Disappointed Eveli sharp arrow seems to have lost her character arc :C

Wing

by the end of the orsinium questline she was slightly depressed and didnt know if she wanted to be a hero anymore, and seemed to need to do some soul searching.

(this was because she had a character arc over the course of the story that culminated in a major character plot point of having to kill some guards and the moral dilemma of good / correct =/= lawful)

this was a great arc and a good character, especially as it was just a side character and not the main focus, as in alot of ZOS writing character arcs are super heavy handed and obvious, to the point that the same character arc was used for the main NPC of the past two Expansions / narrative years.

that made Eveli slightly endearing, was a nice small (pun not intended) side character that did not overstay her welcome and had a real legitimate character arc that left her needing to go on a bit of soul searching to see what she wanted to do.

nice.

come prologue quest and that is gone, its like orsinium never happened. she is back to being the hyper over enthusiastic wood elf that she was at the start of orsinium, before any character development happened.

that was really sad to see, its like ZOS had no idea why the character grew on us in the first place.

i guess ill wait and see what happens to her, but i kind of wish they had just left her alone at this point and we never saw her again. time will tell, and maybe her experiences will crop up, but as of right now im left worried and disappointed.

SammyKhajit

Exactly! It was confusing talking to Eveli in the prologue, it’s like Orsinium never happened.

FluffWit

In ZOS world Orsinium never happened. Because you may be doing this prequel and dlc before you do Orsinium and they can't be bothered writing more then one or two lines different dialogue based on what you've previously done I the game.

Remember Sai "oh yeah idk what happened I just kinda woke up and I wasn't dead lol" Sahan?

FrancisCrawford

Our characters have died dozens if not hundreds of times each. One time was consequential but with effects that could be reversed. The other times were trivialities.

Compared to that, what's a little non-fatal bad continuity among friends?

Eirikir

I find her irritating my self. A ZoS knockoff Harley Quinn type.

ThoughtRaven

Eirikir wrote: »

I find her irritating my self. A ZoS knockoff Harley Quinn type.

Totally. There were no generically quirky characters with bubbly personalities before Harley Quinn. She was the first to do it.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Our characters have died dozens if not hundreds of times each. One time was consequential but with effects that could be reversed. The other times were trivialities.

Compared to that, what's a little non-fatal bad continuity among friends?

That's because the Vestige is functionally Immortal, there is a lore-reason you can revive on the spot.

Once upon a time the Vestige was killed by Mannimarco and was turned into a Semi-Daedric Entity and this was explored upon in the earliest quests, one quest in particular has you commit suicide to save a bunch of people trapped and another has the NPC actually point out they know what you are and how they cannot kill you on Mundus, when you get your soul back you do not lose your ability to reform and there is nothing suggesting the animus that allowed you to do so was removed.

With this non-linear story progression in later DLCs small little details like this are often ignored for the sake of plot which leads to quite a lot of Plot Induced Stupidity where the player character somehow forgets what they are capable of, this would be like the Last Dragonborn forgetting they can shout.

Faulgor

Sigh. I really wanted to see Eveli back because of her character arc. She is one of the few characters who actually have one!

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I don't know what happened, but most stuff after Orsinium has been thoroughly disappointing for me in the writing derpartment (except for CWC and Murkmire, I think).

What a miss.

Wing

Faulgor wrote: »

Sigh. I really wanted to see Eveli back because of her character arc. She is one of the few characters who actually have one!

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I don't know what happened, but most stuff after Orsinium has been thoroughly disappointing for me in the writing derpartment (except for CWC and Murkmire, I think).

What a miss.

now that you mention it a tend to agree completely, the smaller DLC's have tended to have far more interesting stories.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Our characters have died dozens if not hundreds of times each. One time was consequential but with effects that could be reversed. The other times were trivialities.

Compared to that, what's a little non-fatal bad continuity among friends?

That's because the Vestige is functionally Immortal, there is a lore-reason you can revive on the spot.

Once upon a time the Vestige was killed by Mannimarco and was turned into a Semi-Daedric Entity and this was explored upon in the earliest quests, one quest in particular has you commit suicide to save a bunch of people trapped and another has the NPC actually point out they know what you are and how they cannot kill you on Mundus, when you get your soul back you do not lose your ability to reform and there is nothing suggesting the animus that allowed you to do so was removed.

