Could not agree more with this

sticx45_ESO

Kristofer very succinctly laid out the major issues I have with this patch, couldn't agree more here. I just recently returned to the game for the no-proc Cyro and already thinking of leaving if the proc meta returns this badly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy5yV27vScI

sticx45_ESO

P.S. Proc's should be icing on the cake, not the entire cake.

AgentUriel

If the patch notes don't change really then I guess I'll just try and enjoy PvE a bit more than before. Do trials and vet content. I don't want to be setup for failure just because I didn't run the right "build" full of procs and weapon damage. So boring!

sticx45_ESO

meh... I'd rather go play another game where I enjoy the PVE more myself. I'm here for the pvp.

Anonx31st

I disagree and made sure to dislike the video.

ResidentContrarian

Anonx31st wrote: »

I disagree and made sure to dislike the video.

Beat me to it...At this rate I won't be the ResidentContrarian anymore!

Mr_Wolfe

Anonx31st wrote: »

I disagree and made sure to dislike the video.

Same. Most of the proc sets he showed are dodgeable and have 1-2 second delays before they hit. Easy enough to avoid if you know what you're doing.

Galarthor

Really makes you wonder who designs this stuff. I mean we constantly get completely overtuned sets that don't even require any testing to know they are completely OP. Why does the guy who job it is to know sets and how they work not see this?

I don't need to be an expert in designing parachutes to figure out that removing 80% of the chutes surface area to increase speed might be a bad idea in practice.

YandereGirlfriend

I'm would like to see proc damage sets reigned in via Battle Spirit but I grow exceedingly weary of these entirely context-free click-baity videos.

Precisely who is simply standing there waiting to eat a Selene's, Red Mountain, AND a Defiler proc? You would need to literally be AFK or else lagging out of the game for that to happen.

Any competent PvP player can easily Break-Free from a setup Hard-CC and immediately Dodge-Roll before any of those sets have time to land. And then the proc set wearer is de facto no longer wearing any sets (since they are all on cooldown) and are wide open to being aggressively combo'd.

Yes, there are problems with current proc set scaling but the specific setup in this video does a poor job in actually conveying them.

Gilvoth

Anonx31st wrote: »

I disagree and made sure to dislike the video.

well said.
quoted for truth.
the reality of what is happening with proc sets has nothing to do with what is so openly spoken of here on the forums.
proc sets have never been what is being presented as fact.

Galarthor wrote: »

Really makes you wonder who designs this stuff. I mean we constantly get completely overtuned sets

that just isnt true.

MashmalloMan

Gilvoth wrote: »

Anonx31st wrote: »

I disagree and made sure to dislike the video.

well said.
quoted for truth.
the reality of what is happening with proc sets has nothing to do with what is so openly spoken of here on the forums.
proc sets have never been what is being presented as fact.

Mmm... For pvp, most people are right and have reasonable proof to back it up. This is overtuned. For pve, very nice and much needed buff. There is a balance that can be struck between the 2.

For starters. Get rid of Linear power scaling, introduce diminishing returns beyond the threshold amount.

Adjust the threshold accordingly to that change.

Consider a battlespirit debuff of -10 to 30% since damage is already reduced by -50% and pve proc sets (besides Relequen) are absolutely garbage, it's worth balancing them seperately and that is the only way.

doesurmindglow

Kristofer is a highly accomplished PVPer with plenty of clips to back it up.

I'm sure he's perfectly aware of how to counterplay these sets, and probably better than most of you at actually performing that counterplay. He's also right about this: even with effective counterplay, the scaling as currently being tested on PTS is accomplishing the stated intent of making procs meaningful choices rather than "free damage" or "the default way of building a character."

I think diminishing returns is a logical course; or at least a damage cap similar to proc sets in the past that were clearly overtuned like Sload's.

MashmalloMan

doesurmindglow wrote: »

Kristofer is a highly accomplished PVPer with plenty of clips to back it up.

I'm sure he's perfectly aware of how to counterplay these sets, and probably better than most of you at actually performing that counterplay. He's also right about this: even with effective counterplay, the scaling as currently being tested on PTS is accomplishing the stated intent of making procs meaningful choices rather than "free damage" or "the default way of building a character."

I think diminishing returns is a logical course; or at least a damage cap similar to proc sets in the past that were clearly overtuned like Sload's.

Yeah it's kinda funny, the guy has years of experience shown on the internet for anyone who's interested. It's much easier to get behind someones point of view with proof of experience and a reasonable arguement to back up their claims, rather than the few forum nay-sayers replying with "I disagree" that continue to provide not an ounce of a valid arguement at all to oppose that standpoint.

I think a hard cap is a bit unatural since nothing in the game has that at this point besides Oblivion damage, with diminishing returns, it would accomplish the intended effect all the same without making you feel like you're completely wasting investment with a hard cap.

Plus, deminishing returns also solves some pve vs pvp issues for proc sets since in theory, it would buff them in pve more than pvp..

It's kinda rare, downright stupid (unless you plan to be a ganking glass cannon) that you'd invest every single build opportunity into straight weapon/spell damage in pvp. In pvp, you spread out your investments a little bit more evenly, dabble in sustain, defense, utility, penetration, etc.

For pve, it's actually rare to not build for 100% damage focus, albeit crit is the strongest pve stat, either way, you're most likely going to have higher weapon/spell damage in a pve group composition due to all the optimized stacked buffs.

This is why a hard cap is unnecessary and over punishes 1 side of the coin (pve), that could be adjusted otherwise through something like battlespirit if diminshing returns is not good enough.

Pattceht

Just wondering if any of you guys in favour of these proccs have played a bg ever? It's complete *** fest. Everyone wearing the same proccs stupid dot damage from a light attack. I'm one of the guys in favour of the way cyro is right now - you actually know where the damage is coming from and it's breath of fresh air.

If you guys want proccs why not just go click on a randomiser that tells you if you win or lose? Oh you got lucky and dodges that procc but unfortunately that other guy just procced his proccs and now your dead.

Abyssmol

Pattceht wrote: »

Just wondering if any of you guys in favour of these proccs have played a bg ever? It's complete *** fest. Everyone wearing the same proccs stupid dot damage from a light attack. I'm one of the guys in favour of the way cyro is right now - you actually know where the damage is coming from and it's breath of fresh air.

If you guys want proccs why not just go click on a randomiser that tells you if you win or lose? Oh you got lucky and dodges that procc but unfortunately that other guy just procced his proccs and now your dead.

I'm doing a survey to see which class and specs the players are that have this opinion play. Do you happen to play a stamina character? And to be more specific do you play a stamNB. I'm curious to know. Ty

YandereGirlfriend

Nobody is doubting that he's an elite player but he's also presenting a simplistic, straw man framing in this video in order to generate outrage and clicks - which, coincidentally also happens to make him ad revenue as well as advance his own individual interest in maintaining the current non-proc ruleset.

At any point during the video he could have simply added, "OR you could Dodge-Roll once and mitigate this entire combo..." but that might make people reconsider the need for some of their pitchforks.

But about the build: 16k Stamina, 1400 sustain, 700 Penetration, All-Divines... and this is in CP where you already get heaps of free stats (and extra tooltip scaling...) simply for existing? That is not a viable build, especially in non-CP or if fighting against multiple opponents. Porting that build over to non-CP would leave you with: <15k Stamina, 1250 sustain, 0 Penetration, and 0 Critical Resistance - which is a recipe for overwhelming disaster.

Further, look at the target that he selected for the video: a presumably Light Armor magSorc (at least they had Lightning Form up...). Their individual stats and build are a complete black box to the viewer (why not show us their stats and CP?) but it's hard to not be aware of the fact that a Light Armor wearer will be taking between 5-7% additional damage from Martial Damage sources, which is very convenient for the purposes of this video and its attempt to portray the worn combination as being as OP as possible. Why not show a clip against a Heavy Armor wearer (which would have up to 27% more mitigation against two of the sets)? Or against a player blocking? I think that we already know the answer to that.

We also aren't even aware if the damage is being further juiced by using clips with Continuous Attack or the Minor Brutality buff activated from his poison. Perhaps they are not activated during the clips at all, but the fact that we don't actually know makes the entire video feel deceptive and as though he is trying to push an agenda (though, to be fair, we all are).

The latter factors will stack a ton of conditional Weapon Damage on top of the build (e.g. an extra 20%, which is how he's arriving at the quoted 9k Weapon Damage) but they can hardly be assumed to be active every time that the various proc sets are activating. Take the Minor Brutality poison as an easy example - that has a 20% chance to proc on a Light Attack or weapon ability - between the 20% proc chance and the 50% best-case uptime, there's a huge asterisk next to whether or not that buff will actually be up when you need it to be, especially when you're advertising, "40k damage on a single light attack" as if you'll be doing that kind of damage against every target every time (which, spoiler alert, you won't).

All of which is to say that he's still fundamentally right about proc set damage - it does need to be reigned in for PvP. His proposed solution, however, would absolutely dumpster proc sets for PvE and he either has not thought about or does not care about the negative ramifications of that idea.

Implement a damage reduction via Battle Spirit and solve the problem in PvP without obviating proc sets for PvE.

It's also possible to make this video with a transparent presentation of ALL of the relevant information. And doing so would go a long way toward dispelling the otherwise persistent feeling that you are being manipulated as the viewer.

doesurmindglow

MashmalloMan wrote: »

For pve, it's actually rare to not build for 100% damage focus, albeit crit is the strongest pve stat, either way, you're most likely going to have higher weapon/spell damage in a pve group composition due to all the optimized stacked buffs.

This is why a hard cap is unnecessary and over punishes 1 side of the coin (pve), that could be adjusted otherwise through something like battlespirit if diminshing returns is not good enough.

I too prefer a diminishing returns approach to a hard cap; but I have no idea the relative difficulty of implementing either. I suspect hard caps are less server load and calculations, which probably has to be a consideration at least in PVP. That said it's totally possible they could implement a hard cap on procs in PVP while using a diminishing returns system in PVE, or something, though I know they tend to like to avoid having two radically different systems in the game modes.

Regardless of whatever solution is devised for this I'm a little wary of layering system on top of system to solve the imbalances created by the previous system. A lot of this could also just be solved by essentially going back to the damage that was present prior to the proc buff that created all this controversy: that is, when they decided to increase proc chances to 100% but did little to nothing about the new damage that resulted from that increase.

Faded

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Nobody is doubting that he's an elite player but he's also presenting a simplistic, straw man framing in this video in order to generate outrage and clicks - which, coincidentally also happens to make him ad revenue as well as advance his own individual interest in maintaining the current non-proc ruleset.

Riiiiight. All about that tenth of a cent in ad revenue. Nothing to see here.

I almost hope it goes live the way it is. They'll spend the next two years nerfing everything but the gear to try to get it under control, and every time they add a new mythic they'll nerf your gear too. Be sure to blame it all on PVP, for the memes.

Sandman929

Faded wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Nobody is doubting that he's an elite player but he's also presenting a simplistic, straw man framing in this video in order to generate outrage and clicks - which, coincidentally also happens to make him ad revenue as well as advance his own individual interest in maintaining the current non-proc ruleset.

Riiiiight. All about that tenth of a cent in ad revenue. Nothing to see here.

I almost hope it goes live the way it is. They'll spend the next two years nerfing everything but the gear to try to get it under control, and every time they add a new mythic they'll nerf your gear too. Be sure to blame it all on PVP, for the memes.

Need a wild applause reaction

YandereGirlfriend

Faded wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Nobody is doubting that he's an elite player but he's also presenting a simplistic, straw man framing in this video in order to generate outrage and clicks - which, coincidentally also happens to make him ad revenue as well as advance his own individual interest in maintaining the current non-proc ruleset.

Riiiiight. All about that tenth of a cent in ad revenue. Nothing to see here.

I almost hope it goes live the way it is. They'll spend the next two years nerfing everything but the gear to try to get it under control, and every time they add a new mythic they'll nerf your gear too. Be sure to blame it all on PVP, for the memes.

Way to intentionally miss the point.

It's almost as if already you're aware that it's a slanted video and that it's not a winning argument to try to defend its presentation.

I guess you also missed the part where I said that I agreed with him about the problem - though not his particular solution.

But hey, never miss an opportunity to score cheap points against your perceived enemies, I guess.

doesurmindglow

Faded wrote: »

I almost hope it goes live the way it is. They'll spend the next two years nerfing everything but the gear to try to get it under control, and every time they add a new mythic they'll nerf your gear too. Be sure to blame it all on PVP, for the memes.

Yeah, I don't know why we're getting all these weird complaints that making the sets balanced for PVP would somehow come at great and unbearable cost to PVE. Like I'm fully aware and sympathetic to the argument that something that's imbalanced in PVP might not be in PVE, but a lot of these sets are way out of line in PVE also, and people who have tested it are AFK killing bosses on PTS. That isn't balanced, either.

I've tested a lot of this myself and these are not simply outrage-for-clicks videos. This problem is real and exists, and if it goes live there will be a need for huge future adjustments.

Further, it's not really like the multitude of proc sets actually have much realistic application in endgame PVE in the first place. The damage from Alkosh and Relequen are potentially significant, I guess, but it's honestly not going to hurt anyone in PVE if the scaling is adjusted to either cap out at, or otherwise diminish to where is is effectively limited to, "the current damage on the live server," which honestly if that were proposed for the mere handful of proc sets with widescale application in PVE, I doubt Kristofer or anyone else would really complain.

At issue is how to balance the vast majority of proc sets -- the sets that are rarely used at all in PVE, but persistently overpowered in PVP to the point we're requiring this whole change. If there was a way to make them stronger in a PVE context but weaker in a PVP context, I'm definitely for it; but making them weaker in a PVE context in order to make them balanced in a PVP context isn't actually the end of the world, especially if by "weaker" we mean "at least not any stronger than they are now."

I don't think Kristofer's alleged proposal for nerfing all the sets into oblivion is a great idea (not actually his proposal -- he wants them "adjusted," which probably is well short of that). I think ZOS is probably on the right track with the idea of stat-originated scaling. But the numbers do need to be adjusted, the damage needs to be capped, or some form of diminishing returns probably needs to exist.

Everyone knows this, deep down, likely even those applauding the ridiculous tooltips currently on exhibit from the PTS; because at the very least the implementation is not aligned with its stated intentions, which are for the damage, healing, and other advantages that come from proc sets to represent a meaningful choice and one that allows more purely stat-based set-ups to also be viable.

Foto1

I'm not a supporter of adding anything to battle spirit, it's not intuitive, not everyone knows about its existence). I am also not a supporter of diminishing returns or severely limiting damage caps. since this is a nerf for pve. instead, Zos could introduce a new armor trait specifically for pvp (similar to impenetrable) - "reduces incoming and outgoing damage from players by 5%"

etchedpixels

Tapering the upwards scaling seems sensible - maybe also tapering the downward scaling too so that non appropriate proc sets are not totally useless in odd PvE builds and for newbies but not worth it for PvP.

Negate also needs to negate proc sets and some of the skills that reflect things need to reflect some of the proc stuff where it makes sense. That alone would add some real entertainment to the proc situation.

Tommy_The_Gun

The "something is wrong" alert red warning light has lighten up for me once I realised that some dmg dealing proc sets (like Caluurion) actually has higher dmg tooltip than burst dmg skills - like Grim Focus. Seriously, people on PTS are getting better dmg from a set rather than a skill - and that is on same build.

I really don't want to have class or skills nerfed because some class was using proc sets and killing people left & right so ZOS nerfs class....

Other wired thing is that healing proc sets don't come even remotely close to what dmg dealing sets do. If those values were similar then at least we could have some counter (your sets hits me for X, but my sets heal me for X)... Not that sets should be THIS impactful to begin with.

Can we just stay with no-proc Cyro as we have now ? Maybe add some non-proc sets (that give permanent buff, but have condition check) to the list so it would have more build variety.

relentless_turnip

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Can we just stay with no-proc Cyro as we have now ? Maybe add some non-proc sets (that give permanent buff, but have condition check) to the list so it would have more build variety.

I would be totally on board with this tbh. I would extend it to all PvP content until they figure out what they are going to do with free damage/healing sets.

doesurmindglow

I actually like that solution too. It's also way easier for them to theoretically implement. And it would leave the sets alone in PVE where they are supposedly needed at the overtuned damage levels, I guess.