How much dps do you think the playerbase is doing?

Bobby_V_Rockit

Kwoung wrote: »

I mean, if you are doing less than 20k, you almost have to be actively working at not doing DPS, no?

Lol, that’s depressing. I’m cp1345, just spec’d into a stam sorc dunmer, relequen + kinra + slimecraw. Scored 19.7k dps on the 3mill dummy. Oof

Aaxc

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

I mean, if you are doing less than 20k, you almost have to be actively working at not doing DPS, no?

Lol, that’s depressing. I’m cp1345, just spec’d into a stam sorc dunmer, relequen + kinra + slimecraw. Scored 19.7k dps on the 3mill dummy. Oof

That is exceptionally low. I mean, relequen + LA does already 20k+ dps alone. Unless you are joking, you need to practice rotations. Start by doing one skill, like:
light attack > spammable (wrecking blow or whatever setup you use) > light attack > spammable > light attack > spammable and see how much you get before you run out of magicka stamina. Then start by using aoe, like hurrican and deadly and continue the rotation. Dont try to use an endgame rotation all at once at the start. Do it step-by-step

Also, for easier testing, find someone with Fire Atronach dummy to test with, since that one has all the buffs and will trmendiously help you with your sustain. Prety much any guildmaster will have one. Just ask around.

zvavi

Aaxc wrote: »

light attack > spammable (wrecking blow or whatever setup you use) and see how much you get before you run out of magicka

Jokes aside, I agree with what he said, you can practice the timing of stuff.

etchedpixels

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

I mean, if you are doing less than 20k, you almost have to be actively working at not doing DPS, no?

Lol, that’s depressing. I’m cp1345, just spec’d into a stam sorc dunmer, relequen + kinra + slimecraw. Scored 19.7k dps on the 3mill dummy. Oof

The 3 million dummy is giving you no buffs and debuffs. Not only does it have 18k resistances but it also means you need to be providing: penetration, major savagery, major brutality, minor berserk, major and minor breach, ideally minor vulnerability too in order to get decent dps on it.

Stamina and magicka (and indeed different classes) when solo tend to give results that are hard to compare as well, simply because their solo buff access varies, particularly at lower levels.

If you are testing solo on a stamsorc are you backbarring something to provide all the breaches (1h & shield + pierce armour, razor caltrops etc), running lover and divines gear for enough penetration and frontbarring skills with passive effects or using skills to get major savagery (expert hunter, passive effect) and major brutality (eg critical surge). Slimecraw is minor berserk.

There are then a bunch of other passives that matter: amplitude is up to 10% extra damage, the medium armour passives add lots. And as you've got a fighers guild skill slotted one of those passives is another 3%, or 6% if you put flawless dawnbreaker front bar and the atronarch back.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Aaxc wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

I mean, if you are doing less than 20k, you almost have to be actively working at not doing DPS, no?

Lol, that’s depressing. I’m cp1345, just spec’d into a stam sorc dunmer, relequen + kinra + slimecraw. Scored 19.7k dps on the 3mill dummy. Oof

That is exceptionally low. I mean, relequen + LA does already 20k+ dps alone. Unless you are joking, you need to practice rotations. Start by doing one skill, like:
light attack > spammable (wrecking blow or whatever setup you use) > light attack > spammable > light attack > spammable and see how much you get before you run out of magicka. Then start by using aoe, like hurrican and deadly and continue the rotation. Dont try to use an endgame rotation all at once at the start. Do it step-by-step

Also, for easier testing, find someone with Fire Atronach dummy to test with, since that one has all the buffs and will trmendiously help you with your sustain. Prety much any guildmaster will have one. Just ask around.

Well, my rotation was basically crit surge, light attack, hurricane, light attack, endless hail, light attack, barbed trap, swap crystal weapon light attack, until repeat. I find 2h clunky and slow, but it’s fun so will keep trying

Aaxc

zvavi wrote: »

Aaxc wrote: »

light attack > spammable (wrecking blow or whatever setup you use) and see how much you get before you run out of magicka

Thanks, fixed

ThorianB

Aaxc wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

I mean, if you are doing less than 20k, you almost have to be actively working at not doing DPS, no?