With this non-linear story progression in later DLCs small little details like this are often ignored for the sake of plot which leads to quite a lot of Plot Induced Stupidity where the player character somehow forgets what they are capable of, this would be like the Last Dragonborn forgetting they can shout.

i remember the one in auridon where you have to swear your soul to a soul gem and the dialogue to complete the ritual is akin to "lol sure" because your vestige knows it wont do anything.

even in orsinium itself you get killed at a point within the story because the vestige knows they can come back.

though to be honest i dont know how or why we still can after the events of the main quest. do we still have access to the animus? is it explained anywhere why we re form instantly rather then normal daedra needing a REALLY long time to re form?

this makes the vestige immortal of a fashion, and if they become a vampire can live forever if they already could not.

Zenzuki

Have you never been sad, or questioning or whatever in the past.... and are now no longer?

It's quite possible she did her "soul searching" and has grown from it or learned from it or whatever.

And now she's back to her old happy go lucky self (or a more grown version of it).


Did you want her to be sad and morose forever?

hcbigdogdoghc

We will never have character arcs or developments unless ZOS move past 2E 582 and the delusion of "everything can happen in any order"

Sengra

Zenzuki wrote: »

Have you never been sad, or questioning or whatever in the past.... and are now no longer?

It's quite possible she did her "soul searching" and has grown from it or learned from it or whatever.

And now she's back to her old happy go lucky self (or a more grown version of it).

If that's the case, then it must be shown ... it is a story, after all, not real life. Show, don't tell etc

Lugaldu

I'm absolutely not a fan of the hyperactive happy girly type. But I think there is a reason for Eveli being like this again, because now there will be a new character development arc. If she would be already more serious at the beginning of the story, then her development cannot be portrayed so well. Perhaps.

spartaxoxo

Sengra wrote: »

Zenzuki wrote: »

Have you never been sad, or questioning or whatever in the past.... and are now no longer?

It's quite possible she did her "soul searching" and has grown from it or learned from it or whatever.

And now she's back to her old happy go lucky self (or a more grown version of it).

If that's the case, then it must be shown ... it is a story, after all, not real life. Show, don't tell etc

Why does it need to be shown? It makes no sense for her entire personality to have changed rather than simply her perspective on life. Plucky is who she is as a person, and is separate from the way she views the world.

GreenHere

Zenzuki wrote: »

Have you never been sad, or questioning or whatever in the past.... and are now no longer?

It's quite possible she did her "soul searching" and has grown from it or learned from it or whatever.

And now she's back to her old happy go lucky self (or a more grown version of it).


Did you want her to be sad and morose forever?

Yeah, this was pretty close to my initial thoughts as well. Her experiences in Orsinium affected her mood and outlook, sure; but they didn't fundamentally alter her basic nature as a person. Being back to her default demeanor is exactly what I'd expect. She's a bit wiser and more complex internally, but being cheerful and adventurous is (apparently) just who she is. That's how I see it, anyhow.

That said, I'm also in the group of sticks-up-their-butts folks that have a hard time liking conspicuously happy people. lol
Her base personality initially turned me off of the character, but she grew on me over the course of her Orsinium arc. I'd personally prefer she didn't "go back to normal" or whatever, but it's what I'd assume would happen years(?) after prior adventures.

ThoughtRaven

Zenzuki wrote: »

Did you want her to be sad and morose forever?

For some people "character development" somehow means "forever frozen in whatever mental state they were in when I last saw them".

Faulgor

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sengra wrote: »

Zenzuki wrote: »

Have you never been sad, or questioning or whatever in the past.... and are now no longer?

It's quite possible she did her "soul searching" and has grown from it or learned from it or whatever.

And now she's back to her old happy go lucky self (or a more grown version of it).

If that's the case, then it must be shown ... it is a story, after all, not real life. Show, don't tell etc

Why does it need to be shown? It makes no sense for her entire personality to have changed rather than simply her perspective on life. Plucky is who she is as a person, and is separate from the way she views the world.

That makes no sense to me. Personalities change, and are not separate from "perspectives on life". The whole point of Eveli's arc in Orsinium was that in the context of adventuring, she did change. She faced the grim realities of a hero's work and the weight of consequences that made her reassess if adventuring was for her at all. Letting her jump right back into adventuring makes absolutely no sense from where we left her in Orsinium.

It doesn't matter if she's happy or sad or gloomy or whatever. Those are just moods. The inconsistency between her previous arc and her character in Blackwood is in her actions.

From

"If this is what it means to be a hero, I'm pretty sure I'm done with that dream.
I've had enough of death, of seeing my friends get hurt."
...
"I'm not sure. I might return to Valenwood, see my family. I'm kind of missing my loved ones after what we've been through."

To

"Oh, you know me! Always on the hunt for more excitement."
...
"Cracked acorns, you established adventurers don't understand. When you're starting out, it's hard to become recognized as a real hero. But that's what I want to be. Just like in the Investigator Vale and Green Hood stories!"

