keep the proc changes in pvp, leave pve out

tripp

There is no reason for them to apply in PvE. You're going to make tanks and healers suffer in particular. 38350 is an absurd amount of resource to reach.

Starlock

Not just tanks and healers.

This is a kick to the face for any player who isn't a bloody min-maxer. I can't imagine they don't have the data to know this.

VaranisArano

ZOS says: "The effect we expect from this will be an overall buff in PVE territory as many players build for maximum efficiency regarding their stats."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/569953/update-30-combat-preview/p7

That being said, if it is a nerf for PVE, I'd like to remind everyone that the CP 2.0 FAQ included this gem. "The overall goal was to reduce the power of high end damage and efficiency by 15-20% with CP 2.0, as there is a significant delta in power between many players. However, due to the penetration bug we saw on LIVE and PTS, we didn't fully reach that goal, and will continue investigating solutions, such as potentially reducing passive power from the CP system further, as well as looking into more outlying problems."

So ZOS was already planning further nerfs to PVE. Please, remember that if you blame PVP.

Sangwyne

RIP Alkosh. First 3000 Weapon/Spell damage to maximize the penetration and now 5478. Good thing we have all those other great Tank/Healer sets to fall back on, like... oh, right.

penguin_zombies

I am just baffled how they claimed this would be a buff for PvE. This feels like a huge nerf to the overwhelming majority of the PvE playerbase. Does "overall buff in PvE territory" just mean "a buff to the extreme minority of players who min-max"?

Starlock

penguin_zombies wrote: »

I am just baffled how they claimed this would be a buff for PvE. This feels like a huge nerf to the overwhelming majority of the PvE playerbase. Does "overall buff in PvE territory" just mean "a buff to the extreme minority of players who min-max"?

Basically, it looks that way. How severe this is will depend on where the scaling starts and whether or not it is linear.

Say, for example that Thunderbug's Carapace has a 5k damage tooltip at present. Let's also assume the scaling is linear, since I doubt they would do a curved or exponential scaling here. Then we can wonder - at what spell damage does this set do zero damage, if at all? Or is there a certain minimum damage value and the scaling goes from there?

If at zero spell damage the set does zero damage and scales linearly, players like me who basically never hit above 4k spell damage will have only 70% of the set's power, at best. This means the proc is now doing 3.5k damage at best (less after we factor in resists). So we're looking at a 30-40% reduction in the power of our damage sets. That's... that's massive. Especially since these sets are part of what help level non-min/max players with those who do. If, on the other hand, at zero spell damage the set still does some set value of damage, say, 2k? Things will look less awful for us non-min/maxers out there. I'm skeptical that's how it is going to work, though.

Wuuffyy

I second the OP

Gilvoth

Horrible idea and i hope it does not happen.

Merforum

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS says: "The effect we expect from this will be an overall buff in PVE territory as many players build for maximum efficiency regarding their stats."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/569953/update-30-combat-preview/p7

That being said, if it is a nerf for PVE, I'd like to remind everyone that the CP 2.0 FAQ included this gem. "The overall goal was to reduce the power of high end damage and efficiency by 15-20% with CP 2.0, as there is a significant delta in power between many players. However, due to the penetration bug we saw on LIVE and PTS, we didn't fully reach that goal, and will continue investigating solutions, such as potentially reducing passive power from the CP system further, as well as looking into more outlying problems."

So ZOS was already planning further nerfs to PVE. Please, remember that if you blame PVP.

These are 2 great quotes and absolutely the opposite. These proposed changes to proc sets will make the NON min/maxxers who actually like to use the proc sets way less useful. But if used by a min/maxer to be even better, effectively doing just the opposite of the second quote by widening the DPS gap even further.

GrimTheReaper45

its also a lot harder to build for spell damage on mag dps than it is to build for weapon damage on stam dps. meaning going forward all proc sets will be more beneficial to stam than mag dps

Wandering_Immigrant

Merforum wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS says: "The effect we expect from this will be an overall buff in PVE territory as many players build for maximum efficiency regarding their stats."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/569953/update-30-combat-preview/p7

That being said, if it is a nerf for PVE, I'd like to remind everyone that the CP 2.0 FAQ included this gem. "The overall goal was to reduce the power of high end damage and efficiency by 15-20% with CP 2.0, as there is a significant delta in power between many players. However, due to the penetration bug we saw on LIVE and PTS, we didn't fully reach that goal, and will continue investigating solutions, such as potentially reducing passive power from the CP system further, as well as looking into more outlying problems."

So ZOS was already planning further nerfs to PVE. Please, remember that if you blame PVP.