Lol, that’s depressing. I’m cp1345, just spec’d into a stam sorc dunmer, relequen + kinra + slimecraw. Scored 19.7k dps on the 3mill dummy. Oof

That is exceptionally low. I mean, relequen + LA does already 20k+ dps alone. Unless you are joking, you need to practice rotations. Start by doing one skill, like:
light attack > spammable (wrecking blow or whatever setup you use) > light attack > spammable > light attack > spammable and see how much you get before you run out of magicka stamina. Then start by using aoe, like hurrican and deadly and continue the rotation. Dont try to use an endgame rotation all at once at the start. Do it step-by-step

Also, for easier testing, find someone with Fire Atronach dummy to test with, since that one has all the buffs and will trmendiously help you with your sustain. Prety much any guildmaster will have one. Just ask around.

Thats ~40k on a trial dummy. That is good enough for all content but maybe the last couple of vet trials, if that.

TheForFeeF

I would say it completely depends on what content you're aiming to do. Also, how are we measuring this? My best bet would be on a dummy? that is what I am doing to use.

If you're doing score-pushing , your DPS should be 90k+

If you're doing vet Trials, your DPS should be 70k+

If you're doing normal Trials, your DPS should be 30k+

If you're doing HM Dungeons, your DPS should be 40k+

If you're doing normal dungeons, your DPS should be 20k+

If you're questing/doing overland, your DPS should be 10k+

Bare in mind, I am thinking about an expectable DPS on a 21m dummy here.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Here is the glaring issue. No two fights in the game are directly comparable for DPS numbers. The only truly objective benchmark is a trial dummy parse.

I would wager that the average player that has actually done more than 10 dummy parses is in the 50-60K range, maybe even a touch higher. But the average player in all of ESO doesnt have the attention span to get through even one pull from start to finish, so making objective comparisons is pretty tough. If you somehow forced the whole playerbase to do a full pull, my guess is the average would be around 30k on the trial dummy, maybe even a bit less.

Assuming I am in the ball park, I think the big take away is that with even a bit of effort, its not hard to get into the acceptable range, but you do need to actually make the attempt and not just "play however you want". Damage in this game is like 90% rotation. You have to actually make an effort to practice it to some degree if you want respectable damage.

BejaProphet

One of the reasons we could never know is that nobody with 20k dps on a trial dummy would ever finish the parse.

I almost never touch a trial dummy. The 3 million is all my attention span can handle.

ThorianB

Darcwolf wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Darcwolf wrote: »

[snip] I'm tired of carrying people like you. I don't do a ton of dps, but I would say I do between 35-45k depending on the group. I waited until I could do at least 20k to do vet dungeons, which everyone should do.

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

That is fine if you are running a private group. But if you are queuing for a DF PUG, you have no right to dictate the conditions in which other people are allowed to run that content or to run with you in that content. You also have no right to complain if they don't meet your requirements. In a DF PUG, you agree that you deal with the group you are given. If you think carrying people is unfair to you then don't queue for DF PUGs. You can do whatever you want in a private group you formed yourself though. Your group, your rules. To many people think public groups should follow their rules though.

[Quoted post was removed]

Who said anything about holding anyone up? I am talking about the toxic players who demand everyone in a public group meet some artificial criteria to run through this content. The only criteria players have to meet to run content is that set by the developers. Elitists, speed runners, pledge runners, etc don't get to come into public DF groups and dictate how the dungeon is ran. But they try and they have zero compromise and tolerance for any playstyle or goals that isn't there own. Whereas casuals will often adapt in a group to other casuals needs and goals. Ive waited for quest runners, looters, players who have r/l interruptions, and have spent up to 2 hours on a single normal DLC boss because the lowbies struggled with the mechanics. I never complain about these players, EVER. If i am unhappy with the way group is going, i say something to the effect of, " I don't have any more time tonight guys, good luck!" and leave gracefully. Not really your typical Karen behavior, is it?

On the flip side we have ( all directed at me or a group member while i heal normal DF randoms):

• "Healer, we don't need heals in this dungeon, you need to do DPS instead"
• " I have ran this dungeon hundreds of times. I can run it in 20 minutes solo. It should not take ME 15 minutes with a group."
• " I am getting mighty tired since i am carrying this entire group."
• " I have pledges on 11 more characters today, i don't have time to wait for noobs"
• " It's a normal dungeon, if you need a tank for this then you need to L2P."
• " if you can't do at least 10k dps on bosses, you shouldn't even queue for dungeons."
• " Level 19? NOPE! Not carrying you through this dungeon bro!"
• " If you want to do quests and kill trash and loot, form your own group and stay out of DF"

I think you may be confused on the slang " Karen". Besides both aggressive and passive aggressive comments we also get vote kicks for players not performing to the toxic players standards. I decline these on principle.

