Selfish Sets

zvavi

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

The long and short of it is it’s just not fun to tank this game was made for DD that’s no secret so on top of not being able to play the game the way it was meant to be played. You also have to give buffs so other people can can all out on damage. It’s not fair and it’s the main reason we have had a tank shortage since year one.

I call bullcrap on this. I played games in which queue had 1 tank per group of 6, tanks still had a shortage. The reason players don't play tanks, is that they don't enjoy playing supports. That's it. The part of how the support exactly works, is flavor. I for example, prefer how it works here than other MMOs.

Jofish

Hmm..

ForeverJenn

Ackwalan wrote: »

ForeverJenn wrote: »

I thought this way in the beginning, but no. I main healers and tanks. Support classes should wear support sets. If the tank is dying then he or the healer is doing something wrong. If the healer is not healing enough they aren't wearing a good support set, doesn't understand their rotation, or dps is taking too long and the tank is struggling. For example, It is selfish to wear Sanctuary as a healer, it isn't needed if you are good at healing and brings little to a group.


A healer just standing there healing is useless. They need to be keeping up buffs and debuffs so that dps doesn't run out of resources.

A tank just standing there blocking is also useless. They need to be buffing and debuffing and rounding up adds

They are called support roles for a reason.


Is this required in you normal casual content? No, but it breeds bad habits and leaves players clueless when trying to do harder content.

Who is calling them support rolls? Could it be the DD folks that want other players to wear gear for what they want.

No just people that understand that non-damage dealers are there to support the damage dealers.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

The long and short of it is it’s just not fun to tank this game was made for DD that’s no secret so on top of not being able to play the game the way it was meant to be played. You also have to give buffs so other people can can all out on damage. It’s not fair and it’s the main reason we have had a tank shortage since year one.

Some have no problem with group support but most people do have a problem with it. I say this cause everyone is able to made a tank and yet we still have so few. You don’t see tanks in a one hour queue players are still not making tanks. Why pay money and use your limited free time to not have fun.

No matter how you look at it or which side you’re on the reality is clear the way the system is caused a massive shortage in tanks. Tank role is just boring as hell.

It's not that it's boring. I find tanking pretty fun. It's that support roles aren't competitive. No one "parses" a tanking or healing number. No one goes into vMA to get better at tanking or healing. You learn the class by actually involving yourself in group content and a lot you gotta on your own. We don't get 700 million YouTube videos to follow. A lOt of it is just what we learn over the course of being comitted. It's not an easy road and takes growing pains and most people are not going to bother with something like that.

THAT is why there is a tanking shortage.

Xebov

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Some have no problem with group support but most people do have a problem with it. I say this cause everyone is able to made a tank and yet we still have so few. You don’t see tanks in a one hour queue players are still not making tanks. Why pay money and use your limited free time to not have fun.

Besides the issues created by ZOS the main issue i see is that the life cycle of a tank is full of extremes made by players.
For entry level group content you get frequently told tanks are not needed, so why create one? If you still create one and want advice you immediately get pushed into the buff bot direction with selfish sets for an easier start getting talked down or voted down, while DDs favorite buff choice gets advertised as the only way to go. If you get into entry level tanking you frequently meet complaints or harassment because low tier dds need better tanks to get content done.
For the entry into end game you reach the next extremes. Try to get into vet Trial groups (beginner groups) and you frequently are expected to wear full buff gear and have alot of gear available to switch around. The group you are then presented to consists of medium tier DDs, but the medium tier tank that would be available and might not be ready yet to tank such content with full buff gear is not accepted, because again a good tank is needed to get things going.
The learning phase for tanks is simply not very pretty and i can understand why ppl dont want to do it.

zvavi wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

The long and short of it is it’s just not fun to tank this game was made for DD that’s no secret so on top of not being able to play the game the way it was meant to be played. You also have to give buffs so other people can can all out on damage. It’s not fair and it’s the main reason we have had a tank shortage since year one.

