Dear Developers, please make yourself some magdks in PvP

LightYagami

Can developers please try to make yourselves some magdks to play PvP for a month or so? Not only a few rounds of No CP BG, but also CP Cyrodiil and CP Imperial City.

I guess magdk players have been talking about the class continuously, but it's difficult to describe on words the combined effect on the slow, melee, no execution, low burst, high cost class with nerfed wings, nerfed spike, nerfed leap, nerfed c.c., DoTs can be purged, etc.

Developers may better try to experience the combined effects of all the problems with first person experience.

It's not about one or two problems every individual class may have, but the combined effects of all the problems.

Please try for a month intensively and you'll know why there are only limited numbers of magdks in PvP and you don't see them often in death recaps.

For your extra information, DK has been usually voted as one of the worst class in similar polls like those I quoted below.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563198/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-no-proc-test-edition#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/558808/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561164/help-me-pick-a-stamina-class-for-alliance-pvp#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/429504/which-class-is-weakest-healing-class-pve-and-pvp

LightYagami

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Hi Gina, could you please help to communicate with the team.
It's better for them to try by themselves in addition to only reading threads.

If possible, please also take a look at PvP death recap statistics, player base, K/D ratio, killing blow, damage per second, etc.

Long time ago I shared a VMA statistics about the 4 base game classes and DK was obviously the lowest in terms of scores. Okay I have to admit that as a general player I'm simply lazy to collect data of all the 6 classes and undate continuously. I guess ZOS have much better database to do much better objective evaluations.

Vanagrand

Infinite sustain, great survability, you only need 3 ofensive skills to kill a stamden...

Dunno what are you complaining. MagDK as StamDk are S tier.

Joy_Division

Vanagrand wrote: »

Infinite sustain, great survability, you only need 3 ofensive skills to kill a stamden...

Dunno what are you complaining. MagDK as StamDk are S tier.

The last time Mag DK was in S tier was when IPhone 5s were the new thing all the cool kids got.

Brrrofski

I think it's be a start if they actually went into Cyrodiil at all.

The way it plays, I find it impossible to believe that they even go there.

yeyesil

Magdk is one of the strongest classes especially in 1v1,solo or in a group if built in a right way. I can teach you how to play magdk in pc-eu server.
[snip] Stamden/stamcro shines in gvgs with huge burst capacities while magdk is the top in 1v1 and good at solo or a group with lots of aoe damage and CCs.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

LightYagami

Vanagrand wrote: »

Infinite sustain, great survability, you only need 3 ofensive skills to kill a stamden...

Dunno what are you complaining. MagDK as StamDk are S tier.

My main point has always be magdk. I know stamdks are better in PvP.

Talking about sustain, I can only find a PvE poll. you can read it here...:
DK is voted as the worst sustain by the community. DK got far more votes than the 2nd place, in fact DK got more votes than all other classes combined.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain/p1

I already quoted quote a few polling threads and DK is usually one of the weakest, voted by the community.

Don't get me wrong. I can make magdk work okay-ish in different PvP environment, but it's very challenging and not quit flexible. I have a magdk at grand warlord with flawless conqueror title. The toon has been on leaderboards of VMA and Cyrodiil quite a few times. I'm not a good player but I have some basic knowledge about magdk.

I just hope developers take a look at this class. I'm sure magdk is far below S class in May 2021.

In fact people don't have to believe my personal feeling, or even the votes from the community.
Data talks better than personal feeling, that's why I also suggest developers to look at data if possible.

LightYagami

Joy_Division wrote: »

Vanagrand wrote: »

Infinite sustain, great survability, you only need 3 ofensive skills to kill a stamden...

Dunno what are you complaining. MagDK as StamDk are S tier.

The last time Mag DK was in S tier was when IPhone 5s were the new thing all the cool kids got.

True. That's why we seldom see magdks in high MMR BGs, CP Cyrodiil, and IC.
With the continuous nerf, most magdk players already quit the class.

If there's a requirement that one person can only make one PvP toon, I guess majority of players won't use magdk. at least not in May 2021.

Wardens and Sorcerers are usually voted by the community as the best classes.

Votes (representing collective experience of players) and data (objective supports) tell the truth.

We can let analysts (if any) of ZOS justify.

