Why there are so many "Fake Tanks"

Iccotak

List of Reasons why we have "Fake Tanks",

1) Ever increasing skill gap as consequence of ZOS making Overland too simple and never encouraging the player to get better or even learn how to properly play the game's mechanics. There is no reason to quest with a friend and be the tank when Overland content is extremely simple and easy.

2) Since ZOS makes Overland too simple, they also make Normal Dungeons increasingly easier so then an increasing population of players with next to No Know-How can do the content.

3) None of the content actually pushes players to do the dungeons - except for undaunted. Despite the Devs intentions, the game actually encourages players to stay in a comfort bubble. So someone can actually reach Level 50 with Max CP and never really learn how to play the game.

Following this line of events, from 1-3, we have more & more players who aren't good at playing the game, for all roles. Moving on...

4) Dungeons 2 part answer (Farming Transmute Stones)
- A. Base Game Dungeons, are VERY easy - even on Veteran - in comparison to DLC dungeons. So DPS players queue as tank for faster load times hoping to get a base game dungeon because at a certain skill level and DPS output + Self Heal, you don't need a tank anymore for base game dungeons
- B. Random Dungeon Queue has equal rewards for both Normal & Veteran - so it doesn't encourage people to do the harder content and thus get better. Incentivizing a playstyle of DPS rushing through dungeons, and queue as tank to get faster load time.

5) ZOS does too much Nerf Hammer for balancing content like PvP and for promoting new content, which makes it harder to maintain builds utility in harder content.

6) Nobody wants to play Tank or Healer because they are only good in Group content, require a lot of gear, and feel punishing to play. (EDIT: Which also means a lot of changing of; Attributes, CP, Skills or even Morphs, and Gear - just to play a role that is only viable in SOME of the content in the game.)

7) Supporting Roles have a lot more pressure to do well & things to keep track of in order to stay on top of their role - especially in endgame content.
Meeting others expectations as a Support Role is A LOT of work and stress that DPS doesn't have to deal with. DPS has other things to worry about but Support roles have the pressure to "Support" Everyone else. There is a lot of toxicity when some deem you do not meet those expectations. Most do not want that burden. - So there is a vacuum for Tanks/Healers that other people take advantage of for faster load times

8) While other classes can do the Tank Role, depending on the build and skill of the player, there is clearly one class' tool kit that is most suited to the role.

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Now - to be clear this is not entirely unique to ESO. Being a support role is often not popular across the genre of MMOs and Cooperative play. Most people want to be the damage dealer.
If ZOS wants to solve the issue of Fake Tanks then they have two things they would have to work on (IMO)
1. Actually encourage players to Learn how to play the game.
2. Make the Tanking playstyle more viable AND Fun to play.

Starlight_Whisper

Cause dps queue is to long. It's time for six man dungeons.

Hexi

Because most people don't have multiple characters, and tanks are only useful in group content, so most don't wanna be crap 95% of their game time or spend money respeccing all the time.

Starlight_Whisper

Hexi wrote: »

Because most people don't have multiple characters, and tanks are only useful in group content, so most don't wanna be crap 95% of their game time or spend money respeccing all the time.

Just be a werewolf then on tank. Problem solved.

Agenericname

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Cause dps queue is to long. It's time for six man dungeons.

It would take a lot of work to configure ESO's dungeons for 6 people. Most are tuned for 4. Crypt of Hearts 2, the boss before the portal. You couldn't fit more than 4 without someone dying. SCP synergies, UG abyss, FV skeever phase, MHK sigil phases, MoS Indrik fight, FH colossus and final boss, and that's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

It's also not the real issue. The issue is that tanks don't want to queue. Even if you could magically change all of the mechanics that made more than 4 player's a liability, they still aren't needed in much of the content. Why would I ever queue for a normal dungeon where not only am I not needed, but many would rather just have another DD to make it go faster? That's really where the fake tank issue is after all. This is all about farming transmutes and XP, which is the exact same for both. It doesn't happen nearly as often in vet DLCs.

Iccotak

Agenericname wrote: »

Why would I ever queue for a normal dungeon where not only am I not needed

Not needed because it is a dungeon that is far below your skill & power level. If everyone in the group of say a level 20-25 dungeon is relatively the same level and power - then a tank is fine.

The system as it is now rewards people queuing for Normal as well as "queuing & ditching" until they get a Base Game Dungeon.

Which goes back to point 4A, the difficulty gap between base game and dungeon DLCs in very high.

Fennwitty

Because daily random normal is the only real way to farm transmute stones.

