PVE MagDk.. A discussion.

SonOfSoma

Ok...

So I've played MagDK from the off and I think the most important question is: Why has this class been so abused by the developers?
Why is this amazing class constantly subjected to nerf upon nerf?

It nears the bottom of dps... it struggles with sustain..

I remember, just one, solitary patch MagDK was sweet...

I wonder why the devs continually hate and destroy such an awesome class...
Is it because of PVP???

Please.. just give me back my first love.

Brrrofski

Again, "let's blame PvP".

Mag DK has been nerfed over and over in PvP too and is near the bottom of the list for that.

Find something new to blame.

Sju

Magdk was one of top dps not long ago. I know I'm not the only one that saw in an increase in dps and an improvement in sustain since one of the patches last year/fall. That was even with less recovery than I usually have

SonOfSoma

Brrrofski wrote: »

Again, "let's blame PvP".

Mag DK has been nerfed over and over in PvP too and is near the bottom of the list for that.

Find something new to blame.

Yes.. is that not a point then?

colossalvoids

The only real problem in pve is sustain really (which is intentional?), even after vas staff loss it's still in a pretty good spot damage wise imo.

GreenHere

Not to tell anyone how to play or anything, but just genuinely trying to help offer potentially-useful insight:

Don't worry so much about who's in the top spot for meta damage.
Don't spend so much time wringing your hands over single digit % points of difference.
Try to focus more on what you enjoy, and less on what you don't.

If you can still complete the content you like, and you can still set an ungodly amount of things on fire and burn them to ashes and then burn their ashes to ashes, then you'll have a much better time with your MagDK if you don't burden yourself with this, "But what about what those other classes/builds/people have?! Look what they can do!" mentality.

I get that mentality, truly. It's the easy default way of looking at things, and it's all too easy to slip into -- especially as you progress toward endgame stuff. ESO is kind of mechanic heavy and number crunchy in some senses, so it makes a certain amount of sense to look at things this way. I tend to fall into that trap myself unless I make a conscious effort to let go of that nonsense and instead focus on the fun.

It took a friend to call me out on my whining to get me to loosen up and just have a good time. IIRC the conversation was basically, "You enjoy setting things on fire, right? And we're absolutely smashing this dungeon, even though there's only two of us... So what are you whinging about?! Just have fun, dude!" And they were right. I was too caught up in worrying about "performance" or whatever to remember that video games are supposed to be fun. I'm a dumb.

Sorry for the unsolicited advice, but like I said it took a friend to knock some sense into me. I hope this helps!

The_Old_Goat

GreenHere wrote: »

Not to tell anyone how to play or anything, but just genuinely trying to help offer potentially-useful insight:

Don't worry so much about who's in the top spot for meta damage.
Don't spend so much time wringing your hands over single digit % points of difference.
Try to focus more on what you enjoy, and less on what you don't.

If you can still complete the content you like, and you can still set an ungodly amount of things on fire and burn them to ashes and then burn their ashes to ashes, then you'll have a much better time with your MagDK if you don't burden yourself with this, "But what about what those other classes/builds/people have?! Look what they can do!" mentality.

I get that mentality, truly. It's the easy default way of looking at things, and it's all too easy to slip into -- especially as you progress toward endgame stuff. ESO is kind of mechanic heavy and number crunchy in some senses, so it makes a certain amount of sense to look at things this way. I tend to fall into that trap myself unless I make a conscious effort to let go of that nonsense and instead focus on the fun.

It took a friend to call me out on my whining to get me to loosen up and just have a good time. IIRC the conversation was basically, "You enjoy setting things on fire, right? And we're absolutely smashing this dungeon, even though there's only two of us... So what are you whinging about?! Just have fun, dude!" And they were right. I was too caught up in worrying about "performance" or whatever to remember that video games are supposed to be fun. I'm a dumb.

Sorry for the unsolicited advice, but like I said it took a friend to knock some sense into me. I hope this helps!

Man...this right here! Your unsolicited advice is spot on and I couldn't agree more. If more people ignored the dps tier lists they'd have a much happier existence.

