Don't Nerf Penetration CP Passive

merpins

So the passives are getting nerfed in CP 2 as we all know. It's not a huge nerf, even with much of these nerfs being 50%, the bonuses weren't really significant anyway. Total, it's maybe a 3% damage reduction for most DPS', and a minor nerf to healers and tanks. This isn't terrible; since CP2 came out, the amount you get from passives has been so minuscule that you wouldn't feel much of a difference if they just went away entirely except for only slottables, since the slottable ones are where our extra stats really come from. I'm not a big fan of that, since you don't notice any real power increase after cp 600, which makes cp2 not feel significant really in the first place...

This is to say, except for the penetration passive. It's much harder for stam DPS to meet the required penetration for Trials than it is for magicka dps, to the point that many groups just won't let you in their group if you're a stamina dps. The 700 penetration loss isn't much, but just that little bit was a lifesaver for many stam DPS builds. I recommend not nerfing this passive in particular for this reason, either that or do something about Stamina DPS' lack of penetration to make up for the low numbers that are there even if the nerf to the penetration passive is reversed. I do NOT recommend making a slottable CP star that gives penetration, that misses the point entirely. But for Stam dps, we're kinda SOL in general when it comes to end game content due to low penetration, with or without the passive, BUT at least with the passive we can squeak by with some builds.

Lord_Nikon

How be we don’t nerf any of them and keep them the way it is now. 😁

MashmalloMan

I don't see any real way they can fix this beyond reworking the armor passive or introducing a penetration cp slottable.

ZOS's stupid solution will be to just add more physical penetration debuff group sets like Tremorscale which entirely misses the point. Not all pve content is within a 12 person trial setting, in solo/4 man content, you still want to get as close to pen cap as possible, but you're forced to give up a lot of a crit to make that happen via losing out on Thief mundus stone, a 5 piece set for something like Twice Fanged Serpent, Maces over Daggers, Sharpened over Precise.

It's not exactly fun being shoehorned into taking all these avenues to make up for 6k + pen and by light armor not having to deal with it.. regular groups just focus on damage multiplier sets that provide spell damage/ slayer/ regen/ fire damage done/ crit damage done, etc.

Honestly, with the changes to proc set scaling and the issues it's causing with stamina builds directly getting better scaling due to the higher weapon damage modifiers we get, it may be time to just redo the Light/Medium armor passives entirely.

For example:
Medium updated to give +1% weapon damage and +450 physical pen per piece slotted.
Light armor updated to give +1% spell damage and +450 spell pen per piece slotted.

The crit, cost reduction and regen passives are already the same. There is no reason against the idea proposed above to make the most important passive of the tree the same between them as well. This would fix issues within pve AND pvp. It's also more hybrid friendly as you're not stuck with higher weapon damage and lower physical penetration than the magicka counterparts.

Purereality

I agree entirely, I don't understand why ZOS is so hellbent on what will cause an even further divide between endgame stam and mag dps. Having a mixed group will never be as effective as having either a full stam or full mag comp, with full mag being objectively better in the current meta. Even with everything in Stam's favor such as Alkosh & Tremorscale, they either are just barely below the penetration cap or slightly manage to exceed it. The issue with this is that both of these sets don't particularly provide much to mag dps, and unless the majority of the group composition is stam, will end up negatively affecting the party as a whole. As a stamina dps main this is incredibly frustrating as it prevents me from playing the game how I'd like to at a very core level. While meta should dictate which gearsets, and sometimes even which classes you play, and entire playstyle shouldn't just be invalidated from the start.

ajkb78

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

So the passives are getting nerfed in CP 2 as we all know. It's not a huge nerf, even with much of these nerfs being 50%, the bonuses weren't really significant anyway. Total, it's maybe a 3% damage reduction for most DPS', and a minor nerf to healers and tanks. This isn't terrible; since CP2 came out, the amount you get from passives has been so minuscule that you wouldn't feel much of a difference if they just went away entirely except for only slottables, since the slottable ones are where our extra stats really come from. I'm not a big fan of that, since you don't notice any real power increase after cp 600, which makes cp2 not feel significant really in the first place...

This is to say, except for the penetration passive. It's much harder for stam DPS to meet the required penetration for Trials than it is for magicka dps, to the point that many groups just won't let you in their group if you're a stamina dps. The 700 penetration loss isn't much, but just that little bit was a lifesaver for many stam DPS builds. I recommend not nerfing this passive in particular for this reason, either that or do something about Stamina DPS' lack of penetration to make up for the low numbers that are there even if the nerf to the penetration passive is reversed. I do NOT recommend making a slottable CP star that gives penetration, that misses the point entirely. But for Stam dps, we're kinda SOL in general when it comes to end game content due to low penetration, with or without the passive, BUT at least with the passive we can squeak by with some builds.

