Make dmg procsets crit again!

kalunte

and increase the requirment to 8k wd/sp to make for the potential buff. so that malacaths wont be an issue (even if it's got nerfed hard yet ^^) and because it would please me

please.

Canned_Apples

No.

WrathOfInnos

Yeah, this is really the only thing that makes sense. Proc sets are weak in PVE, crit is powerful in PVE (especially with optimized groups using Warhorns, Elemental Catalyst, Minor Brittle). Proc sets are strong in PVP, crit is weak in PVP (crit resistances, malacath meta, required to invest more in survivability).

Just tweak the scaling so they end up moderately buffed in PVE and slightly nerfed in PVP. It sounds like this can be done with literally one variable now (Spell/Weapon power scaling coefficient).

Ishtharo

kalunte wrote: »

and increase the requirment to 8k wd/sp to make for the potential buff. so that malacaths wont be an issue (even if it's got nerfed hard yet ^^) and because it would please me

please.

No

Sahidom

No.

xylena_lazarow

I bet the OP wants to one shot gank with Caluurion's.

olsborg

No.

Vaoh

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Yeah, this is really the only thing that makes sense. Proc sets are weak in PVE, crit is powerful in PVE (especially with optimized groups using Warhorns, Elemental Catalyst, Minor Brittle). Proc sets are strong in PVP, crit is weak in PVP (crit resistances, malacath meta, required to invest more in survivability).

Just tweak the scaling so they end up moderately buffed in PVE and slightly nerfed in PVP. It sounds like this can be done with literally one variable now (Spell/Weapon power scaling coefficient).

^^Exactly this.

The only thing I can add is that Battle Spirit could disable proc set critical damage/healing too. Easy different ways to balance these sets if ZOS chooses to balance PvP and PvE correctly instead of treating then as if they’re the same.

NeillMcAttack

I would love if all damage scaled the same, but I can't see them being able to balance it, not yet at least. For now they seem determined to scale it with WD/SD. Let's see how that goes first I guess.

To balance crit damage for PvP. Base crit would have to be removed also. If you have ever tried to make a crit build on anything that wasn't a nightblade, you would realize how much you trade to achieve competitive damage. It has never been worth IMO, removing base crit and allowing procs to crit wouldn't be as bad as people think. Sure you may hit hard, but you will only be as durable as wet tissue paper.

Dagoth_Rac

Proc sets should scale the same way skills scale: on max resources, on max spell/weapon damage, on crit chance, on crit damage, etc., etc. Adding in crit to current one-stat-stacking design is a little better, but both ZOS and the forums need to stop reinventing the wheel here. If procs are gonna scale, have them scale the same way everything else scales. Don't make them scale in some weird way that is unlike any other scaling. It is just gonna lead to balance problems as this new scaling gets poked and prodded and figured out and exploited, and ZOS spend the next 3 to 6 months trying to get it right.

Rebiludo

kalunte wrote: »

and increase the requirment to 8k wd/sp to make for the potential buff. so that malacaths wont be an issue (even if it's got nerfed hard yet ^^) and because it would please me

please.

YES !

Wuuffyy

Yes.

divnyi

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Sure you may hit hard, but you will only be as durable as wet tissue paper.

Not an issue if you burst in 2 GCD.

"Procs crit" introduces an issue with acuity (+75% crit based on stats that doesn't determine weapon damage), and honestly it will be an issue even without it - you can get approx 40% crit without sets and 75% crit damage modifier (taking 20% crit resist into consideration), which is higher than malacath mod.

And lastly, crits will just produce unhealthy RNG with burst damage procs.

Athrys5

No

Rhaegar75

No thanks!!! make them crit and you'll immediately double the already annoying enough population of merciless charge noobs

kookster

even as a ganker who would be massively buffed by this..... NO

WrathOfInnos

divnyi wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Sure you may hit hard, but you will only be as durable as wet tissue paper.

Not an issue if you burst in 2 GCD.

"Procs crit" introduces an issue with acuity (+75% crit based on stats that doesn't determine weapon damage), and honestly it will be an issue even without it - you can get approx 40% crit without sets and 75% crit damage modifier (taking 20% crit resist into consideration), which is higher than malacath mod.

And lastly, crits will just produce unhealthy RNG with burst damage procs.

Ok so 75% crit damage in PVP could be balanced by reducing proc damage by 43%. Then they would deal

0.57 x 1.75 = 1.00

or the current level of damage during an Acuity proc, and 43% less when they don’t crit.


Now in PVE, players have around 140% crit damage and 70% crit chance, which means that even with a 43% reduction in proc damage they would still end up dealing

0.57 x (1 + (0.7 x 1.4)) = 1.128

or a 12.8% increase in proc set DPS for typical PVE builds.

