New Tutorial - Not What We Were Asking For...

Tyrobag

The new game start is literally the opposite of what people were asking for when we said we wanted to choose where to start. We wanted to be able to play the old "Tutorials" (Aka the start of the game) for roleplaying purposes. This tutorial guarantees that we can't ever do that again. To make this clear: If I choose to start on Vvardenfell I should be on a ship, crash, get taken as a slave, get found by Naryu, and help her free the slaves. I should not see the start video (which ends by zooming in on the ship you're supposed to be in!!!) then just get plopped down in front of the census office.

Why would you lock away important story content where it can never be played again? It makes no sense and takes away key roleplaying aspects. Seeing as most of the "Tutorials" (Starts) start you off as a traveler anyway maybe you could at least give us a way to initiate it (Take a specific boat to Vvardenfell, or a Caravan to Elsweyr, etc.). Anything would be better than this decision to eliminate them entirely.

The tutorial itself is fine. Its what happens after, or really what doesn't happen, that is a problem.

@ZOS_GinaBruno - Could you please pass on that this change missed the mark?

Dark_Lord_Kuro

It could be made compatible tough
Make us do the tutorial in balfiera then we choose were to start wich instead of sending us to after the old tutorial it send us to a new non tutorial version of the event as our first quest

Elsonso

Yeah, it is very awkward being tossed into the zone with a different backstory than the NPCs are assuming.

When we leave the gate room... My preference would be that there be a non tutorial version of the tutorial area that we fight or.move through to end up at our ultimate destination.

Danikat

I agree.

I think the new tutorial is better than the previous approach of forcing us into a tutorial specific to the latest chapter and if the choice is between this or what we had before then I'll take this. Most importantly all it says about how you got there is you appeared through a portal, so it's left entirely open what you were doing before and how you ended up there, which gives a lot of freedom for writing your own backstory. For example maybe my sorcerer opened the portal himself experimenting with a spell he'd found, while my warden could have stumbled into it exploring a daedric cult and my nightblade thief may have accidentally activated an artefact he 'found' or someone's over zealous defences. It doesn't tie you into a specific location or series of events so it's not as restrictive for creating your own character and backstory. Likewise it lets you choose where you go after that so you don't have to come up with an excuse for abandoning whatever events you were forced into to go 1/2 way across the continent to where you actually wanted to be.

But it could be better and leading into the previous tutorials instead of just dropping you in the map would be a big step in the right direction.

Going into the base game maps is pretty weird because you just appear close to where you'd normally start and you're supposed to find an NPC who then immediately recruits you into helping with current events with no explanation for why they'd trust you to help (especially since all 3 are on edge about traitors) or why you'd have any incentive to help them. Even if they left in the bit from the original tutorial where they talk about having to rescue you from the ocean it would be an improvement. I'm also not sure what happens if you finish the starter island then do the quest that sends you to Coldharbour. I know it drops you in the same place but I'm not sure what you do from there if you've already done the island's main quest and don't therefore receive the prompt to move on to the next location, where you'll pick up the main story from the Prophet.

I'm also not sure how it works with Greymoor since without the tutorial or the precursor quest you've got no reason to head to Solitude to seek out the NPC who starts the main storyline and all your options in the early dialogue won't make any sense, but I've not tried that portal yet so I don't know how it's handled.

But overall if the goal is to reduce the narrative chaos resulting from being forced into a chapter-specific tutorial this is a step in the right direction but not quite getting there yet.

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

It could be made compatible tough
Make us do the tutorial in balfiera then we choose were to start wich instead of sending us to after the old tutorial it send us to a new non tutorial version of the event as our first quest

I think a simpler approach would be what they did with the Coldharbour tutorial - the events and most of the dialogue is still exactly the same but the tutorial aspects are taken out. For example when you fight the first daedra you're not frozen in place and made to light attack him, you can just kill him however you like.

I suspect that's less work for ZOS, removes the risk of players being disappointed by any changes made and makes it more like a normal quest than another tutorial.

ajkb78

Danikat wrote: »

I agree.

