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On the New Achievement and Title Names for Rockgrove
Kumononeko
Soul Shriven
Greetings, everyone. On this thread, I would like to discuss the naming of Achievements and Titles available from completing various Achievements in the new Trial, Rockgrove. I will be more focused on the Trifecta and its close relative, Trifecta + Side Achievement Titles.
First of all, for reference, the currently available Trial Titles are:
Sunspire:
Now, if we look into the Achievement names and the Titles granted by their corresponding Achievements, there are some glaring naming issues in terms of consistency when compared with the past two Trials.
The Normal Completed, Veteran Completed and HM Completed in all three Trials follows a similar trend. We start as a helper (Defender)/ participant (Ascendant) and move on to be much more than just an outsider (a Saint of the place, a Will of the place, a Warrior of the tribe). Finally, HM Completed, with the exception of Sunspire, grants you Titles to show how strong you are for being able to defeat enemies at their full strength with Shield of the North, a Shield whose strength is unmatched by an army of Sea Giants and a ancient Vampire Lord and Xalvakka's Bane, a slayer who defeat even the mighty Xalvakka in her own domain.
However, the new Trifecta and its close cousin, Trifecta + Side Achievements which I will now refer to as Complete, follow a much different path from its predecessors.
Achievement Naming
First, the name of the achievements themselves. We have Godslayer of Sunspire and Stainless Siege-breaker. Both of the previous ones focus on how strong you are to dominate your enemies instead of simply defeating them whereas in Rockgrove, the Achievement name focuses on saving the tribe. Indeed, if you look at the new Achievement names of Trifecta and Complete, they should be exchanged to keep the theme/ trend consistent with the prevent two Trials. Xalvakka's Bane is a better suited at describing the combat prowess of players. Moreover, Soul Saviour is much more in-line with Sunspire Dragonbreak and Kyne's Deliverance as all of them describe the entire event, how a group of legendary characters saved the people in the Trial by seemingly flawlessly and effortlessly crushed the evil entities within and put an end to the entire story telling and progression, like a grand finale.
Title Naming
Next, on the Trifecta Titles, we have Godslayer and Kyne's Wrath. In Rockgrove, we have The Stone-Kissed and Planesbreaker. The Stone-Kissed (blessed/ favoured by the Stones, the Xanmeer, the one protected by the tribe), while it is very relevant to the Trial itself, is quite off in terms of focusing the combat prowess of players. On the other hand, Planesbreaker is far too generic. Even in the base game, players broke Sigil Stones many times and examples are the Main Questline in Auridon and one of the Quest Locations in Grahtwood. Planesbreaker reminds players nothing of the epic of the progression itself whereas Godslayer reminds players how difficult the journey had been through and how much they have come from where they started. Kyne's Wrath is also rather underwhelming to many players in my knowledge but I digress.
On the Complete Title, we have Hand of Alkosh and Dawnbringer. In Rockgrove, we have (1st week) Stone-Talker and (2nd week) Daedric Bane. Let me explain why I believe Hand of Alkosh, Dawnbringer and Stone-Talker are all fitting as the final Title you get from the respective Trials:
Feedback from the Endgame Community
Ultimately, while I do not have any solid evidence but only my observations, I believe the reason, or a significant part of the reasons they changed the name is because of the negative feedback from the vocal part of the endgame community. Nevertheless, I believe the actions they took is inappropriate. First of all, there are two Titles related to Trifectas, the Title directly from the Trifecta, and the Title from the Complete Achievement. Since the Side Achievements are rather easy to do in terms of skills (can be time consuming just not difficult), both Titles are essentially treated the same in terms of evaluating how good a player is and players often simply choose the one they consider "cooler" (Disclaimer: I do not consider Titles as a good indicator of a player's skills but it is true that it provides some information when you do not know a person well; I also believe players should not be judged by their Titles they have). For instance, to my knowledge, for Sunspire, Godslayer is generally more favoured despite the potential ideas and wisdom behind Hand of Alkosh while Dawnbringer is more favoured due to Kyne's Wrath being rather underwhelming and sharing too many similarities with the other Kyne's Titles. Therefore, there is no reason to discard most/ all the elements of lore or themes of the Trial in Title Naming just to promote/ motivate the endgame community to progress through the Trial. The Developers can easily keep the Complete Titles more lore-friendly/ fitting since they contain Side Achievements while making the Trifecta one "cooler" as this is usually what endgame progression groups target at. Indeed, while my experience with the endgame community would unfortunately cause me to agree that at least 80%+ endgame players care little about lore and stories, not everyone is the same. There are still some of us who are not vocal (I mean, there was nothing to be vocal about last week since Stone-Talker is a very good Title in my opinion) but care about the stories, lore and meanings behind Titles. I believe the Developers should balance between the thematical design of the game and the appeal to targeted players. Lore and stories have always been one of the main selling points of ESO and it should still be strongly considered when designing endgame content especially there is no conflict with mechanics design. Indeed, lore and stories is one of the main reasons I am playing this games for years; otherwise, I would not be writing this thread at all (if it is not obvious enough already).
