Turn all CP Passives into Slottable Stars

NobleX35

Basic premise of the post is to turn all CP passives into slottable stars, and increase the number of slots to 8-10 per constellation.

Here's the more detailed explanation.

CP 2.0 brought about many of the same issues that plagued CP 1.0 when it was first introduced. An unrealistically high vertical progression cap, the lack of diminishing returns, and the incredible power difference between low and high CP players. With that said, CP 2.0 has brought about some interesting changes and shows promise for a better overall progression system. The dev's stated that one of their primary goals with CP 2.0 was to have the system start off as a vertical progression system that later turns into a horizontal progression system. In theory, this sounds amazing; however, in execution, it was poorly implemented for the stated reasons above.

One of the primary issues that has been plaguing CP 2.0 is the fact that the vertical progression component is simply too steep. The player is simply required to acquire too many CP points to fill out all the passives and have four fully maxed slottable stars. The dev's have tried to alleviate this problem a few different ways. First by cutting the number of stages for passive stars, then by reducing the experience requirements to achieve the next CP point. Now they are trying to cut the number of stages for passive stars yet again. These are simply band-aid fixes that don't adequately address the issue, and continue to frustrate players as investing in CP passives continues to seem less and less impactful.

Instead of continuing to cut passives and find alternative ways to regain control over the vertical progression system, why not do the following:

• Reinstate all stages that were cut for passives
• Convert all passives into slottable stars
• Increase the max number of slottable stars to 8-10 per tree

The most appealing concept of CP 2.0 was the idea of slottable stars that provide the player with a variety of choices they can use to optimize or fill out their build. Currently, the biggest issue with this part of the concept is that the player has too many selections and not enough slots. Certain stars are simply better than others, which results in only the "best" stars ever getting used. A direct comparison would be class ability slots. Each player has 10 class ability slots, and while certain skills are often required to be on the bar, the player is given enough slots to allow for "flex" skills. Skills that are used to fill the holes in a player's build and help make each build more unique. Increasing the number of slots would potentially allow for flex stars that could help fill the holes in a players build and bring a new layer of build diversity and theory-crafting.

Additionally, this concept would help the dev's regain control over the vertical progression side of the system because the max CP requirement would be soft capped based on the stars the player slots. If the max number of slots was 8 per tree and the player selected stars that cost 50 points each to max out, then they would need a maximum of 1200 CP to complete their build. The max CP requirement would still vary based on the stars a player selects and their associated costs; however, the lower and upper limits can be much more easily controlled. Any CP points spent on stars beyond the ones the player has slotted would roll in the horizontal progression side of the system the dev's were trying to strive for.

TheDarkRuler

Yeah, sure. Turn the already wasted CP tree in an even larger cripple. I was hyped in 2.0 and grinded some CP but after nerfing the tree again i dont even feel like the investment is worth it anymore. The tree has to have vertical progression, otherwise its pointless as a whole!

WhyMustItBe

Nerfing the CP overhaul they literally just released by 50% makes it a largely wasted mechanic good for little more than role play to me. Sort of like the vampire changes.

Making it so you could only get those bordeline useless buffs by slotting them would be like roleplaying a marathon runner with pencils jammed in their kneecaps.

NobleX35

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

Nerfing the CP overhaul they literally just released by 50% makes it a largely wasted mechanic good for little more than role play to me. Sort of like the vampire changes.

Making it so you could only get those bordeline useless buffs by slotting them would be like roleplaying a marathon runner with pencils jammed in their kneecaps.

Did you read the whole post?

NobleX35 wrote: »

Instead of continuing to cut passives and find alternative ways to regain control over the vertical progression system, why not do the following:

• Reinstate all stages that were cut for passives
• Convert all passives into slottable stars
• Increase the max number of slottable stars to 8-10 per tree

WhyMustItBe

NobleX35 wrote: »

Did you read the whole post?

I did. I just don't believe it would solve the problem.

The main issue I see with this suggestion is that both defensive and offensive stats are located in the blue tree, and to get both benefits would require a lot more than 8-10 active stars. So, you would end up having to spec into either offense OR defense, even worse than it is already. Only you could no longer overcome it by simply gaining more CP, and gaining CP would become largely pointless as no matter how many you had, you would be stuck with 8-10 stars you could actually use.