I call bullcrap on this. I played games in which queue had 1 tank per group of 6, tanks still had a shortage. The reason players don't play tanks, is that they don't enjoy playing supports. That's it. The part of how the support exactly works, is flavor. I for example, prefer how it works here than other MMOs.

Other games surely have shortages too, no doubt. But the community in ESO has a heavy impact on why we have shortages in Tanks.

ForeverJenn

Xebov wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Some have no problem with group support but most people do have a problem with it. I say this cause everyone is able to made a tank and yet we still have so few. You don’t see tanks in a one hour queue players are still not making tanks. Why pay money and use your limited free time to not have fun.

Besides the issues created by ZOS the main issue i see is that the life cycle of a tank is full of extremes made by players.
For entry level group content you get frequently told tanks are not needed, so why create one? If you still create one and want advice you immediately get pushed into the buff bot direction with selfish sets for an easier start getting talked down or voted down, while DDs favorite buff choice gets advertised as the only way to go. If you get into entry level tanking you frequently meet complaints or harassment because low tier dds need better tanks to get content done.
For the entry into end game you reach the next extremes. Try to get into vet Trial groups (beginner groups) and you frequently are expected to wear full buff gear and have alot of gear available to switch around. The group you are then presented to consists of medium tier DDs, but the medium tier tank that would be available and might not be ready yet to tank such content with full buff gear is not accepted, because again a good tank is needed to get things going.
The learning phase for tanks is simply not very pretty and i can understand why ppl dont want to do it.

zvavi wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

The long and short of it is it’s just not fun to tank this game was made for DD that’s no secret so on top of not being able to play the game the way it was meant to be played. You also have to give buffs so other people can can all out on damage. It’s not fair and it’s the main reason we have had a tank shortage since year one.

I call bullcrap on this. I played games in which queue had 1 tank per group of 6, tanks still had a shortage. The reason players don't play tanks, is that they don't enjoy playing supports. That's it. The part of how the support exactly works, is flavor. I for example, prefer how it works here than other MMOs.

Other games surely have shortages too, no doubt. But the community in ESO has a heavy impact on why we have shortages in Tanks.

Yes. MMOs in general have been about who can stand there and press buttons better. Lord forbid they consider paying attention to the fight and play a reactive support role. Heck, half of them can't even even be bothered to move out of AOEs or bash to interrupt. 😂

WrathOfInnos

josiahva wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It’s not a matter of providing stats to one ally vs stats to yourself. Group-oriented sets benefit everyone, and increasing group DPS gets everyone through the content quicker and often easier.

“Selfish” sets are typically those that do nothing beneficial for anyone other than the user. It’s understandable if someone needs these to survive or sustain, but ideally they wouldn’t rely on it as they become more familiar with the content. For example Plague Doctor can give health to the tank, but if they can get away with Ebon then the group will likely have a smoother run (it’s not always about damage buffs).

When it comes to healer sets, there’s typically an expectation of sets like Spell Power Cure or Olorime. This is because it helps the group and themselves more than alternatives. The 430 Spell Power given by these sets outweighs “selfish” options like Julianos or Healer’s Habit even if they were solo, and providing a significant buff to the group makes it the obvious choice. Most healing proc sets also end up with lower healing output than just using a set that buffs themselves and others.

Another point that should be made is that “selfish sets” are not always helping the user perform their role better. It’s pretty common to see players using sets that are objectively weak just because they have a cool visual effect. They have every right to do so, but it’s understandable that those relying on them in groups would prefer they use better options. For example, I think it’s fair to call Ashen Grip a selfish set for a DPS to wear. It’s cool-looking, fun to use, but it’s such a poor DPS set that it ends up wasting the time of everyone else in the group.

The least selfish thing a DPS can do is build for maximum group damage (sometimes this means sets that buff other DPS too, like elemental catalyst, other times it’s individual sets like Siroria or Relequen).

