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[Templar] Who can explain Rune Focus changes? Seems like a nerf.
Thuragan
✭✭✭
So it seems Rune Focus will still retain Major Resolve, but will lose it's 50% increase to granted resistances when standing in it, instead healing 4.5% of your Max Health / 1 sec, correct?
This seems like a huge nerf for PvP since resistances are much more desired, that extra healing will be barely noticeable in PvP.
Also, why did they add the extra 25% healing done on the Stamina morph? I don't get it.
Rune Focus WAS FINE. These changes seriously boggle my mind.
This seems like a huge nerf for PvP since resistances are much more desired, that extra healing will be barely noticeable in PvP.
Also, why did they add the extra 25% healing done on the Stamina morph? I don't get it.
Rune Focus WAS FINE. These changes seriously boggle my mind.
6
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twing1_✭✭✭✭This in most cases is a buff. The resistances it granted blocked about 4.5% of incoming damage, and now it heals for 4.5% of max health/sec. Unless you are taking 100% of your max health in damage every second (you aren't), then you are getting more out of the healing than you are the resistances.5 -
Thuragan✭✭✭This in most cases is a buff. The resistances it granted blocked about 4.5% of incoming damage, and now it heals for 4.5% of max health/sec. Unless you are taking 100% of your max health in damage every second (you aren't), then you are getting more out of the healing than you are the resistances.
You're forgetting of the healing reduction in PvP.1 -
tsaescishoeshiner✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yeah, it's definitely a buff. You're probably not gonna be standing still much in PvP, but the healing is as much a reason to do that as the armor was.
The biggest benefit of the healing, especially on the Stamina morph, is for tanks. Templar tanks notoriously lack crowd control and a health-percentage-based heal. This, and the Living Dark change, help Templar tanks quite a bit.PC-NA
in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner3 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭This in most cases is a buff. The resistances it granted blocked about 4.5% of incoming damage, and now it heals for 4.5% of max health/sec. Unless you are taking 100% of your max health in damage every second (you aren't), then you are getting more out of the healing than you are the resistances.
You're forgetting of the healing reduction in PvP.
Even in pvp you still aren't taking half of your health in damage per second, which is the break even point with the healing. It's a buff.3 -
Greasytengu✭✭✭✭✭This in most cases is a buff. The resistances it granted blocked about 4.5% of incoming damage, and now it heals for 4.5% of max health/sec. Unless you are taking 100% of your max health in damage every second (you aren't), then you are getting more out of the healing than you are the resistances.
You're forgetting of the healing reduction in PvP.
Even in pvp you still aren't taking half of your health in damage per second, which is the break even point with the healing. It's a buff.
Man you would be surprised.
You ever try to outheal the oils being poured on the ram? Ever try to siege when the enemy has coldfire ballistas and lancers hitting around you? Its not uncommon to see people drop from 30k+ health to 0 in less than a second.
" I nEeD HeAlInG!!! "7 -
Erelah✭✭✭✭Greasytengu wrote: »This in most cases is a buff. The resistances it granted blocked about 4.5% of incoming damage, and now it heals for 4.5% of max health/sec. Unless you are taking 100% of your max health in damage every second (you aren't), then you are getting more out of the healing than you are the resistances.
You're forgetting of the healing reduction in PvP.
Even in pvp you still aren't taking half of your health in damage per second, which is the break even point with the healing. It's a buff.
Man you would be surprised.
You ever try to outheal the oils being poured on the ram? Ever try to siege when the enemy has coldfire ballistas and lancers hitting around you? Its not uncommon to see people drop from 30k+ health to 0 in less than a second.
Because a cold fire ballista should kill people instantly. Being hit by the most powerful weapons should knock out players. Plus while I enjoy PVP the entire game design should not be based around it.4 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭Greasytengu wrote: »This in most cases is a buff. The resistances it granted blocked about 4.5% of incoming damage, and now it heals for 4.5% of max health/sec. Unless you are taking 100% of your max health in damage every second (you aren't), then you are getting more out of the healing than you are the resistances.