Conclusion
If you read through my entire post, I want to say an extra thank you very much. I would like to mention this is not a rant nor a request thread but a simple feedback thread as I believe Stone-Talker received an unfair amount of negative feedback which originate from the lack of knowledge of/ lack of interest in lore/ general dislike/ disinterest in Argonian culture among the endgame players and I feel the need that one of the possible perspectives of lore-caring endgame players should also be heard.
To conclude, it is my personal belief that
Thank you everyone for reading and if there is any mistake/ fallacy in my writing, please let me know and I will correct my post ASAP.
First of all, for reference, the currently available Trial Titles are:
Sunspire:
Kyne's Aegis:Sunspire Ascendant || Sunspire Saint || Extinguisher of Flames || (Godslayer of Sunspire) Godslayer || (Sunspire Dragonbreak) Hand of Alkosh
Rockgrove (1st week PTS):Kyne's Chosen || Kyne's Will || Shield of the North || (Stainless Siege-breaker) Kyne's Wrath || (Kyne's Deliverance) Dawnbringer
Rockgrove (2nd week PTS):Defender of Rockgrove || Ca-Uxith Warrior || Xalvakka's Bane || (Soul Saviour) The Stone-Kissed || (Xalvakka's Bane) Stone-Talker
Defender of Rockgrove || Ca-Uxith Warrior || Xalvakka's Bane || (Soul Saviour) Planesbreaker || (Xalvakka's Bane) Daedric Bane
Now, if we look into the Achievement names and the Titles granted by their corresponding Achievements, there are some glaring naming issues in terms of consistency when compared with the past two Trials.
The Normal Completed, Veteran Completed and HM Completed in all three Trials follows a similar trend. We start as a helper (Defender)/ participant (Ascendant) and move on to be much more than just an outsider (a Saint of the place, a Will of the place, a Warrior of the tribe). Finally, HM Completed, with the exception of Sunspire, grants you Titles to show how strong you are for being able to defeat enemies at their full strength with Shield of the North, a Shield whose strength is unmatched by an army of Sea Giants and a ancient Vampire Lord and Xalvakka's Bane, a slayer who defeat even the mighty Xalvakka in her own domain.
However, the new Trifecta and its close cousin, Trifecta + Side Achievements which I will now refer to as Complete, follow a much different path from its predecessors.
Achievement Naming
First, the name of the achievements themselves. We have Godslayer of Sunspire and Stainless Siege-breaker. Both of the previous ones focus on how strong you are to dominate your enemies instead of simply defeating them whereas in Rockgrove, the Achievement name focuses on saving the tribe. Indeed, if you look at the new Achievement names of Trifecta and Complete, they should be exchanged to keep the theme/ trend consistent with the prevent two Trials. Xalvakka's Bane is a better suited at describing the combat prowess of players. Moreover, Soul Saviour is much more in-line with Sunspire Dragonbreak and Kyne's Deliverance as all of them describe the entire event, how a group of legendary characters saved the people in the Trial by seemingly flawlessly and effortlessly crushed the evil entities within and put an end to the entire story telling and progression, like a grand finale.
Title Naming
Next, on the Trifecta Titles, we have Godslayer and Kyne's Wrath. In Rockgrove, we have The Stone-Kissed and Planesbreaker. The Stone-Kissed (blessed/ favoured by the Stones, the Xanmeer, the one protected by the tribe), while it is very relevant to the Trial itself, is quite off in terms of focusing the combat prowess of players. On the other hand, Planesbreaker is far too generic. Even in the base game, players broke Sigil Stones many times and examples are the Main Questline in Auridon and one of the Quest Locations in Grahtwood. Planesbreaker reminds players nothing of the epic of the progression itself whereas Godslayer reminds players how difficult the journey had been through and how much they have come from where they started. Kyne's Wrath is also rather underwhelming to many players in my knowledge but I digress.
On the Complete Title, we have Hand of Alkosh and Dawnbringer. In Rockgrove, we have (1st week) Stone-Talker and (2nd week) Daedric Bane. Let me explain why I believe Hand of Alkosh, Dawnbringer and Stone-Talker are all fitting as the final Title you get from the respective Trials:
- Alkosh's Hand: This Title captures the essence of your heroics by showing others you vanquished the False Gods in Sunspire flawlessly as the true will of Alkosh. While Godslayer displays your actions in a more direct manner, this Titles tells a story and has much more in it. Furthermore, the Title shows the gratitude from the Alkosh devotees you freed from the Sunspire and to them, there is likely no better way to show their gratitude by calling you the Hand of Alkosh, a God they devote to.