Effectively, it would be like lowering the CP cap from 3600 to something like 1600, and it would still end up being a massive nerf over just having 810 CP in the 1.0 system, just with less flexibility.

Further, this doesn't address the whole reason they are making these lurching changes just weeks after releasing a massively overhauled system, which is a PR problem in and of itself. Their whole stated objective was to "encourage more horizontal progression" making hybric builds and off-meta builds more viable.

By limiting the use of CP to a fixed number of stars you artificially cap the diversity of builds making horizontal progression and hybrid setups more difficult if not impossible to pull off.

NobleX35

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

Did you read the whole post?

I did. I just don't believe it would solve the problem.

The main issue I see with this suggestion is that both defensive and offensive stats are located in the blue tree, and to get both benefits would require a lot more than 8-10 active stars. So, you would end up having to spec into either offense OR defense, even worse than it is already. Only you could no longer overcome it by simply gaining more CP, and gaining CP would become largely pointless as no matter how many you had, you would be stuck with 8-10 stars you could actually use.

This counter argument makes absolutely no sense. You only have 4 slots right now, which means you are very limited to the CP stars you can select. You can literally only spec for the role you intend to play, and even within that role you are limited to the stars you can choose.

If you want to go dps, then you pick all 3 damage % modifiers and one of the damage % crit modifiers. If you want to spec as a tank, then you pick all mitigation % modifiers. Same goes for healing because these stars are by far the best for the specific role and you dont have any flex spots to slot other stars.

None of this takes into account that the player was never supposed to be able to fully spec into two different roles. With the idea I proposed, the player would actually gain some additional build diversity than what is currently possible right now. For example, if you wanted to go DPS, then you could pick the 3 damage % modifiers, both damage % crit modifiers, and the penetration star. Assuming you only had 8 slots, this would allow you to have 2 additional flex spots for either more damage or for something else such as a defensive or healing star. If you had 10 slots, then you would have even more choices to expand your build.

Finally, do you not understand how horizontal progression works? This was a stated goal by Brian Wheeler during the reveal event of CP 2.0. You gain CP points that you directly invest into the power of your character (vertical progression). At some point you would gain all the power you possibly could and then anything spent beyond that would be for convenience (horizontal progression). Even now this is how the system works. The main issue, and the reason why they keep cutting passives, is that the vertical progression part of the system is simply to steep. Its unrealistic to expect players to have to get 2000+ CP to fully maximize the vertical progression part of the system.

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

Effectively, it would be like lowering the CP cap from 3600 to something like 1600, and it would still end up being a massive nerf over just having 810 CP in the 1.0 system, just with less flexibility.

[Snip]. When they first introduced CP 2.0 the player was required to get over 3,000 CP points to obtain all the passives and have 4 slottable stars to complete the vertical progression part of the system. 3,000+ CP was obviously an unrealistic expectation, so they cut the number of stages on a variety of passives effectively reducing the cap to just over 2,000+ CP. Now they are doing it again by once again cutting more passives, and effectively reducing the cap to around 1500+ CP.

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

Further, this doesn't address the whole reason they are making these lurching changes just weeks after releasing a massively overhauled system, which is a PR problem in and of itself. Their whole stated objective was to "encourage more horizontal progression" making hybric builds and off-meta builds more viable.

By limiting the use of CP to a fixed number of stars you artificially cap the diversity of builds making horizontal progression and hybrid setups more difficult if not impossible to pull off.

[Snip]

Yes, that is the point of the idea. To limit the number of CP you can spend to increase your vertical progression. By lowering the vertical progression requirement, you speed up the rate at which the player can begin their horizontal progression. Once they have all their slotted stars maxed out, they will start investing into stars they do not have slotted (horizontal progression), which will make it easier for them to swap out stars at a faster and more convenient rate when they want to play a different build/spec. They won’t have to spend the coins to respec their CP allocation because they will simply be able to swap out one star for another that they have already maxed out.