Elo106

Thats what MagDK has come to, just accept that you suck, play and enjoy easier content?
Dont chase leaderboards cause its frustrating?

Everest_Lionheart

85k last patch down to 80k this patch still running two inferno staves and not the DW front bar meta. Decided to throw in Zen’s to help the group with buffs. Was hitting 80 in Zen’s last patch and 75 this patch with Zen’s. MagDK is just fine in my opinion. I’m at 80 on my Magcro, 76 on magplar, 75 on magblade. A bit more squishy across the board but that’s a whole other issue entirely. The class is far from dead though.

Narvuntien

MagDK has a lot of damage and constantly terrible sustain. You have to give up some damage for more sustain, which is using Charged staves for more burning status.

El_Borracho

Narvuntien wrote: »

MagDK has a lot of damage and constantly terrible sustain. You have to give up some damage for more sustain, which is using Charged staves for more burning status.

Yep. This has always been the problem. Even if it had a damage/sustain feature like Siphoning Attacks it would be a vast improvement

TwinLamps

I misread the thread name as PVE MagDk.. A depression.
Wasnt far from truth

supersonic_kitten

I main a magdk DD and honestly... after the last patch I've been enjoying it a lot and it's actually doing much better than my magblade. Sustain hasn't been that much of an issue even before the patch really (the class passives reaIly help, though I *am* running FG full time, but then again - I have more than enough flex slots so I don't need medusa, especially since the balance skill is no longer needed). I don't know, I'm just genuinely having so much fun playing this class now in PVE, I don't get where all the complaints come from. I'm running a generic Zaan + MS + FG setup, so really. No depression here at all with the magdk! :P

Everest_Lionheart

supersonic_kitten wrote: »

I main a magdk DD and honestly... after the last patch I've been enjoying it a lot and it's actually doing much better than my magblade. Sustain hasn't been that much of an issue even before the patch really (the class passives reaIly help, though I *am* running FG full time, but then again - I have more than enough flex slots so I don't need medusa, especially since the balance skill is no longer needed). I don't know, I'm just genuinely having so much fun playing this class now in PVE, I don't get where all the complaints come from. I'm running a generic Zaan + MS + FG setup, so really. No depression here at all with the magdk! :P

Same, as I posted above I am having no issues at all myself. Running full DOT build with Siroria, Zen’s and Zaan. No need for spell symmetry anymore either. Sustain is all in the management of your dots and not over spamming whips. Not that hard really. I don’t even slot the extra dot on some content where I can use coagulating blood as an oh crap heal.

AuraStorm43

Mag DK is a fantastic support DPS, thats what all my vcr clears are on. Zen DK’s are typically wanted in every group cuz its easier to offload it so the healer can run Roaring Opportunist

Sure they don’t pump out high numbers but thats not really the point of the class, its to pump up everyone elses dps

Runefang

GreenHere wrote: »

Not to tell anyone how to play or anything, but just genuinely trying to help offer potentially-useful insight:

Don't worry so much about who's in the top spot for meta damage.
Don't spend so much time wringing your hands over single digit % points of difference.
Try to focus more on what you enjoy, and less on what you don't.

If you can still complete the content you like, and you can still set an ungodly amount of things on fire and burn them to ashes and then burn their ashes to ashes, then you'll have a much better time with your MagDK if you don't burden yourself with this, "But what about what those other classes/builds/people have?! Look what they can do!" mentality.

I get that mentality, truly. It's the easy default way of looking at things, and it's all too easy to slip into -- especially as you progress toward endgame stuff. ESO is kind of mechanic heavy and number crunchy in some senses, so it makes a certain amount of sense to look at things this way. I tend to fall into that trap myself unless I make a conscious effort to let go of that nonsense and instead focus on the fun.

It took a friend to call me out on my whining to get me to loosen up and just have a good time. IIRC the conversation was basically, "You enjoy setting things on fire, right? And we're absolutely smashing this dungeon, even though there's only two of us... So what are you whinging about?! Just have fun, dude!" And they were right. I was too caught up in worrying about "performance" or whatever to remember that video games are supposed to be fun. I'm a dumb.

