While at it, can we tone down subassault and blastbones?

divnyi

Everybody knows that both abilities overperform. They pack conveniently delayed burst AoE damage. And I don't want to destroy those skills completely, but -10% damage and everyone will still use them all the same, with the same results.

MrZeDark

Sure but make sure to state only for pvp, k ?

xylena_lazarow

It's not the damage that's the problem in PvP. Shalks ignores the z-axis, the first cast is poorly telegraphed, and the free extra cast has no telegraph at all. Blastbones needs to work consistently, predictably, and not block LoS.

Brrrofski

Sub assault is fine. Quite easy to avoid.

If it's bugged and going through floors like a lot of skills do (sweeps and jabs STILL do this), then yes, it should be fixed.

Blasbones is a very powerful skill but it's obvious that the damage is coming. So unless you get CCed you can prepare.

What makes blasbones very powerful imo, is that fact that it can be targeted.

Play against a good necro who keeps up up pretty much 100% of the time and good luck hitting them.

I'm not sure a skill that does hit hard, is cheap and has a lot of passive stuff that proc from activating it should also be a damage sponge.

I don't think addressing that would hugely impact PvE either

jaws343

Brrrofski wrote: »

Sub assault is fine. Quite easy to avoid.

If it's bugged and going through floors like a lot of skills do (sweeps and jabs STILL do this), then yes, it should be fixed.

Blasbones is a very powerful skill but it's obvious that the damage is coming. So unless you get CCed you can prepare.

What makes blasbones very powerful imo, is that fact that it can be targeted.

Play against a good necro who keeps up up pretty much 100% of the time and good luck hitting them.

I'm not sure a skill that does hit hard, is cheap and has a lot of passive stuff that proc from activating it should also be a damage sponge.

I don't think addressing that would hugely impact PvE either

Blastbones is always and interesting skill to fight against. I was in a 1v1 last night atop Bleakers facing a Necro on my sorc. Kept the gap between us, but the majority of the fight was either me blocking the blastbones or killing the blast bones before it could close the gap. Magcros are almost perfectly designed to shut down sorcs, or at least that has been my experience. Decent ranged damage and burst, decent purge effect, decent healing and damage mitigation. Pretty much shuts down sorc damage and most fights I find in a 1v1 against a magcro end in draws or extremely long drawn out fights that take a turn of luck to end.

xylena_lazarow

Brrrofski wrote: »

Sub assault is fine. Quite easy to avoid.

Maybe in small scale, but the green foot circles on a green warden against green grass in zergs... and the free extra cast still has no telegraph at all, which can be annoying to the warden player themselves too.

divnyi

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It's not the damage that's the problem in PvP.

Ikr, but asking them to do a lot of work on it while they also doing a lot of work on other things would be an overkill.

And I don't want to pretend that damage is not the issue here. It is. I have healthcro with procs and magica blastbones and no damage stats, it is major part of my damage, even with procs.

Like 80% of the 4vs4vs4 premade teamfight deaths have double blastbones/subassaults coupled with some ult in it, with those number being comparable.

xylena_lazarow

divnyi wrote: »

And I don't want to pretend that damage is not the issue here... Like 80% of the 4vs4vs4 premade teamfight deaths have double blastbones/subassaults

Nerfing the damage slightly would not change this, they would be just as obnoxious as ever in PvP, and become worthless in PvE. If you nerf the damage enough to nuke it from the PvP meta, it will be worthless in both game modes. I feel the frustration though, I personally would be fine with outright deleting warden and necro from the game.

Jameson18

I've had my warden and necro shelved from pvp for months now. I prefer to live dangerously. I'll pull the warden back out post update after the heal gets nerfed. Assumedly, i'll get bored again not long after though, as sub assault will still be cheese.

Nothing gets me up in the morning more than those shalk, bb, and db recaps.

NordSwordnBoard

I see the current BB damage as a trade off: a kind of wild, but guided rocket. Sometimes it can be jammed or out-maneuvered, but it's usually going to hit if you know how to aim. I feel like tuning down blastbones damage would warrant tuning up the speed. If they are faster, the LoS issues could also be reduced. Targeting still makes them do funny things sometimes. The sooner that's over with, the better for the necro to send out another and the opponent to not have a confused mini target dummy in the way.