LightYagami

Brrrofski wrote: »

I think it's be a start if they actually went into Cyrodiil at all.

The way it plays, I find it impossible to believe that they even go there.

From some previous patch notes, I guess they mainly look at target dummy performance.

During that patch, they nerfed / buffed some gears / skills by very minimal amount (the scale was like adding 8 more magicka to the original 2000). Those micro changes are likely related to stationary long rotations against target dummies (PvE).

In fact developers can also try all different classes, not only magdks in PvP if the wish. For example they can enjoy stamdens and stamsorcs too.

(I have magdk, stamden, magsorc, and stamblade PvP toons.)

With these experiences, developers will know how every class perform. But they have to really spend time and try hard and have enough experience to make judgements.

Sometimes players (including myself) are only sharing subjective opinion, but I guess developers have much more data to do the analysis. That's why I also asked them to take a look at more data in addition to PvE target dummy scores.

Joy_Division

yeyesil wrote: »

Magdk is one of the strongest classes especially in 1v1,solo or in a group if built in a right way. I can teach you how to play magdk in pc-eu server.
[snip] Stamden/stamcro shines in gvgs with huge burst capacities while magdk is the top in 1v1 and good at solo or a group with lots of aoe damage and CCs.

Just because you are good with a mag DK doesn;t mean it's nearly as good or versatile as you are claiming. Stamden/stamcro shines in everything because their design better fits how ZOs has developed their game, meanwhile the DK still has the chassis from pre-launch. A DoT based class when now half of all the opponents a DK comes across has a built in cleanse (one of which does so passively which is crazy). The only original spec that comes close to matching both the power and versatility of the Stamden/Stamcro is mag sorc because it has two things that are so good (streak, negate) that players can still manage to overcome their PvE pet design. All the other original specs have awkward mechanics, aren't very versatile, or have wild swings in effectiveness (e.g., stam NB very strong solo, very niche in group play).

LightYagami

yeyesil wrote: »

Magdk is one of the strongest classes especially in 1v1,solo or in a group if built in a right way. I can teach you how to play magdk in pc-eu server.
[snip] Stamden/stamcro shines in gvgs with huge burst capacities while magdk is the top in 1v1 and good at solo or a group with lots of aoe damage and CCs.

I have a flawless conqueror magdk which reached VMA leaderboard quite a few times.
I have a grand warlord magdk which reached Cyrodiil leaderboard quite a few times.
I solo'd quite a few vet group dungeons with magdk (without mythic items).
I can 1 v 1, 1 v x, small group, zerg with magdk.

I'm not a good player but I guess I tried to learn the class and I know some basics about the class.
If that's what you want to know.

You can also take a look at all the polling from the community. It's not only my personal opinion.

Again. I'm inviting developers to try. Not complaining. They can try all class, in fact.

Rhaegar75

Joy_Division wrote: »

yeyesil wrote: »

Magdk is one of the strongest classes especially in 1v1,solo or in a group if built in a right way. I can teach you how to play magdk in pc-eu server.
[snip] Stamden/stamcro shines in gvgs with huge burst capacities while magdk is the top in 1v1 and good at solo or a group with lots of aoe damage and CCs.

Just because you are good with a mag DK doesn;t mean it's nearly as good or versatile as you are claiming. Stamden/stamcro shines in everything because their design better fits how ZOs has developed their game, meanwhile the DK still has the chassis from pre-launch. A DoT based class when now half of all the opponents a DK comes across has a built in cleanse (one of which does so passively which is crazy). The only original spec that comes close to matching both the power and versatility of the Stamden/Stamcro is mag sorc because it has to things that are so good (streak, negate) that players can still manage to overcome their PvE pet design. All the other original specs have awkward mechanics, aren't very versatile, or have would swings in effectiveness (e.g., stam NB very strong solo, very niche in group play).

This...this.... this...totally my point!!! Well flagged @Joy_Division

xv1_me

LightYagami wrote: »

Can developers please try to make yourselves some magdks to play PvP for a month or so? Not only a few rounds of No CP BG, but also CP Cyrodiil and CP Imperial City.

I guess magdk players have been talking about the class continuously, but it's difficult to describe on words the combined effect on the slow, melee, no execution, low burst, high cost class with nerfed wings, nerfed spike, nerfed leap, nerfed c.c., DoTs can be purged, etc.