Agreed, and it also forces even magicka dps into 7 light in order to maximise penetration which removes the diversity of builds and armor weights ZoS claimed they were trying to promote last patch. It doesn't just hurt stamina, it hurts medusa-wearers.

It hasn't changed in 7.0.1 but the first mid-pts combat changes don't usually appear till week 3, so fingers crossed.

Lord_Nikon

Stam pen should at least be part of weapon skills much like destro staff is for magicka.

It’s annoying that resources or various values that are needed are always on gear and not the characters themselves..

By reducing the pen value on CP they have just made characters themselves more reliant on what they wear.

Gear should ADD to player power not be the only source for it.

ThoughtRaven

ajkb78 wrote: »

Agreed, and it also forces even magicka dps into 7 light in order to maximise penetration which removes the diversity of builds and armor weights ZoS claimed they were trying to promote last patch.

Hmmm.

So ZoS' attempts to "fix" a nonexistent problem that only they imagined, ended up "fixing" the problem into existence?

Color me not surprised.

ResidentContrarian

I like how people try to stealthily advocate for stam buffs they know will make stam pass mag up even further in PvP than it already has. Medium armor does not need any buffs, if anything it needs some demerits like the other two armor types.

That said,

CP is not supposed to be the end-all be-all in the game. It's supposed to augment builds, not make or break them. That it does so to your build is a build problem, not a general balance one.

I can pull a complaint about a perspective build and every CP star available in the game, that doesn''t exactly make it a core balance issue that needs to be rectified.

It's beyond amazing how many people are silent about changes until their builds get hit.

RogueShark

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

I like how people try to stealthily advocate for stam buffs they know will make stam pass mag up even further in PvP than it already has. Medium armor does not need any buffs, if anything it needs some demerits like the other two armor types.

That said,

CP is not supposed to be the end-all be-all in the game. It's supposed to augment builds, not make or break them. That it does so to your build is a build problem, not a general balance one.

I can pull a complaint about a perspective build and every CP star available in the game, that doesn''t exactly make it a core balance issue that needs to be rectified.

It's beyond amazing how many people are silent about changes until their builds get hit.

It isn't just a build that's suffering from penetration issues, but an entire playstyle across all classes. Stam has been undesirable compared to mag in PvE for a while now, and that gap is further increasing.

Putting mag in a spot where they no longer require alkosh means that most groups no longer run it. It's a wasted gear slot when mag is superior to stam and many groups gear to support their majority mag composition. So stam are left trying to make up something like 6k penetration on their own. That is a LOT of pen to try and make up. You lose out on a lot of crit because of it.

I understand that stam overperforms in PvP, but when ZoS themselves have stated in these PTS notes that they're trying to close the gap between mag and stam in PvE, these huge penetration discrepancies fly in the face of that.

As another poster above mentioned, nerfing the pen CP does also impacts mag dps, albeit to a lesser degree. It encourages a 7 light setup versus other build/gear options. The pen CP star was already meager in comparison to CP 1.0; it didn't need nerfed further.

Purereality

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

I like how people try to stealthily advocate for stam buffs they know will make stam pass mag up even further in PvP than it already has. Medium armor does not need any buffs, if anything it needs some demerits like the other two armor types.

That said,

CP is not supposed to be the end-all be-all in the game. It's supposed to augment builds, not make or break them. That it does so to your build is a build problem, not a general balance one.

I can pull a complaint about a perspective build and every CP star available in the game, that doesn''t exactly make it a core balance issue that needs to be rectified.

It's beyond amazing how many people are silent about changes until their builds get hit.

I believe most of the people in this thread(including myself) are speaking from a pve standpoint. Stam in pvp is an entirely different beast, but currently in PVE they tend to be outright banned from most end-game highly skilled groups(HMs, Trifectas, etc.). Unless the group is majority stam and the supports build around that, they end up being a hindrance to most groups and it's simply more effective to replace them with mag. This is in part due to the stam's penetration being extremely lacking in comparison to mag. Medium armor does need a buff because otherwise, the stam experience will continue to suffer in end-game content. The solution shouldn't just be "switch to mag" but unfortunately, that's generally the advice given by a majority of the top-tier endgame players.

honey_badger82

Nerfing these two passives are the straw that closes my wallet to ZoS. I enjoy group dungeon content, soloing some dungeons and overland. There are so many things you must build for to be effective; the right balance of resources, enough armor and resistances, recovery of primary resource, crit chance, crit damage, wpn/ spell damage and penetration. Penetration only being necessary in dungeons, trials and pvp making stacking this must needed stat for these 3 activities useless for anything overland. The nickel and dime game with shaving stats ever so slightly each update has truly worn on me. I do not enjoy the game anymore because of it.
Pretty much the only difference between my various dps characters is race, class and the weapon type. They all use sharpened for weapon trait, the lover for mundus, slot razor caltrops and as quickly as I can reconstruct and upgrade it switching to spriggans thorns for at least one set.