With that said, I will agree on one point, which was that they are cutting passives again because of a PR problem, because they realized that it is an unrealistic expectation to place on the player base (and particularly new players) to have to get to 2,0000+ CP before their character is finally fully optimized and leveled. Since I’m already around 1,500 CP this change will just basically bump me to the new cap, but like I said before it doesn’t adequately address the real issue.

[Edited for rude comments]

MrZeDark

I strongly disagree with this.

Your suggestion is actually deepening a nerf, that is already coming based on PTS changes.

Why would I want to waste an active for 500 mag? 500 Health? 2% healing done?

I'm lvl 1390 right now, and this upcoming patch completely removed my desire to lvl anymore, because I get all the passives now and some points to put into actives I will never use.

Though your article is typed well and goes into good detail technically, nice clothes on a bad date - doesn't make the date any better

NobleX35

MrZeDark wrote: »

I strongly disagree with this.

Your suggestion is actually deepening a nerf, that is already coming based on PTS changes.

Why would I want to waste an active for 500 mag? 500 Health? 2% healing done?

I'm lvl 1390 right now, and this upcoming patch completely removed my desire to lvl anymore, because I get all the passives now and some points to put into actives I will never use.

Though your article is typed well and goes into good detail technically, nice clothes on a bad date - doesn't make the date any better

Lol you’re the second person to come in here stating the same thing...did you actually read the proposal? If so, how did you miss this:

NobleX35 wrote: »

Instead of continuing to cut passives and find alternative ways to regain control over the vertical progression system, why not do the following:

• Reinstate all stages that were cut for passives
• Convert all passives into slottable stars
• Increase the max number of slottable stars to 8-10 per tree

Literally the first bullet point is to reinstate any cut stages...so the passive stars that would get converted would not be 500 health or 2% healing done. It would be 1k+ health and up to 5% healing done.

Now some stars are redundant and could probably simply be added to their respective counter parts as new stages. This way you could still invest the same bonus up to the same level but in only 1 star. This would apply to things like health, stam, mag, etc.

MrZeDark

NobleX35 wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

I strongly disagree with this.

Your suggestion is actually deepening a nerf, that is already coming based on PTS changes.

Why would I want to waste an active for 500 mag? 500 Health? 2% healing done?

I'm lvl 1390 right now, and this upcoming patch completely removed my desire to lvl anymore, because I get all the passives now and some points to put into actives I will never use.

Though your article is typed well and goes into good detail technically, nice clothes on a bad date - doesn't make the date any better

Lol you’re the second person to come in here stating the same thing...did you actually read the proposal? If so, how did you miss this:

NobleX35 wrote: »

Instead of continuing to cut passives and find alternative ways to regain control over the vertical progression system, why not do the following:

• Reinstate all stages that were cut for passives
• Convert all passives into slottable stars
• Increase the max number of slottable stars to 8-10 per tree

Literally the first bullet point is to reinstate any cut stages...so the passive stars that would get converted would not be 500 health or 2% healing done. It would be 1k+ health and up to 5% healing done.

I didn't miss it, I'm calling it as it is currently - it still doesn't change my opinion. 1000 extra mag as an active isn't better than 10% more DD, or 10% more AOE and DOT.

Its a waste.

If stages are reintroduced through lvl growth as it was in 810 - then sure leveling becomes more valuable. However that leaves far less passives and any passives left, would still be wasted as a slotable compared to the current ones that exist.

NobleX35

MrZeDark wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

I strongly disagree with this.

Your suggestion is actually deepening a nerf, that is already coming based on PTS changes.

Why would I want to waste an active for 500 mag? 500 Health? 2% healing done?

I'm lvl 1390 right now, and this upcoming patch completely removed my desire to lvl anymore, because I get all the passives now and some points to put into actives I will never use.

Though your article is typed well and goes into good detail technically, nice clothes on a bad date - doesn't make the date any better

Lol you’re the second person to come in here stating the same thing...did you actually read the proposal? If so, how did you miss this:

NobleX35 wrote: »

Instead of continuing to cut passives and find alternative ways to regain control over the vertical progression system, why not do the following:

• Reinstate all stages that were cut for passives
• Convert all passives into slottable stars
• Increase the max number of slottable stars to 8-10 per tree

Literally the first bullet point is to reinstate any cut stages...so the passive stars that would get converted would not be 500 health or 2% healing done. It would be 1k+ health and up to 5% healing done.