Developers may better try to experience the combined effects of all the problems with first person experience.

It's not about one or two problems every individual class may have, but the combined effects of all the problems.

Please try for a month intensively and you'll know why there are only limited numbers of magdks in PvP and you don't see them often in death recaps.

For your extra information, DK has been usually voted as one of the worst class in similar polls like those I quoted below.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563198/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-no-proc-test-edition#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/558808/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561164/help-me-pick-a-stamina-class-for-alliance-pvp#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/429504/which-class-is-weakest-healing-class-pve-and-pvp

I see a post like this all the time. Why don’t people learn to play the class instead of expecting some out of the box op, “used by everybody” skill or passive. This isn’t a class behind a pay wall it won’t automatically have 40k resists and op heal when u hit level 4.

Mag dk is perfectly fine in its current state, 99% of the time more than ten PvP’ers have to attack me for ten minutes before I die.

Spend less time complaining and more time learning the game.

LightYagami

xv1_me wrote: »

LightYagami wrote: »

Can developers please try to make yourselves some magdks to play PvP for a month or so? Not only a few rounds of No CP BG, but also CP Cyrodiil and CP Imperial City.

I guess magdk players have been talking about the class continuously, but it's difficult to describe on words the combined effect on the slow, melee, no execution, low burst, high cost class with nerfed wings, nerfed spike, nerfed leap, nerfed c.c., DoTs can be purged, etc.

Developers may better try to experience the combined effects of all the problems with first person experience.

It's not about one or two problems every individual class may have, but the combined effects of all the problems.

Please try for a month intensively and you'll know why there are only limited numbers of magdks in PvP and you don't see them often in death recaps.

For your extra information, DK has been usually voted as one of the worst class in similar polls like those I quoted below.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563198/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-no-proc-test-edition#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/558808/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561164/help-me-pick-a-stamina-class-for-alliance-pvp#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/429504/which-class-is-weakest-healing-class-pve-and-pvp

I see a post like this all the time. Why don’t people learn to play the class instead of expecting some out of the box op, “used by everybody” skill or passive. This isn’t a class behind a pay wall it won’t automatically have 40k resists and op heal when u hit level 4.

Mag dk is perfectly fine in its current state, 99% of the time more than ten PvP’ers have to attack me for ten minutes before I die.

Spend less time complaining and more time learning the game.

How do you assume that I don't learn the class?

I have a flawless conqueror magdk which reached VMA leaderboard quite a few times.
I have a grand warlord magdk which reached Cyrodiil leaderboard quite a few times.
I solo'd quite a few vet group dungeons with magdk (without mythic items).
I can 1 v 1, 1 v x, small group, zerg with magdk.

I'm not a good player but I guess I tried to learn the class and I know some basics about the class.
If that's what you want to know.

yeyesil

Joy_Division wrote: »

yeyesil wrote: »

Magdk is one of the strongest classes especially in 1v1,solo or in a group if built in a right way. I can teach you how to play magdk in pc-eu server.
[snip] Stamden/stamcro shines in gvgs with huge burst capacities while magdk is the top in 1v1 and good at solo or a group with lots of aoe damage and CCs.

Just because you are good with a mag DK doesn;t mean it's nearly as good or versatile as you are claiming. Stamden/stamcro shines in everything because their design better fits how ZOs has developed their game, meanwhile the DK still has the chassis from pre-launch. A DoT based class when now half of all the opponents a DK comes across has a built in cleanse (one of which does so passively which is crazy). The only original spec that comes close to matching both the power and versatility of the Stamden/Stamcro is mag sorc because it has to things that are so good (streak, negate) that players can still manage to overcome their PvE pet design. All the other original specs have awkward mechanics, aren't very versatile, or have would swings in effectiveness (e.g., stam NB very strong solo, very niche in group play).

Yes, I think I'm good at magdk but its not enough to kill your opponents. The class is strong, magdk is quite strong. Stamden and stamcro dont shine in everything. They have huge burst options but thats all. You need to wait for your DB if you fail with your combo. If your opponent is also a stamden/stamcro, it will be an endless fight if they are nearly equal. How many classes have purge? Templar/necro(cleanses 1 negative effect)/necro (noone uses cleanse in stamcro). They cant spam purge but you can easily spam dots to proc your 3x whip and lots of healing from embers spamming every 4-5 seconds. On the other side purges cannot be spammed because of high cost and sustain problems.

