it, and
2. The monster set procs are so fun I *want* to wear them, but the DPS is going to be too low to be useful.

New mythic already got nerfed pretty hard compared to it's first version and right now while still being strong it's nowhere near the strenght level of trassian stranglers when those were released.

Shantu

It's hard to even imagine what the designers have in mind. Sometimes I think when full standardization
/balance is reached it will make absolutely no difference what skills and gear you choose. At that point it will be all cosmetic...apart from the occasional incentive to buy the next DLC/Chapter, which will ultimately meet the same vanilla death nerf everything else does.

I guess as long as the housing whales are throwing cash at the Crown Store, it really doesn't matter much.

amm7sb14_ESO

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I think I have reading comprehension difficulty. May someone please tell me about this WD/SD requirement? I may very well have missed something.

From PTS patch notes 7.0.2:

General

Made the following adjustments to item set scaling:

• Sets that use Weapon and Spell Damage now require 6574 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 5478, resulting in approximately a 17% reduction.
• Sets that use Magicka or Stamina now require 39,901 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 38,350, resulting in approximately a 4% reduction.
• Sets that use Health now require 43,968 to reach their original values, up from 38,350, resulting in approximately a 13% reduction.
• Sets that use Physical or Spell Resistance now require 30,680 of either, up from 27,890, resulting in approximately a 9% reduction.

I actually don't even know what any of this means? Can someone explain it in layman's terms? Pretend I need crayons to spell it out.

wheresbes

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I think I have reading comprehension difficulty. May someone please tell me about this WD/SD requirement? I may very well have missed something.

From PTS patch notes 7.0.2:

General

Made the following adjustments to item set scaling:

• Sets that use Weapon and Spell Damage now require 6574 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 5478, resulting in approximately a 17% reduction.
• Sets that use Magicka or Stamina now require 39,901 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 38,350, resulting in approximately a 4% reduction.
• Sets that use Health now require 43,968 to reach their original values, up from 38,350, resulting in approximately a 13% reduction.
• Sets that use Physical or Spell Resistance now require 30,680 of either, up from 27,890, resulting in approximately a 9% reduction.

I actually don't even know what any of this means? Can someone explain it in layman's terms? Pretend I need crayons to spell it out.

It took me some time to understand it too because is such an awful change that I thought I was imagining things.

Easy peasy: Your sets will now scale similarly to how abilities scales. Some sets will scale on weapon/spell damage, some others on health and so on.

Imagine that your set was doing a flat 2000 damage and now it scales on weapon/spell damage: it will do a varying amount, the maximum being 2000 damage IF you have 6574 weapon/spell damage, so, if you have for instance 3287 weapon/spell damage the damage will be 1000. Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Everstorm

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I think I have reading comprehension difficulty. May someone please tell me about this WD/SD requirement? I may very well have missed something.

From PTS patch notes 7.0.2:

General

Made the following adjustments to item set scaling:

• Sets that use Weapon and Spell Damage now require 6574 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 5478, resulting in approximately a 17% reduction.
• Sets that use Magicka or Stamina now require 39,901 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 38,350, resulting in approximately a 4% reduction.
• Sets that use Health now require 43,968 to reach their original values, up from 38,350, resulting in approximately a 13% reduction.
• Sets that use Physical or Spell Resistance now require 30,680 of either, up from 27,890, resulting in approximately a 9% reduction.

I actually don't even know what any of this means? Can someone explain it in layman's terms? Pretend I need crayons to spell it out.

They are telling the difference between two successive PTS builds. Not the difference between Live servers and test.
They introduced proc sets scaling to your various stats on the PTS and then a patch later they upped the amount you need to get the numbers we now have on Live.

Chilly-McFreeze

wheresbes wrote: »

Imagine that your set was doing a flat 2000 damage and now it scales on weapon/spell damage: it will do a varying amount, the maximum being 2000 damage IF you have 6574 weapon/spell damage, so, if you have for instance 3287 weapon/spell damage the damage will be 1000. Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

There is no cap. If you're rocking 10k weapon dmg, your proc sets will do far more dmg than on live.

BXR_Lonestar

Larcomar wrote: »

I know in trial stuff the meta has long been two separate crit pieces. But for everyday use, I've found monster helms reasonably effective and above all fun. And it lends itself to some cool builds eg elfbane + grothdar on my mag dk, selenes on my beary warden, maW on my pet sorc.

Looking at update 30 though, it now looks like they've now raised the spell / wpn damage requirement even further - "Sets that use Weapon and Spell Damage now require 6574 of either in order to reach their original values, up from 5478."