I didn't miss it, I'm calling it as it is currently - it still doesn't change my opinion. 1000 extra mag as an active isn't better than 10% more DD, or 10% more AOE and DOT.

Its a waste.

If stages are reintroduced through lvl growth as it was in 810 - then sure leveling becomes more valuable. However that leaves far less passives and any passives left, would still be wasted as a slotable compared to the current ones that exist.

[Snip]

NobleX35 wrote: »

and increase the number of slots to 8-10 per constellation.

You wouldnt have to choose between 1k mag and 10% damage, because you would now have enough slots to slot both. Additional slots would allow for flex slots just like with your ability bars. You could go with the obvious choices up front, then select a few flex stars to round out your build.

If you don’t like the idea, thats fine it doesn’t bother me; but at the very least you should evaluate it honestly and not post counter arguments that don’t adequately reflect what I was suggesting.

[Edited for bait]

MrZeDark

NobleX35 wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

I strongly disagree with this.

Your suggestion is actually deepening a nerf, that is already coming based on PTS changes.

Why would I want to waste an active for 500 mag? 500 Health? 2% healing done?

I'm lvl 1390 right now, and this upcoming patch completely removed my desire to lvl anymore, because I get all the passives now and some points to put into actives I will never use.

Though your article is typed well and goes into good detail technically, nice clothes on a bad date - doesn't make the date any better

Lol you’re the second person to come in here stating the same thing...did you actually read the proposal? If so, how did you miss this:

NobleX35 wrote: »

Instead of continuing to cut passives and find alternative ways to regain control over the vertical progression system, why not do the following:

• Reinstate all stages that were cut for passives
• Convert all passives into slottable stars
• Increase the max number of slottable stars to 8-10 per tree

Literally the first bullet point is to reinstate any cut stages...so the passive stars that would get converted would not be 500 health or 2% healing done. It would be 1k+ health and up to 5% healing done.

I didn't miss it, I'm calling it as it is currently - it still doesn't change my opinion. 1000 extra mag as an active isn't better than 10% more DD, or 10% more AOE and DOT.

Its a waste.

If stages are reintroduced through lvl growth as it was in 810 - then sure leveling becomes more valuable. However that leaves far less passives and any passives left, would still be wasted as a slotable compared to the current ones that exist.

[Snip]

NobleX35 wrote: »

and increase the number of slots to 8-10 per constellation.

You wouldnt have to choose between 1k mag and 10% damage, because you would now have enough slots to slot both. Additional slots would allow for flex slots just like with your ability bars. You could go with the obvious choices up front, then select a few flex stars to round out your build.

If you don’t like the idea, thats fine it doesn’t bother me; but at the very least you should evaluate it honestly and not post counter arguments that don’t adequately reflect what I was suggesting.

I don't like it. I think it's great you came up with a concept for CP development - like I said it's put together well. I like reading new ideas, though ZOS pays people for ideas and forces us to test things we don't like - to only identify bugs and balance.

Moving to 8-10 slots won't work, as the idea of 4 was to mitigate server checks. This was thoroughly explained in the live video, and within documentation regarding CP 2.0. Not to say they couldn't move that direction, as servers become more scalable with upgrades. Just right now it would be counter intuitive for them, to support your concept. Which really, your entire idea is only rewarding with 8-10 active slots. Again - that would be a solution absolutely. It's just not practical based on what they've discussed with all their Server issues and the directions they are trying to take to mitigate server load to process DMG/DMG MIT/Healing Bonusses and Debuffs.

So yes, I called out stats that don't reflect in the structure you described. However despite how good of an idea it is, it is not practical based on what we know of what ZOS has said, and truly for the sake of balance - it would take another year of development to create appropriate balance within your concept.

Right now ZOS is very certain; again on what they have said, intent on keep 4 Actives and growing out each category with more depth of CP's to create more utility options. However as it is clear right now, they intend to NERF instead of balance and spread growth accordingly. Which is a shame.