These are 2 great quotes and absolutely the opposite. These proposed changes to proc sets will make the NON min/maxxers who actually like to use the proc sets way less useful. But if used by a min/maxer to be even better, effectively doing just the opposite of the second quote by widening the DPS gap even further.

Well, keep in mind that min/maxxers tend to build for crit, and proc sets still don't crit. So while in a theoretical vacuum a min/maxxer would get more out of a proc set than a casual player, in practice min/maxxers should still get more out of a high crit build with a proper rotation than they would by replacing thier crit sets with proc sets. And so it should still be the casuals benefiting more from these changes.

Starlock

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS says: "The effect we expect from this will be an overall buff in PVE territory as many players build for maximum efficiency regarding their stats."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/569953/update-30-combat-preview/p7

That being said, if it is a nerf for PVE, I'd like to remind everyone that the CP 2.0 FAQ included this gem. "The overall goal was to reduce the power of high end damage and efficiency by 15-20% with CP 2.0, as there is a significant delta in power between many players. However, due to the penetration bug we saw on LIVE and PTS, we didn't fully reach that goal, and will continue investigating solutions, such as potentially reducing passive power from the CP system further, as well as looking into more outlying problems."

So ZOS was already planning further nerfs to PVE. Please, remember that if you blame PVP.

These are 2 great quotes and absolutely the opposite. These proposed changes to proc sets will make the NON min/maxxers who actually like to use the proc sets way less useful. But if used by a min/maxer to be even better, effectively doing just the opposite of the second quote by widening the DPS gap even further.

Well, keep in mind that min/maxxers tend to build for crit, and proc sets still don't crit. So while in a theoretical vacuum a min/maxxer would get more out of a proc set than a casual player, in practice min/maxxers should still get more out of a high crit build with a proper rotation than they would by replacing thier crit sets with proc sets. And so it should still be the casuals benefiting more from these changes.

Somewhere in the ballpark of a 30-40% reduction to the present power of proc sets for those who aren't min/maxers is... the exact opposite of "benefiting more from these changes."

Merforum

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS says: "The effect we expect from this will be an overall buff in PVE territory as many players build for maximum efficiency regarding their stats."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/569953/update-30-combat-preview/p7

That being said, if it is a nerf for PVE, I'd like to remind everyone that the CP 2.0 FAQ included this gem. "The overall goal was to reduce the power of high end damage and efficiency by 15-20% with CP 2.0, as there is a significant delta in power between many players. However, due to the penetration bug we saw on LIVE and PTS, we didn't fully reach that goal, and will continue investigating solutions, such as potentially reducing passive power from the CP system further, as well as looking into more outlying problems."

So ZOS was already planning further nerfs to PVE. Please, remember that if you blame PVP.

These are 2 great quotes and absolutely the opposite. These proposed changes to proc sets will make the NON min/maxxers who actually like to use the proc sets way less useful. But if used by a min/maxer to be even better, effectively doing just the opposite of the second quote by widening the DPS gap even further.

Well, keep in mind that min/maxxers tend to build for crit, and proc sets still don't crit. So while in a theoretical vacuum a min/maxxer would get more out of a proc set than a casual player, in practice min/maxxers should still get more out of a high crit build with a proper rotation than they would by replacing thier crit sets with proc sets. And so it should still be the casuals benefiting more from these changes.

Exactly, I am not saying that PVE min maxxers would start using proc sets, just the opposite that it is a stupid justification by ZOS that 5.5K dmg is a reasonable level to make these sets usable again. Which NO ONE is going to do. So they have ruined ALL those sets for PVE.

But for PVP, I am sure at least one person is going to find a way to make some of these sets work, which will make them even more powerful, defeating the whole purpose once again.

The biggest problem I see with this, is the hybrid/solo builds that people are fun and interesting are being completely gutted and my SAP tank/healerDPS type builds will take a hit. That being said if the companions can fill that gap and not just make the game harder to micromanage, that might be even more fun in the end.

Wandering_Immigrant

Starlock wrote: »

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS says: "The effect we expect from this will be an overall buff in PVE territory as many players build for maximum efficiency regarding their stats."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/569953/update-30-combat-preview/p7

That being said, if it is a nerf for PVE, I'd like to remind everyone that the CP 2.0 FAQ included this gem. "The overall goal was to reduce the power of high end damage and efficiency by 15-20% with CP 2.0, as there is a significant delta in power between many players. However, due to the penetration bug we saw on LIVE and PTS, we didn't fully reach that goal, and will continue investigating solutions, such as potentially reducing passive power from the CP system further, as well as looking into more outlying problems."

