Selfish Sets

Erelah

I have heard the term selfish sets tossed around a lot recently. Typically, it comes from someone in a damage dealing role. It typically refers to other players who do not wear armor or use skills that makes the damage dealer be able to deal more damage.

Having played and still play all the roles this is selfish. If someone is tanking or healing, I do not expect they only use gear and skills that only benefits me. As we are a team, we all do our part to help each other. They do not exist to make me the most powerful damage dealer anymore than I exist to only do damage. I also raise if need be, interrupt mobs, and help with the mechanics, to prevent one person from being overwhelmed trying to do it all while I only focus on a rotation.

If a tank is wearing armor to keep them alive. I do not find it selfish I think the tank is making sure they perform their main function. Being a shield that I am not dying by staying up. If a healer is making sure we are not dying from things other than standing in red aoe I am generally happy. Do I like receiving shards? Sure, but not everyone is a templar. If they are wearing some armor sets to help them do their job I am happy.

Elsonso

The role with the most bio-mass gets to set the rules?

More seriously, MMO end-game game play is evaluate based on DPS, and the more DPS you do, the more the group does, and the happier everyone is. Tanks and Healers that provide overall DPS to the group only makes the group better.

FluffWit

For end game vet dlc trials I think running sets that buff other people is pretty much essential.

For pugging dungeons I'd just focus on yourself.

ThoughtRaven

OP is reading the word "selfish" and interpreting it without context. While the connotations of the word selfish in meatspace are generally negative, in the context of ESO it colloquially just means "set that helps the tank stay alive, but doesn't buff the group" and is a fairly neutral term in most situations. In fact there may be certain situations in which a tank may be encouraged to wear selfish sets by other members of their group.

WrathOfInnos

It’s not a matter of providing stats to one ally vs stats to yourself. Group-oriented sets benefit everyone, and increasing group DPS gets everyone through the content quicker and often easier.

“Selfish” sets are typically those that do nothing beneficial for anyone other than the user. It’s understandable if someone needs these to survive or sustain, but ideally they wouldn’t rely on it as they become more familiar with the content. For example Plague Doctor can give health to the tank, but if they can get away with Ebon then the group will likely have a smoother run (it’s not always about damage buffs).

When it comes to healer sets, there’s typically an expectation of sets like Spell Power Cure or Olorime. This is because it helps the group and themselves more than alternatives. The 430 Spell Power given by these sets outweighs “selfish” options like Julianos or Healer’s Habit even if they were solo, and providing a significant buff to the group makes it the obvious choice. Most healing proc sets also end up with lower healing output than just using a set that buffs themselves and others.

Another point that should be made is that “selfish sets” are not always helping the user perform their role better. It’s pretty common to see players using sets that are objectively weak just because they have a cool visual effect. They have every right to do so, but it’s understandable that those relying on them in groups would prefer they use better options. For example, I think it’s fair to call Ashen Grip a selfish set for a DPS to wear. It’s cool-looking, fun to use, but it’s such a poor DPS set that it ends up wasting the time of everyone else in the group.

The least selfish thing a DPS can do is build for maximum group damage (sometimes this means sets that buff other DPS too, like elemental catalyst, other times it’s individual sets like Siroria or Relequen).

B0SSzombie

The only reason to wear Selfish sets is if you're still getting used to the role. A Fresh Tank should absolutely use sets that help them practice being a good tank, like Plague Doctor.

But when they're used to doing end game content, they should be using stuff like Yolnakhriin or Alkosh.

Elsonso

B0SSzombie wrote: »

The only reason to wear Selfish sets is if you're still getting used to the role. A Fresh Tank should absolutely use sets that help them practice being a good tank, like Plague Doctor.

But when they're used to doing end game content, they should be using stuff like Yolnakhriin or Alkosh.

The space between those two... where people are grouping with unknowns... they should be prepared to be "selfish" if the need arises.

bmnoble

I will generally start a run wearing sets that benefit the group, depends how the group goes from there, I still made a point of farming a lot of selfish sets that I keep in my inventory for when things go poorly, I have options available to compensate somewhat before deciding the group is too much of a pain and leaving.