Hexi

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Hexi wrote: »

Because most people don't have multiple characters, and tanks are only useful in group content, so most don't wanna be crap 95% of their game time or spend money respeccing all the time.

Just be a werewolf then on tank. Problem solved.

I have tank, heal, NB melee DPS and Necro ranged DPS that I do dungeons with, don't @ me. I was just saying why there is a tank shortage and people just queue as whatever.

Starlight_Whisper

Agenericname wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Cause dps queue is to long. It's time for six man dungeons.

It would take a lot of work to configure ESO's dungeons for 6 people. Most are tuned for 4. Crypt of Hearts 2, the boss before the portal. You couldn't fit more than 4 without someone dying. SCP synergies, UG abyss, FV skeever phase, MHK sigil phases, MoS Indrik fight, FH colossus and final boss, and that's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

It's also not the real issue. The issue is that tanks don't want to queue. Even if you could magically change all of the mechanics that made more than 4 player's a liability, they still aren't needed in much of the content. Why would I ever queue for a normal dungeon where not only am I not needed, but many would rather just have another DD to make it go faster? That's really where the fake tank issue is after all. This is all about farming transmutes and XP, which is the exact same for both. It doesn't happen nearly as often in vet DLCs.

There's tanks in queue but ratio of dps is too high. It's part of the problem. You can fix other problems that exist with tank but never will there be enough at current ratio. Some dps wait an hour plus to get in. Also doesn't hurt if newer dungeons are 6 man.

Iccotak

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Cause dps queue is to long. It's time for six man dungeons.

It would take a lot of work to configure ESO's dungeons for 6 people. Most are tuned for 4. Crypt of Hearts 2, the boss before the portal. You couldn't fit more than 4 without someone dying. SCP synergies, UG abyss, FV skeever phase, MHK sigil phases, MoS Indrik fight, FH colossus and final boss, and that's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

It's also not the real issue. The issue is that tanks don't want to queue. Even if you could magically change all of the mechanics that made more than 4 player's a liability, they still aren't needed in much of the content. Why would I ever queue for a normal dungeon where not only am I not needed, but many would rather just have another DD to make it go faster? That's really where the fake tank issue is after all. This is all about farming transmutes and XP, which is the exact same for both. It doesn't happen nearly as often in vet DLCs.

There's tanks in queue but ratio of dps is too high. It's part of the problem. You can fix other problems that exist with tank but never will there be enough at current ratio. Some dps wait an hour plus to get in. Also doesn't hurt if newer dungeons are 6 man.

I don't think that will entirely solve the problem - as it just adds more space for DPS, it doesn't encourage people to play tanks which is what a solution should be aimed towards

crazepdx

I play mainly dps, after having seen the way tanks and to a degree healers get treated in dungeons. I wouldn't want to be in that role.

Starlight_Whisper

Iccotak wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Cause dps queue is to long. It's time for six man dungeons.

It would take a lot of work to configure ESO's dungeons for 6 people. Most are tuned for 4. Crypt of Hearts 2, the boss before the portal. You couldn't fit more than 4 without someone dying. SCP synergies, UG abyss, FV skeever phase, MHK sigil phases, MoS Indrik fight, FH colossus and final boss, and that's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

It's also not the real issue. The issue is that tanks don't want to queue. Even if you could magically change all of the mechanics that made more than 4 player's a liability, they still aren't needed in much of the content. Why would I ever queue for a normal dungeon where not only am I not needed, but many would rather just have another DD to make it go faster? That's really where the fake tank issue is after all. This is all about farming transmutes and XP, which is the exact same for both. It doesn't happen nearly as often in vet DLCs.

There's tanks in queue but ratio of dps is too high. It's part of the problem. You can fix other problems that exist with tank but never will there be enough at current ratio. Some dps wait an hour plus to get in. Also doesn't hurt if newer dungeons are 6 man.

I don't think that will entirely solve the problem - as it just adds more space for DPS, it doesn't encourage people to play tanks which is what a solution should be aimed towards

It's not entire solution but we got to look at why people are faking and queue time is a big part of it. Even before fake tank plague queues were long.

Iccotak

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Cause dps queue is to long. It's time for six man dungeons.

It would take a lot of work to configure ESO's dungeons for 6 people. Most are tuned for 4. Crypt of Hearts 2, the boss before the portal. You couldn't fit more than 4 without someone dying. SCP synergies, UG abyss, FV skeever phase, MHK sigil phases, MoS Indrik fight, FH colossus and final boss, and that's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

It's also not the real issue. The issue is that tanks don't want to queue. Even if you could magically change all of the mechanics that made more than 4 player's a liability, they still aren't needed in much of the content. Why would I ever queue for a normal dungeon where not only am I not needed, but many would rather just have another DD to make it go faster? That's really where the fake tank issue is after all. This is all about farming transmutes and XP, which is the exact same for both. It doesn't happen nearly as often in vet DLCs.