Mag BB needs a more useful secondary effect if they nerfed the damage. The longer chasing thing is bad. A minor or small armor reduction or status effect other than a snare (there's plenty of those) would be great.

xylena_lazarow

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

I see the current BB damage as a trade off: a kind of wild, but guided rocket.

Powerful, random timing on its burst, random chance to block incoming attacks, random chance to fail and do nothing. This is not fun on either side to me, might as well be playing Russian Roulette. It does not need to be a "pet" or have AI, a skeleton-shaped projectile that behaves consistently and does not block LoS would be better in PvP without ruining its PvE damage.

divnyi

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Nerfing the damage slightly would not change this, they would be just as obnoxious as ever in PvP, and become worthless in PvE.

They are gonna be 10% less obnoxious in PvP. And they can buff the damages on pretty much any other skill to keep overall DPS the same for PvE, nobody in PvP would mind a stronger boneyard, for example.

regime211

divnyi wrote: »

Everybody knows that both abilities overperform. They pack conveniently delayed burst AoE damage. And I don't want to destroy those skills completely, but -10% damage and everyone will still use them all the same, with the same results.

No why would you tone down a classes spammable?

divnyi

regime211 wrote: »

No why would you tone down a classes spammable?

Because it's not spammable.

Excelsus

divnyi wrote: »

regime211 wrote: »

No why would you tone down a classes spammable?

Because it's not spammable.

Blastbones is a spammable. Its a direct damage skill used between dots and in most recaps its the 2nd highest dps behind light attacks where other classes would have their spammable. So it is overloaded and mastering necro is directly tied to your blastbones skill and uptime but redistributing its utility would take most of the learning curve out of the class.

Waffennacht

I use my BB as a spammable. Esp in melee range

divnyi

Excelsus wrote: »

Blastbones is a spammable.

It is not a spammable. Spammable is a skill you can repeatedly, well, spam. Fastest you can spam blastbones is every 3rd GCD. It takes 3 seconds to actually hit. Thus, a delayed burst.

Excelsus wrote: »

mastering necro is directly tied to your blastbones skill and uptime

Wow such skill to click a skill every 3 seconds with 2 other skills inbetween

Styxius

Necros have enough nerfs atm don't touch them. Wardens are finally in good place leave them be. PvE opinion atm. BB needs some mech fixes but that's it.

dsalter

Styxius wrote: »

Necros have enough nerfs atm don't touch them. Wardens are finally in good place leave them be. PvE opinion atm. BB needs some mech fixes but that's it.

i wouldnt call removing the need for healers due to stupidly high health based healing a "good place", i as a healer am rarely needed in most VET content anymore because why take a healer when you can take another warden/necro who can not only hit hard but also self heal just as hard as they hit?

WrathOfInnos

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

I see the current BB damage as a trade off: a kind of wild, but guided rocket.

Powerful, random timing on its burst, random chance to block incoming attacks, random chance to fail and do nothing. This is not fun on either side to me, might as well be playing Russian Roulette. It does not need to be a "pet" or have AI, a skeleton-shaped projectile that behaves consistently and does not block LoS would be better in PvP without ruining its PvE damage.

Agree completely. Bad AI makes the skill no fun to use. It could easily be fixed to function just like Warden cliff racer, but with a 3 or 4s delay (I don’t care which, as long as it is consistent, not 3,4,3,8,4,3,3,5). It should just be a “pet” that exists only as an animation, no pathing or contemplating life.

Ryuvain

Pretty sure 90% of my death recap is warden assault cheese. Run around corner, use assault, spam dswing with sub assault, run away spamming arctic blast if they didn't die.

I mean come on, free major breach (which everyone must slot in pvp) on your main burst ability? That or free double cast on your biggest burst skill.

Blastbones doesn't feel as oppressive to me? It shouldn't be targetable but it's not really what kills me at all.

INe_Saninus

Necros are tanky still, but nowhere near as dangerous as Wardens imo.
When they nerfed major defile, they took a lot of steam out of the necro sails.
They are hard to kill though, but... (shrugs)
I don't think Stamcro needs many more adjustments with how unreliable BB is.

We should wait until the dust settles with the Artic Blast nerf before any further adjustments for Wardens.
Are Stamdens bursty? Yes.
Should they be? Probably yes. It's kind of the their thing.
Tanky with a side of "omg where did my hairline go?".

Buff DKs and Templars before going after any of the top toons.
Then see where everything stands.