A thing people need to understand is a lot of new tanks need the safety net of selfish sets when starting out and getting use to their role, that does not mean they are going to be low CP characters either, when I finally started tanking, I was well over 600CP people kept asking me why I needed the quest in every dungeon on such a high level character or why I was not wearing META sets.

zvavi

I disagree. As the healer, it is your job to support the group.
Example:
I was running vCT. After the first boss fight, in which I took a total of wooping 20k damage, the healer healed 10k of them, across over 100 seconds. Which means my health regen was enough to out heal me at least trice. So what was the "role" of that healer in that fight? Heal the tank? What if the tank is wearing selfish sets that heal him automatically, what is the healer's job then? To spam heals on full health group?

Healer that only heals, is many times a healer that does nothing for the group's dungeon completion.

For the tank it is more complicated, in dungeons a set like leeching might being you more group damage than an actual support set (especially if dds are pretty bad), while it is fine wearing protective gear if you need it, but if you can survive with a less selfish gear to make dungeon faster for everyone, isn't it better?

Dagoth_Rac

ESO is a DPS-centric game. There may be other games, including other MMOs, where going slow and steady is a worthwhile tactic. Where you can tank or heal indefinitely. ESO is not that type of game. 99% of the time in ESO, the answer to any problem is: "Kill stuff faster." If you don't kill stuff fast enough, bosses enrage, you get overwhelmed with adds, mechanics become tougher and start to overlap, etc., etc.

Do you want to be last member of group alive during a doomed run because you can't kill stuff fast enough, or do you want to clear content as cleanly and effectively as possible?

Do you need this kind of meta group utility for a normal Fungal Grotto I? No. But any kind of serious endgame is about killing stuff fast, faster, fastest. It is just the way the game is designed.

Avalon

I'd rather the phrases or terms like, "Trusting" or "I don't know you!" Because that's how it generally works.

If I am in a group with people I KNOW then, I will be more than happy to slap on some so-called 'non-selfish' sets. However, if I am doing randoms, or getting into trials with people outside my guild/friends? I don't know you! You claim to be a healer... are you? Are you really? For all I know, you're using a resto staff and have nothing but DPS abilities (but, because you use a resto staff, you're a 'healer').

Seriously, some of them feel more like the Doc from BLs:
'Do me a favor. Buy potions so that I won't have to fix you up in the dungeon' or 'That'll buy ya a couple seconds, if nothin' else'

Just wish they were 'legally required' to tell you 'they ain't a real healer'.

But, that's why tanks end up using the 'selfish' stuff - because if they don't, there are WAY too many fake healers to trust that they will survive each fight - even if it's just trash. And, if you don't, then you must not be a real tank (despite the game being designed to have a healer to take care of the group, especially the tank - and without one?)

Elsonso

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

ESO is a DPS-centric game. There may be other games, including other MMOs, where going slow and steady is a worthwhile tactic. Where you can tank or heal indefinitely. ESO is not that type of game. 99% of the time in ESO, the answer to any problem is: "Kill stuff faster." If you don't kill stuff fast enough, bosses enrage, you get overwhelmed with adds, mechanics become tougher and start to overlap, etc., etc.

In my opinion, this is a very top level end-game statement. For the rest of the game, "kill stuff faster" mainly applies to just doing content faster.

VaranisArano

First off, I tank.

"Selfish" sets sound bad, but in this case, it's a simple descriptor of tanking gear and how it impacts the group.

"Selfish" sets only benefit the tank. "Non-selfish" sets benefit the group. A perfect example is Plague Doctor vs Ebon Armory. Both sets give the tank lots of health...but Ebon Armory also benefits the group.

There are times when "selfish" sets are just fine. In most random group dungeons, it doesn't make much difference what the tank is wearing as long as they stay alive. No one is expecting meta gear, extreme group support, or specific tank builds. If you are going to insist that your tank wear selfless group support sets instead of Plague Doctor or Leeching Plate in a random group dungeon, then you really need to make your own premade group instead. In fact, some tanks find they prefer running more Selfish sets because they PUG for randoms and don't know what they'll get.