You're forgetting of the healing reduction in PvP.
Even in pvp you still aren't taking half of your health in damage per second, which is the break even point with the healing. It's a buff.
Man you would be surprised.
You ever try to outheal the oils being poured on the ram? Ever try to siege when the enemy has coldfire ballistas and lancers hitting around you? Its not uncommon to see people drop from 30k+ health to 0 in less than a second.
In these situations, neither the new rune's healing nor the old rune's resistances would save you.7 -
lolo_01b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Due to the way how armour mitigation is calculated, if you were close to the armour cap the buff would reduce incomming damage by 7-8%. So you trade 8% mitigation for a 2.25% max hp hot. I'm not convinced this is a buff.This in most cases is a buff. The resistances it granted blocked about 4.5% of incoming damage, and now it heals for 4.5% of max health/sec. Unless you are taking 100% of your max health in damage every second (you aren't), then you are getting more out of the healing than you are the resistances.10 -
Greasytengu✭✭✭✭✭Greasytengu wrote: »This in most cases is a buff. The resistances it granted blocked about 4.5% of incoming damage, and now it heals for 4.5% of max health/sec. Unless you are taking 100% of your max health in damage every second (you aren't), then you are getting more out of the healing than you are the resistances.
You're forgetting of the healing reduction in PvP.
Even in pvp you still aren't taking half of your health in damage per second, which is the break even point with the healing. It's a buff.
Man you would be surprised.
You ever try to outheal the oils being poured on the ram? Ever try to siege when the enemy has coldfire ballistas and lancers hitting around you? Its not uncommon to see people drop from 30k+ health to 0 in less than a second.
Because a cold fire ballista should kill people instantly. Being hit by the most powerful weapons should knock out players. Plus while I enjoy PVP the entire game design should not be based around it.
Ok so
#1: Op was specifically asking about the PVP ramification of the change.
#2: Templars already have plenty of sources of healing built into the class, its literally the one thing they dont need more of. Resistances were helpfull to both PVPers and PVE tanks.
Also coldfire siege is not meant to be an "I win" button. But you missed my point entirely. I see people drop from 100% to zero every night I PVP. You can and will take enough damage to kill you in between ticks of a heal you have running. Resistance might help you survive, the heal wont.Edited by Greasytengu on April 20, 2021 12:55AM" I nEeD HeAlInG!!! "5 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Greasytengu wrote: »Greasytengu wrote: »This in most cases is a buff. The resistances it granted blocked about 4.5% of incoming damage, and now it heals for 4.5% of max health/sec. Unless you are taking 100% of your max health in damage every second (you aren't), then you are getting more out of the healing than you are the resistances.
You're forgetting of the healing reduction in PvP.
Even in pvp you still aren't taking half of your health in damage per second, which is the break even point with the healing. It's a buff.
Man you would be surprised.
You ever try to outheal the oils being poured on the ram? Ever try to siege when the enemy has coldfire ballistas and lancers hitting around you? Its not uncommon to see people drop from 30k+ health to 0 in less than a second.
Because a cold fire ballista should kill people instantly. Being hit by the most powerful weapons should knock out players. Plus while I enjoy PVP the entire game design should not be based around it.
Ok so
#1: Op was specifically asking about the PVP ramification of the change.
#2: Templars already have plenty of sources of healing built into the class, its literally the one thing they dont need more of. Resistances were helpfull to both PVPers and PVE tanks.
Also coldfire siege is not meant to be an "I win" button. But you missed my point entirely. I see people drop from 100% to zero every night I PVP. You can and will take enough damage to kill you in between ticks of a heal you have running. Resistance might help you survive, the heal wont.
They do not have max health percentage-based healing yet. That is something that makes Wardens, DKs and Necros very tanky in PvP but also in PvE.