Personally, had they implemented your concept as CP 2.0 first it would have been a remarkable expanding system that drove people to want to progress again. Just in the now, it's not viable.

the1andonlyskwex

I love this idea, but I would also add an additional change. I think the CP trees need to be made deeper (or more linear, with longer "branches"), so that there are a lot more stars that have prerequisite stars in order to be accessed. That way, having more CP grants people access to stars that would otherwise be inaccessible. The challenge for ZOS would then be to balance the hard to reach stars in such a way that they're useful (probably only in specific builds) without being overpowered.

An example (with nonsense numbers that probably aren't balanced), would be to have an easy to reach star that increases all damage by 4%, a somewhat harder to reach star that increases direct damage by 6%, a hard to reach star that increases single target direct damage by 8%, and a very hard to reach star that increases all damage by 8% while also increasing all ability costs by 10%. (Note: this particular example only really works if there are enough good stars on other branches of the tree to discourage someone from just equipping everything in the branch simultaneously, or if there are restrictions on the number of stars that can be equipped from a single branch.)

NobleX35

MrZeDark wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

NobleX35 wrote: »

MrZeDark wrote: »

I strongly disagree with this.

Your suggestion is actually deepening a nerf, that is already coming based on PTS changes.

Why would I want to waste an active for 500 mag? 500 Health? 2% healing done?

I'm lvl 1390 right now, and this upcoming patch completely removed my desire to lvl anymore, because I get all the passives now and some points to put into actives I will never use.

Though your article is typed well and goes into good detail technically, nice clothes on a bad date - doesn't make the date any better

Lol you’re the second person to come in here stating the same thing...did you actually read the proposal? If so, how did you miss this:

NobleX35 wrote: »

Instead of continuing to cut passives and find alternative ways to regain control over the vertical progression system, why not do the following:

• Reinstate all stages that were cut for passives
• Convert all passives into slottable stars
• Increase the max number of slottable stars to 8-10 per tree

Literally the first bullet point is to reinstate any cut stages...so the passive stars that would get converted would not be 500 health or 2% healing done. It would be 1k+ health and up to 5% healing done.

I didn't miss it, I'm calling it as it is currently - it still doesn't change my opinion. 1000 extra mag as an active isn't better than 10% more DD, or 10% more AOE and DOT.

Its a waste.

If stages are reintroduced through lvl growth as it was in 810 - then sure leveling becomes more valuable. However that leaves far less passives and any passives left, would still be wasted as a slotable compared to the current ones that exist.

[Snip]

NobleX35 wrote: »

and increase the number of slots to 8-10 per constellation.

You wouldnt have to choose between 1k mag and 10% damage, because you would now have enough slots to slot both. Additional slots would allow for flex slots just like with your ability bars. You could go with the obvious choices up front, then select a few flex stars to round out your build.

If you don’t like the idea, thats fine it doesn’t bother me; but at the very least you should evaluate it honestly and not post counter arguments that don’t adequately reflect what I was suggesting.

I don't like it. I think it's great you came up with a concept for CP development - like I said it's put together well. I like reading new ideas, though ZOS pays people for ideas and forces us to test things we don't like - to only identify bugs and balance.

Moving to 8-10 slots won't work, as the idea of 4 was to mitigate server checks. This was thoroughly explained in the live video, and within documentation regarding CP 2.0. Not to say they couldn't move that direction, as servers become more scalable with upgrades. Just right now it would be counter intuitive for them, to support your concept. Which really, your entire idea is only rewarding with 8-10 active slots. Again - that would be a solution absolutely. It's just not practical based on what they've discussed with all their Server issues and the directions they are trying to take to mitigate server load to process DMG/DMG MIT/Healing Bonusses and Debuffs.

So yes, I called out stats that don't reflect in the structure you described. However despite how good of an idea it is, it is not practical based on what we know of what ZOS has said, and truly for the sake of balance - it would take another year of development to create appropriate balance within your concept.

Right now ZOS is very certain; again on what they have said, intent on keep 4 Actives and growing out each category with more depth of CP's to create more utility options. However as it is clear right now, they intend to NERF instead of balance and spread growth accordingly. Which is a shame.

Personally, had they implemented your concept as CP 2.0 first it would have been a remarkable expanding system that drove people to want to progress again. Just in the now, it's not viable.