This viewpoint, while accurate is also misleading.

For instance, if I have a choice between ONLY Plague Doctor or Ebon, as a tank I am going to chose Plague Doctor 95% of the time...not because I have anything against giving group members an extra 1200 health, but because 95% of the time, if a DPS is below 1200 health, they are dead anyway...therefore the group will get more benefit from a tank that take that extra bit of damage than a DPS who can, after all if a tank is doing their job, its them who has the vast majority of aggro.(To be clear I have no use at all for plague doctor these days aside from maybe one or two fights(comes in handy for Dranos in vCoS when you get DPS who don't interrupt the clones pinning you), just pointing out how garbage Ebon really is compared to virtually any other set you could equip).

More importantly though, you are looking at the entire idea of a group through the lens of end-game content where the only thing that matters is DPS. Yes, DPS absolutely does matter and you should push it as much as possible where needed. If you a pugging something like vCOAII its ridiculous and very much selfish to ask or expect anyone in the group to wear buff sets. Buff sets that buff the entire group are far more effective in a trial setting than they are in a dungeon setting. The tank wearing Yoln and Alkosh(assuming they hit 3k) in a trial is a HUGE ground DPS buff...but in some random dungeon pug? Unless you get extremely lucky and get 2 good DPS, those sets are virtually a waste.

The point the OP has is that when DPS expect the tank or healer to wear group buffing sets when they themselves would never consider wearing a set that helps the tank or healer is hypocritical and selfish. Case in point:

I pug vDSA in Craglorn with 3 mediocre DPS(fairly common). We get to the last boss, and I say, "ok, which one of you has a taunt for the boss?" the answer I get is silence...its rare a DPS even has a taunt unlocked, or are able to heal themselves well enough to hold the last boss there....but at the same time these same DPS are the ones who will yell at you for running an off-tank setup in vet Darkshade II because it drops their own personal DPS 5k (even if the overall group DPS is higher because you are putting out 20k).

I think the real problem here is a combination of the laser focus in this game on DPS above all else even in content it truly doesn't matter...combined with rigid role expectations, its really a problem stemming from the community more than anything else.

vFV before the nerfs is a good example for this as well. In particular the Centurion fight. This is a fight that group DPS simply does not(or rather did not) matter AT ALL. You could put out 2 billion DPS and the centurion would still do his thing. As a tank, for this fight my favored sets are Lord Warden, Imperium and....Kagrenac's Hope. It allowed me to rez people actually during the laser phase...very useful. I lost count of how many DPS just die like flies in this fight. They may have put out a lot of DPS, but unless they were really skilled they would still die all the time here. Why? Because they were all glass cannons and the shockwaves from the spheres just destroyed them(not much you could do about that, the group was forced to move together). Not once did I see a DPS say "hey, I should change gear to something with more resistance" even though THAT is what would have increased the chances of the group winning the fight. Chances are that most DPS don't even carry sets that will make them tankier. The reason being of course is that sets that would help you survive there hurt your DPS significantly. It shows just how focused on "moar DPS" people are. I find it hilarious(but unsurprising) that ZOS caved to those people and nerfed one of the few fights in the game that DPS didn't actually matter

@josiahva You make some interesting points. I’ll agree that Ebon isn’t a very useful set these days, everyone has a lot of base health, and health multipliers are not what they used to be. I only brought it up as an example of a group support (non-selfish) set that isn’t directly focused on buffing allies’ DPS. Indirectly it has been used in the past to increase DPS, by allowing the group to invest more into Magicka/Stamina while receiving the minimum required health from a tank in Ebon. In your Frostvault example, it’s entirely possible the “glass cannon” DPS were used to having a tank with Ebon (it was probably the most common dungeon tank set until recently), and would not have been dying with that extra ~1.3k health. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a DPS carrying tanky sets for harder fights, maybe slot a shield, blade cloak, vigor, or even iceheart at the absolute most, and encounters like that should be no problem.