Stamden/stamcros are getting nerfed every patch and becoming more balanced. Especially with the nerfs of arctic blast/master snb/malubeth, pvp will be much more balanced.

Most pvp players in this game abuses OP classes/builds or want their favorite class/playstyle to be OP. I think magdk is quite balanced at the moment. Ofc there are some problems that needs to be fixed like a bit sustain problem in magdk but it can be solved easily with a few more recovery/cost reduction glyphes or breton race and even with the buff to Coag blood cost reduction.

Joy_Division

yeyesil wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

yeyesil wrote: »

Magdk is one of the strongest classes especially in 1v1,solo or in a group if built in a right way. I can teach you how to play magdk in pc-eu server.
[snip] Stamden/stamcro shines in gvgs with huge burst capacities while magdk is the top in 1v1 and good at solo or a group with lots of aoe damage and CCs.

Just because you are good with a mag DK doesn;t mean it's nearly as good or versatile as you are claiming. Stamden/stamcro shines in everything because their design better fits how ZOs has developed their game, meanwhile the DK still has the chassis from pre-launch. A DoT based class when now half of all the opponents a DK comes across has a built in cleanse (one of which does so passively which is crazy). The only original spec that comes close to matching both the power and versatility of the Stamden/Stamcro is mag sorc because it has to things that are so good (streak, negate) that players can still manage to overcome their PvE pet design. All the other original specs have awkward mechanics, aren't very versatile, or have would swings in effectiveness (e.g., stam NB very strong solo, very niche in group play).

Yes, I think I'm good at magdk but its not enough to kill your opponents. The class is strong, magdk is quite strong. Stamden and stamcro dont shine in everything. They have huge burst options but thats all. You need to wait for your DB if you fail with your combo. If your opponent is also a stamden/stamcro, it will be an endless fight if they are nearly equal. How many classes have purge? Templar/necro(cleanses 1 negative effect)/necro (noone uses cleanse in stamcro). They cant spam purge but you can easily spam dots to proc your 3x whip and lots of healing from embers spamming every 4-5 seconds. On the other side purges cannot be spammed because of high cost and sustain problems.

Stamden/stamcros are getting nerfed every patch and becoming more balanced. Especially with the nerfs of arctic blast/master snb/malubeth, pvp will be much more balanced.

Most pvp players in this game abuses OP classes/builds or want their favorite class/playstyle to be OP. I think magdk is quite balanced at the moment. Ofc there are some problems that needs to be fixed like a bit sustain problem in magdk but it can be solved easily with a few more recovery/cost reduction glyphes or breton race and even with the buff to Coag blood cost reduction.

This is exactly why the game balance stinks. People who think they are so good believe their class is quite strong even though it has mechanical limitations and are in B or C tiers by most people's accounts. And then the forum is flooded with nerf threads for the classes that are in S and A tiers and are stronger. That you only claim that stamden/stamcro are only good for a Dawnbreaker burst is crazy. Mender and mortal coil are so far beyond the original class's survival kit it's not even funny. Shalks and Shimmering Shield are so much better than the Templar equivalents Backlash and Eclipse they aren't even on the same planet.

What this amounts to is that the mediocre classes stay the same and the only way to balance the higher tier / paywall classes is to nerf / remove what makes them distinctive. So now we all have neutered classes, which is why more than half the forums insist they need proc sets in order to have variety/diversity, since their class skills are so uninspiring they'd rather wear armor sets that play the game for them.

Vizirith

yeyesil wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

yeyesil wrote: »

Magdk is one of the strongest classes especially in 1v1,solo or in a group if built in a right way. I can teach you how to play magdk in pc-eu server.
[snip] Stamden/stamcro shines in gvgs with huge burst capacities while magdk is the top in 1v1 and good at solo or a group with lots of aoe damage and CCs.