This counter argument makes even less sense than the ones you provided before. How would adding slots and taking away passives increase server calculations? The player would have less overall effects tied to their character because they would be limited to the number of slots available. Instead of having to calculate 4 slottable effects + 10-15 passives per constellation, the server would would only need to calculate up to 8-10 effects (based on how many slots are available).

I agree that many of the changes made within the CP system were done in an effort to reduce overall server calculations. These changes mostly involved converting percent based modifiers to flat values, such as 30 wd/sd per stage, or reducing the cost of sprint by x amount. Obviously they still kept some % percent modifiers, but for the most part they shifted to a lot of flat values. The idea I proposed does not impact these particular changes in anyway.

MrZeDark

As an added-

I think largely most of us are just frustrated period about the impending nerf, so it's hard to see the forest through the trees. So though you did articulate well - it leaves too much room for us to immediately assume the worst in your idea.

So apologies to any frustrations for you, I may have evoked.

Shantu

Personally I dislike the whole "slottable" concept. Sure, it cuts down on server calculations and puts a lid on vertical progression, but it also creates a significant amount of meaningless horizontal "digression" that accumulates simply because players have nothing else to do with their CP. I'm sure the devs would like the idea of horizontal progression to have some real value, but for the most part, it doesn't. All the current passives on the 50% chopping block just further serve to antagonize the issue.

Vaoh

They need to bring in a huge amount of Blue slottable CP stars which let us specialize into certain playstyles.

Damage type CP stars: 30% more Frost Damage crit chance + 30% less Fire Damage crit chance.

Class CP stars: Winter’s Revenge is twice as large and lasts twice as long.

Weapon CP stars: Lacerate costs 50% less and can stack with itself.

No more of 10% crit damage, 10% single damage, etc. This stuff is the same as CP1.0. Would be nice to pull the big damage we do rn but with varied builds.....

MrZeDark

Vaoh wrote: »

They need to bring in a huge amount of Blue slottable CP stars which let us specialize into certain playstyles.

Damage type CP stars: 30% more Frost Damage crit chance + 30% less Fire Damage crit chance.

Class CP stars: Winter’s Revenge is twice as large and lasts twice as long.

Weapon CP stars: Lacerate costs 50% less and can stack with itself.

No more of 10% crit damage, 10% single damage, etc. This stuff is the same as CP1.0. Would be nice to pull the big damage we do rn but with varied builds.....

Agreed -- I honestly wish we saw a trade off on the nerf, like adding a purple tree to both mag and stam. Where we could offset the 50% cut by adding % modifiers to elemental effects (maybe with a trade off for less dmg for another element but *shrugs*) -- just a way to balance loss, and still have reasons to progress.

ThorianB

I got a better idea. How about we:

1. Scrap the entire CP system as it is terrible anyway in any form and only freaks people out when they realize they have to gain more than 1000 levels in this game.
2. Add a real leveling system past level 50 where levels actually feel meaningful and useful and we actually feel like we gained something for work put in.
3. Have classes and skill lines that are actually unique and encourage different builds rather than than every single class nearly being a carbon copy of each other.
4. Put every new player at the OG start instead of having 47 different options so that the story lines make sense for new players.
5. Starting with Summerset increase difficulty of every chapter and following DLC more than the last by a noticeable amount. For example Summerset and Murkmire might have normal mobs that hit for 10% more damage and have 10% more HP. Elsweyr story might be 15% more damage and HP. New chapters would have mobs that have special attacks that are meaningful. These areas would have min recommended levels. Summerset might be min level 30 recommended( you could go there at a low level still.
6. Make companions actually useful.

One stone flock of birds.

MrZeDark

ThorianB wrote: »

I got a better idea. How about we:

1. Scrap the entire CP system as it is terrible anyway in any form and only freaks people out when they realize they have to gain more than 1000 levels in this game.
2. Add a real leveling system past level 50 where levels actually feel meaningful and useful and we actually feel like we gained something for work put in.
3. Have classes and skill lines that are actually unique and encourage different builds rather than than every single class nearly being a carbon copy of each other.
4. Put every new player at the OG start instead of having 47 different options so that the story lines make sense for new players.
5. Starting with Summerset increase difficulty of every chapter and following DLC more than the last by a noticeable amount. For example Summerset and Murkmire might have normal mobs that hit for 10% more damage and have 10% more HP. Elsweyr story might be 15% more damage and HP. New chapters would have mobs that have special attacks that are meaningful. These areas would have min recommended levels. Summerset might be min level 30 recommended( you could go there at a low level still.
6. Make companions actually useful.

