Champion System Changes

Zekvyrin

I don't know why isn't there an "official" thread, but there should be one.

In response to the feedback that there is still too much vertical progression in the Champion Point system, we have further reduced the maximum number of stages for passive stars (non-slotted) available. This will lower the vertical progression cap to 1560 rather than 2100 in the Warfare tree, and 1626 rather than 2352 in the Fitness tree. This will reduce the maximum power of the Champion Point system as well.

Based on what is written here and only that, zos is saying that they addressed an issue noone complained about (in order to fix something reasonable).

Issue: Too many CP are needed to minmax.
Not an issue: Total power of the CP system.

Basically people complained that in order to minmax you need over 2000 points, which indeed it is an issue. Lowering the amount of CP needed to reach "max" was indeed a correct move (although I grinded what I needed, I really wouldn't mind other people getting there with less "effort").


I could understand & see positevely changes that "raise the floor" instead of "lowering the ceiling" (except if "ceiling" is broken for some reason, like thrassian, but your reasoning doesn't suggest that). And with the "powercreep" in some cases some balance changes are needed. That's understandable, but afaik, that is not the case here at all.


But.. Zos could easily keep the system in the same power, by making each "stage 2" have the same total bonus as "old stage 3/4/5" (whatever was needed for max) - like what was done in preparation. Why isn't this the case?

People actually "lost" a little power (both dmg & mitigation) from the changes CP system next patch, and basically gained max health (and better sustain because we can use parsefood instead of bi-stat), but that was ok overall.


The communication/reasoning is also poor imho. If ceiling was too high an explaination covering that part was needed. Now basically zos is "blaming" the community for this change, which isn't true. Is like saying ​"don't complain more, they will nerf these more if you do".



And there are more issues for this changes, like penetration which heavily affects stam users (and I'm not an expert on that)

MasterWarrior

Yes I think this is too much of a change. Don't change total power, but instead they should just lessen the grind.

sirmaxelotb16_ESO

I totally agree.

Couldn't you have thought about the CP values you want before rolling out CP 2.0?
I know it is still possible to clear content with lower CP because I have both a high and a low CP account.
But reducing all passives by 50 % at once instead of introducing changes gradually feels really lazy and random.
It just causes unnecessary frustration in the community.

For example stamina damage dealers rely more on the penetration from CP then magicka damage dealers do. So it would be nice if there could be some compromise, that doesn't make it feel like you forgot about stamina again.

And I don't think additional slottables can make up for that loss, because you can only have 4 active per tree at a time.
Passives feel more rewarding, because they affect all parts of the game. Even if it is only by a negligible amount. And I don't feel the process of changing my CP slottables enjoyable. Especially not with that annoying 30 sec cooldown after changing.

Please reconsider this change.
I am playing this game for a long time and I want my CP to mean something.

ThoughtRaven

ZOS never uses a chisel where a sledgehammer will do.

ExoY

I also think, the announced changes will create a lot of frustration in the community.
Also why is there so official feedback thread for the campion point changes?

With the introduction of cp2.0 they said their goal is that people will still be able to do the same content as with cp 1.0,
and they did that balancing very well imo. After adjusting accordingly I basicly reach similar scores in trials.

So the decision to cut almost every passive in half they do work against their own goal.


New Constellation
As a main healer I was very excited to hear about new cp for healers.
However I was very disappointed to see, that it will only be slotable.
The most annoying part about this is imo the inconsistancy, compared with the other constellations.
DD's and Tanks got with their constellations some passives, but do Healers only get slotables?

I understand adding more slotables would fuel the vertical progression problematic

But I also feel it is a very poor choice to have all three currently available constellation in the warfare tree.

nadrokal

I made a new alt to see what the new tutorial was like, and applied my 1390-ish CP. The fact they cut the passives in half was jarring. I was able to pick the same things that I usually do, but I had CP left over and was looking for other things to pick. In the case of green and blue, at least, everything else I could take was a slottable. Meaning I could take it, but unless I wanted to micromanage which were active, I might as well have left the points unspent.

I know my CP level is higher than a lot of folks, while not being near the truly dedicated. I was just working at my own pace without excessive grinding, other than running as many master writs as I could while double experience was on. I may not have been able to see an increase in power every time I leveled up, but eventually, I'd accumulate enough CP to take a block of some passive or other. On the pts now, it feels like there's no point in bothering to level up, because there really isn't anything to spend those points on that will have an impact. It feels like leveling is pointless, that there is no more progression to be had.

What they really need to do is to give us 5 slottables per branch or give us more things that don't take a slot. As it is, when this goes live, my drive to actively play my CP alts is going to fade. What's the point when there isn't going to be any more meaningful progress.

ApostateHobo

nadrokal wrote: »

I made a new alt to see what the new tutorial was like, and applied my 1390-ish CP. The fact they cut the passives in half was jarring. I was able to pick the same things that I usually do, but I had CP left over and was looking for other things to pick. In the case of green and blue, at least, everything else I could take was a slottable. Meaning I could take it, but unless I wanted to micromanage which were active, I might as well have left the points unspent.

I know my CP level is higher than a lot of folks, while not being near the truly dedicated. I was just working at my own pace without excessive grinding, other than running as many master writs as I could while double experience was on. I may not have been able to see an increase in power every time I leveled up, but eventually, I'd accumulate enough CP to take a block of some passive or other. On the pts now, it feels like there's no point in bothering to level up, because there really isn't anything to spend those points on that will have an impact. It feels like leveling is pointless, that there is no more progression to be had.