There's tanks in queue but ratio of dps is too high. It's part of the problem. You can fix other problems that exist with tank but never will there be enough at current ratio. Some dps wait an hour plus to get in. Also doesn't hurt if newer dungeons are 6 man.

I don't think that will entirely solve the problem - as it just adds more space for DPS, it doesn't encourage people to play tanks which is what a solution should be aimed towards

It's not entire solution but we got to look at why people are faking and queue time is a big part of it. Even before fake tank plague queues were long.

and the reason the queue time is so long is because Not enough people are playing Tanks or Healers.

there would be less DPS wait list if more people played tanks - so the solution is to get people to play the support roles more often.

Which sounds like a whole lot less work and more productive than reconfiguring 4 man dungeons into 6 man dungeons.

Iccotak

Quoting what someone else pointed out - don't mind the salt.

TL;DR - Pandering to Hybrid Builds for DPS discourages people from playing support Roles. The game doesn't do a good job of creating the demand for Support Roles which are ONLY good in high end group content

Ceejengine wrote: »

The reason there aren't any tanks or heals is pretty simple.

DPS outnumber both support roles 10 to 1.

DPS want to see big numbers and kill things quickly. When that doesn't happen they whine & complain. Just like the dozen + replies to this thread, and the dozen + threads identical to this one. ZOS MUST change something so their queue times aren't an hour or more. They don't have to change anything
Their job is big number not heal or tank. Except when that big number is the number of minutes they've been in queue.

Its never their fault. Its not their fault the level 27 tank didn't keep up with the CP980 magden that Bird of Prey'd through all the trash then pulled the boss. That tank spent all his limited stamina sprinting to keep up. Then that tank couldn't block and everyone died. Then the DPS flames the tank and that person reserves to never deal with random trash DPS again.

And they don't have to. They'll get in a guild and group with people they know and like. Its wonderful. Stress free. Room to grow. Patience to learn. None of the migraine that is random general queue.

If you want to see direct examples - go find one of the hundreds of posts made by a new player asking people in randoms not to rush so they can have fun too. Go look at the replies. Find the ones that have 5+ agrees. What did that person say?

"Randoms aren't for you to learn. They have no responsibility to wait for you."

"Its their daily too and they don't want to wait for a newbie. If you can't keep up, don't queue."

"If you want to slow down and do the story, don't waste people's time in randoms. They signed up to get the dungeon done quickly, and you're ruining that. If you want to go slow, do it with a pre-made group."

Then look at these threads popping up wondering how in all the worlds could people not be tanking for memeeme.

These posts are demanding that ZOS force people to tank for them. Like, what?? What value is there in suffering through 10-20 minutes with insufferable people just to get them their random daily reward?

Why would anyone willingly deal with that?

Oh wait, we don't.

Its not the overwhelmingly toxic DPS playerbase's fault that causes tanks to avoid them, its that those tanks are selfish and rude for not catering to their every whim.

I've played since beta. I've seen whiners consistently complain about how damage abilities should heal. Buffs should be widely available on damage abilities. Everything should allow them to easily solo overland content.

This is all a byproduct of those complaints.

No one queues as healers because they're worthless in everything but hard content, and even then theyre boring to play except when you get to dodge roll..

Its also miserable to play as a solo healer. You do 0 damage and any healing you do output is a massive overhead. Then when you do queue theres something like an 85% chance any mistake they make is going to get them attacked, bullied and probably kicked.

Anything that ever made a healer valuable, like exclusive access to powerful offensive buffs are now baked in passives or secondary effect on generally available hybrid skills instead of requiring a dedicated intention to buff.

Look at expert hunter in the fighter's guild.

Something like half of all skills and gearsets heal in some capacity.

No one queues as tanks because its incredibly dull in everything but hard content. Everyone has easy access to damage mitigation and powerful shields.

Look at brawler in the 2h tree. High AoE damage that creates a powerful damage shield. What?

These kinds of design decisions (made at the ruthless demand of DPS players) create a game where solo builds are the only thing that's fun to play.

Except solo builds can't tank harder group content.

I'll say that I am not surprised at all at the demands that ZOS force other players to tank for them. They're even in this thread.

There are only 2 solutions to this problem. Regardless of either, ESO DPS players should humble themselves and learn how to be kind and patient.