BejaProphet

ThorianB wrote: »

Darcwolf wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Darcwolf wrote: »

[snip] I'm tired of carrying people like you. I don't do a ton of dps, but I would say I do between 35-45k depending on the group. I waited until I could do at least 20k to do vet dungeons, which everyone should do.

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

That is fine if you are running a private group. But if you are queuing for a DF PUG, you have no right to dictate the conditions in which other people are allowed to run that content or to run with you in that content. You also have no right to complain if they don't meet your requirements. In a DF PUG, you agree that you deal with the group you are given. If you think carrying people is unfair to you then don't queue for DF PUGs. You can do whatever you want in a private group you formed yourself though. Your group, your rules. To many people think public groups should follow their rules though.

[Quoted post was removed]

Who said anything about holding anyone up? I am talking about the toxic players who demand everyone in a public group meet some artificial criteria to run through this content. The only criteria players have to meet to run content is that set by the developers. Elitists, speed runners, pledge runners, etc don't get to come into public DF groups and dictate how the dungeon is ran. But they try and they have zero compromise and tolerance for any playstyle or goals that isn't there own. Whereas casuals will often adapt in a group to other casuals needs and goals. Ive waited for quest runners, looters, players who have r/l interruptions, and have spent up to 2 hours on a single normal DLC boss because the lowbies struggled with the mechanics. I never complain about these players, EVER. If i am unhappy with the way group is going, i say something to the effect of, " I don't have any more time tonight guys, good luck!" and leave gracefully. Not really your typical Karen behavior, is it?

On the flip side we have ( all directed at me or a group member while i heal normal DF randoms):

• "Healer, we don't need heals in this dungeon, you need to do DPS instead"
• " I have ran this dungeon hundreds of times. I can run it in 20 minutes solo. It should not take ME 15 minutes with a group."
• " I am getting mighty tired since i am carrying this entire group."
• " I have pledges on 11 more characters today, i don't have time to wait for noobs"
• " It's a normal dungeon, if you need a tank for this then you need to L2P."
• " if you can't do at least 10k dps on bosses, you shouldn't even queue for dungeons."
• " Level 19? NOPE! Not carrying you through this dungeon bro!"
• " If you want to do quests and kill trash and loot, form your own group and stay out of DF"

I think you may be confused on the slang " Karen". Besides both aggressive and passive aggressive comments we also get vote kicks for players not performing to the toxic players standards. I decline these on principle.

You speak a lot of truth. But the uncomfortable truth is that when you choose to build or play in a way contrary to your group thriving, you will catch grief some of the time.

It should not be so. But it is so. There is nothing anybody in this thread or on the ZOS developer team can do to change that.

I am not advocating or approving of any of the ways you’ve been treated. I’m simply recognizing that it will not stop nor can it be stopped.

etchedpixels

BejaProphet wrote: »

It should not be so. But it is so. There is nothing anybody in this thread or on the ZOS developer team can do to change that.

I am not advocating or approving of any of the ways you’ve been treated. I’m simply recognizing that it will not stop nor can it be stopped.

I would strongly disagree.

It's all about incentives.

If you get meaningfully worthwhile rewards for veteran over normal people will do veteran
If you change the system so the optimum number of keys and crystals is not obtained by speedrunning 4 dungeons x 18 toons a day people will stop doing it

If there was say a 3 key and 20 crystal cap on normals per account per day (but not on vet) then much of the problem would disappear.

I'm not for one minute suggesting that is the right balance - I just want to clearly point out you can stop most of it.

BejaProphet

etchedpixels wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

It should not be so. But it is so. There is nothing anybody in this thread or on the ZOS developer team can do to change that.

I am not advocating or approving of any of the ways you’ve been treated. I’m simply recognizing that it will not stop nor can it be stopped.

I would strongly disagree.

It's all about incentives.

If you get meaningfully worthwhile rewards for veteran over normal people will do veteran
If you change the system so the optimum number of keys and crystals is not obtained by speedrunning 4 dungeons x 18 toons a day people will stop doing it

If there was say a 3 key and 20 crystal cap on normals per account per day (but not on vet) then much of the problem would disappear.

I'm not for one minute suggesting that is the right balance - I just want to clearly point out you can stop most of it.

It would only change what people see as “thriving.” You are not going to change bullies. You would only change what they want you to do. Whatever the new best practice was, they’d bully anybody not doing that.