I can't conceive of getting anywhere near 5500 yet alone 6500 spell damage on my mag toons. The mag dk's probably trogging along at 3500 when BSW pops. No clue where my other mag toons are at, but I'd guess similar or lower - they're generally running stuff like MS, medusa. Stam toons maybe better off but that's still alot of wpm dmg.

Are monster helms now dead? - I'm assuming the reduction is vaguely linear? - ie if your spell dmg is 1/2 the new requirement, is the damage 1/2?

Given proc sets almost certainly are - they're fun in rnds but never scaled well in vet content anyway - are we all supposed to just stack crit now and forget anything else?

It really depends on what you play and whether you are mag/stam. I've found that there really isn't any good stam helmets to use for DPS, mainly because stam have to mix it up between ranged and frontline combat, and many of the proc sets that would contribute decent damage only proc in melee range or only deal damage if they proc in melee range. That is why, IMO, arena weapons are better to use on stam specs.

Mag characters have a wider range of sets that are viable because they they proc damage at range, or they proc and the effect stays long enough for the mag character to position themselves to get the most use out of it (sets like Grothdar, Zaan, etc.). So IMO, mag dps monster sets are more viable.

And if your a support character, it benefits the group to wear monster helms vs. a mythic that may only benefit you. Helms like Symphony of Blades, Sentinal of Rkugthamz, and Encrantis are all going to be good choices for support characters because they help support the group.

So overall, as a rule of thumb (At least for me), I use monster sets still on mag specs and support, but arena weapons on Stam.

Skazur

Were there any information about the scaling?
I'd mean it can be an ok'ish option using the new proc-sets if they scale maybe accurately linear.

Dropping too much for 6,5k SD... nah.
Especially in PvP/RvR as a non-sorc/nb.

Larcomar

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

wheresbes wrote: »

Imagine that your set was doing a flat 2000 damage and now it scales on weapon/spell damage: it will do a varying amount, the maximum being 2000 damage IF you have 6574 weapon/spell damage, so, if you have for instance 3287 weapon/spell damage the damage will be 1000. Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

There is no cap. If you're rocking 10k weapon dmg, your proc sets will do far more dmg than on live.

Errr I'm sorry. How many stam toons are rocking 10000 weapon damage? And how many magika toons are? How do you even manage those numbers?

Stevie6

Magicka is dead, long live stamina for all game content. Lol

Chilly-McFreeze

Larcomar wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

wheresbes wrote: »

Imagine that your set was doing a flat 2000 damage and now it scales on weapon/spell damage: it will do a varying amount, the maximum being 2000 damage IF you have 6574 weapon/spell damage, so, if you have for instance 3287 weapon/spell damage the damage will be 1000. Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

There is no cap. If you're rocking 10k weapon dmg, your proc sets will do far more dmg than on live.

Errr I'm sorry. How many stam toons are rocking 10000 weapon damage? And how many magika toons are? How do you even manage those numbers?

It's an exaggeration to show that those sets scale infinitely, which is ironically part of the issue for PvP.

E: You wrote something about a "maximum" that's at 6.5k dmg, which isn't how it works. You theoretically can have stronger proc sets than on live. You also theoretically can have the same dmg on them as on live, however here comes your question into play: who's rocking 6.5k consistent dmg stats anyway if also wearing proc sets in PvE? Mostly trial groups, I guess. As anything else you're SoL.

Chilly-McFreeze

Stevie6 wrote: »

Magicka is dead, long live stamina for all game content. Lol

Fun fact: stam isn't dominating PvE. Most trial groups are mag. "Better" proc scaling on stam won't change that.

AuraStorm43

You’re already seeing 2 pc crit in a lotta content for mag, this just solidifies it

You’ll likely only see ilabris in content but thats the same as live

Stevie6

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Stevie6 wrote: »

Magicka is dead, long live stamina for all game content. Lol

Fun fact: stam isn't dominating PvE. Most trial groups are mag. "Better" proc scaling on stam won't change that.

Yes that is a true statement but look at it from a casual, lowbie perspective. I have double the damage output on my stam characters. I don’t have any gear better than overland or crafted, no rotation to speak of, and basically heavy attacking or the occasional light attack. I’m not very good after four years but I do notice a difference between the two. Base spell damage is the weaker of the two. I get 7k to 11k dps magicka and 10k to 38k dps stamina on overland targets...no test dummy.

Players interested in group content well that’s different. You’ll have to prove yourself capable of maintaining higher dps in a competitive environment and stam is being shelved in favor of magicka.

Starlight_Whisper

Everstorm wrote: »

Monster sets got hit hard with the introduction of mythics, this change will probably be the final nail in the coffin. And once again PvE gets screwed over because of PvP.

Because combat dev used to only pvp dev.

Starlight_Whisper

It gets worse for healers! Hope you got 40k Magicka!

If you aren't bis race go home! No casuals allowed. This what game is telling people.