Sorry for the unsolicited advice, but like I said it took a friend to knock some sense into me. I hope this helps!

That's all well and good, but once you want to do the end game with your favourite class and you're not invited to the party it's not applicable advice.

That said everybody wants a Zen DK.

AcadianPaladin

Forgive my ignorance but what set is 'FG'?

GreenHere

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but what set is 'FG'?

I see FG and think Fungal Grotto, but given the context I believe they're referring to False God's (Devotion).

GreenHere

Runefang wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Not to tell anyone how to play or anything, but just genuinely trying to help offer potentially-useful insight:

Don't worry so much about who's in the top spot for meta damage.
Don't spend so much time wringing your hands over single digit % points of difference.
Try to focus more on what you enjoy, and less on what you don't.

If you can still complete the content you like, and you can still set an ungodly amount of things on fire and burn them to ashes and then burn their ashes to ashes, then you'll have a much better time with your MagDK if you don't burden yourself with this, "But what about what those other classes/builds/people have?! Look what they can do!" mentality.

I get that mentality, truly. It's the easy default way of looking at things, and it's all too easy to slip into -- especially as you progress toward endgame stuff. ESO is kind of mechanic heavy and number crunchy in some senses, so it makes a certain amount of sense to look at things this way. I tend to fall into that trap myself unless I make a conscious effort to let go of that nonsense and instead focus on the fun.

It took a friend to call me out on my whining to get me to loosen up and just have a good time. IIRC the conversation was basically, "You enjoy setting things on fire, right? And we're absolutely smashing this dungeon, even though there's only two of us... So what are you whinging about?! Just have fun, dude!" And they were right. I was too caught up in worrying about "performance" or whatever to remember that video games are supposed to be fun. I'm a dumb.

Sorry for the unsolicited advice, but like I said it took a friend to knock some sense into me. I hope this helps!

That's all well and good, but once you want to do the end game with your favourite class and you're not invited to the party it's not applicable advice.

That said everybody wants a Zen DK.

Yeah, that is a problem, I'll admit. One could argue the whole "you need better friends" angle, as I've seen others do when presented with your point, but I know it's not that simple a lot of times. There's only so many endgame teams around in the first place, and only so much time in the day to spend looking for more lax groups that take whoever regardless of class. So it's a fair point.

Creating your own groups that are less stick-up-the-butt-y about letting people play what class they like seems like an obvious go-to, but then that pretty much precludes you from competing on leaderboards, if that's your jam.

So it seems there's no easy answer IF (big if) you truly occupy that top ~5% of the population that is looking to compete for the pinnacle of performance. No shade thrown at those folks, because I can't do what they do and am generally in awe of how much better they are than us mere mortals.

But in my experience, most of the people stressing themselves out over the meta could have a much better time if they just played the game and took things a touch less seriously. I don't disagree with you, because I know you're right given those parameters. But a lot of the people who are worrying themselves over said slim margins of performance really don't have much external need to; most could find a more chill group and still clear all the vet Trials in the game they wanted, and have a better time doing it.

Sadly, a large chunk of the veteran content community has fallen into this "anything not top-tier meta is simply not viable!" mindset, and reality just doesn't reflect that in most cases. People lose sight of that sometimes.

That's all I was trying to put out there. As usual, I just didn't word it too well. :P


Thanks for the salient counterpoint, though! I did kind of just (unintentionally) ignore that glaring flaw in my logic in the previous post. Good catch

ceiron

I main a stam nb. But mostly tank these days. Heal when I can and rarely dd. But my mag dk I have fallen in love with. I miss the op as staff build days but it still hits ok. Running mk zen. Bringing group buffs but holding my own. Ie I can solo the boat in vka if needed. Probably people out there could dps with it better. But I really enjoy it and its viable. We adapt and overcome every patch change. Isnt ideal sometimes but hey ***.
More for the fun then anything right now but still doing stuff.

rumple9

I prefer my magdk to my sorc these days

Sangwyne

Remember that ZOS reduced ranged Light attacks by 10% in order to ensure melee attacks had higher DPS due to their lack of range and safety.