ResidentContrarian

Bizzarre that players actually think that other players not wanting to play with them is a valid argument for a nerf or a buff, or says anything about overall game balance.

But that is why their requests won't be heard.

Purereality

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Bizzarre that players actually think that other players not wanting to play with them is a valid argument for a nerf or a buff, or says anything about overall game balance.

But that is why their requests won't be heard.

[Snip] this is an extreme oversimplification of what's been stated thus. It's not "oh, mag players are soo mean to us" but rather Stam being entirely unviable in end game content unless the entire team builds around them. Stam players can make it work, but for most optimized parties a mag dps will always be objectively better than a stam. There's a reason nearly all high-tier trial guilds don't allow Stam, and clearly, this says ALOT about overall game balance when an entire playstyle is completely invalidated from the start. I don't expect nor want a full stam meta. I want mixed parties to be able to function effectively instead of further dividing party compositions into all stam or all mag like ZOS has been doing for some time now. Also on the topic of all Stam compositions, they aren't amazing, which is why the endgame(HMs, Tris, Scorepushers, etc.) community prefers mag.

[Edited for baiting]

phil.maricel08ub17_ESO

Purereality wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Bizzarre that players actually think that other players not wanting to play with them is a valid argument for a nerf or a buff, or says anything about overall game balance.

But that is why their requests won't be heard.

[Snip] this is an extreme oversimplification of what's been stated thus. It's not "oh, mag players are soo mean to us" but rather Stam being entirely unviable in end game content unless the entire team builds around them. Stam players can make it work, but for most optimized parties a mag dps will always be objectively better than a stam. There's a reason nearly all high-tier trial guilds don't allow Stam, and clearly, this says ALOT about overall game balance when an entire playstyle is completely invalidated from the start. I don't expect nor want a full stam meta. I want mixed parties to be able to function effectively instead of further dividing party compositions into all stam or all mag like ZOS has been doing for some time now. Also on the topic of all Stam compositions, they aren't amazing, which is why the endgame(HMs, Tris, Scorepushers, etc.) community prefers mag.

Zos knows this, and still, our stamina toons sit in despair only used in PvP. How does this continue to be the case? Wish I knew

OneWingedAnge7

On my stam sorc on live I run 1 piece Kraghs, always. Precise 2h maul and use crystal weapon as my spammable. So if my math is right I have approx 5.8k pen before my cp is added. It's not ideal and my crit hovers around the 60-65% mark.

On my magblade though, I have around 75% crit and have never once had to worry about pen. Something needs to change man.

All in all by having to run a Kraghs 1 piece I'm able to keep my pen is a healthy spot but at the expense of crit, which is something I don't need to do on mag, at all. I do understand that medium armor has damage baked into it, but if I'm honest damage is 3rd on the list for pve. Behind pen and crit... And for me, it's pretty far behind.

Amottica

Lord_Nikon wrote: »

Stam pen should at least be part of weapon skills much like destro staff is for magicka.

It’s annoying that resources or various values that are needed are always on gear and not the characters themselves..

By reducing the pen value on CP they have just made characters themselves more reliant on what they wear.

Gear should ADD to player power not be the only source for it.

Please correct me if I am wrong since I am still learning. It seems a couple of the stamina weapon lines do grant armor penetration except to everything, unlike magicka staves. Maces seem to be the trick. Is there a problem with that?

Maybe if they changed that passive so it was the same flat number is staves have and only affect weapon skills. Another idea is to trade DW Slaughter for the penetration affecting weapon skills?

Just thinking out loud.

merpins

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

I like how people try to stealthily advocate for stam buffs they know will make stam pass mag up even further in PvP than it already has. Medium armor does not need any buffs, if anything it needs some demerits like the other two armor types.

That said,

CP is not supposed to be the end-all be-all in the game. It's supposed to augment builds, not make or break them. That it does so to your build is a build problem, not a general balance one.

I can pull a complaint about a perspective build and every CP star available in the game, that doesn''t exactly make it a core balance issue that needs to be rectified.

It's beyond amazing how many people are silent about changes until their builds get hit.

This discussion wasn't about armor, but we can take it there: the benefits of medium armor outweigh the benefits of light armor, both in the new passive system and with the passive skills you need to unlock. However Light armor has an advantage at end game over Medium armor due to penetration. You need to hit the penetration cap in order to do end game content, but where Magicka DPS don't need to even worry about penetration and have (near) complete freedom in their builds, Stamina DPS don't have complete freedom in their builds due to a passive ability in the built-in skill line of the armor type that Stamina DPS uses. The hit to penetration isn't a lot, but it doesn't hit any specific build like you say, but rather Stamina builds as a whole.