I think the new tutorial is better than the previous approach of forcing us into a tutorial specific to the latest chapter and if the choice is between this or what we had before then I'll take this. Most importantly all it says about how you got there is you appeared through a portal, so it's left entirely open what you were doing before and how you ended up there, which gives a lot of freedom for writing your own backstory. For example maybe my sorcerer opened the portal himself experimenting with a spell he'd found, while my warden could have stumbled into it exploring a daedric cult and my nightblade thief may have accidentally activated an artefact he 'found' or someone's over zealous defences. It doesn't tie you into a specific location or series of events so it's not as restrictive for creating your own character and backstory. Likewise it lets you choose where you go after that so you don't have to come up with an excuse for abandoning whatever events you were forced into to go 1/2 way across the continent to where you actually wanted to be.

But it could be better and leading into the previous tutorials instead of just dropping you in the map would be a big step in the right direction.

Going into the base game maps is pretty weird because you just appear close to where you'd normally start and you're supposed to find an NPC who then immediately recruits you into helping with current events with no explanation for why they'd trust you to help (especially since all 3 are on edge about traitors) or why you'd have any incentive to help them. Even if they left in the bit from the original tutorial where they talk about having to rescue you from the ocean it would be an improvement. I'm also not sure what happens if you finish the starter island then do the quest that sends you to Coldharbour. I know it drops you in the same place but I'm not sure what you do from there if you've already done the island's main quest and don't therefore receive the prompt to move on to the next location, where you'll pick up the main story from the Prophet.

I'm also not sure how it works with Greymoor since without the tutorial or the precursor quest you've got no reason to head to Solitude to seek out the NPC who starts the main storyline and all your options in the early dialogue won't make any sense, but I've not tried that portal yet so I don't know how it's handled.

But overall if the goal is to reduce the narrative chaos resulting from being forced into a chapter-specific tutorial this is a step in the right direction but not quite getting there yet.

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

It could be made compatible tough
Make us do the tutorial in balfiera then we choose were to start wich instead of sending us to after the old tutorial it send us to a new non tutorial version of the event as our first quest

I think a simpler approach would be what they did with the Coldharbour tutorial - the events and most of the dialogue is still exactly the same but the tutorial aspects are taken out. For example when you fight the first daedra you're not frozen in place and made to light attack him, you can just kill him however you like.

I suspect that's less work for ZOS, removes the risk of players being disappointed by any changes made and makes it more like a normal quest than another tutorial.

Even less work would just be to revert everything back to the original Coldharbour tutorial. It would be much more beneficial to new players, too. Delete all the chapter-specific tutorials, give all new players the Wailing Prison tutorial. On ESO facebook groups I see posts all the time from puzzled new players who've started in Vvardenfell or Elsweyr or wherever and have no idea where the real start of the story lies. This happened to me back in the day, I started in Vvardenfell and really had no idea what was going on for a good while, I completed several quest hubs before I died and realised I could respawn at these wayshrines in totally different parts of the world, I ended up at Davon's Watch and eventually found my way to the Benefactor and got started on the main Prophet questlines but it was extremely confusing for a new player and starts you off playing storylines in completely the wrong canonical sequence.

Danikat

I agree that starting everyone in Coldharbour would be the best choice since that's the logical starting point but since ZOS seem hell-bent on doing anything but that I'm assuming they're not going to be persuaded and trying to find ways to make what they want to do instead work for players.

LadySinflower

Since I'm on console I haven't seen the new tutorial. In the original start of the game, we were abducted and murdered, then put in a prison in Coldharbour. Lyris helped us escape with the Prophet and we came to Tamriel as the Vestige minus our soul. Does the new tutorial in any way tie in to that, or are we expected to just stumble in to whatever storyline the new expansion has?

Enodoc

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

It could be made compatible tough
Make us do the tutorial in balfiera then we choose were to start wich instead of sending us to after the old tutorial it send us to a new non tutorial version of the event as our first quest

Basically this. We know they can de-tutorialise a former tutorial, because that's what they did with Soul Shriven in Coldharbour. Choosing a portal should put you into the intro cinematic of whichever chapter, and then drop you into a version of the old tutorial quests with the actual tutorial aspects removed. Those quests are important to character introductions and the whole storyline, and should not be skipped. (Moreover, they need to be available to other characters so those characters can start the story from the actual beginning.)