One stone flock of birds.

There is no problem with having a CP system, all successful MMO's utilize an alternate advancement system. Which takes care of #2, as levels are meaningful if you are rewarded by adding more combat utility and attributes for doing so.

The rest of them have nothing to do with CP's but are all valid arguments.

Joy_Division

How is the proposal in the original post changing anything though?

Right now I slot my 4 "actives" and fill out all the possible passives I can and already have enough of the 8-10 that I would be allowed to slot. The main difference would be that I actually get to choose the 8-10 that I want, which would have the effect of me being stronger (and thus raising the "ceiling" and furthering the gap between low CP players at the "floor").

Gaining new CP at this point would be pointless to me as I already have maxed out the best stars in the tree and wouldn't have any effect on my character going forward.

Though this system would resolve the main issue with the Green Tree of pointlessly switching around non-combat oriented stars that is just tedious.

ZOS is trying to walk a very very fine line between making CP potent enough that max level players still feel a sense of accomplishment acquiring them, yet not make them so potent to create this huge disparity between low and high CP players. Good luck! These goals are diametrically opposed to each other.

Whenever they try to reconcile this discrepancy, it's going to just create frustrations. For all the high sounding reasoning laid out, all ZOS is doing is just slapping a big fat nerf to players who have devoted hours and hours and hours to getting the very CP that ZOS dangled in front of them as a reward for devoting their leisure time to the game. That not only just stinks on principal, it's a slap in the face to those players who have these CP stars already maxed out that are still trying to progress in trials or end-game.

MrZeDark

Joy_Division wrote: »

How is the proposal in the original post changing anything though?

Right now I slot my 4 "actives" and fill out all the possible passives I can and already have enough of the 8-10 that I would be allowed to slot. The main difference would be that I actually get to choose the 8-10 that I want, which would have the effect of me being stronger (and thus raising the "ceiling" and furthering the gap between low CP players at the "floor").

Gaining new CP at this point would be pointless to me as I already have maxed out the best stars in the tree and wouldn't have any effect on my character going forward.

Though this system would resolve the main issue with the Green Tree of pointlessly switching around non-combat oriented stars that is just tedious.

ZOS is trying to walk a very very fine line between making CP potent enough that max level players still feel a sense of accomplishment acquiring them, yet not make them so potent to create this huge disparity between low and high CP players. Good luck! These goals are diametrically opposed to each other.

Whenever they try to reconcile this discrepancy, it's going to just create frustrations. For all the high sounding reasoning laid out, all ZOS is doing is just slapping a big fat nerf to players who have devoted hours and hours and hours to getting the very CP that ZOS dangled in front of them as a reward for devoting their leisure time to the game. That not only just stinks on principal, it's a slap in the face to those players who have these CP stars already maxed out that are still trying to progress in trials or end-game.

Agreed!!!

Low CP to High CP is a difference of how much time you commit - those of use that are high and growing every day, play consistently, we chase content, and flourish in PvP and End Game. Low CP that think leveling is a chore, don't realize that they aren't rdy for some of the end game or CP based PvP anyways. Nerfing the higher lvl's does not elevate the lower levels, it just nerfs people who are comitted.

MacCait

I really don't like this idea.

The idea of cp was always to grow stronger... it just seems strange that straight after a CP event where everyone is grinding CP, they then nerf almost all CP by 50%, even though that CP had already been rduced once from the old system.

But making it all slottable with just a handful of choices seems just as pointless to me.

For me, it all equates to stripping fun out of the game.

NobleX35

Joy_Division wrote: »

How is the proposal in the original post changing anything though?

Right now I slot my 4 "actives" and fill out all the possible passives I can and already have enough of the 8-10 that I would be allowed to slot. The main difference would be that I actually get to choose the 8-10 that I want, which would have the effect of me being stronger (and thus raising the "ceiling" and furthering the gap between low CP players at the "floor").