However, there is content where you do need to invest in selfless group support sets: trials. There, groups get a lot of benefit from group support sets over and above what they get from a tank who can merely stay alive. When it's a group effort between 12 people, everyone contributes as best they can. That includes "selfless" sets and skills from the tank and the healers.

(Incidentally, if you'd like trial DDs to wear group support gear, blame ZOS for killing most of those sets. Does anyone else remember way back when when Sunderflame was briefly useful on a Stam DD?)

Athan1

The concept of "selfish" sets is just promoting the propaganda of score-pushing/meta groups that want to dictate what you wear, what you slot, and what you do. Support roles (real tanks, real healers) are already selfless because they give up dps, the core essence of games, to keep the group alive, even at the expense of their own health. If Plague Doctor or Crafty Alfiq help you survive and/or heal the group, then go for it. If someone has an issue, it's probably their problem.

Ackwalan

ZOS fights tend to focus on a narrow view. You have a time frame where the group does offense, then a window that is defense, rinse and repeat. You you miss where to stand during this dance, the group wipes, if you fail to do X amount of damage before the next step, the group wipes. It is very difficult to have a fight that AI can do that is balanced and challenging, so we end up with DPS checks.

oddbasket

The difference should only be an organised group coordinating to optimise the group, and a pug.

Anyone who expects it from a pug are the selfish ones. More than often, a tank doesn't realise the same or enough gains in a pug compared to a trial group to wear buff sets. Beginner healers can't be expected to be buff bots, but given experience they will shift focus to buffs when they are competent in healing.

Starlight_Whisper

Elsonso wrote: »

The role with the most bio-mass gets to set the rules?

More seriously, MMO end-game game play is evaluate based on DPS, and the more DPS you do, the more the group does, and the happier everyone is. Tanks and Healers that provide overall DPS to the group only makes the group better.

Part of the problem. HPS Healing should increase score like battlegrounds.

Starlight_Whisper

I hate the term. It's ridiculously that tanks building for survival or sustain are v
called selfish.

preevious

I don't know about selfish sets ..
...but you can wear shellfish sets by rocking the pyandonean style !

Septimus_Magna

It all depends on what you need, experienced tanks dont need sustain sets because they know when to drop block and heavy attack. Newer tanks will probably have more trouble so a sustain sets like Engine Guardian might be needed.

If you can sustain and survive without relying on 5pc bonuses or monster sets than its better to buff the group. When mobs die faster there's less chance to get overwhelmed, when bosses die faster there often are less mechanics you need to do and in general sustain gets easier and there's a smaller chance someone makes a mistake. This has led to the trend that end-game tanks only use sets that mainly buff the group.

I think its good for beginner tanks to not be carried too much by their sets so using Ebon or Worm (group+personal benefit) is a good starting point. Once you get more comfortable with tanking you can add sets like Yoln or Alkosh. The monster sets is an easy flex spot, eventually you want to work towards sets like Encratis/Tremorscale depending on the group.

Brrrofski

If you're doing stuff with people you know, then It makes sense to wear sets that buff your group.

If your doing dungeon finder, who cares. As long as you do your role properly, wear whatever.

People on this forum act like they need you to help them achieve an extra 3k DPS or you'll wipe on Engine Guardian.

Both my tank and healer that I do vet pledges on with randoms as a mix of job and DPS. Because I can give the dude pulling 10k DPS all the buffs in the world and the content will still take longer than me adding 15k DPS by using damage sets and skill.

I taunt or heal, but then do damage in the meantime.

Milchbart

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

I hate the term. It's ridiculously that tanks building for survival or sustain are v
called selfish.

If "staying alive" is all a tank offers for group performance that's like in real life showing up and sitting at your desk is enough for good work performance.
If I would show up with a selfish set in our vet dlc hm trials the raidlead would doubt my capability of tanking endgame content and rightfully replace me.

DukeCybran

In a pug of a normal dungeon, everyone can be self-oriented, because you are not to expect others to be meta players.