Just because you are good with a mag DK doesn;t mean it's nearly as good or versatile as you are claiming. Stamden/stamcro shines in everything because their design better fits how ZOs has developed their game, meanwhile the DK still has the chassis from pre-launch. A DoT based class when now half of all the opponents a DK comes across has a built in cleanse (one of which does so passively which is crazy). The only original spec that comes close to matching both the power and versatility of the Stamden/Stamcro is mag sorc because it has to things that are so good (streak, negate) that players can still manage to overcome their PvE pet design. All the other original specs have awkward mechanics, aren't very versatile, or have would swings in effectiveness (e.g., stam NB very strong solo, very niche in group play).

Yes, I think I'm good at magdk but its not enough to kill your opponents. The class is strong, magdk is quite strong. Stamden and stamcro dont shine in everything. They have huge burst options but thats all. You need to wait for your DB if you fail with your combo. If your opponent is also a stamden/stamcro, it will be an endless fight if they are nearly equal. How many classes have purge? Templar/necro(cleanses 1 negative effect)/necro (noone uses cleanse in stamcro). They cant spam purge but you can easily spam dots to proc your 3x whip and lots of healing from embers spamming every 4-5 seconds. On the other side purges cannot be spammed because of high cost and sustain problems.

You do realize the statement "spam dots" is an oxymoron right? Spamming burning embers means you are missing around 60% of the damage from it right? So you must mean cycling between the 3 dots. Presuming it takes around 1 second per ability (can't bar swap cancel) you are looking at about 4 secs to land each {engulfing flames>burning embers>FOO>molten whip} "combo". Total *default cost*(at work only have eso-skillbook.com) is about 10.4k mag. Total dmg done is 13860. Unfortunately you would only be getting 70% of the dmg done per engulfing flames, 60% per burning embers and 25% per FOO. This is of course without the extra 4 secs from the dk passive, meaning that the ratio of dmg to mag would be even worse. How spamming a 1 second, 4860 mag or 1880 health base cost 5 debuff purge to mitigate huge amounts of damage by a magdk is harder than spending 3 secs (Elemental drain, burning embers, engulfing flames) and 5980 mag is confusing.

And I'd gladly trade engulfing flames for sub assault if that's what you want. Oh and while yes warden's purge is much less effective, you also forgot nb cloak dot suppression. Granted that is only really effective against classes which are very dot reliant...which coincidently would be us by a pretty long margin.

yeyesil wrote: »

Stamden/stamcros are getting nerfed every patch and becoming more balanced. Especially with the nerfs of arctic blast/master snb/malubeth, pvp will be much more balanced.

Most pvp players in this game abuses OP classes/builds or want their favorite class/playstyle to be OP. I think magdk is quite balanced at the moment. Ofc there are some problems that needs to be fixed like a bit sustain problem in magdk but it can be solved easily with a few more recovery/cost reduction glyphes or breton race and even with the buff to Coag blood cost reduction.

But the issue is that magdk can't be played like any other class but it's balanced like it should. Stamdk uses dots also, but they don't refresh before it runs out like we do if we go molten whip. What classes in any environment pvp OR pve rely on refreshing dots before they run out? Is volley often spammed? Caltrops? Wall of elements? Barbed trap? No of course not, it becomes less efficient at that point as it should. So molten whip is in an awkward place. But what about flame lash? But then we lose our highest burst ability, not to mention it's much less reliable.

Although the fact that dswing spam is much more cost efficient and higher damage than the magdk's "4 second rotation" is kind of amusing. Again going by mostly base costs (reduced burning embers dmg accounting for burning proc mag regen & 2H's 15% cost reduction), magdk gets about 1.3 dmg per mag in the aforementioned 4 second rotation, vs dswing spam's 1.6 dmg per stam.

yeyesil

Joy_Division wrote: »

This is exactly why the game balance stinks. People who think they are so good believe their class is quite strong even though it has mechanical limitations and are in B or C tiers by most people's accounts. And then the forum is flooded with nerf threads for the classes that are in S and A tiers and are stronger. That you only claim that stamden/stamcro are only good for a Dawnbreaker burst is crazy. Mender and mortal coil are so far beyond the original class's survival kit it's not even funny. Shalks and Shimmering Shield are so much better than the Templar equivalents Backlash and Eclipse they aren't even on the same planet.