There it is, work is done. Call it version 1 of proc rebalance and adjust in later patches as needed. I suspect the final answer will be closer to 20 or 30% nerf from live to justify enabling crit (not a full 43%), but I’m perfectly happy to see a conservative first guess so nothing is overpowered. It’s still just one variable to change later (global proc scaling coefficient for weapon/spell damage).

divnyi

@WrathOfInnos will it achieve anything? You will still have current level damage of procs in live, which is lower than pure crit stacking.

Ratzkifal

Procs should crit in PvE and not crit in PvP as part of Battle Spirit. That's the only option we have that can make procs actually useful in PvE but not automatically broken in PvP.

The other thing ZOS needs to fix is that not all proc sets should have the same scaling factors. A set that procs only once every 20 seconds and has a cleansable damage over time effect with only 50% uptime is not the same as a burst proc set or one with 100% uptime that also heals for the damage dealt etc.
The current scaling factors are based on the previous values as if those were already balanced well before. But they weren't balanced before and so weak proc sets get the nerf hammer too when only some proc sets were the problem.

WrathOfInnos

divnyi wrote: »

@WrathOfInnos will it achieve anything? You will still have current level damage of procs in live, which is lower than pure crit stacking.

@divnyi Sure it will. To hit that level of proc damage from one set, they’d need to use Acuity instead of a 2nd proc set. For anyone that chooses to ignore crit and just stack proc sets the burst damage would be way lower. And in PVE proc sets would be a little closer to meta sets. 3 positive effects from one simple change.

remosito

crit is dominant enough. pushing it even more GETS a biiig NONONONONO!

remosito

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Procs should crit in PvE and not crit in PvP as part of Battle Spirit. That's the only option we have that can make procs actually useful in PvE but not automatically broken in PvP.

only way?

boost procs. for all. not just the elite like this currently proposed scaling (nerf ceiling, lift floor my buttocks). then make battle spirit nerf all proc damage and healing.

done. without crits.

Septimus_Magna

I would say make proc sets crit but only in PVE so procs dont get overtuned in PVP but keep their strength in PVE.

Rhaegar75

what procs do in PvE is irrelevant to me...make them crit...make them treble crit...I don't care: you are playing AI at the end of the day.

However I'm dead bored of fighting in a PvP environment and having to deal with characters that rely on a set to do their work...take a high health warden with 3 procs as an example....all they have to do is spam their uber healing whilst the procs eat you away. Not fun

ExistingRug61

A side thing about making procs crit - it would even out their strength between classes a bit more. For instance some classes have weapon/spell damage passives, straight up damage done passives, or elemental damage done passives. All of which buff procs for those classes. Other classes have damage passives that work via crits, so these classes are at a disadvantage at leveraging procs at the moment. Procs being able to crit would even out their usefulness a bit better between classes, albeit in slightly different ways.

oscarovegren

You would need to nerf NB to make this balanced for PvP

divnyi

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

And in PVE proc sets would be a little closer to meta sets. 3 positive effects from one simple change.

Doubt. If you buff proc sets to the level where it is close to DPS numbers of meta sets, it will also mean you can stack crit and do the same in PvP, but for 2-3 GCD burst window.

ExistingRug61

divnyi wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

And in PVE proc sets would be a little closer to meta sets. 3 positive effects from one simple change.

Doubt. If you buff proc sets to the level where it is close to DPS numbers of meta sets, it will also mean you can stack crit and do the same in PvP, but for 2-3 GCD burst window.

But stacking crit in pvp is nowhere near as effective:
1) crit resistance.
2) lack of, or much more difficulty in obtaining (requiring other build sacrifice), a lot of extra crit damage buffs: force, brittle, elemental succession [edit: meant catalyst] etc
3) lower availability of crit - major sorceryprophecy and savagery aren’t always a given in pvp. And the minor versions depend on class or group, so are much less available to a lot of players.

So in pvp to begin with you will see less crits, and even when crits do occur they are for significantly less damage than in pve.

ExistingRug61

oscarovegren wrote: »

You would need to nerf NB to make this balanced for PvP

May I ask why?

I mean sure, nightblade has crit passives so it would benefit from procs being able to crit.

But it is currently one of the classes that synergises worst with procs (along with DK and Templar).
And the recent time in Cyrodiil show that stamblade at least is subjectively better in a no proc environment when built without procs - so I'm not sure procs being a bit more effective on them would actually be a problem, outside of the allowing the possibility for a lucky consecutive crit hit proc gank.