For the Darkshade 2 example, I agree with you completely. Group DPS is the only thing that matters, not individual parses. Swapping to an off-tank build on this case seems reasonable if you know the full tank isn’t needed and that others aren’t making great use of your buffs.

In general, I believe tanks and healers are extremely important in maximizing group DPS with all of their buff skills and sets. Their contribution may not show up as a nice clean number at the end of a fight (in CMX or logs), but in reality almost half of the damage done can be traced back to good supports. This is why I think it’s counterproductive when people act like support sets only benefit the DPS players. They make the group better, and everyone in that group benefits.

The only indicators of success in this game are not dying, and completing things fast. Once the first one is taken care of the only way to improve the 2nd one is by increasing group DPS. In trials these are obviously tracked by vitality and time, which are used to calculate score. In dungeons it’s not this explicit, but the run is smooth without deaths and fast if enemies die quickly.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

zvavi wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

The long and short of it is it’s just not fun to tank this game was made for DD that’s no secret so on top of not being able to play the game the way it was meant to be played. You also have to give buffs so other people can can all out on damage. It’s not fair and it’s the main reason we have had a tank shortage since year one.

I call bullcrap on this. I played games in which queue had 1 tank per group of 6, tanks still had a shortage. The reason players don't play tanks, is that they don't enjoy playing supports. That's it. The part of how the support exactly works, is flavor. I for example, prefer how it works here than other MMOs.

That’s other games I was here in open Beta and here when this was the “WoW Killer” had no problem getting a tank throw a stick in any town and you would hit five of them. A year in the hype was down so were the numbers but tanks were still available less tanks but less players as well ESO didn’t have a support problem earlier on. As the metas took hold tanks started falling away.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

ForeverJenn wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

ForeverJenn wrote: »

I thought this way in the beginning, but no. I main healers and tanks. Support classes should wear support sets. If the tank is dying then he or the healer is doing something wrong. If the healer is not healing enough they aren't wearing a good support set, doesn't understand their rotation, or dps is taking too long and the tank is struggling. For example, It is selfish to wear Sanctuary as a healer, it isn't needed if you are good at healing and brings little to a group.


A healer just standing there healing is useless. They need to be keeping up buffs and debuffs so that dps doesn't run out of resources.

A tank just standing there blocking is also useless. They need to be buffing and debuffing and rounding up adds

They are called support roles for a reason.


Is this required in you normal casual content? No, but it breeds bad habits and leaves players clueless when trying to do harder content.

Who is calling them support rolls? Could it be the DD folks that want other players to wear gear for what they want.

No just people that understand that non-damage dealers are there to support the damage dealers.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

The long and short of it is it’s just not fun to tank this game was made for DD that’s no secret so on top of not being able to play the game the way it was meant to be played. You also have to give buffs so other people can can all out on damage. It’s not fair and it’s the main reason we have had a tank shortage since year one.

Some have no problem with group support but most people do have a problem with it. I say this cause everyone is able to made a tank and yet we still have so few. You don’t see tanks in a one hour queue players are still not making tanks. Why pay money and use your limited free time to not have fun.

No matter how you look at it or which side you’re on the reality is clear the way the system is caused a massive shortage in tanks. Tank role is just boring as hell.

It's not that it's boring. I find tanking pretty fun. It's that support roles aren't competitive. No one "parses" a tanking or healing number. No one goes into vMA to get better at tanking or healing. You learn the class by actually involving yourself in group content and a lot you gotta on your own. We don't get 700 million YouTube videos to follow. A lOt of it is just what we learn over the course of being comitted. It's not an easy road and takes growing pains and most people are not going to bother with something like that.

THAT is why there is a tanking shortage.