I'm not saying that inconsistency can't be bridged. Maybe she did have another change of heart, and realized that becoming a hero was too important to her to give up on that dream. But that's not what her dialogue says. Instead, she pretends like her arc never happened.

If you didn't see a friend in a while, and the last time you spoke they said they'd probably quit their accounting job and move back home after having lived through an unsettling ordeal, wouldn't you ask how that all turned out? And wouldn't you be surprised when they instead said "You know me, I want to be the best accountant there is!"?

Wing

Faulgor wrote: »

~snip~

completely agree.

there is a difference between being sad and getting over it, to being naive to how the world works and opening your eyes to how things really are, people grow.

the above quotes nail it right on the head, if you didnt know they were from the same person it would seem like it was quotes from two different people.

the second one ircs me and reminds me of a quote from the *adventures of brisco county jr.*
"you dont set out to make a reputation you do your job, and the reputation comes or it doesn't."

back on track she can be like her original self, but we should see growth from her experiences. she does not have to be brooding and depressed, thats not the point. the fact that she mentions wanting to be like the Hero Investigator Vale when she had previously realized that was a fairy tale and experienced what it was like to be a real hero. . .that growth is gone.

the only thing i can assume is we are in a pre orsinium timeline because of game mechanics and that just has not / will not happen.


on another note they need to do something about this btw, we need to advance by like an actual year every year because this "all of this happens in the same day" feeling is just silly.

SammyKhajit

Not sure why she’d be 100% chirpy. If this one carries an evil book that gives this one nightmares and hairballs, this one will be quivering like a scrib jelly

OutLaw_Nynx

Question for lore buffs—

Why is she in Black Drake Villa?

(Edit;
Just read the wiki)

VaranisArano

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

Question for lore buffs—

Why is she in Black Drake Villa?

According to her dialogue, Eveli was hired to recover the book.

"Hold on, why are you here? Were you hired, too? I told them I could handle it just fine."

"The people who hired me provided a map to a library under the mansion. My job is to find some book that the old owners hid down there."

Later, she explains she was hired by Farrul Lupus' agent: "A request. One Farrul Lupus from Riften wished to discuss an opportunity. Quite intriguing, I thought! So off I went. It was quite the secret affair. I never actually met the man, but my contact warned I should tell no one. Which, hmm …."

The Blackwood Prologue deals further with Farrul Lupus and what his part in the plot is.

OutLaw_Nynx

VaranisArano wrote: »

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

Question for lore buffs—

Why is she in Black Drake Villa?

According to her dialogue, Eveli was hired to recover the book.

"Hold on, why are you here? Were you hired, too? I told them I could handle it just fine."

"The people who hired me provided a map to a library under the mansion. My job is to find some book that the old owners hid down there."

Later, she explains she was hired by Farrul Lupus' agent: "A request. One Farrul Lupus from Riften wished to discuss an opportunity. Quite intriguing, I thought! So off I went. It was quite the secret affair. I never actually met the man, but my contact warned I should tell no one. Which, hmm …."

The Blackwood Prologue deals further with Farrul Lupus and what his part in the plot is.

Ah, thank you!

Avoranti

“I think the saddest people always try their hardest to make people happy because they know what it’s like to feel absolutely worthless and they don’t want anyone else to feel like that.” - R. Williams. RIP.

Faulgor

Man. I don't want to spoil anything, but I finished the Blackwood main quest on the test server earlier, and I'm more upset with her characterization than before.

I played with a template character so I don't know if her dialog is slightly different if you played Orsinium (Yffre I hope so), but there is one instance where you can actually ask her if she wants to continue being a hero or whether that business isn't too grim for her. I found her answer to be as unreflected and naive as the day I met her all those years ago at Merchant's Gate.
ZOS obviously realized Blackwood was a departure from her arc in Orsinium to include this dialog, but it feels more like a kick in the backside than an explanation.

People often describe Eveli as plucky or enthusiastic, but to me, she first and foremost always seemed like an Elf that took things to heart. Events affected her, good and bad. This not only made her appear more real and personable than other NPCs, it was also a good reflection for the player that things we commonly do in video games without a second thought (i.e. taking out guards) do deserve a second thought.

To me, the new Eveli feels like a Saturday morning cartoon character - ZOS was afraid that the kids watching might become too timid by learning the "wrong" lessons from her arc in Orsinium (be careful what you wish for, actions have consequences, etc), so went in the opposite direction to encourage the kids to be an all American bold and daring hero.

Don't be a cracked acorn! It's great to help people, don't 'cha know!?

master_vanargand

She must be living positively.

Wing

Faulgor wrote: »

Man. I don't want to spoil anything, but I finished the Blackwood main quest on the test server earlier, and I'm more upset with her characterization than before.