I wouldn't want the two armor passives to be completely uniform, that would make it a bit boring though it would be a balance option. What I would want is something that helps Stamina meet the penetration requirements in a similar way to Magicka. 700 loss isn't a ton, but all of my stamina builds (of which all use a set that grants penetration, as well as maces with the sharpened trait) would go from anywhere between 9300-9500 penetration, to obviously under the penetration requirement despite still running far more gear than a magicka DPS would run for the same amount of penetration. By the way, I have 2 mains, one of which is a magicka DPS. That character runs very little in the way of gear that increases penetration, and just has 10k without me having to build for it.

grumpy_pants95

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

This is to say, except for the penetration passive. It's much harder for stam DPS to meet the required penetration for Trials than it is for magicka dps, to the point that many groups just won't let you in their group if you're a stamina dps. The 700 penetration loss isn't much, but just that little bit was a lifesaver for many stam DPS builds. I recommend not nerfing this passive in particular for this reason, either that or do something about Stamina DPS' lack of penetration to make up for the low numbers that are there even if the nerf to the penetration passive is reversed. I do NOT recommend making a slottable CP star that gives penetration, that misses the point entirely. But for Stam dps, we're kinda SOL in general when it comes to end game content due to low penetration, with or without the passive, BUT at least with the passive we can squeak by with some builds.

I mean... If people kick out players for reasons like "oh you're stam so you can't do trials with me" that is just toxicity at it's finest. I think that's a horrible thing to do and quite frankly defeats the whole point of team work in trials. There is no content that IS requiring you to only be magicka or only be stamina or only be hybrid. There is NO content that requires you hit a certain value of penetration to be able to do it - in a 12 man content so to me "hearing" all of that makes me stay away from a lot of players even more and actually be scared to ask for help because i'll be criticised and scrutinised to the bones by the "end game" community for not playing to "their rules" which clearly are not what the game is about and it should NOT matter.

Athan1

I changed to magicka because stamina has so little access to pen.

Sun7dance

Vateshran is the answer to the question whether zos cares about staminas in pve.

Sometimes an explanation is so simple!

Mumbles_the_Tank

grumpy_pants95 wrote: »

I mean... If people kick out players for reasons like "oh you're stam so you can't do trials with me" that is just toxicity at it's finest. I think that's a horrible thing to do and quite frankly defeats the whole point of team work in trials. There is no content that IS requiring you to only be magicka or only be stamina or only be hybrid. There is NO content that requires you hit a certain value of penetration to be able to do it - in a 12 man content so to me "hearing" all of that makes me stay away from a lot of players even more and actually be scared to ask for help because i'll be criticised and scrutinised to the bones by the "end game" community for not playing to "their rules" which clearly are not what the game is about and it should NOT matter.

Except it does matter. Penetration cap matters, support sets matter. This is the first step of the teamwork! It’s not that stam is being banned or booted - they are being actively made hard to support - over and over and over by ZoS decisions.

Zenimax themselves are the ones who have discouraged mixed spec comps by ignoring both these issues for at least year if not 2. It has simply become harder to properly support both mag and stam with the limited space for an increasing number of buff sets. Mostly mag orientated I might add.

CP2.0 could have alleviated some of this - supporting mixed comps shouldn’t have been as difficult moving forward. The asinine pen changes incoming are simply unnecessary and double down on this issue that’s only been created from ZoS incompetence.

MacCait

Yh please dont nerf CP, just leave it where it is

AgentUriel

Look I just want a viable stamina dps build I can bring into trials without feeling like I'm bring the group down despite good dps. It shouldn't be this hard to optimize. Not to mention itemizing on a mag dps is a ridiculously easy answer, just get more crit! How? Wear mother's sorrow and medusa at the same time with a precise front bar. Not hard. That. Is. 80%+ crit.

Can a stam character compare? Really? Mag isn't worried about meeting penetration for max damage.

This is a clear disparity. There isn't an easy solution for stam. Prove me wrong please. Anyone?

merpins

AgentUriel wrote: »

Look I just want a viable stamina dps build I can bring into trials without feeling like I'm bring the group down despite good dps. It shouldn't be this hard to optimize. Not to mention itemizing on a mag dps is a ridiculously easy answer, just get more crit! How? Wear mother's sorrow and medusa at the same time with a precise front bar. Not hard. That. Is. 80%+ crit.

Can a stam character compare? Really? Mag isn't worried about meeting penetration for max damage.

This is a clear disparity. There isn't an easy solution for stam. Prove me wrong please. Anyone?

No, no. Totally correct. I saw people arguing in other threads discussing this issue, including one of my own, that because Stam gets a bunch of weapon attack from the medium armor skill line, we should be just fine. But that skirts the issue entirely. Pen locks us out of content, weapon attack doesn't, plus it doesn't matter as much as pen and crit rate.