Surprise! This is actually a change intended for PvE! Templar tanks aren't very good in PvE. This change will make it easier for them to keep their health up in PvE which has been a long standing concern of Templar tanks. It doesn't fix all issues they have, and yes, tanks in PvE liked those extra resistances too. Personally I would be happier if they put more power into Living Dark's new heal and kept Rune Focus as it was (maybe keeping the sustain buffs though).
The reason the extra healing is on the stamina morph is because tanks prefer the stamina morph as it restores stamina even while blocking.
The last thing on the Templar tank wishlist is a group oriented damage buff that Templar healers or damage dealers can't provide. Depending on what form such a buff or debuff could take, this could be a buff to PvP templars as well.
Hope that could clear things up a bit.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.4 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »
Due to the way how armour mitigation is calculated, if you were close to the armour cap the buff would reduce incomming damage by 7-8%. So you trade 8% mitigation for a 2.25% max hp hot. I'm not convinced this is a buff.This in most cases is a buff. The resistances it granted blocked about 4.5% of incoming damage, and now it heals for 4.5% of max health/sec. Unless you are taking 100% of your max health in damage every second (you aren't), then you are getting more out of the healing than you are the resistances.
You are talking about relative damage, not tooltip damage. Even in those cases, however, the healing would likely help you more because typically with higher resistances comes higher max health.
Let's use a specific example.
30k resistances
30k max health
50k incoming tool tip damage/second
Old rune:
50k damage halved by battle spirit = 25k incoming, further halved by resistances (30k + 2974, let's be generous and round up to max) = 12.5k damage taken, no healing.
New rune:
50k incoming damage, halved by battle spirit = 25k, further reduced by 45% due to 30k resistances = 13,750 damage taken
Healing would be 4.5% of 30k = 1350, halved by battle spirit = 675
Net loss with the new rune = 13750 - 675 = 13,075 net damage taken.
So yes, in this extreme instance when you take 50k tool tip damage in one second, the resistances would save you 575 health. But you are not going to be taking 50k tooltip damage per second consistently, and as long as you survive the initial burst, standing in the new rune will help you out more, because the resistances only out weigh the healing when you are taking massive amounts of damage, but as long as you survive the initial burst, standing in the new rune for a few seconds will net you more health than the resistances would save you.4 -
Greasytengu✭✭✭✭✭Greasytengu wrote: »Greasytengu wrote: »This in most cases is a buff. The resistances it granted blocked about 4.5% of incoming damage, and now it heals for 4.5% of max health/sec. Unless you are taking 100% of your max health in damage every second (you aren't), then you are getting more out of the healing than you are the resistances.
You're forgetting of the healing reduction in PvP.
Even in pvp you still aren't taking half of your health in damage per second, which is the break even point with the healing. It's a buff.
Man you would be surprised.
You ever try to outheal the oils being poured on the ram? Ever try to siege when the enemy has coldfire ballistas and lancers hitting around you? Its not uncommon to see people drop from 30k+ health to 0 in less than a second.
Because a cold fire ballista should kill people instantly. Being hit by the most powerful weapons should knock out players. Plus while I enjoy PVP the entire game design should not be based around it.
Ok so
#1: Op was specifically asking about the PVP ramification of the change.
#2: Templars already have plenty of sources of healing built into the class, its literally the one thing they dont need more of. Resistances were helpfull to both PVPers and PVE tanks.
Also coldfire siege is not meant to be an "I win" button. But you missed my point entirely. I see people drop from 100% to zero every night I PVP. You can and will take enough damage to kill you in between ticks of a heal you have running. Resistance might help you survive, the heal wont.
They do not have max health percentage-based healing yet. That is something that makes Wardens, DKs and Necros very tanky in PvP but also in PvE.
Surprise! This is actually a change intended for PvE! Templar tanks aren't very good in PvE. This change will make it easier for them to keep their health up in PvE which has been a long standing concern of Templar tanks. It doesn't fix all issues they have, and yes, tanks in PvE liked those extra resistances too. Personally I would be happier if they put more power into Living Dark's new heal and kept Rune Focus as it was (maybe keeping the sustain buffs though).