Dk has %10 block mitigation+%12 healing recieved which is nearly as strong as major vitality/mending. We also have 3k+spell resist. If you can block and heal yourself, you can easily survive and mitigate all the damage from stamden/stamcros/stamnb etc and they cant even stun you because magdks can use their stamina for perma blocking thats what I usually do. On the other hand dk has the best cc fossilize/shattering rocks with insane healing so you can easily complete your 3xwhip combo. In addition dk wings are really powerful. Old wings were OP and had no counterplay especially against magsorcs/magblades now %50 mitigation+insane flame damage reflection. Sometimes I use my wings and usually it's my top dps. Dk has everything in its passive and active skills.

Vizirith wrote: »

And I'd gladly trade engulfing flames for sub assault if that's what you want.

Then go and play stamden if you prefer sub assault. Why do you want all classes have the same basic mechanics and be equal?


I'm mag/stam dk main for 5 years too. Dk needs some improvements but its not underpowered as you said.I think giving the best and enough feedback would solve the problems the class is struggling every patch. However most dk players always complain about class and want their main to be OP. It wouldn't be fun at all If the class was stronger than expected.

Vizirith

yeyesil wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

This is exactly why the game balance stinks. People who think they are so good believe their class is quite strong even though it has mechanical limitations and are in B or C tiers by most people's accounts. And then the forum is flooded with nerf threads for the classes that are in S and A tiers and are stronger. That you only claim that stamden/stamcro are only good for a Dawnbreaker burst is crazy. Mender and mortal coil are so far beyond the original class's survival kit it's not even funny. Shalks and Shimmering Shield are so much better than the Templar equivalents Backlash and Eclipse they aren't even on the same planet.

Dk has %10 block mitigation+%12 healing recieved which is nearly as strong as major vitality/mending. We also have 3k+spell resist. If you can block and heal yourself, you can easily survive and mitigate all the damage from stamden/stamcros/stamnb etc and they cant even stun you because magdks can use their stamina for perma blocking thats what I usually do. On the other hand dk has the best cc fossilize/shattering rocks with insane healing so you can easily complete your 3xwhip combo. In addition dk wings are really powerful. Old wings were OP and had no counterplay especially against magsorcs/magblades now %50 mitigation+insane flame damage reflection. Sometimes I use my wings and usually it's my top dps. Dk has everything in its passive and active skills.

Vizirith wrote: »

And I'd gladly trade engulfing flames for sub assault if that's what you want.

Then go and play stamden if you prefer sub assault. Why do you want all classes have the same basic mechanics and be equal?


I'm mag/stam dk main for 5 years too. Dk needs some improvements but its not underpowered as you said.I think giving the best and enough feedback would solve the problems the class is struggling every patch. However most dk players always complain about class and want their main to be OP. It wouldn't be fun at all If the class was stronger than expected.

*Sigh* Strawman more please. But I agree removing blastbones due to the similarity to sub assault. Removing necro and warden purge due to the similarities to templar purge would change much. Removing bound armaments due to the similar generation with grim focus. Or we can say stamden has far better burst. That was never even up for debate. But I will say you are also right about stamden never needing to ask for buffs. I wonder why that is. You said you think dk isn’t as underpowered as I think. I’d like to see proof. What is your opinion on all the aforementioned comparisons I made?

Rhaegar75

is anyone really......truly comparing Wardens and Necros with any of the base classes!?!?!?

The new ones are inherently stronger and will shine especially in the hands of a good player! Can MagDK perform well? of course they can but the amount of skills and efforts required are by far superior than what you need to play Wardens and Necros!

WaltherCarraway

MagDK is very good in duel.
MagDK is good in premade BG.
MagDK is not that good in Cyrodiil overworld.

Warden did not exist.
Necro did not exist.

LightYagami

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Can MagDK perform well? of course they can but the amount of skills and efforts required are by far superior than what you need to play Wardens and Necros!

The amount of skills and efforts needed... That's also what I want to say.

As mentioned above, I've done some difficult tasks with magdk. In addition to flawless conqueror and leaderboards and soloing vet group dungeons, I also obtained some other minor titles like BG butcher, paragon, (above 50 BG without pre-made group myself) etc. with magdk. When I play the toon in 30 days campaigns I often ended up top 20 DK of all 3 factions in Gray Host (and that's including competitors - stamdks), and top 100 among all players including wardens, necros, etc. (I don't do cheesy grinding or fake flights to earn AP but really fighting.)