Starlight_Whisper

Varana wrote: »

Lerozain wrote: »

"Sets that use Weapon and Spell Damage now require 6574 of either in order to reach their original values"

I'd like to know how many magicka DDs are running around with 6.5k SD. Thats a ridiculously high cap, what is Zos doing...

They set it at some value. Then some tryhard PvPers came along and did some videos where they exploited that value with a stam build. And because ZOS is lazy, they responded by raising the value for both equally.

Remember raise the ceiling and forget the floor!

Starlight_Whisper

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

6.5k Spell Damage is relatively achievable, but does require some sacrifices (Berserker instead of Poison enchant, Elf instead of Khajiit, Siroria instead of Bahsei’s or FGD). Even at that point monster sets still aren’t worth using though. Damage procs in general have just lost so much over the years, with one of the more recent examples being CP2.0 with lower % multipliers affecting procs.

6.5k outside of well composed groups is still a stretch if you aren't forgoing some other more efficient stats.

Dunmer + Siroria + BSW + infused berserker + Apprentice mundus + 3 dmg glyphs with standard maj sorcery buff barely put you up to that.

And then your crit + pen suck really hard. Not to mention that in PvE proc sets are a flavor tool for those non min/maxers even now. Those who usually spread their stats because they aren't top tier players able to run with no investment in regen etc. So your conclusion is right. The investment isn't worth it to get a single monster set at the power level of the current patch.

Just angrys me when the look at very top and forget middle.

Stevie6

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

6.5k Spell Damage is relatively achievable, but does require some sacrifices (Berserker instead of Poison enchant, Elf instead of Khajiit, Siroria instead of Bahsei’s or FGD). Even at that point monster sets still aren’t worth using though. Damage procs in general have just lost so much over the years, with one of the more recent examples being CP2.0 with lower % multipliers affecting procs.

6.5k outside of well composed groups is still a stretch if you aren't forgoing some other more efficient stats.

Dunmer + Siroria + BSW + infused berserker + Apprentice mundus + 3 dmg glyphs with standard maj sorcery buff barely put you up to that.

And then your crit + pen suck really hard. Not to mention that in PvE proc sets are a flavor tool for those non min/maxers even now. Those who usually spread their stats because they aren't top tier players able to run with no investment in regen etc. So your conclusion is right. The investment isn't worth it to get a single monster set at the power level of the current patch.

Just angrys me when the look at very top and forget middle.

Hehe try living in the basement and looking at the floor from below

Chilly-McFreeze

Stevie6 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Stevie6 wrote: »

Magicka is dead, long live stamina for all game content. Lol

Fun fact: stam isn't dominating PvE. Most trial groups are mag. "Better" proc scaling on stam won't change that.

Yes that is a true statement but look at it from a casual, lowbie perspective. I have double the damage output on my stam characters. I don’t have any gear better than overland or crafted, no rotation to speak of, and basically heavy attacking or the occasional light attack. I’m not very good after four years but I do notice a difference between the two. Base spell damage is the weaker of the two. I get 7k to 11k dps magicka and 10k to 38k dps stamina on overland targets...no test dummy.

Players interested in group content well that’s different. You’ll have to prove yourself capable of maintaining higher dps in a competitive environment and stam is being shelved in favor of magicka.

Keep in mind that overland fights are rather short and that your DPS there probably mainly consists of burst and totalled up dmg on multiple targets, so it's a bit vague. What people are meaning when they talk about the stam/mag discrepancy in PvE is the dps over longer period of times in trial environments where you have to follow mechanics, e.g. moving out of melee range, switching targets etc. In a perfect world melee builds bring more power but will equal out because of said mechanics. In reality it even fails right at group composition, e.g. having to wear an extra set for more penetration if you aren't going for all-mag etc.

Anyway, yes, depending on your playstyle one or the other might suits you better. But, and this is a big but, the new set changes will hurt players like you far more than the endgame crowd. If you're casually not min/maxing you'll lose a great deal of proc power and that is where the issue really lies for PvE. Procs where a nice way to raise the floor, yet contrary to their ever repeating mantra they screwed the floor big time. It's a shame.

Everstorm

Skazur wrote: »

Were there any information about the scaling?
I'd mean it can be an ok'ish option using the new proc-sets if they scale maybe accurately linear.

Dropping too much for 6,5k SD... nah.
Especially in PvP/RvR as a non-sorc/nb.

Patch notes in the PST forum.

shimm

As others have pointed out this is literally the opposite of how it should work. It should start with 100% damage and diminish with more weapon damage… what is the thinking behind this?

rumple9

I cba grinding for mythics - it's boring af. Will just stick with my monster helms, which will become bis again next patch after mythics are nerfed