The reason the extra healing is on the stamina morph is because tanks prefer the stamina morph as it restores stamina even while blocking.
The last thing on the Templar tank wishlist is a group oriented damage buff that Templar healers or damage dealers can't provide. Depending on what form such a buff or debuff could take, this could be a buff to PvP templars as well.
Hope that could clear things up a bit.
At this point it feels like they are cutting off a finger to give you a finger though. Why not add the Health based heal to rune focus and keep the resistances too.
Also I would argue that any class ability or change to one isn't "intended for PVE". Its a part of a templar's kit, its going to be used in both types of content, its not 'intended' for one or the other. And to bring up another point from before, OP was asking about the abilities performance in PVP, hence why its the focus of my answers.Edited by Greasytengu on April 20, 2021 1:48AM" I nEeD HeAlInG!!! "0 -
vgabor✭✭✭✭✭
✭So it seems Rune Focus will still retain Major Resolve, but will lose it's 50% increase to granted resistances when standing in it, instead healing 4.5% of your Max Health / 1 sec, correct?
This seems like a huge nerf for PvP since resistances are much more desired, that extra healing will be barely noticeable in PvP
Honestly, when you're just standing in one place in PvP? I don't think it matters which one you're net getting because you already moved away, this change if more for PvE tanks who are standing still and holding block...
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Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Greasytengu wrote: »Greasytengu wrote: »Greasytengu wrote: »This in most cases is a buff. The resistances it granted blocked about 4.5% of incoming damage, and now it heals for 4.5% of max health/sec. Unless you are taking 100% of your max health in damage every second (you aren't), then you are getting more out of the healing than you are the resistances.
You're forgetting of the healing reduction in PvP.
Even in pvp you still aren't taking half of your health in damage per second, which is the break even point with the healing. It's a buff.
Man you would be surprised.
You ever try to outheal the oils being poured on the ram? Ever try to siege when the enemy has coldfire ballistas and lancers hitting around you? Its not uncommon to see people drop from 30k+ health to 0 in less than a second.
Because a cold fire ballista should kill people instantly. Being hit by the most powerful weapons should knock out players. Plus while I enjoy PVP the entire game design should not be based around it.
Ok so
#1: Op was specifically asking about the PVP ramification of the change.
#2: Templars already have plenty of sources of healing built into the class, its literally the one thing they dont need more of. Resistances were helpfull to both PVPers and PVE tanks.
Also coldfire siege is not meant to be an "I win" button. But you missed my point entirely. I see people drop from 100% to zero every night I PVP. You can and will take enough damage to kill you in between ticks of a heal you have running. Resistance might help you survive, the heal wont.
They do not have max health percentage-based healing yet. That is something that makes Wardens, DKs and Necros very tanky in PvP but also in PvE.
Surprise! This is actually a change intended for PvE! Templar tanks aren't very good in PvE. This change will make it easier for them to keep their health up in PvE which has been a long standing concern of Templar tanks. It doesn't fix all issues they have, and yes, tanks in PvE liked those extra resistances too. Personally I would be happier if they put more power into Living Dark's new heal and kept Rune Focus as it was (maybe keeping the sustain buffs though).
The reason the extra healing is on the stamina morph is because tanks prefer the stamina morph as it restores stamina even while blocking.
The last thing on the Templar tank wishlist is a group oriented damage buff that Templar healers or damage dealers can't provide. Depending on what form such a buff or debuff could take, this could be a buff to PvP templars as well.
Hope that could clear things up a bit.
At this point it feels like they are cutting off a finger to give you a finger though. Why not add the Health based heal to rune focus and keep the resistances too.
Also I would argue that any class ability or change to one isn't "intended for PVE". Its a part of a templar's kit, its going to be used in both types of content, its not 'intended' for one or the other. And to bring up another point from before, OP was asking about the abilities performance in PVP, hence why its the focus of my answers.
I mean, if they did keep the resistance and the sustain and added the heal, I wouldn't complain.