Fawn4287

Im not saying that blastbones and shalk isn’t op but how has curse not been added to this list? Its a fire and forget thats unblockable and undodgable, hits twice just like shalk and when used alongside a generic spammable like force pulse or ele weapon is actually 1 more ability more than all other combos since c frag is a proc ability like nightblade bow. Most class combos used 1 delayed damage/DOTs and a main spammable, but magsorc has the same plus c frag which can proc on the cast of the next skill, effectively making it that C frag is an extr single target high damage ability that all other classes lack.

Ryuvain

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Im not saying that blastbones and shalk isn’t op but how has curse not been added to this list? Its a fire and forget thats unblockable and undodgable, hits twice just like shalk and when used alongside a generic spammable like force pulse or ele weapon is actually 1 more ability more than all other combos since c frag is a proc ability like nightblade bow. Most class combos used 1 delayed damage/DOTs and a main spammable, but magsorc has the same plus c frag which can proc on the cast of the next skill, effectively making it that C frag is an extr single target high damage ability that all other classes lack.

Curse can be purged can't it? I don't really see it used against me. Also curse I feel is way easier to react to and it's really obvious. Its aoe damage doesn't do much compared to the other two and you can't make your enemy run into their friends. Second free hit is also 6 seconds later compared to shalks 3 seconds.

GRXRG

The only problem here is blastbone, especially in 1vs1s, if it gets casted at you, you are 100% being hit by that, nothing you can do, you cannot roll dodge it, you cannot LoS it, you cannot use terrain because for some reason the skeleton can fly too,all you can do is block it, which is ok-ish unless you have to freaking do it every 3 seconds because the skill cost is basically nothing and can be used off cooldown nonstop, that's the problem, make it possible to dodge like every single magblade skill and necro maybe is fine.

Don't have problems with sub assault, i can sidestep it easily in 1vs1, it's very powerful in bgs and group play when you are stucked with others, but at that point every aoe is strong too.

Lughlongarm

Ryuvain wrote: »

Pretty sure 90% of my death recap is warden assault cheese. Run around corner, use assault, spam dswing with sub assault, run away spamming arctic blast if they didn't die.

I mean come on, free major breach (which everyone must slot in pvp) on your main burst ability? That or free double cast on your biggest burst skill.

Blastbones doesn't feel as oppressive to me? It shouldn't be targetable but it's not really what kills me at all.

Subterranean Assault does not have major breach debuff.

Subterranean and Blastbones got exactly the same damage coefficient.

Ryuvain

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Pretty sure 90% of my death recap is warden assault cheese. Run around corner, use assault, spam dswing with sub assault, run away spamming arctic blast if they didn't die.

I mean come on, free major breach (which everyone must slot in pvp) on your main burst ability? That or free double cast on your biggest burst skill.

Blastbones doesn't feel as oppressive to me? It shouldn't be targetable but it's not really what kills me at all.

Subterranean Assault does not have major breach debuff.

Subterranean and Blastbones got exactly the same damage coefficient.

The mag morph does. Got the base skill name mixed up.

Them having around the same damage seems right. Just blastbones is much easier to see and react to imo. You can see the entire animation and know exactly when it will hit. For some reason it also feels like it hits for less. No idea why.

Might be because necros are so slow that you can maneuver around their burst.

Lughlongarm

Ryuvain wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Pretty sure 90% of my death recap is warden assault cheese. Run around corner, use assault, spam dswing with sub assault, run away spamming arctic blast if they didn't die.

I mean come on, free major breach (which everyone must slot in pvp) on your main burst ability? That or free double cast on your biggest burst skill.

Blastbones doesn't feel as oppressive to me? It shouldn't be targetable but it's not really what kills me at all.

Subterranean Assault does not have major breach debuff.

Subterranean and Blastbones got exactly the same damage coefficient.

The mag morph does. Got the base skill name mixed up.

Them having around the same damage seems right. Just blastbones is much easier to see and react to imo. You can see the entire animation and know exactly when it will hit. For some reason it also feels like it hits for less. No idea why.

Might be because necros are so slow that you can maneuver around their burst.

Ya. the magicka version does, but magicka Wardens probably not spamming dswing.

I actually think blastbones are much more annoying to deal with. Only way to avoid blastbones is block, Subterranean you can also dodge or get out of range. Also, blast bones are defending the necro by being targetable, which is the most annoying thing ever. Subassult is also considered AOE on impact, so skills like shuffle or the medium armor passive reduce the damage from Subassult but not from blastbones(if you are the main target). Blighted Blastbones got the strongest PvP debuff.