Reduced the damage from all ranged Light and Medium Attacks by 10% to ensure they meet ranged damage standards. Heavy Attacks already meet these standards.

So why then is the one melee-only class consistently pulling the least damage? This is on top of Staves taking up two slots but still having lower W/S damage than 2h weapons. Really feels like they should apply that same philosophy to classes.

Lusty

I used to main magsorc because i hated the sustain issues with DK.
though when i discovered the magDK heavy attack build (thanks to PaddyVu) it's become my favorite char.
I have zero issues with sustain and i changed it up a bit so it can tank as well, helped me loads to get ''Flawless conqueror''.
It's my main now.

Sangwyne

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

Mag DK is a fantastic support DPS, thats what all my vcr clears are on. Zen DK’s are typically wanted in every group cuz its easier to offload it so the healer can run Roaring Opportunist

Sure they don’t pump out high numbers but thats not really the point of the class, its to pump up everyone elses dps

Just feels like the class shouldn't be forced into being a "support" DPS, it should be capable of pulling the same numbers as everyone else. When DK is the worst healer in the game and also has poor DPS, there's really only one role you can take it on, which gives rise to this notion that they somehow make amazing tanks and therefore don't need buffs.

DK has the worst sustain of any class, with the worst healing of any class, consistently pulls less DPS than other classes even with Vateshran daggers, and is the only class without a heal scaling off Max HP. There's no reason for GDB to scale off missing health, and no reason for the class to be the only one restricted to melee when we don't actually gain anything from being restricted to melee. There is zero compensation being given for DK being in such a terrible spot. It needs attention.

SonOfSoma

Sangwyne wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

Mag DK is a fantastic support DPS, thats what all my vcr clears are on. Zen DK’s are typically wanted in every group cuz its easier to offload it so the healer can run Roaring Opportunist

Sure they don’t pump out high numbers but thats not really the point of the class, its to pump up everyone elses dps

Just feels like the class shouldn't be forced into being a "support" DPS, it should be capable of pulling the same numbers as everyone else. When DK is the worst healer in the game and also has poor DPS, there's really only one role you can take it on, which gives rise to this notion that they somehow make amazing tanks and therefore don't need buffs.

DK has the worst sustain of any class, with the worst healing of any class, consistently pulls less DPS than other classes even with Vateshran daggers, and is the only class without a heal scaling off Max HP. There's no reason for GDB to scale off missing health, and no reason for the class to be the only one restricted to melee when we don't actually gain anything from being restricted to melee. There is zero compensation being given for DK being in such a terrible spot. It needs attention.

Totally agree.

AuraStorm43

Sangwyne wrote: »

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

Mag DK is a fantastic support DPS, thats what all my vcr clears are on. Zen DK’s are typically wanted in every group cuz its easier to offload it so the healer can run Roaring Opportunist

Sure they don’t pump out high numbers but thats not really the point of the class, its to pump up everyone elses dps

Just feels like the class shouldn't be forced into being a "support" DPS, it should be capable of pulling the same numbers as everyone else. When DK is the worst healer in the game and also has poor DPS, there's really only one role you can take it on, which gives rise to this notion that they somehow make amazing tanks and therefore don't need buffs.

DK has the worst sustain of any class, with the worst healing of any class, consistently pulls less DPS than other classes even with Vateshran daggers, and is the only class without a heal scaling off Max HP. There's no reason for GDB to scale off missing health, and no reason for the class to be the only one restricted to melee when we don't actually gain anything from being restricted to melee. There is zero compensation being given for DK being in such a terrible spot. It needs attention.

I’d prefer the sustain to be better but i sustain fine with fish bowl in actual content, zen has mag recovery on it and elf bane also helps a bit. Even while parsing its fine with parse food

Been in vcr progging it for months using fish bowl and don’t really need to heavy attack, and i’m a high elf

Sangwyne

AuraStorm43 wrote: »

I’d prefer the sustain to be better but i sustain fine with fish bowl in actual content, zen has mag recovery on it and elf bane also helps a bit. Even while parsing its fine with parse food

Been in vcr progging it for months using fish bowl and don’t really need to heavy attack, and i’m a high elf

The point is, other classes don't need to run parse food and sets that grant recovery or extend the duration of their abilities. DK is forced into specific, niche sets with lower effective damage output just to resolve their sustain issue. It's trading one issue for another; sure you fixed sustain but now damage is borked.