And you are right about that other part. You can't really say something is "intended" for any type of content because it's always the same kit... but that's not how ZOS does balancing. They nerf things in both PvP and PvE because something is broken in only one. It's a glorious day when they manage to find a way to balance them separately.
But this right now is definitely a case of PvE wanting a buff and ZOS giving them pretty much exactly what they were asking for. I suggested Healing Ritual to be made into a percent-based heal, which didn't happen. I also suggested Living Dark to be changed that way and that did happen!
The problem remains. Tanking and PvP are very closely connected and they often influence each other balance-wise.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.0 -
lolo_01b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Go play a healer in group vs group pvp. I'm pretty sure incomming damage will exceed 50k tooltip quite frequently. Also keep in mind that resistances also reduce the damage to your barrier (or other shields) while healing usually is wasted in that moment.lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »
Due to the way how armour mitigation is calculated, if you were close to the armour cap the buff would reduce incomming damage by 7-8%. So you trade 8% mitigation for a 2.25% max hp hot. I'm not convinced this is a buff.This in most cases is a buff. The resistances it granted blocked about 4.5% of incoming damage, and now it heals for 4.5% of max health/sec. Unless you are taking 100% of your max health in damage every second (you aren't), then you are getting more out of the healing than you are the resistances.
You are talking about relative damage, not tooltip damage. Even in those cases, however, the healing would likely help you more because typically with higher resistances comes higher max health.
Let's use a specific example.
30k resistances
30k max health
50k incoming tool tip damage/second
Old rune:
50k damage halved by battle spirit = 25k incoming, further halved by resistances (30k + 2974, let's be generous and round up to max) = 12.5k damage taken, no healing.
New rune:
50k incoming damage, halved by battle spirit = 25k, further reduced by 45% due to 30k resistances = 13,750 damage taken
Healing would be 4.5% of 30k = 1350, halved by battle spirit = 675
Net loss with the new rune = 13750 - 675 = 13,075 net damage taken.
So yes, in this extreme instance when you take 50k tool tip damage in one second, the resistances would save you 575 health. But you are not going to be taking 50k tooltip damage per second consistently, and as long as you survive the initial burst, standing in the new rune will help you out more, because the resistances only out weigh the healing when you are taking massive amounts of damage, but as long as you survive the initial burst, standing in the new rune for a few seconds will net you more health than the resistances would save you.
But yeah, lets settle on: "Its a buff for pve tanks and solo pvp but a small nerf for some group pvp builds." (I mean to be honest, often you can't stand in your rune for long anyway).1 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I wish the healing effect persisted for like 3 seconds after leaving the rune.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler theres plenty of mobility in this game both pve and pvp, and asking us to stand in a tiny rune for extended periods of time is just not feasible.9 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭For PvE healing this is a nerf. Probably for PvE damage dealing too, if there are any templars who currently do that.
Why? Because the difference between "one-shotted" and "almost one-shotted" is central to the PvE endgame experience.2 -
MJallday✭✭✭✭✭
✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »For PvE healing this is a nerf. Probably for PvE damage dealing too, if there are any templars who currently do that.
Why? Because the difference between "one-shotted" and "almost one-shotted" is central to the PvE endgame experience.
Yeah this is basically a dealbreaker for a anyone attempting hard mode content on a Templar dd . They already have to cope
With less damage than other classes and now the surviving ability is removed, there’s literally no reason to play magplar DDs now2 -
Athan1✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Useful example, thanks for taking the time to explain this!lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »
Due to the way how armour mitigation is calculated, if you were close to the armour cap the buff would reduce incomming damage by 7-8%. So you trade 8% mitigation for a 2.25% max hp hot. I'm not convinced this is a buff.This in most cases is a buff. The resistances it granted blocked about 4.5% of incoming damage, and now it heals for 4.5% of max health/sec. Unless you are taking 100% of your max health in damage every second (you aren't), then you are getting more out of the healing than you are the resistances.
You are talking about relative damage, not tooltip damage. Even in those cases, however, the healing would likely help you more because typically with higher resistances comes higher max health.