Danikat

LadySinflower wrote: »

Since I'm on console I haven't seen the new tutorial. In the original start of the game, we were abducted and murdered, then put in a prison in Coldharbour. Lyris helped us escape with the Prophet and we came to Tamriel as the Vestige minus our soul. Does the new tutorial in any way tie in to that, or are we expected to just stumble in to whatever storyline the new expansion has?

The new tutorial doesn't directly tie into anything.

The short version of the story is you wake up in prison on the Isle of Balfiera, you're released and told you appeared through a portal at the same time a large daedra came through a different portal. You agree to help fight the daedra, find your way there and kill it, then you're given the choice of several portals to leave through, leading to the 3 base game starter islands and the chapter maps. Where you were before and what you're going to do after are left entirely ambiguous and aside from the fact that daedra are able to get into Nirn it doesn't refer directly to any storyline. You're told a bit about current events in each location, but it doesn't start the relevant quest.

I picked to go to Stros M'kai and ended up on the dock next to the Spearhead, with the quest marker pointing me to Kileen to start the islands main storyline. I've not had time to try any other locations but I think they take a similar approach of putting you close to an NPC who will start the main storyline for the map.

phantasmalD

Yeah, like the original Coldharbour intro was converted into a normal quest when it stopped being the default tutorial, I don't see why it's so hard to convert these old tutorials into an introductory quest.

Tho tbh the Coldharbour quest is another can of worms, it's still forced on you and cannot be abandoned. Like, why? Please let us decide for ourselves, thank you.
Also, it still puts you on a starter island at the end of the quest which is very messy if that's where you started your adventure. Especially as an EP character. You wake up next to the bed, but Bleakrock is already controlled by the Dominion and is presently in the process of burning down, so it makes zero sense.

Elsonso

It's almost like they need a Director of Game Continuity, someone that Lambert (Creative Director) would report to, that is in charge of the big picture.

Tyrobag

Enodoc wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

It could be made compatible tough
Make us do the tutorial in balfiera then we choose were to start wich instead of sending us to after the old tutorial it send us to a new non tutorial version of the event as our first quest

Basically this. We know they can de-tutorialise a former tutorial, because that's what they did with Soul Shriven in Coldharbour. Choosing a portal should put you into the intro cinematic of whichever chapter, and then drop you into a version of the old tutorial quests with the actual tutorial aspects removed. Those quests are important to character introductions and the whole storyline, and should not be skipped. (Moreover, they need to be available to other characters so those characters can start the story from the actual beginning.)

Honestly I don't even care that much whether or not they remove the training aspects. It'd be great if they did, but please, for the love of Seht, let us play the content instead of cutting out chunks of the story.

TempestM

Seriously? That's insane, I thought it was obvious to everyone that people wanted to be able to play a different prologue, not just pick a starting zone. How could they make whole new tutorial without realizing this?

Zyva

AGREED!!!! PLEASE!!! let us play the stories again!! i want to be able to get on the boat again in morrowind, i want to be able to do the temple in elsweyr...

and honestly, i want to be able to PLAY THESE QUESTS before each area OUTSIDE of having to make a new character even! i would be happy if they did to those quests, what they did to the one in coldharbor. I doubt that would ever happen, but it would be SO nice if going through and doing all the quests in the game on a new character.

Enodoc

phantasmalD wrote: »

Tho tbh the Coldharbour quest is another can of worms, it's still forced on you and cannot be abandoned. Like, why? Please let us decide for ourselves, thank you.

I think at this point they should remove the "Main Quest" category from that questline and just call it The Harborage questline. Removing the Main Quest category would mean they didn't auto-start and would make it possible to abandon them.

Also, it still puts you on a starter island at the end of the quest which is very messy if that's where you started your adventure. Especially as an EP character. You wake up next to the bed, but Bleakrock is already controlled by the Dominion and is presently in the process of burning down, so it makes zero sense.