So ZOS was already planning further nerfs to PVE. Please, remember that if you blame PVP.

These are 2 great quotes and absolutely the opposite. These proposed changes to proc sets will make the NON min/maxxers who actually like to use the proc sets way less useful. But if used by a min/maxer to be even better, effectively doing just the opposite of the second quote by widening the DPS gap even further.

Well, keep in mind that min/maxxers tend to build for crit, and proc sets still don't crit. So while in a theoretical vacuum a min/maxxer would get more out of a proc set than a casual player, in practice min/maxxers should still get more out of a high crit build with a proper rotation than they would by replacing thier crit sets with proc sets. And so it should still be the casuals benefiting more from these changes.

Somewhere in the ballpark of a 30-40% reduction to the present power of proc sets for those who aren't min/maxers is... the exact opposite of "benefiting more from these changes."

Well, not necessarily benefiting from "the changes", but benefiting from proc sets.

It all depends a lot on how steeply it's scaled. If hitting 4500 weapon damage, which isn't hard even without really min/maxing can get you anywhere near say 80-90% of thier current numbers then you're still benefitting from proc sets. If hitting 4500 barely breaks 50% of thier current power then yes I could see an issue where proc sets no longer benefit the people they're intended to help.

tripp

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

It all depends a lot on how steeply it's scaled. If hitting 4500 weapon damage, which isn't hard even without really min/maxing can get you anywhere near say 80-90% of thier current numbers then you're still benefitting from proc sets. If hitting 4500 barely breaks 50% of thier current power then yes I could see an issue where proc sets no longer benefit the people they're intended to help.

I wouldn't be surprised if the missing difference (like having 30k resource vs 38k required) removes that much from the 5 piece bonus to homogenize the builds completely, effectively removing the "play what you want" aspect of the game, even in solo adventures.
I have two homemade main frost tanks whose entire shtick is having damage shields that keep refreshing themselves. One of these sets is a damaging type, one is healing, one is tanking. I'm sitting at 30k hp, 20k stam, 35k hp mag and 30k resistance, so I'm very likely to get shafted on all fronts, rendering ALL sets completely unusable, despite them being as off-meta for tanks as it gets. My fun is getting thrown out of the window.
Because pvp players cried wolf about their kills in Cyro.

AyaDark

With such changes - game will become full random adn unplayable in 1-2 years

Tharonil

Like

penguin_zombies wrote: »

I am just baffled how they claimed this would be a buff for PvE. This feels like a huge nerf to the overwhelming majority of the PvE playerbase. Does "overall buff in PvE territory" just mean "a buff to the extreme minority of players who min-max"?

This is so true. I'm playing solo pve, so nobody should bother if i can kill a rat with 5 or 8 hits.

I have a dd set which is not famous (savage werewolf). Also i don't have a second full set, because I need my pale order ring.

It's not possible for me to keep my damage after this changes without cutting my survivability.

But why are glass canon players even getting stronger with over 5xxx weapon damage?
I though they make this change because some players already are too strong.

colossalvoids

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS says: "The effect we expect from this will be an overall buff in PVE territory as many players build for maximum efficiency regarding their stats."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/569953/update-30-combat-preview/p7

That being said, if it is a nerf for PVE, I'd like to remind everyone that the CP 2.0 FAQ included this gem. "The overall goal was to reduce the power of high end damage and efficiency by 15-20% with CP 2.0, as there is a significant delta in power between many players. However, due to the penetration bug we saw on LIVE and PTS, we didn't fully reach that goal, and will continue investigating solutions, such as potentially reducing passive power from the CP system further, as well as looking into more outlying problems."

So ZOS was already planning further nerfs to PVE. Please, remember that if you blame PVP.

I like how their line if thinking goes both ways always, like there is two persons behind all of this but they never actually talked to each other. We need to reduce top players power making cp meaningless again and also pretty weak so low cp players have no incentive to gain points but we'll buff proc sets for top end pve groups and gankers to counter it. Lovely.

DreadDaedroth

Why taking the fun out?
The caps are too high and all the sets i used to help with my pve tank DPS will be useless.

Kurat

Proc sets were never good in pve. Now it's even less reason to use them. Stam dps already uses 2 different monster pieces to get 1st crit bonus, next patch it will be meta for mag also.
Dps will not go down. Companions pick up the slack for solo players, the new mythic pants will be meta. Also the new tank set from the trial will give 100% major force uptime in optimized groups. So dps will go up, stop panicking.