What they really need to do is to give us 5 slottables per branch or give us more things that don't take a slot. As it is, when this goes live, my drive to actively play my CP alts is going to fade. What's the point when there isn't going to be any more meaningful progress.

So much this! They cut all passives in half, and we only get so many slots so what are they expecting us to put our points into? We're all going to either have loads of unspent points, or a bunch of slottables we can't use.

ExoY

Of course it is difficult to have a system that offers something to players with a lot of cp while also working for new players.
But I think there is a general flaw in their concept.

To prevent the vertical progression they seem to be so afraid of, they should introduce passive cp with no direct combat impact, especially in the warfare tree.

Things that people can spend their points on without getting direct benefit within the combat. E.g. something like the passives from the crafting tree, which reduced repair cost. (things that kinda have to do with warfare but at the same time dont increase your combat direct).

But those changes would require an entire overhaul of the newly released system. So it most likely wont happen.

Altruz

The CP rework was a mistake, and now it's even worse. CP grind is pointless, they ruined this system, a lot of possibilities are missing, and we are weaker...

nwilliams2107b16_ESO

Please don't implement this change, it's unnecessary and unwanted

Dalsinthus

I am really unhappy with these nerfs. CP 2.0 passives on live offer little benefit. They're cutting this in half to the point where there basically is no point. Hardy at 2% maxed? Come on. Why are they afraid to let us have nice things?

Additionally the reduced amount to cap out in vertical power undermines a key element of removing the CP cap. The ability to progress to 3600 cp should be a long term motivator to keep playing, keep developing, keep progressing. But with the CP system on the PTS one caps out early and we're back to there being virtually no point to progressing the system, both because the benefits are minimal and one caps out too quickly. It's an MMO, there should be incentives to continued play.

They listened to the loudest voices with this change and undermined what was a pretty cool system. It's just so disappointing.

twing1_

They shouldn't have reduced the number of stages, they should have reduced the number of champion points required to advance from one stage to the next. Ex/ instead of each stage being valued at 10 champion points, each stage should have been valued at 5 champion points.

That way the number of stages stays the same, the overall power stays the same, and the only thing that changes is the number of champion points required to hit the end of the vertical progression. Definition of lowering the ceiling, without touching anything else.

Dalsinthus

I hope they reconsider these changes. Cutting the amount needed to cap, I get the sentiment and although I don't agree I do think this is friendly for new players. But hacking the power by 50% for passives? That's a bummer.

marke1

Just my opinion but I would have liked to see the CP points as one large pool rather than 3 separate pools . We could then allocate how we want into the 3 trees , for example if you didnt have much use for green then those point could be put toward the other 2 trees . Would not have needed to cut back on anything then and gives better choice.

merpins

The complaint was: "It's too difficult to min-max due to the sheer number of CP you need to actually make a competitive build. Before CP 2 you could get by with 700CP, now you need 2000."

NOT "After getting nerfed into the ground, I still feel too strong. Can you nerf us some more, but also idek make it easier to min max."

Grimm_Cortex

Players never asked for a nerf !

Stop saying that ! They asked for a solution around the fact that they had to grind xp and level, out of the blue because you decide to change the CP system...

I still don't see any request from the players here !

ZOS decide to again nerf their game ... Why ? Because the top players seem to overperform ? Seriously !

Can you actually put someone who play the game in charge of deciding the direction of the game, not some sort of "product owner" that not understand "FUN" !

Lord_Nikon

Please revert this horrible change Zos. Please.

And/or consider a 5th slot.

Every player wants to feel rewarded in some way for playing the game and “leveling up” the more you hack at this new CP system with your axe the more players loose in that department.

Nobody wanted a nerf. Nobody asked for a nerf.
Players are going to have hundreds of points with nothing to spend them on.

Zekvyrin

To be fair, I don't find it an issue that people will have points to spent to nothing meaningful or that people (incl me) have grinded during double exp event and "spent hours doing so".

I only find as a major issue the (unexplained & unrequested) nerf as especially because a reasonable request was used as an "excuse".

And there are relatively easy ways to fix this: Either corrent the bonuses per stage (eg. Piercing should give 700 penetration per stage, 2 stages max) or reduce the CP points needed per stage (Piercing bonuses stay the same, 4 stages total, but now each stage needs 5 points instead of 10). Either of these are perfectly fine & perfectly reasonable.

Extra points was supposed to be "quality of life". For example if I had extra 50 blue points, I would have used them to an extra slottable, so I can slot backstabber in & out whenever needed/not needed (e.g. it's useless in sunspire).

Or if you're high enough cp you could have a character being both a DD & a healer (maybe even and a tank), without need to redistribute CPs.

Agalloch

twing1_ wrote: »

They shouldn't have reduced the number of stages, they should have reduced the number of champion points required to advance from one stage to the next. Ex/ instead of each stage being valued at 10 champion points, each stage should have been valued at 5 champion points.

That way the number of stages stays the same, the overall power stays the same, and the only thing that changes is the number of champion points required to hit the end of the vertical progression. Definition of lowering the ceiling, without touching anything else.

This!

They must let the current system that exists on live . They only should lower the xp and points needed to advance from one stage to the next. If they can't do this by lowering the pints required to advance , they simply can do this by lowering the xp required to advance.

What is in PTS right now is ....[Snip]. There is no point to use CP there. All is like NO CP.

I hope ZOS will listen to the community and those CP nerfs will not be implemented on live.

[Edited for minor profanity bypass]

Agalloch

We really need a mix between vertical and horizontal progression .

Right now PTS is like NO CP. What's the point to have possible 3600 CP ? What is the incentive? Almost 0. There is no motivation.