Ryuvain

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Pretty sure 90% of my death recap is warden assault cheese. Run around corner, use assault, spam dswing with sub assault, run away spamming arctic blast if they didn't die.

I mean come on, free major breach (which everyone must slot in pvp) on your main burst ability? That or free double cast on your biggest burst skill.

Blastbones doesn't feel as oppressive to me? It shouldn't be targetable but it's not really what kills me at all.

Subterranean Assault does not have major breach debuff.

Subterranean and Blastbones got exactly the same damage coefficient.

The mag morph does. Got the base skill name mixed up.

Them having around the same damage seems right. Just blastbones is much easier to see and react to imo. You can see the entire animation and know exactly when it will hit. For some reason it also feels like it hits for less. No idea why.

Might be because necros are so slow that you can maneuver around their burst.

Ya. the magicka version does, but magicka Wardens probably not spamming dswing.

I actually think blastbones are much more annoying to deal with. Only way to avoid blastbones is block, Subterranean you can also dodge or get out of range. Also, blast bones are defending the necro by being targetable, which is the most annoying thing ever. Subassult is also considered AOE on impact, so skills like shuffle or the medium armor passive reduce the damage from Subassult but not from blastbones(if you are the main target). Blighted Blastbones got the strongest PvP debuff.

Subterranean isn't avoidable with a warden using wings (who doesn't?)
That speed means they will hit it, start dswing, (which is a stun and snare) at full speed. No dodging that.
Just with some tiny circles under them you don't actually know when it's going to hit you. Those circles can also be covered up with all the flashy effects in a fight easily. Add in los/walls and it's unreadable.

On blast bones I also would remove them being targetable, it's not needed.

Pretty sure blast bones should always be aoe damage? It shouldn't be single target at all. Sounds like a bug.

Major defile was also nerfed, so it's not as bad.

Lughlongarm

Ryuvain wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

Pretty sure 90% of my death recap is warden assault cheese. Run around corner, use assault, spam dswing with sub assault, run away spamming arctic blast if they didn't die.

I mean come on, free major breach (which everyone must slot in pvp) on your main burst ability? That or free double cast on your biggest burst skill.

Blastbones doesn't feel as oppressive to me? It shouldn't be targetable but it's not really what kills me at all.

Subterranean Assault does not have major breach debuff.

Subterranean and Blastbones got exactly the same damage coefficient.

The mag morph does. Got the base skill name mixed up.

Them having around the same damage seems right. Just blastbones is much easier to see and react to imo. You can see the entire animation and know exactly when it will hit. For some reason it also feels like it hits for less. No idea why.

Might be because necros are so slow that you can maneuver around their burst.

Ya. the magicka version does, but magicka Wardens probably not spamming dswing.

I actually think blastbones are much more annoying to deal with. Only way to avoid blastbones is block, Subterranean you can also dodge or get out of range. Also, blast bones are defending the necro by being targetable, which is the most annoying thing ever. Subassult is also considered AOE on impact, so skills like shuffle or the medium armor passive reduce the damage from Subassult but not from blastbones(if you are the main target). Blighted Blastbones got the strongest PvP debuff.

Subterranean isn't avoidable with a warden using wings (who doesn't?)
That speed means they will hit it, start dswing, (which is a stun and snare) at full speed. No dodging that.
Just with some tiny circles under them you don't actually know when it's going to hit you. Those circles can also be covered up with all the flashy effects in a fight easily. Add in los/walls and it's unreadable.

On blast bones I also would remove them being targetable, it's not needed.

Pretty sure blast bones should always be aoe damage? It shouldn't be single target at all. Sounds like a bug.

Major defile was also nerfed, so it's not as bad.

Its not about the movement speed, the width of the field is just 7m wide, simple side dodge or flank will do the trick. That's why it works much better on Stamdens, getting real close and combo it with a CC. For Magdens this is much more of a challenge.

Brrrofski

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Sub assault is fine. Quite easy to avoid.

Maybe in small scale, but the green foot circles on a green warden against green grass in zergs... and the free extra cast still has no telegraph at all, which can be annoying to the warden player themselves too.

Well that's a zergling problem and any skill is going to be like that in a zeeg.

It has an obvious telegraph - in 3 seconds it will fire the way the dude is facing. Keep moving around them, don't just stay in front of him.