It is that it’s boring do you remember Blazing Tanks? Sap Tanks? Storm Tanks? We used to have fun ways to tank I had a Nightblade tank that did the hardest content at the time that was stronger the more out numbered he was. A tank that would I was low on resources I just light attack like my life depended on it cause it did. The way Siphon Attack use to work was perfect for a tank. It was very and dynamic.

I had a tank that had to be in thick of it to live I could tank but not turtle tank I had to fight back to proc Siphon Attacks without it I would never have the resources to stay alive. It was FUN! Being a tank was actually fun did I give a single group buff nope but if it would be aggro it was why. Unlike all other tanks holt three bosses and and whole mess of adds only made me harder to kill I pull the room and hold it with zero effort WHILE add solid DPS doing so.

A Sap Tank of they rolled back abilities would be able to give group bonuses and still lay the smack down. You could tank with any class back then just not the same way it was a different path DK was the classic way to tank but everyone had their moments to shine.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Bad quote

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Xebov wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Some have no problem with group support but most people do have a problem with it. I say this cause everyone is able to made a tank and yet we still have so few. You don’t see tanks in a one hour queue players are still not making tanks. Why pay money and use your limited free time to not have fun.

Besides the issues created by ZOS the main issue i see is that the life cycle of a tank is full of extremes made by players.
For entry level group content you get frequently told tanks are not needed, so why create one? If you still create one and want advice you immediately get pushed into the buff bot direction with selfish sets for an easier start getting talked down or voted down, while DDs favorite buff choice gets advertised as the only way to go. If you get into entry level tanking you frequently meet complaints or harassment because low tier dds need better tanks to get content done.
For the entry into end game you reach the next extremes. Try to get into vet Trial groups (beginner groups) and you frequently are expected to wear full buff gear and have alot of gear available to switch around. The group you are then presented to consists of medium tier DDs, but the medium tier tank that would be available and might not be ready yet to tank such content with full buff gear is not accepted, because again a good tank is needed to get things going.
The learning phase for tanks is simply not very pretty and i can understand why ppl dont want to do it.

I do get that but you don’t see a problem with having healers for harder content you don’t see a problem with finding high end DPS. Just tanks if 1 of 3 roles is in a shortage at every content level it’s a problem with the role.

No you don’t need a tank for lowers content. You don’t need one but you should still some a large number of them anyway. Mid tier content where a tank is needed should be the sweet spot and end game top tier should be where finding a tank that can clear the content should be hard it should be a struggle at every level.

zvavi

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

The long and short of it is it’s just not fun to tank this game was made for DD that’s no secret so on top of not being able to play the game the way it was meant to be played. You also have to give buffs so other people can can all out on damage. It’s not fair and it’s the main reason we have had a tank shortage since year one.

I call bullcrap on this. I played games in which queue had 1 tank per group of 6, tanks still had a shortage. The reason players don't play tanks, is that they don't enjoy playing supports. That's it. The part of how the support exactly works, is flavor. I for example, prefer how it works here than other MMOs.

That’s other games I was here in open Beta and here when this was the “WoW Killer” had no problem getting a tank throw a stick in any town and you would hit five of them. A year in the hype was down so were the numbers but tanks were still available less tanks but less players as well ESO didn’t have a support problem earlier on. As the metas took hold tanks started falling away.

It feels like you stopped tanking, so it feels like there are less tanks. (As in, before when you couldn't get a hold of one you would relog). In my opinion what mostly discouraged tank lately is
1. the slowly but surely increasing rate of fake tank in queue, showing people they don't need to tank for low queue times, and discouraging people from leveling tanks.
2. With time more and more tanks have moved to premade only groups.
3. General direction of the game becoming more casual.

josiahva

zvavi wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

The long and short of it is it’s just not fun to tank this game was made for DD that’s no secret so on top of not being able to play the game the way it was meant to be played. You also have to give buffs so other people can can all out on damage. It’s not fair and it’s the main reason we have had a tank shortage since year one.