1.) Stop almost all hybridization of skills and gearsets. Create a necessity for support classes. Give healers the tools to empower others, including class pets so they can play solo sometimes.

Go find a healer main in other games and ask them what is the most fun about healing.

For like.. 70% of em its being the exclusive access to powerful buffs and relied upon for survival.

If ZOS removed 99.999% hybrid functionality from skills and gearsets across the board, and modified skills to focus on either
A.) Damage, or,
B.) Mitigation, or
C.) Healing, or
D.) Buffing, or
E.) AoE damage or healing

And any skill or gearset that does any multiple of those, it will never be as effective at any one category as skills that only do one thing.

By forcing people to focus on one of those 5 categories, you create a HUGE market for healers or tanks.

This also has the byproduct of drastically nerfing unkillable high damage procset tanks in PvP because there simply is no way for them to access all that power at once.

Of course all the DPS mains will immediately demean this suggestion because its a widespread nerf and if ZOS takes away all their power, they'll quit and go play some other MMO.

Which is fine with me, enjoy your hour long queues.

2.) Nerf boss damage, remove 1 hit mechanics, and cause threat to be generated passively by heavy armor / shield wearers. Make current taunts not have any threat generation unless wearing heavy armor or a shield.

Then get rid of the role select. Instead, once 4 people queue, the dungeon starts. All bosses now play similar to trash mobs but with unique mechanics.

Then your DPS players get to keep all their power, gain more power, and ESO can now focus on empowering hybrid builds instead of this weird, shaky middle ground we have now.

Xebov

You are mostly right and ill add some more stuff on top. Iam a Tank only player so maybe some ppl wake up after all.

The main reason for fake Tanks is, like you pointed out already, that we have not enought Tanks in queue which leads to long queue times for DDs. What is usually happen in fake Tank discussions, and here as well, is that most DDs want to have the queue problem somehow resolved by involving bad ideas to restrain the already small tank population but noone is interested to solve the issues that lead to this situation.

For filling out role alone we have to own and maintain extra gear and extra skills that help us adapt to various situations and groups for harder content which is already a must have. So for our role only we have to spend extra time, resources and skillpoints just to be adaptive.
Besides that we have to prepare for all content outside of dungeons and trials. Our gear, skills and CP are useless and we have to spend more time, resources, skillpoints, CP to build and maintain DD style builds. Keep in mind that this outside content also includes Solo Arenas that are heavily designed towards DD players. This also puts us in competition for gear with DDs.

The core problem is that many players dont express any understanding for this situation. They often dont even try. Instead of helping experienced Tanks to get changes into the game to make their role more playable in out of dungeon/trials they often act selfish.

To give some examples:

We have a huge DPS gap with players and getting good at dealing alot of damage is not that easy. This leads to many pug DDs barely doing 10-15k, some even less. Its a pain. Still many DDs defend the ugly mechanics that lead to this and want to prevent any change becaus ethey feel superior with the DPS gap. For Tanks tis means that we have to suffer through dungeons.

Another good example is the CP system. Tanks need more CP due to having to effectively dual spec. However classical DD players reaction is to "you can just respec for 3k gold" or "you can make a DD character for this".

Then we have the part where "Tanks are not needed". Sure you can do some of the group content without. But lets be honest, do you think someone says "Hey iam going to make a Tank" when all they see is constant threads telling ppl that they dont need Tanks? Thats a hole you shoveling yourself.

We have a veteran Overland movement where ppl demand a more difficult overland with better rewards, where support classes are constantly ignored and ppl act like we only have DDs. The same is also somewhat true for Solo Arenas that are handles like the pinacle of DD heaven with no changes alowed to make them more accessible.

Besides that its the typical. Players being toxic when i leave groups because they are not capable. This leads me to nowadays barely ever talk to my group at the beginning of a dungeon in case i want to leave so tehy dont have my name.

In group content we have to always know alot and play at peak performance because our death often means a group wipe. But if we die we have to deal with complaints from DDs that die like flies the whole fight. It doesnt even matter how experienced DDs are, they act the same way ppl act in the forums completely ignoring their role and just demanding.

Besides that the developers are not helping either. We have the missmatch in Tank to Healer to DD ratio in Dungeon, normal Trial and vet Trial. That doesnt realy help. No multispec capabilities in game to help us out. No buffs to tanks to help us with non group content. Even compagnions who would have been a good way to solve some of the issues are so weak that they dont help. And of course no support from the loud DD community to get the Devs to change things because they are to occupied crying about their 2K DPS losses.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have closed this thread as there is another thread about this topic already. If you wish to continue this discussion you may do so on the other thread located here.