Aektann

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

Why taking the fun out?
The caps are too high and all the sets i used to help with my pve tank DPS will be useless.

Tank shouldn't «DPS» in pvp pve or any content at all. Great change! Stop whining.

tripp

Aektann wrote: »

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

Why taking the fun out?
The caps are too high and all the sets i used to help with my pve tank DPS will be useless.

Tank shouldn't «DPS» in pvp pve or any content at all. Great change! Stop whining.

It's CLASSIFIED as a dps set. It doesn't actually do any meaningful damage. The proc pops a shield on crits and deals laughable damage like 1 m away from you. It's vital to my setup because the shield is constantly up.
You should stop blindly accepting whatever changes ZOS decides to make.

Brederode

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS says: "The effect we expect from this will be an overall buff in PVE territory as many players build for maximum efficiency regarding their stats."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/569953/update-30-combat-preview/p7

That being said, if it is a nerf for PVE, I'd like to remind everyone that the CP 2.0 FAQ included this gem. "The overall goal was to reduce the power of high end damage and efficiency by 15-20% with CP 2.0, as there is a significant delta in power between many players. However, due to the penetration bug we saw on LIVE and PTS, we didn't fully reach that goal, and will continue investigating solutions, such as potentially reducing passive power from the CP system further, as well as looking into more outlying problems."

So ZOS was already planning further nerfs to PVE. Please, remember that if you blame PVP.

I don’t understand how ZOS can say that the proc changes will be “an overall buff in PVE territory” with a straight face. Do they seriously think every PVE player is a min-maxer?

Most of the players I encounter play PVE casually from my experience while doing overland content, dungeons (veteran) and trials with randoms. I highly doubt most of them will even reach 5,478 Weapon or Spell Damage, or 38,350 Max Magicka or Stamina. The nerfs to blue (and red) champion point trees also don’t help. If anything these changes will just make min-maxers stronger while making more casual, weaker players even weaker. Which would be kinda ironic since they wanted to close the gap between strong and weak players before with the new CP 2.0...

Sangwyne

Aektann wrote: »

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

Why taking the fun out?
The caps are too high and all the sets i used to help with my pve tank DPS will be useless.

Tank shouldn't «DPS» in pvp pve or any content at all. Great change! Stop whining.

DPS shouldn't tank through damage in all content either, but all their healing scales off damage now... Ring of the Pale Order buffed, healing from Proc sets now scales with Stamina/Magicka, Vigor/Shields scaling off of offensive stats. I keep hearing how tanks shouldn't be allowed to deal damage but then see DPS tank through damage with so much healing you can't put a dent in them. How is that any different? Trick question, it's not; tired of people pretending to hate builds with both durability and damage only when someone else is playing them.

It's far past time for ZOS to start balancing PvE and PvP seperately, it gets old fast having all my fun PvE builds nerfed on the whims of PvP players who will literally never be content. We've seen that ZOS has the ability to balance through Battle Spirit, now we just need for them to actually do so.

hakan

Sangwyne wrote: »

Aektann wrote: »

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

Why taking the fun out?
The caps are too high and all the sets i used to help with my pve tank DPS will be useless.

Tank shouldn't «DPS» in pvp pve or any content at all. Great change! Stop whining.

DPS shouldn't tank through damage in all content either, but all their healing scales off damage now... Ring of the Pale Order buffed, healing from Proc sets now scales with Stamina/Magicka, Vigor/Shields scaling off of offensive stats. I keep hearing how tanks shouldn't be allowed to deal damage but then see DPS tank through damage with so much healing you can't put a dent in them. How is that any different? Trick question, it's not; tired of people pretending to hate builds with both durability and damage only when someone else is playing them.

It's far past time for ZOS to start balancing PvE and PvP seperately, it gets old fast having all my fun PvE builds nerfed on the whims of PvP players who will literally never be content. We've seen that ZOS has the ability to balance through Battle Spirit, now we just need for them to actually do so.

Maybe you should understand that they dont want pve to be easy regardless of pvp? which they also said.

MarioMario

Just some point:
- If you have > 5500 Weapon Dmg, procs will hit harder than now.
- Procs will benefits from minor/major courage and minor/major brutality/sorcery buffs
- Stackin WD on stamina is cheese this patch
- They put in a set that adds 458 WD and procs a physical dd (plus a dot if a enemy is under50%) on heavy attack
- Vatheshran 2h adds 190 wd

etc. etc.

This way, I can easily get 8k WD on a stamsorc and land a heavy attack proccing 2 sets and crystal fragment...

Worst than ever for PVP.