I call bullcrap on this. I played games in which queue had 1 tank per group of 6, tanks still had a shortage. The reason players don't play tanks, is that they don't enjoy playing supports. That's it. The part of how the support exactly works, is flavor. I for example, prefer how it works here than other MMOs.

That’s other games I was here in open Beta and here when this was the “WoW Killer” had no problem getting a tank throw a stick in any town and you would hit five of them. A year in the hype was down so were the numbers but tanks were still available less tanks but less players as well ESO didn’t have a support problem earlier on. As the metas took hold tanks started falling away.

It feels like you stopped tanking, so it feels like there are less tanks. (As in, before when you couldn't get a hold of one you would relog). In my opinion what mostly discouraged tank lately is
1. the slowly but surely increasing rate of fake tank in queue, showing people they don't need to tank for low queue times, and discouraging people from leveling tanks.
2. With time more and more tanks have moved to premade only groups.
3. General direction of the game becoming more casual.

I barely log in once a week anymore. I almost never DPS, and my healer is YEARS out of date so I don't even log onto that toon anymore...so when I do play, I tank almost exclusively...but the reason I am barely logging on any more is simply because its not fun to tank anymore. ZOS has been nerfing tanks for EVERY SINGLE PATCH....for YEARS. The only thing we can do effectively anymore is be a buff monkey and a target dummy for the enemies. Damage is down, skills are nerfed into oblivion, any fun or INTERESTING way to tank is immediately nerfed as soon as ZOS becomes aware of it. Blame it on PvP, or whatever you choose...but the fact of the matter is that ZOS hates tanks and it shows, no one wants to play a role that is virtually 100% dependent on the other 2 roles to do anything...people play the game to have fun...and tanking is no longer fun, I am sure healing isn't all that fun anymore either.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

zvavi wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Minor+major courage = ~10% dmg boost.
Crusher + minor +major breach = 11k penetrations = ~ 16% dmg boost.
Horn buff = ~3% resources additional ~7% force (shorter time).

Those are basic support buffs existing in almost any trial group, and only those boost damage by around 30% total. Implying that dds that don't have them need to re-evaluate their damage is silly, 30% different in damage is huge.

The long and short of it is it’s just not fun to tank this game was made for DD that’s no secret so on top of not being able to play the game the way it was meant to be played. You also have to give buffs so other people can can all out on damage. It’s not fair and it’s the main reason we have had a tank shortage since year one.

I call bullcrap on this. I played games in which queue had 1 tank per group of 6, tanks still had a shortage. The reason players don't play tanks, is that they don't enjoy playing supports. That's it. The part of how the support exactly works, is flavor. I for example, prefer how it works here than other MMOs.

That’s other games I was here in open Beta and here when this was the “WoW Killer” had no problem getting a tank throw a stick in any town and you would hit five of them. A year in the hype was down so were the numbers but tanks were still available less tanks but less players as well ESO didn’t have a support problem earlier on. As the metas took hold tanks started falling away.

It feels like you stopped tanking, so it feels like there are less tanks. (As in, before when you couldn't get a hold of one you would relog). In my opinion what mostly discouraged tank lately is
1. the slowly but surely increasing rate of fake tank in queue, showing people they don't need to tank for low queue times, and discouraging people from leveling tanks.
2. With time more and more tanks have moved to premade only groups.
3. General direction of the game becoming more casual.

Ohh no when I do PvE runs it’s as a tank it’s really boring but I clear runs with the standard DK tank I try to stay away from premade groups PuG need all the help they can get overall it’s better for games health long term.