I played with a template character so I don't know if her dialog is slightly different if you played Orsinium (Yffre I hope so), but there is one instance where you can actually ask her if she wants to continue being a hero or whether that business isn't too grim for her. I found her answer to be as unreflected and naive as the day I met her all those years ago at Merchant's Gate.
ZOS obviously realized Blackwood was a departure from her arc in Orsinium to include this dialog, but it feels more like a kick in the backside than an explanation.

People often describe Eveli as plucky or enthusiastic, but to me, she first and foremost always seemed like an Elf that took things to heart. Events affected her, good and bad. This not only made her appear more real and personable than other NPCs, it was also a good reflection for the player that things we commonly do in video games without a second thought (i.e. taking out guards) do deserve a second thought.

To me, the new Eveli feels like a Saturday morning cartoon character - ZOS was afraid that the kids watching might become too timid by learning the "wrong" lessons from her arc in Orsinium (be careful what you wish for, actions have consequences, etc), so went in the opposite direction to encourage the kids to be an all American bold and daring hero.

Don't be a cracked acorn! It's great to help people, don't 'cha know!?

that is very disappointing to hear.

i wish they had just left her alone in orsinium.

LadyLethalla

Tbh I remember nothing of the Orsinium quest, at least in relation to Eveli, having played it, what 4-5 years ago. Guessing ZOS maybe thought that would be most people's experience.

spartaxoxo

Faulgor wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sengra wrote: »

Zenzuki wrote: »

Have you never been sad, or questioning or whatever in the past.... and are now no longer?

It's quite possible she did her "soul searching" and has grown from it or learned from it or whatever.

And now she's back to her old happy go lucky self (or a more grown version of it).

If that's the case, then it must be shown ... it is a story, after all, not real life. Show, don't tell etc

Why does it need to be shown? It makes no sense for her entire personality to have changed rather than simply her perspective on life. Plucky is who she is as a person, and is separate from the way she views the world.

That makes no sense to me. Personalities change, and are not separate from "perspectives on life".

Actually no, they don't. Your core personality tends to remain pretty stable, and what changes is your perspective on life. But it's rare for say an introvert to suddenly become an extrovert just because they decide they like being around people more. They tend to still express that in an introverted way, like maybe having small dinner parties instead of hosting ragers. It's not impossible and does happen, but it's actually not common.

In fiction, that's harder to demonstrate so characters core personalities tend to be fairly more one note than they are irl. But they do reflect this aspect still. A cheery personality would seldom become a gloomy one, but perhaps that characters will be less likely to do something reckless or whatever.

Eveli shouldn't still be tirelessly pursuing heroism, but she should definitely still be an upbeat personality because that's what makes Eveli, Eveli. She shouldn't be a stern and morose character.

Ashtaris

The thing that bothered me about the Prologue was that Eveli starts going on how Bazrag is in power and King Kurog is disposed of. I’m sorry, but I’m currently doing the Wrothgar quest line and I can assure you that Kurog is still in power and Bazrag is in hiding. The least they could do would be to shape Eveli’s prologue dialog around what is currently going on with your progress in Wrothgar. It really wouldn’t be that hard @ZOS_GinaBruno

Also, it’s a bit of a spoiler because you find out the final outcome of Bazrag/Kurog before you even finish the final Wrothgar quest.

Monte_Cristo

Wasn't she still happy at the end of Orsinium, depending on your choices?

Faulgor wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sengra wrote: »

Zenzuki wrote: »

Have

"If this is what it means to be a hero, I'm pretty sure I'm done with that dream.
I've had enough of death, of seeing my friends get hurt."
...
"I'm not sure. I might return to Valenwood, see my family. I'm kind of missing my loved ones after what we've been through."

I only got that once out of my 3 Orsinium playthroughs. Other 2 I got
"Did you hear? I'm going to stay here and help King Bazrag!
Still not sure what I'll be doing, but he mentioned forming an archery unit. I'll get my own squad! I'll have to think up a clever name. Something dashing!"
"I'm better. Much, actually.
Hey, I wanted to tell you that I forgive you. (don't know how to make a spoiler thing, so I left the rest of the quote out)

Monte_Cristo

I got her still happy on 2 of my 3 playthroughs.
"Did you hear? I'm going to stay here and help King Bazrag!
Still not sure what I'll be doing, but he mentioned forming an archery unit. I'll get my own squad! I'll have to think up a clever name. Something dashing!"
And "I'm better. Much, actually.
Hey, I wanted to tell you that I forgive you... I don't know what happened in there, but I know you save people." (left out spoilers)

Depends on your choice earlier.