Yeah this is true as well. There are two continuity solutions here I think - either the portal from Keywright's Gallery should take you to the starter city, and not the starter island, or the end of the Coldharbour tutorial should take you to the starter city and not the starter island. I'm torn on my actual preference between those because complete continuity doesn't quite work in either situation.

The most compatible for continuity would be for Keywright's Gallery to not offer all three Alliances, and to only offer Soul Shriven in Coldharbour.

Elsonso

Enodoc wrote: »

The most compatible for continuity would be for Keywright's Gallery to not offer all three Alliances, and to only offer Soul Shriven in Coldharbour.

That is true. If the character is not starting out in a Chapter setting, then it should start out in Wailing Prison before ending up in the proper alliance starting location.

It would also save them 2 gates in the gate room, extending the life of ESO by two years!

Spell-Slinger

I think they should give us the option which tutorial we want in the character creation screen. Provided we don't click skip tutorial, it should give us the option to play whichever tutorial we have unlocked, with Coldharbour being the default (since it makes the most sense for new players, as mentioned above). If you click "skip tutorial" it should put you on the starter island, as if you had just completed the Coldharbour tutorial.

Also, it should spawn us with the starter equipment of the tutorial we choose. The soul-shriven rags if we go to Coldharbour, the Morrowind torn slaver shirt if we go there, the generic clothes for the other ones. I don't like the thought of not being able to access those clothes anymore - RP? The Elsweyr 2h practice sword is already sorely missed.

danno8

ZoS, guys, I love you but this really is not that hard to get right...

Danikat

Enodoc wrote: »

The most compatible for continuity would be for Keywright's Gallery to not offer all three Alliances, and to only offer Soul Shriven in Coldharbour.

I agree that would be a good solution, except that it throws up it's own narrative roadblock.

If you're offered a choice between 5 portals, 4 of which take you to locations around Tamriel and 1 which leads to being murdered and imprisoned in Coldharbour why would you ever choose the 5th option?

I'm already feeling a bit guilty about wanting to put my characters through the new prologue -> starter city -> soulshriven quest approach because that would be a major string of bad luck. You inexplicably fall through a portal and wake up imprisoned on Balfiera, you're freed on the condition you fight a dangerous daedra, escape through another portal, agree to help another stranger and end up murdered in Coldharbour then have to escape from there as well. But at least that's just bad luck and not a deliberate choice.

Inval1d

Can be easily solved just by doing something like this. Everyone's happy.

Elsonso

Inval1d wrote: »

Can be easily solved just by doing something like this. Everyone's happy.

Everyone except ZOS, who would probably have to spend the next 6 months implementing it.

Garrick

I just played through the new tutorial. What a disappointment.

I was expecting this:
1. Create character
2. Do you want to do the standard tutorial? If yes, do that.
3. Choose your starting location in the portal room:
- Three Alliance War. The original Main Quest of ESO. If you are a new player you may prefer to start here. However, if you want to jump into new Chapter content please choose one of the other options
- Blackwood (The most recent Chapter)
- Greymoor
- Elsweyr
- Summerset
- Vvardenfell

If you pick one of the Chapters that has its own tutorial, you get a prompt asking if you want to do it.
It's a bit clunky if you want to do an old Chapter tutorial because you would go from a portal to being in a ship, or a prison cart, but I do not think the people who pick those tutorials would care. You do not have to do the tutorial twice, since you can skip the main tutorial and then elect to do the old DLC tutorial.

Note that everything exists to enable this, which is why I was expecting it. It also accommodates people who want to do the old Cold Harbor tutorial, so the people that would prefer to do that first are not losing out. And I understand that future Chapters will not have their own tutorials, that is covered simply by not having a tutorial prompt for those portals.

Edit: I just wanted to add, the main reason I was going to get Blackwood at launch was that I wanted to do Summerset and Elsweyr, which I have not done before, but I wanted to start new characters for each with the appropriate tutorial. I have never played the Summerset tutorial. I did the Elsweyr one once and it was really cool, with the dragon and such. Why can't we play these tutorials that have already been coded? I even went to the effort of downloading the PTS to check out how the new tutorial system works. And it doesn't.