DK's sustain is horrendous, it needs to be addressed. Easily the worst of any class. We have more votes for the extremely coveted title of "absolute worst sustain" than every other class combined. I don't want that title.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563487/pve-what-class-got-the-worst-sustain

AyaDark

PVE ?

Or PvDummy ?

I play just fine.

In PVE not PvDummy.

Protossyder

SonOfSoma wrote: »

(...) It nears the bottom of dps... it struggles with sustain.. (...)

What you're talking about are a few percent on the raiddummy, did you take Encratis or atro synergies into account? I also struggle with magicka sustain, but only at the dummy, never when raiding.
I also don't see the downside of having to use Z'en or being melee, it allows me to stay on the main boss and forces others to play mechanics

The Magdk is awesome and adds great utility to the group.

GreenHere

Protossyder wrote: »

SonOfSoma wrote: »

(...) It nears the bottom of dps... it struggles with sustain.. (...)

What you're talking about are a few percent on the raiddummy, did you take Encratis or atro synergies into account? I also struggle with magicka sustain, but only at the dummy, never when raiding.
I also don't see the downside of having to use Z'en or being melee, it allows me to stay on the main boss and forces others to play mechanics

The Magdk is awesome and adds great utility to the group.

I believe the overall point others are making about that is that they don't like feeling pigeonholed into being the designated "You're only good for XX debuffs & whatnot, so fill this specific role or we don't need you!" person in an organized group composition, which is a pretty understandable complaint tbh. Sure, there are upsides to playing MagDK the way others want you to, as you said, but "Wouldn't it be nice if our class was strong enough that we had the freedom to build differently and still be worthy of other spots in the group?" is a pretty fair argument.



That said, I still stand by my above posts that say that specific issue is mostly a problem with players being too rigid in their requirements and too self-limiting in their beliefs. I'm not really in the scene anymore, so I guess I can't say for certain that it's doable in modern Trials, but back in the day I was in groups that would run vetHMs with goofy setups like "Werewolves ONLY night!" or "All MagSorcs, Max Pets!" and other off-meta shenanigans -- and we did totally fine. It was fun, and not nearly as impossible or impractical as people told us it would be. If your group knows mechanics and performs decently (not even flawlessly most the time, just decently), you could get away with a lot more shenanigans than folks seem to think.

I would not be at all surprised if a 12-man "All MagDKs" group could clear every vetHM Trial in the game with relative ease. Everyone just needs to know what they're doing and be at least 80% on their game that night.

There's a very self-limiting attitude of "that's not viable" going around in the endgame community these days and (unless the Trials have drastically changed since the olden days of yore) I think people are mostly putting themselves in that box. Outside of competing for leaderboard placement, there's a lot of freedom in simply getting things done last I checked. Which, admittedly, was a while ago; but still. Everyone keeps going on about power creep and whatnot, so it seems to me that little has really changed.


Definitely wouldn't say no to some DK buffs, though! ;P

BXR_Lonestar

SonOfSoma wrote: »

Ok...

So I've played MagDK from the off and I think the most important question is: Why has this class been so abused by the developers?
Why is this amazing class constantly subjected to nerf upon nerf?

It nears the bottom of dps... it struggles with sustain..

I remember, just one, solitary patch MagDK was sweet...

I wonder why the devs continually hate and destroy such an awesome class...
Is it because of PVP???

Please.. just give me back my first love.

I feel your pain, as my favorite class (templar) has been nerfed to be a shell of their former selves, but is it really all that bad for magdk's? I have three players in my group who play Magdk's and they all melt stuff. Like, REALLY melt stuff. The only downside is that they're all super-squishy and heavily reliant on their tanks and healers to keep them alive when the tish hits the fan. Is it that you have built for more survivability at the cost of DPS?