I know basics about how to do offensive plays, defensive plays, how to fight stam classes, how to fight purge users, how to sustain, how to use combo, how to utilize the environment, etc. I killed countless usually known S classes with magdk too.

Somehow some people assumed I didn't learn the class. Let's put in this way... I'm not an elitist and I'm not a even a good player, but I have to clarify that I did learn something basics about this class.

The point is that skill and effort of making magdks work far exceeds those required to get good with quite some other classes.

I have stamden, magsorc, stamblade toons for PvP too. The effort required are much less and the game plays are much more flexible.

Some people might have misunderstood my purpose... I've never asked for major overhaul to make magdk the easiest class or the most OP class, or having one zero cost skill offering sustain, buff, and purge all together like wardens, but developers have to take a look at the class. There are something wrong with the class making majority of people don't play this class in PvP or found significant difficulty in getting good with this class.

As I continuously mentioned, developer can also look at votes front the community and objective performance data and statistics.

Anyway, imo...
game data > community votes and selections >>>> my personal feelings.

There are always some outliers (I may be one of them) and I trust the collective data tells much better.
I won't say magdk is a S class based on myself being able to do difficult tasks with magdk, but the collective opinion and selection of the community and data already shown which classes are more preferable in PvP.

The population made their choice and shown their behaviors already.

If a class is voted to be one of the worst in different polling, and the majority of people don't use the class or can't use the class well, and we don't often see the class in death recaps, and we don't often see the class in high MMR BGs, there must be something happening and need to be studied by developers.

I guess that's basically all I want to say...

ThePedge

If you think MagDK is weak try MagNB

Veg

Mag DK is the worst class for pvp right now. It excels at nothing. Simple as.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563198/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-no-proc-test-edition

Every time there is any discussion on the worst class in pvp Mag DK always comes out as the class everyone knows to be garbage. Some good players will play Mag DK but that doesn't make the class good.

Anything a Mag DK can do can be done better by another class. Be it damage, healing or CC. Only way to save the class is for the devs to give up on the "damage over time" playstyle. That just leaves Mag DK's with neither good damage nor mobility. Even wardens are better with damage over time.

We all know that if deep breath (morph of inhale) was a damage ability like shalk and not a weak heal/damage/stun then the class would be fine. With just that one ability the entire playstyle could change from a bad mimic of stam builds burst damage to something actually unique and viable. An actual "hold your ground" class.

Until we can deal good, reliable burst damage while "holding our ground", Mag DK's will have no identity.

StShoot

LightYagami wrote: »

Can developers please try to make yourselves some magdks to play PvP for a month or so? Not only a few rounds of No CP BG, but also CP Cyrodiil and CP Imperial City.

I guess magdk players have been talking about the class continuously, but it's difficult to describe on words the combined effect on the slow, melee, no execution, low burst, high cost class with nerfed wings, nerfed spike, nerfed leap, nerfed c.c., DoTs can be purged, etc.

Developers may better try to experience the combined effects of all the problems with first person experience.

It's not about one or two problems every individual class may have, but the combined effects of all the problems.

Please try for a month intensively and you'll know why there are only limited numbers of magdks in PvP and you don't see them often in death recaps.

For your extra information, DK has been usually voted as one of the worst class in similar polls like those I quoted below.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563198/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight-in-cyrodiil-no-proc-test-edition#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/558808/what-class-do-you-find-the-most-difficult-to-fight/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561164/help-me-pick-a-stamina-class-for-alliance-pvp#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/429504/which-class-is-weakest-healing-class-pve-and-pvp

bUt yOu cAn UsE tHe dEstRO sTafF tO fInIsh
Hands down this was the biggest disappointment in eso history. They finaly introduce an execute that works on all clases and put it on that crapy skill.

Tbh the players that try to compare stamden/cro to the dk or any other base class are out of their mind.