More often than not, as a healer, I swap to the hybrid DDS set when the group DPS is low. In this case, your definition of the word 'selfish' becomes vague: I don't wear the gear to buff other DDS but to deal damage myself.

Oliviander

the real problem is:
sets with group buffs shouldn't exist
the concept is ridiculous

zvavi

Oliviander wrote: »

the real problem is:
sets with group buffs shouldn't exist
the concept is ridiculous

What? Why wouldn't they? What kind of an MMO would like the group to support each other Less?

Vevvev

My tank still has one selfish set on hand since it's saved me, and the group indirectly, more times than I can count. I'm still thinking of group support in mind, but typically I keep that set and my Ults for personal survival since nothing is worse in a vet dungeon than for the tank to die, the DPS running around like chickens with their heads cut off, and for everyone to perish as a result.

Sarannah

As a tank I only wear selfish sets, as it helps me perform my role better. The small group buffs some sets give, either health or damage-wise, do not matter much. Besides, if players are even remotely adequate at performing their own roles they do not need outside help.

I barely ever have issues with low dps, despite only wearing selfish sets. This leads me to believe most of the claims about 'fake dps' are actually caused by bad tanking.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

End of the day, we are arguing over vocab and semantics.

People think of being selfish with a negative connotation, because we have all been taught since pre-school that being selfish is bad, so it naturally makes people get defensive when it is directed towards them.

Selfish in this context means that the set in question only serves you directly, and it does nothing directly for your group. Of course, if the sets keep you alive, it certainly indirectly benefits your group, just to get that argument out of the way. On it's face, selfish is a pretty good word for that. If you have a better one, then I am all ears. Haha.

In the context of score, there are really only two factors. Time and Deaths. Time comes down to DPS. More damage, less time, better score. There is a little more to it when it comes to deaths. Could be standing in stupid, could be a damage dealer being to glassy, could be a tank trying to hard to buff the group to their own detriment, (could be the tank dropped block at the wrong time), could be a lot of things.

In that context, support roles need to make a determination as to how "selfish" (for lack of a better term) they need to be which is balanced against their desire to buff the group, to better their overall score. Every support role needs to work with their group to determine the best balance and adjust as needed. There is no right or wrong here, but the best players can typically go all in on DPS, which means no selfish sets for the most part.

The problem is that this mentality tends to spill into groupfinder, where it is way less relevant. Score does not exist, but there is still arguably an incentive to minimize time (increase DPS), and minimize deaths (mostly because its frustrating to wipe or constantly be res'ing someone you don't know).

If you are getting hassled in group finder about wearing selfish sets, my advice is to ignore them. It is unreasonable for a DPS to expect buff bots out of their tanks and healers in groupfinder. My Groupfinder tank build is typiclaly one selfish set, one support set. Never had a complaint. If you are getting hassled by a pre-made group, well, then it is not on its face an unreasonable thing to discuss, especially if you are going for score or generally trying to improve your time. Most tanks have the burden of needing to carry multiple sets. It is what it is.

My other piece of advice is to not get bent out of the shape over the term selfish, because it is an accurate term for the issue we are describing.

SirAndy

Erelah wrote: »

I have heard the term selfish sets tossed around a lot recently. Typically, it comes from someone in a damage dealing role. It typically refers to other players who do not wear armor or use skills that makes the damage dealer be able to deal more damage.

Another reason to not have gear inspect.

People will always come up with something to make them feel superior. It's usually to mask their own shortcomings.

Heimdarm

Erelah wrote: »

I have heard the term selfish sets tossed around a lot recently. Typically, it comes from someone in a damage dealing role. It typically refers to other players who do not wear armor or use skills that makes the damage dealer be able to deal more damage.

Having played and still play all the roles this is selfish. If someone is tanking or healing, I do not expect they only use gear and skills that only benefits me. As we are a team, we all do our part to help each other. They do not exist to make me the most powerful damage dealer anymore than I exist to only do damage. I also raise if need be, interrupt mobs, and help with the mechanics, to prevent one person from being overwhelmed trying to do it all while I only focus on a rotation.