It creates a better and more controllable vertical progression cap. For example:

NobleX35 wrote: »

If the max number of slots was 8 per tree and the player selected stars that cost 50 points each to max out, then they would need a maximum of 1200 CP to complete their build. The max CP requirement would still vary based on the stars a player selects and their associated costs; however, the lower and upper limits can be much more easily controlled. Any CP points spent on stars beyond the ones the player has slotted would roll in the horizontal progression side of the system the dev's were trying to strive for.

Basically, it significantly reduces the vertical progression side of the system to a more reasonable level and gives the player more control over how to build and spec their character with stars that are will be more impactful than what the new passives will provide. Instead of having to get to 1500+ or 2000+ CP, or w/e the limit will be after they keep cutting stages, the average base would provably be around 1200 with my proposal (8 slots x 50 cp (average) = 400 CP x 3 constellations = 1200. Again this is just an average because different CP stars have different numbers of stages with varying costs per stage.

You do raise a concern I pointed out in my original post as well concerning the power gap between low and high CP players. The simple solution for this that I did not originally cover because I wanted to focus on the primary topic is to simply reinstitute diminishing returns. Early stages provide a greater portion of the star’s bonus than later stages do. For example, the first stage for the weapon/spell damage passive could give 50 points, the next stage could give 40, etc.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Gaining new CP at this point would be pointless to me as I already have maxed out the best stars in the tree and wouldn't have any effect on my character going forward.

Though this system would resolve the main issue with the Green Tree of pointlessly switching around non-combat oriented stars that is just tedious.

ZOS is trying to walk a very very fine line between making CP potent enough that max level players still feel a sense of accomplishment acquiring them, yet not make them so potent to create this huge disparity between low and high CP players. Good luck! These goals are diametrically opposed to each other.

Whenever they try to reconcile this discrepancy, it's going to just create frustrations. For all the high sounding reasoning laid out, all ZOS is doing is just slapping a big fat nerf to players who have devoted hours and hours and hours to getting the very CP that ZOS dangled in front of them as a reward for devoting their leisure time to the game. That not only just stinks on principal, it's a slap in the face to those players who have these CP stars already maxed out that are still trying to progress in trials or end-game.

Thats kind of always been the issue though, and the dev’s specifically stated in their initial preview of CP 2.0 that they wanted to have the CP system start out as a vertical progression system and then transform into a horizontal progression system, which it technically does right now; however, the biggest issue is that the vertical progression side of the system is simply too steep. Which has been causing a variety of issues, and is why they are nerf the passives yet again.

Gundug

It took me a while to make sense of the initial post, which seemed to work against the premise of reducing the amount of vertical progression with increased slotted stars, but the idea is a plausible direction, while retaining much of what is already there. Having said that, I’m not overly in favor of it.

If I was the CP system designer, I would have simply made 4 damage oriented, 4 mitigation and healing, and 4 sustain and resource active stars per constellation. Keeping the premise of four slottable stars per constellation, that would mean players who invest fully into damage over all else would only slot the 12 total damage oriented stars at the cost of mitigation, healing and sustain. All other stars would be passives that have no impact on combat, but potentially significant impact on other gameplay functions, like harvesting, treasure looting, lockpicking, and the like.

Instead, we have what amounts in my mind to a mess of far too many active stars, and many of which are far too microscopic in their focus. The red tree has a whole section devoted just to boosting play while CC immune. The healing tree breaks down healing by AOE, single target HOT and a number of other subsections of healing. These, and many more trees are examples of unnecessarily overcomplicating a system in favor of forcing “choice” upon players. Yet, the impact from applying points into each of these stars feels minimal, at least to me.

Choice is an illusion to lull us into thinking we can “play our own way”, when it becomes quickly evident that there are only a few efficient choices available, and all else exists only for the sake of variety. I feel a clear, simple system like I have outlined above would have been far better. Easy to understand, robust, and meaningful.

Amottica

I am a new player so I do not have enough experience with this whole CP thing to formulate my own opinion. However, from reading the forums and the disapproval of having to micromanage the crafting tree slotables I really doubt players would be interested in making it so the other trees have the micromanagement and to a greater extent.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

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