Procs are already stronger on
Warden (advanced species, easy access to minor berserk, piercing cold mean something like at least +10% damage for procs or more than +20% if they are magic/frost)
Necro (bonus pen, +15% damage for DoT procs)
Sorc (extra WD/SD from expert mage is basically a straight percentage buff to procs now, plus amplitude, and +5% damage for physical/shock procs)

Currently nightblade only has a conditional pen passive (albeit a strong value) to help it use procs, likewise templar only gets a small boost from balanced warrior for stamplar and minor sorcery for magplar. Procs being able to crit would elevate procs on these classes to closer to the same proc effectiveness as the above three as at least then their crit damage passives would actually be relevant for procs. (Doesn't hep DK though...which currently only gets a small boost to a very specific subset of procs from world in ruin and I guess can use seething fury stacks and EF)

I mean, you're right it would buff procs for NB, and that may be a problem, but I'm not convinced that would be a sure thing, and it may actually be fine.

divnyi

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

2) lack of, or much more difficulty in obtaining (requiring other build sacrifice), a lot of extra crit damage buffs: force, brittle, elemental succession etc

What succession have to do with crit?

Yes, you sacrifice toughness. I hear that. Now, think 2 steps ahead:
Step 1: 35k HP+ and big damage is no longer a thing. People either stay at this toughness and do small damage, or (majority) go down to be able to kill ppl.
Step 2: With toughness lowered over the board (at below 30k), assassins are back in the meta.

Assassins don't care about toughness. They care about kill in 2-3 GCD to remove any possible reaction.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

3) lower availability of crit - major sorcery and savagery aren’t always a given in pvp. And the minor versions depend on class or group, so are much less available to a lot of players.

Major brutality is. Proc damage is best scaled on stamina anyway. Camo hunter and channeled acceleration is just 2 skill slots. All the crit stacking is just a correct class and race and mundus. You can stack weapon damage on top. You can stack simmering frenzy on top.

If that doesn't scare you, it means you never played assassins. I remove 25k HP players on 35m range in 2 CGD already, without ulti. With changes you propose, I bet I will be able to push for 30k without ulti. That means I will be able to oneshot anything but tanks that deal no damage.

ExistingRug61

divnyi wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

2) lack of, or much more difficulty in obtaining (requiring other build sacrifice), a lot of extra crit damage buffs: force, brittle, elemental succession etc

What succession have to do with crit?

Yes, you sacrifice toughness. I hear that. Now, thing 2 steps ahead:
Step 1: 35k HP+ and big damage is no longer a thing. People either stay at this toughness and do small damage, or (majority) go down to be able to kill ppl.
Step 2: With toughness lowered over the board (at below 30k), assassins are back in the meta.

Assassins don't care about toughness. They care about kill in 2-3 GCD to remove any possible reaction.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

3) lower availability of crit - major sorcery and savagery aren’t always a given in pvp. And the minor versions depend on class or group, so are much less available to a lot of players.

Major brutality is. Proc damage is best scaled on stamina anyway. Camo hunter and channeled acceleration is just 2 skill slots. All the crit stacking is just a correct class and race and mundus. You can stack weapon damage on top. You can stack simmering frenzy on top.

If that doesn't scare you, it means you never played assassins. I remove 25k HP players on 35m range in 2 CGD already, without ulti. With changes you propose, I bet I will be able to push for 30k without ulti. That means I will be able to oneshot anything but tanks that deal no damage.

Sorry I meant catalyst, not succession, had a brain fade. (updated my previous post)

But even with that sort of build, your still lack major force, brittle and catalyst, so my point that potential crit damage will be lower than PvE. Further mitigated by crit resistance.

Plus if you choose to run damage proc sets these compete with crit chance sources from sets, so your crit chance is still going to be less than a standard PvE build. I mean sure you could still get a sequence of lucky crits to go along with your guaranteed crit from cloak, but there's only a small chance of that. Or you could use Acuity like you are, but then thats giving up at least one set choice which can't be a proc.

Furthermore - those build choices to get that crit damage do come with sacrifices, its not like there is no trade off. Getting crit damage from race, class and mundus are all places where you could alternatively get WD/SD or other damage done passives, all of which would increase your proc damage directly. So to get more damage from potential proc crits means you have sacrificed the procs base damage already. And yes I get that the crit damage potentially scales significantly better, especially if using something like acuity and/or frenzy, but again those a specialised build choices that have an opportunity cost.

Finally, I'm not advocating that procs simply be allowed to crit at their current damage levels , rather as stated by WrathOfInnos - if procs could crit then this would need to be accompanied with a general reduction in there base damage as well. I'm not exactly sure what this reduction would need to be - enough so that the average proc damage is less in PvP maybe with potential for slightly higher spikes in full on crit builds, but so that they actually do more average damage in PvE than they currently do. Not so that they get buffed so that they are PvE meta strong - as you say that will likely mean they will be too strong in PvP. But at least so they are slightly closer in PvE, without being Op in PvP.

And, no that doesn't scare me. I'm not particularly concerned that a pure focused gank build can push for things like that by going all in. Ganking burst builds deserve their place in PvP just like any other build. I don't mind dying to them when they pull it off, and yes I have and do play that style. They have other weaknesses. Plus, your video shows that that sort of burst can already be achieved, and I don't think proc's critting (provided the base reduction is about right) will increase the potential damage of such a burst build too much. But it will mean you have to build for it more, like you have.