If a tank is wearing armor to keep them alive. I do not find it selfish I think the tank is making sure they perform their main function. Being a shield that I am not dying by staying up. If a healer is making sure we are not dying from things other than standing in red aoe I am generally happy. Do I like receiving shards? Sure, but not everyone is a templar. If they are wearing some armor sets to help them do their job I am happy.

I just returned/rebought the game so, I haven't done much things ingame lately. However, I tanked almost all content before. I was a PVE and PVP tank as well, with good and with quiet the troll builds as well.

You are absolutely right and only the alltime elitist crybabies will say otherwise.

A tank job is to tank, to be an undestroyable, invincible, permablock brick and hold aggro. Why wear "selfish" set? Because if something goes wrong, which tends to happen, the tank should be ready not to die. If you have to go to a place to revive someone, if you want to change your usual tactic for someone else's mistake you must survive. If you die, everyone dies and the game is over. And this is not only about human mistake. There can be an unexpected lag for a player or for more players, any technical issues, bugs etc..

The healer should heal, point. No dps, no support, only heal, even if it looks not important. I was with healers who did dps and support. Their heal was insufficient many times, not for me, cause I wear selfish sets, but the dps players died here and there. Focus on your *** role and everyone survives.

The dps should do damage. But not for the expense of healer and tank. I was in vet dlc contents long ago with support heals and myself also weared support sets. We died here and there, mostly because we needed to help out the stupid dps players. Changed sets. Everyone wore sets to his/her class and voila, the content was a piece of cake. Easy.

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

mobicera

Heimdarm wrote: »

Erelah wrote: »

I have heard the term selfish sets tossed around a lot recently. Typically, it comes from someone in a damage dealing role. It typically refers to other players who do not wear armor or use skills that makes the damage dealer be able to deal more damage.

Having played and still play all the roles this is selfish. If someone is tanking or healing, I do not expect they only use gear and skills that only benefits me. As we are a team, we all do our part to help each other. They do not exist to make me the most powerful damage dealer anymore than I exist to only do damage. I also raise if need be, interrupt mobs, and help with the mechanics, to prevent one person from being overwhelmed trying to do it all while I only focus on a rotation.

If a tank is wearing armor to keep them alive. I do not find it selfish I think the tank is making sure they perform their main function. Being a shield that I am not dying by staying up. If a healer is making sure we are not dying from things other than standing in red aoe I am generally happy. Do I like receiving shards? Sure, but not everyone is a templar. If they are wearing some armor sets to help them do their job I am happy.

I just returned/rebought the game so, I haven't done much things ingame lately. However, I tanked almost all content before. I was a PVE and PVP tank as well, with good and with quiet the troll builds as well.

You are absolutely right and only the alltime elitist crybabies will say otherwise.

A tank job is to tank, to be an undestroyable, invincible, permablock brick and hold aggro. Why wear "selfish" set? Because if something goes wrong, which tends to happen, the tank should be ready not to die. If you have to go to a place to revive someone, if you want to change your usual tactic for someone else's mistake you must survive. If you die, everyone dies and the game is over. And this is not only about human mistake. There can be an unexpected lag for a player or for more players, any technical issues, bugs etc..

The healer should heal, point. No dps, no support, only heal, even if it looks not important. I was with healers who did dps and support. Their heal was insufficient many times, not for me, cause I wear selfish sets, but the dps players died here and there. Focus on your *** role and everyone survives.

The dps should do damage. But not for the expense of healer and tank. I was in vet dlc contents long ago with support heals and myself also weared support sets. We died here and there, mostly because we needed to help out the stupid dps players. Changed sets. Everyone wore sets to his/her class and voila, the content was a piece of cake. Easy.

The big truth is, that if the damage dealer members of the party requires additional support from the healer and the tank, than they are not ready for the content, cause their damage is clearly low. Work on it.

Please post a console pov of godslayer or dawnbringer without the use of any group buff sets.
Otherwise you are incorrect, ty.