The raise of fake tanks started because their was no real tanks or not enough. So DPS would queue as a tank instead of waiting for an hour to get there dailies. Now on moving to premade/guild only tanks that’s two fold first are the tanks that are more meta players and want a meta team. The other tanks just want to tank their way and have fun with it. Both tank are good or good enough that guilds make them feel welcomed.
Once you find a good tank you don’t let them go. Tanking in this game is drag overall you pay money to buff other players that’s a hard sell and a bad one given 7 years of data.

etchedpixels

josiahva wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

It feels like you stopped tanking, so it feels like there are less tanks. (As in, before when you couldn't get a hold of one you would relog). In my opinion what mostly discouraged tank lately is
1. the slowly but surely increasing rate of fake tank in queue, showing people they don't need to tank for low queue times, and discouraging people from leveling tanks.
2. With time more and more tanks have moved to premade only groups.
3. General direction of the game becoming more casual.

I barely log in once a week anymore. I almost never DPS, and my healer is YEARS out of date so I don't even log onto that toon anymore...so when I do play, I tank almost exclusively...but the reason I am barely logging on any more is simply because its not fun to tank anymore. ZOS has been nerfing tanks for EVERY SINGLE PATCH....for YEARS. The only thing we can do effectively anymore is be a buff monkey and a target dummy for the enemies. Damage is down, skills are nerfed into oblivion, any fun or INTERESTING way to tank is immediately nerfed as soon as ZOS becomes aware of it. Blame it on PvP, or whatever you choose...but the fact of the matter is that ZOS hates tanks and it shows, no one wants to play a role that is virtually 100% dependent on the other 2 roles to do anything...people play the game to have fun...and tanking is no longer fun, I am sure healing isn't all that fun anymore either.

I would disagree - tanks have been something they've throw a bunch of new meat to. We've had AoE taunts made useful, very general buffs (U28 if anything probably overbuffs tanks given I can and do sometimes tank normal dungeons in underwear). The next update has both changes to make proc sets more rôle sticky and also some skill adjustments to help fix gaps in classes when tanking.

The increase in more casual players means there is a lot more need for tanks with groups of newbies, and they are often much nicer about it than 'serious' players because they still remember they are playing to have fun not trying to complete fungal grotto 37 times in an hour to get the one missing piece for their collection.

Some of the fake tanks also slowly seem to be learning that if you equip a taunt, swap a 5 set for plague doctor and eat the right food, or just learn to spam shields and taunt on your magdd you stop being a fake tank and can properly tank normal dungeons.

Part of the problem IMHO is the mythology of tanking being hard. Tanking end game DLC content with complex mechanics demands a lot of skill and game knowledge, but keeping three squishies alive in crypt of hearts doesn't require any more skill than being a dd - maybe less because standing in the wrong places or forgetting to block the bosses big attack or leap doesn't actually hurt much and there's no mindless rotation practicing.

pelle412

Selfish/survival sets are absolutely the right thing to use if you are still learning to tank. In such a case, you support the group most by staying alive. If experienced tanks still choose to use selfish sets, then it starts being a waste of a good 5pc set bonus and you should consider swapping to something more group beneficial.

Seri

SirAndy wrote: »

Erelah wrote: »

I have heard the term selfish sets tossed around a lot recently. Typically, it comes from someone in a damage dealing role. It typically refers to other players who do not wear armor or use skills that makes the damage dealer be able to deal more damage.

Another reason to not have gear inspect.

People will always come up with something to make them feel superior. It's usually to mask their own shortcomings.

I'm surprised you didn't get more bites, but lets be honest... gear inspect wouldn't make a wad of difference - many of the support sets mentioned have rather distinctive visuals already. You can very easily tell if SPC, Olo, Zen, Worm/Ebon, Alkosh, etc is in the group just from the visual effects either on the player or during the fight.

No different to being able to tell if someone is providing Minor Magsteal or Lifesteal without needing any gear inspection.

Schokolade

When I play as dd, I prefer a selfish tank that do is main job (stay alive & keep the aggro); there are lot of skills for debuffing, I don't think that one set is so essential, is just a "bonus".

If you want me to play as a "non selfish" tank, then I expect every DD to do almost perfect dps, not just some damage (and with almost perfect rotation).
But you know, even when you have all that damage, the non selfish set become useful only for leaderboards (: