On duoing Vaults of Madness with Companions

DarcyMardin

@FrancisCrawford and I frequently duo dungeons, but we’d love to be able to do this with more of the DLC and vet dungeons. We were hoping the new Companions would allow us to do this. We are both primarily solo players, except when we duo. Neither of us uses the random group finder very often.

Last night we took Bastion and Mirri, both level 20 with purple gear, into VoM to see how they’d do. We can complete that dungeon easily on normal and we’ve also succeeded in duoing it a few times in vet. (The final boss on vet always gives us a hard time). Neither one of us is any sort of elite player (obviously).

We first tried normal, which is always easy for us. I was on a maxed-out magden with Bastian specced as a tank. My husband played a maxed out magsorc with Mirri specced as a DD. We both carried some heals, as we always do when duoing. Having already had some experience playing with companions, we knew they’d need some help staying alive, so we kept an eye on their health bars and shot them heals when necessary, if possible.

There were no problems on normal; in fact, it was so easy that we switched to vet after killing Grothdar, and reset the dungeon. Both trash and bosses were dying rapidly on normal. (Although, without any add-ons on the PTS, it was hard to tell how much help we were really getting from the companions). I had slotted Bastian’s version of bone shield, and we were definitely getting a regular synergies from that. I can’t really say how well Bastian was performing as a tank since we were mowing everything down so fast, and there were pets also contributing to the damage.

On vet, most of the dungeon was only marginally harder. Grothdar’s AOE wiped out Bastian, though, and Mirri only survived with @FrancisCrawford spending a ridiculous amount of magicka healing her. I was doing some healing, too. We had several more deaths on bosses, but no wipes until the final boss. Killing him took 3 or 4 tries, with Bastian always dying fast when the adds spawned. Mirri lasted longer. And of course, they couldn’t do the mechanics of entering or exited the inner circle depending on which spell he cast. But we finished, with Mirri still standing and Bastian taking his regular dirt nap.

Our verdict? Well, maxed-out companions probably make duoing easy normal/vet dungeons a bit easier for a couple of casual non-elite types. Without a buff for them that increases both their DPS and their mitigation (and preferably reduces their skill casting cool downs), I can’t see them being too useful for DLC dungeons, especially in vet mode.

remosito

pretty much my impression too. anything you can do without them. at best you are wondering if they even did help. at worst you just waste resources, skill slots and cooldowns on them.

anything you cant do without them. they're just a hindrance and make you fail harder.

at least I havent run into stuff I cant do solo where a campanion made enough of a difference for me to succeed.

VaranisArano

Thanks for breaking down how the Companions performed in the various fights! It's good to know that Companions can perform reasonably well in a capable group on normal difficulty with support from their group much like a new, low level, or inexperienced player would get.

It's unfortunate that Bastian performs so poorly as a tank. My most basic requirements for a tank are that they hold boss aggro with a taunt and stay alive. A dead tank holds zero aggro.

FrancisCrawford

As the guy lucky enough to be married to (and game with) @DarcyMardin, I'll add a few nuances to her accurate tale.

• I made a point of speccing Mirri with non-melee skills only. The hope was that this would help with her survivability. I think it did.
• Theoretically, the Circle of Protection equivalent reduces damage by 40% from VoM mobs. I did have the sense that my incoming damage was pretty light.
• We had about three incidents with companions getting stuck or otherwise moving weirdly. Not a big deal.
• Mirri consistently stayed behind me. Indeed, I almost never saw here doing a fight; I just healed based on her health bar. (Omnidirectional sorcerer pet heal.)

I was reminded of one thing: ESO does have a little problem with bosses chasing companions. If you do the City of Ash 1 quest and take the healer companion, the Warden of the Shrine may leave his platform to chase her down, and the fight can wind up resetting. Similarly, Grothdarr chased Mirri up the walkway; while he didn't reset, the cold fire to discourage us from tanding there was up, and we would up choosing to reset ourselves.

(The Ancient Watcher also chased Mirri down the stairs, but that didn't hurt anything.)

Gundug

I feel that if companions are going to frequently make themselves a liability by dying, they should be given a short timer to auto resurrect instead of either forcing the player to make themself vulnerable to resurrect them or simply leave them dead for the fight. Even combat pets are nowhere near as punishing in that if they die, there is a short cast time to resummon them, while the player may still move about to avoid danger. Resurrecting takes a long time, is easily interrupted, and forces the player to eat damage to see it through.

BalticBlues

Perhaps ZOS can create a CAUTION SKILL for companions?
This skill could make a companion RUN/HIDE behind the player.
For example, if companion health is low.

Perhaps ZOS can create a REZ SKILL for companions?
This skill could make a companion REZ another dead companion or a dead player.
This could be nice for 2 players playing with 2 companions.

btw, smart companions probably would do all this just by themselves...
Where is the AI when you need it?

Chilly-McFreeze

Thanks for the insights. Pretty much meets my experience with companions as well.

remosito wrote: »

pretty much my impression too. anything you can do without them. at best you are wondering if they even did help. at worst you just waste resources, skill slots and cooldowns on them.

anything you cant do without them. they're just a hindrance and make you fail harder.

at least I havent run into stuff I cant do solo where a campanion made enough of a difference for me to succeed.

I think they are nothing more than roleplay stuff atm. If they are indeed intended to serve as stepping stone or backup for inexperienced players or those who don't whish ot socialise to get through group content, they should be treated similar to sorc pets: unkillable or at least with a longer cc'd/ knocked out state if they drop to 0 hp, but then heal up and "rezz" themselves.

But as of right now, they won't let you step up and do stuff you couldn't do anyway.

DarcyMardin wrote: »

(Although, without any add-ons on the PTS, it was hard to tell how much help we were really getting from the companions).

Most of the up-to-date addons still work on PTS. You can always check "allow outdated addons" and try. Some addons also get updated during PTS to fit the newest build.

Wolfchild07

Yeah I won't be getting it. I know they will maybe buff them, but I doubt it will be enough. They're supposed to help us with difficult content, as the game is getting bigger and there are less people doing world bosses throughout all the zones, and harrowstorms, depending on your timezone. What's the point of them if they're just going to die, or not do enough healing/damage?

ZOS generally doesn't make changes before live, the PTS is mostly for bug squashing. Expect nerfed CP's and terrible companions.

cyberjanet

Congratulations on getting them to level 20 is all I can say.

Mysticman

VaranisArano wrote: »

Thanks for breaking down how the Companions performed in the various fights! It's good to know that Companions can perform reasonably well in a capable group on normal difficulty with support from their group much like a new, low level, or inexperienced player would get.

It's unfortunate that Bastian performs so poorly as a tank. My most basic requirements for a tank are that they hold boss aggro with a taunt and stay alive. A dead tank holds zero aggro.

Hack The Minotaur has had success using Bastian as a tank. https://youtube.com/watch?v=PWyodKbcsrk

jcasini222ub17_ESO

Have you tried going in as a WW? I think it would have to be solo. The transformation should allow for (if things haven’t changed) the two wolves and companion all to be active.

Mysticman

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

As the guy lucky enough to be married to (and game with) @DarcyMardin, I'll add a few nuances to her accurate tale.

• I made a point of speccing Mirri with non-melee skills only. The hope was that this would help with her survivability. I think it did.
• Theoretically, the Circle of Protection equivalent reduces damage by 40% from VoM mobs. I did have the sense that my incoming damage was pretty light.
• We had about three incidents with companions getting stuck or otherwise moving weirdly. Not a big deal.
• Mirri consistently stayed behind me. Indeed, I almost never saw here doing a fight; I just healed based on her health bar. (Omnidirectional sorcerer pet heal.)

I was reminded of one thing: ESO does have a little problem with bosses chasing companions. If you do the City of Ash 1 quest and take the healer companion, the Warden of the Shrine may leave his platform to chase her down, and the fight can wind up resetting. Similarly, Grothdarr chased Mirri up the walkway; while he didn't reset, the cold fire to discourage us from tanding there was up, and we would up choosing to reset ourselves.

(The Ancient Watcher also chased Mirri down the stairs, but that didn't hurt anything.)

You can recall companions to your side the same you can recall pets by holding the Y key and right clicking. Holding the Y key and left clicking will send them to attack a certain target. Heavy attacking a target will do the same thing.

OutLaw_Nynx

Question

Can companions revive you?

Mysticman

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

Question

Can companions revive you?

No, but any player can res your companion.

Tannus15

omg, i just realised the true purpose of companions!

Vastarie's Tutelage
2 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
3 items: Adds 1206 Maximum Health
4 items: Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
5 items: Adds 129 Magicka Recovery, Adds 129 Stamina Recovery, When you resurrect an ally, you and your ally gain 258 Weapon and Spell Damage and 10% cost reduction to non-Ultimate abilities for 10 seconds.

It's a buff to res sets!

FrancisCrawford

cyberjanet wrote: »

Congratulations on getting them to level 20 is all I can say.

The PTS has a cheat for that.

SgtNuttzmeg

Honestly companions shouldn't be replacing players. Leave them at a level where they can be effectively utilized in delves, public dungeons, overland and normal content. Veteran dungeons have already had their skill level reduced enough. You should need players for them and trials. It's an MMO not a new edition of Skyrim.

FrancisCrawford

As noted above, @DarcyMardin and I fought the first few bosses twice each (once on normal and once on vet). I think the pick-a-random-target mechanics of the first two bosses picked an actual player each time, and never a companion.

I'm sure of this in the case of the first boss; of coure, that was only two trials total. But I think it was the case for the second (harvester) boss as well.

If somebody wants to make more carefully sure than we did, the harvester would actually be a good choice to test that on -- she's near the front of the dungeon, she's easy to survive indefinitely, she incapicitates opponents often, etc. You do need to get past the first boss however, which is easy in solo only for players who are better than I am.

DarcyMardin

cyberjanet wrote: »

Congratulations on getting them to level 20 is all I can say.

We’d both made pre-leveled characters on the PTS who came with level 20 companions, or at least a tool to make the companions level up in everything. This provides their purple armor and weapons too, which was useful, since in all the time we were playing, only 1 companion armor piece dropped in VoM, and it was a blue medium armor piece that neither of them would have used.

Note: I failed to mention that we had them both in 7 pieces of heavy armor and that the armor trait we used most often was the “quickening” one that reduces their long skill cool downs. Next time I try Bastian as a tank, I’ll probably use the traits that increase his health and decrease his damage taken.

I do NOT looking forward to leveling these characters from zero when the chapter drops, nor to the search for good gear for them. I am a grand master crafter and I can’t make gear for them?? Whose idea was *that*??

DarcyMardin

Mysticman wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

<snip>

It's unfortunate that Bastian performs so poorly as a tank. My most basic requirements for a tank are that they hold boss aggro with a taunt and stay alive. A dead tank holds zero aggro.

Hack The Minotaur has had success using Bastian as a tank. https://youtube.com/watch?v=PWyodKbcsrk

Thanks...yeah, I actually watched that vid last night after doing the dungeon. Good stuff! I love his videos. But he had basically the same result as we did on the vet version of FG1 (dead tank). I do agree with Hack that if ZOS boosts the companions’ blocking and mitigation a bit that they, once leveled, geared, and fully skilled, have potential as tanks in easy dungeons.

stefj68

i try them, as as is, i won't be using them on lives

only viable scenario i found is TANK role for them
and HEAL role for me

i never play heal, cause i HATE it...

i play better TANK better then they will ever DO
i do 60-90k as a dps, why would i play TANK and put them as DPS? for 5-10k?

PALE order as a SOLO will always be better then them as HEALER

they should do at least 25k as dpser
they should at least get out of AOE's
tank should block more efficiently

i was really hoping i could put some nice support SET that boost groups survability -> hiti, spell power cure, olorime, chokethorn, symphony of blades... but nope! i won't be reusing my banked sets

and i won't be banking / storing 1339 companion set items...

THEY just ...