Let's use a specific example.
30k resistances
30k max health
50k incoming tool tip damage/second
Old rune:
50k damage halved by battle spirit = 25k incoming, further halved by resistances (30k + 2974, let's be generous and round up to max) = 12.5k damage taken, no healing.
New rune:
50k incoming damage, halved by battle spirit = 25k, further reduced by 45% due to 30k resistances = 13,750 damage taken
Healing would be 4.5% of 30k = 1350, halved by battle spirit = 675
Net loss with the new rune = 13750 - 675 = 13,075 net damage taken.
So yes, in this extreme instance when you take 50k tool tip damage in one second, the resistances would save you 575 health. But you are not going to be taking 50k tooltip damage per second consistently, and as long as you survive the initial burst, standing in the new rune will help you out more, because the resistances only out weigh the healing when you are taking massive amounts of damage, but as long as you survive the initial burst, standing in the new rune for a few seconds will net you more health than the resistances would save you.Athan Atticus Imperial Templar of Shezarr0 -
stefj68✭✭✭✭✭well seems a nerf for me... for my pve stamplar and magplars... we have very low resist compare to tank, a little % healing instead of the resistance buff...
my stamplar was able to survive a few seconds inside the runes before dying if he was top on aggro, my magplars were staying alives... but now i feel magplar survibility will be like my stamplar, and my stamplar i will have to switch him to a tankplar, since a moskito bite will prolly one shot me!
i really feel they want to kills the stamplar and reduce the amout of magplars...
ritual of retribution nerf... main source of healing for my stamplar
now runes nerf... main source of resistance for my stamplar
gonna log on pts and test it later but defenitively sound like i will have to switch to tank
rip stamplar
Edited by stefj68 on April 21, 2021 3:11AM0 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭well seems a nerf for me... for my pve stamplar and magplars... we have very low resist compare to tank, a little % healing instead of the resistance buff...
my stamplar was able to survive a few seconds inside the runes before dying if he was top on aggro, my magplars were staying alives... but now i feel magplar survibility will be like my stamplar, and my stamplar i will have to switch him to a tankplar, since a moskito bite will prolly one shot me!
i really feel they want to kills the stamplar and reduce the amout of magplars...
ritual of retribution nerf... main source of healing for my stamplar
now runes nerf... main source of resistance for my stamplar
gonna log on pts and test it later but defenitively sound like i will have to switch to tank
rip stamplar
The extra rune resistances was your main source of resistance? If 2974 resistances make up the majority of your resistances, you have bigger problems that need to be addressed.0 -
stefj68✭✭✭✭✭well seems a nerf for me... for my pve stamplar and magplars... we have very low resist compare to tank, a little % healing instead of the resistance buff...
my stamplar was able to survive a few seconds inside the runes before dying if he was top on aggro, my magplars were staying alives... but now i feel magplar survibility will be like my stamplar, and my stamplar i will have to switch him to a tankplar, since a moskito bite will prolly one shot me!
i really feel they want to kills the stamplar and reduce the amout of magplars...
ritual of retribution nerf... main source of healing for my stamplar
now runes nerf... main source of resistance for my stamplar
gonna log on pts and test it later but defenitively sound like i will have to switch to tank
rip stamplar
The extra rune resistances was your main source of resistance? If 2974 resistances make up the majority of your resistances, you have bigger problems that need to be addressed.
well for me its 5948resist on pve
don't forget when they change the cp system i lost near 5k spell resist and 3k physical resist... add that on top of that 6k resist... anyone could 1 shot the stamplar now
Edited by stefj68 on April 21, 2021 4:06AM0 -
BalticBlues✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This is HUGE NERF for People wearing LIGHT ARMOR, especially HEALERS.
Light Armor Healers REALLY DO NOT NEED MORE HEALING, they NEED PROTECTION.
ZOS, please KEEP RUNE BONUSES USEFUL FOR ALL ROLES, not just TANKS.
Edited by BalticBlues on April 21, 2021 7:38AM0