The problem is that the old classes were developed in a diffrent time with a diffrent mindset. Back than every class was good at something. The plar had outstanding heals, the sorc had its mobility, the dk was the CC/dot class, and the nb was the assasin class. All of the classes did their job (depending on the meta) more or less well.
The Warden and the Necro on the other hand were developed with the mindset that everyclass should be able to achive everything (play how you want). So they have good heal- and damageabilities and are fairly tanky, because Zos wants them to perform well in all of the roles. This flexibility is what makes them stronger than most of the old classes. But it came at the cost of a unique playstyle, since (atleast in my eyes) warden and necros are nealry played the same way.

Most of the base game classes are in a dire need of a reevaluation of their skills and tooltips. Zos should look at how they originally wanted the class to be played and give it new skills/passivs that support this playstyle and fit into the new mindset of the game.
But they should stop trying to make every class the same. They should stop giving things that made one class unique to the other classes, like they did for example with purge and the vampire invisibility.

Regarding the mag dk a slow dot class without real burst (leap/whip/foo is not even close to that what a warden/sorc or nb can do) or execute doesnt work in a game where half of the classes are able to purge or outmove you. Thats why its dots where originally tied to the ability to crowd controle their enemys.
So while i dont think that mag dk is the worst class in the game, it certanly needs a rework.

Shomenuchi

Joy_Division wrote: »

This is exactly why the game balance stinks. People who think they are so good believe their class is quite strong even though it has mechanical limitations and are in B or C tiers by most people's accounts.

But you should be really good player to compare classes correctly more or less. Cos how to compare different stage of experience of average players?
And yes I think it's quite fair that one class requests more time, efforts and skill to achive the best perfomance than another.

ResidentContrarian

Vanagrand wrote: »

Infinite sustain, great survability, you only need 3 ofensive skills to kill a stamden...

Dunno what are you complaining. MagDK as StamDk are S tier.

Doubt.

Post a build capable of such?

ThePedge wrote: »

If you think MagDK is weak try MagNB

Still prefer mag NB a bit more because cloak and concealed weapon (since power lash stopped stunning a long time ago). No doubt ZOS will eventually come for concealed weapons' stun too eventually since its too profitable to sit and spam only one skill with the right conditions (especially with procs). Well maybe not, who knows

Pauwer

I haven't played my magdk since the no proc thing, but before that it was ok for me. But like others said, i also think the homogenisation of skills and classes made this game way worse in general and dks are just another victim of that. I dunno which update it was, when everything was changed, you remember, that one. Biggest mistake ever. Should be rolled back to way it was. Bring the fun back.

Raeyleigh

What can magdk even do better than stamdk?

Burst? Stamdk can stack damage way higher, plus they have dizzy, vate 2h and execute.
Dot pressure? stamdk dots hit harder and cost less.
CC support? fossilize and shifting standard are equally available. Talons are more convenient and better than bombard tho.
Healing? Only in theory, in practice powerlash and cauterize come at a great opportunity cost and stamdk can stack stats higher and has more easily applicable heals.
Sustain? Stamdk skills cost way less and helping hands passive gives them naturally better sustain.
Mitigation? Medium armor mitigates more than light armor, stamdk has access to major evasion and more dodgerolls. Magdk can permablock tho.

The only thing in magdks favour i can even come up with is the ability to permablock and talons being more convenient than bombard.

If you look at noproc cyro atm you can see how bad the class truly is. Once blackwod comes around malacath and proc sets get their deserved nerf, but that is the only pillar this class can even stand on the way it is now.

WaltherCarraway

Raeyleigh wrote: »

What can magdk even do better than stamdk?

Magdkhp necro can permablock tho.

xylena_lazarow

Surprised nobody brought up that mdk won a 50m gold dueling tournament recently. Neither version of dk can possibly be called "bad" but their great 1v1 toolkit does not translate as well to open world or group combat as well as the other tanky brawlers like stamden. Why? Well here's some cool open world dk stuff they deleted...

Chaining players off keep walls from the ground

Leaping up into keeps

Reflecting projectiles

Eruption as an AoE disorient (stun that breaks on taking damage, deleted mechanic)

It's like they're still traumatized from the broken vamp mdk demigods that plagued PvP at launch. The biggest one was clipping wings, if mdk got even a reduced power wing reflect back that matched the power budget of sorc Ball of Lightning or warden Shimmering Shield, then mdk would return to open world. It's also insane to me that a solo dk leaping into a keep is a problem, but a nigh immortal ball group running the walls inside an unflagged keep for hours is fine?