- Dawnbringer: For the people of Kyne's Aegis, the day has to be one of their darkest days in their lives -- being sieged by an army of Sea Giants while being tortured by the ancient Vampire Lord, Falgravn. Indeed, in the fight with Falgravn, you are faced with waves of despair as the Unstable Energy room-wide AoE increases gradually not to mention the helpless people you are supposed to save in the execute phase (< 35% HP). Nevertheless, despite the absolute darkness before dawn, your group persevered and brought forth the light in Kyne's Aegis. A new dawn, a future for the people of Kyne's. Dawnbringer is a great Title which reminds players the epic fight with Falgravn and tells the story of how players ignited the hope of the people of Kyne's by showing them the bravery of your group. Dawnbringer also echoes well with the achievement name, Kyne's Deliverance.
- Stone-Talker: Let's first look at the description in-game:
From the description, Stone-Talker is, in my opinion, a very fitting Title for this Achievement from the lore perspective. Indeed, you are the special Stone-Talker who saves the tribe as foretold and it is likely the Ca-Uxith tribe's way of showing their gratitude. While the HM mechanics are not yet implemented and thus it is difficult to say how much does the Title echoes with the mechanics but lore wise, Stone-Talker is strong candidate. Furthermore, it echoes with the Achievement name, Soul Saviour since you are the Stone-Talker who saves the souls of the tribe.Stone-talkers from the Ca-Uxith tribe have watched over Rockgrove's xanmeer for centuries. Although the stone stays silent, the chaos roiling beneath it could erupt at any moment. Before this occurs, a stone-talker will see the signs and prepare the tribe's defenses. - Daedric Bane: In my opinion, this is the worst Trial Title to be released in-game. This Title shares too many similarities with Titles readily available to players such as Daedric Lord Slayers. Moreover, it is far too generic. It reminds players little of the Trial itself and shows little of the players' combat prowess and hardship during their progression. It is essentially feels unrelated to the story/ content due to its generic nature and it is also inconsistent with the Achievement name of Soul Saviour as it is supposed to capture the heroics of the players.
Feedback from the Endgame Community
Ultimately, while I do not have any solid evidence but only my observations, I believe the reason, or a significant part of the reasons they changed the name is because of the negative feedback from the vocal part of the endgame community. Nevertheless, I believe the actions they took is inappropriate. First of all, there are two Titles related to Trifectas, the Title directly from the Trifecta, and the Title from the Complete Achievement. Since the Side Achievements are rather easy to do in terms of skills (can be time consuming just not difficult), both Titles are essentially treated the same in terms of evaluating how good a player is and players often simply choose the one they consider "cooler" (Disclaimer: I do not consider Titles as a good indicator of a player's skills but it is true that it provides some information when you do not know a person well; I also believe players should not be judged by their Titles they have). For instance, to my knowledge, for Sunspire, Godslayer is generally more favoured despite the potential ideas and wisdom behind Hand of Alkosh while Dawnbringer is more favoured due to Kyne's Wrath being rather underwhelming and sharing too many similarities with the other Kyne's Titles. Therefore, there is no reason to discard most/ all the elements of lore or themes of the Trial in Title Naming just to promote/ motivate the endgame community to progress through the Trial. The Developers can easily keep the Complete Titles more lore-friendly/ fitting since they contain Side Achievements while making the Trifecta one "cooler" as this is usually what endgame progression groups target at. Indeed, while my experience with the endgame community would unfortunately cause me to agree that at least 80%+ endgame players care little about lore and stories, not everyone is the same. There are still some of us who are not vocal (I mean, there was nothing to be vocal about last week since Stone-Talker is a very good Title in my opinion) but care about the stories, lore and meanings behind Titles. I believe the Developers should balance between the thematical design of the game and the appeal to targeted players. Lore and stories have always been one of the main selling points of ESO and it should still be strongly considered when designing endgame content especially there is no conflict with mechanics design. Indeed, lore and stories is one of the main reasons I am playing this games for years; otherwise, I would not be writing this thread at all (if it is not obvious enough already).
Conclusion
If you read through my entire post, I want to say an extra thank you very much. I would like to mention this is not a rant nor a request thread but a simple feedback thread as I believe Stone-Talker received an unfair amount of negative feedback which originate from the lack of knowledge of/ lack of interest in lore/ general dislike/ disinterest in Argonian culture among the endgame players and I feel the need that one of the possible perspectives of lore-caring endgame players should also be heard.
To conclude, it is my personal belief that
- Stone-Talker should be kept as the Title granted for the Complete Achievement.
- The Trifecta and Complete Achievement names should be exchanged (Xalvakka's Bane --> Trifecta Achievement name and Soul Saviour --> Complete Achievement name) to keep the naming convention consistent with the previous two Trials.
- A more epic name for the Trifecta should be considered instead of Planesbreaker (as an example, I believe it is rather underwhelming when compared to Godslayer in terms of "coolness" among those who want to be "cool").
Thank you everyone for reading and if there is any mistake/ fallacy in my writing, please let me know and I will correct my post ASAP.
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