Don’t you see? We aren’t really talking about the game. We are talking about some human beings who feel like they have grounds to treat others poorly if they don’t like what they are doing. ZOS can’t change that. It’s naive to think they can.

etchedpixels

BejaProphet wrote: »

It would only change what people see as “thriving.” You are not going to change bullies. You would only change what they want you to do. Whatever the new best practice was, they’d bully anybody not doing that.

Don’t you see? We aren’t really talking about the game. We are talking about some human beings who feel like they have grounds to treat others poorly if they don’t like what they are doing. ZOS can’t change that. It’s naive to think they can.

To some extent I agree - but you can modify toxic behaviour by making it non-optimal. That's after all the whole point of a legal system. If you push the in game bad behavers into a world where the optimal way to play in an inconsiderate selfish way is solo then it's a win.

Kwoung

I find it odd that the toxic speed runners get their way. They are the smallest part of the population. In my experience, most players do not like speed running, it makes the dungeon a stressful grind, whether you can do it with your eyes closed or not. Sure it's quicker, but 1000% less enjoyable, as you are now treating it like a freaking job, the exact thing people came home from to spend time relaxing in a game to unwind.

Basically though, this falls on ZOS IMHO for implementing systems that bring out this type of behavior. Sure, you are doing pre-formed vet hard mode dungeons/trial groups, everyone should be pulling their weight, feel free to boot slackers if you didn't know going in you would be doing a carry. But seriously, expecting anything more than 100% random out of a random groups through a dungeon finder, come on.

There is probably a very good reason these players can't find 3 friends to run their daily dungeons with, they should be the ones voted off the island.

Agenericname

etchedpixels wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

It should not be so. But it is so. There is nothing anybody in this thread or on the ZOS developer team can do to change that.

I am not advocating or approving of any of the ways you’ve been treated. I’m simply recognizing that it will not stop nor can it be stopped.

I would strongly disagree.

It's all about incentives.

If you get meaningfully worthwhile rewards for veteran over normal people will do veteran
If you change the system so the optimum number of keys and crystals is not obtained by speedrunning 4 dungeons x 18 toons a day people will stop doing it

If there was say a 3 key and 20 crystal cap on normals per account per day (but not on vet) then much of the problem would disappear.

I'm not for one minute suggesting that is the right balance - I just want to clearly point out you can stop most of it.

I would agree that some could be stopped. Im iffy on "much", but its hard to say.

Its been my experience that normals are the worst of it. Ive seen very few kicks in vets and vet DLCs, successful kicks. Thats out of thousands of dungeons. The fewest and most well behaved are often the vet DLCs. On average. I think there are a number of reasons for that, but one that pertains to this topic is that they tend to foster a sense of cooperation. The same doesnt always exist in normals while the gap in damage is so wide and the need for cooperation is so low.

In vet DLCs when a group couldnt clear content, usually someone leaves, and even then, theres usually dialogue. Its not always a kick. Typically someone will explain the mechanics if someone asks. If you enter a dungeon and say "hello", "hi", or "Hi, Im a potato tank thats just learning" youre more likely to get acknowledged there.

The people that truly get off on making other people miserable will still be there. Thats the part that wont be stopped.

HalfRain216

TheForFeeF wrote: »

I would say it completely depends on what content you're aiming to do. Also, how are we measuring this? My best bet would be on a dummy? that is what I am doing to use.

If you're doing score-pushing , your DPS should be 90k+

If you're doing vet Trials, your DPS should be 70k+

If you're doing normal Trials, your DPS should be 30k+

If you're doing HM Dungeons, your DPS should be 40k+

If you're doing normal dungeons, your DPS should be 20k+

If you're questing/doing overland, your DPS should be 10k+

Bare in mind, I am thinking about an expectable DPS on a 21m dummy here.

Is there a difference between dummy’s?
I though I was honestly doing some decent dps never used a dummy before I have a magcro. I jumped on one today spamming skulls, blastbones and light attacks most I could get was 9k DPS on the precursor dummy.
Ive done vet dungeons no issue.

Jaimeh

Below 20k for the majority I'd guess

Kwoung

HalfRain216 wrote: »

TheForFeeF wrote: »

I would say it completely depends on what content you're aiming to do. Also, how are we measuring this? My best bet would be on a dummy? that is what I am doing to use.

If you're doing score-pushing , your DPS should be 90k+

If you're doing vet Trials, your DPS should be 70k+

If you're doing normal Trials, your DPS should be 30k+

If you're doing HM Dungeons, your DPS should be 40k+

If you're doing normal dungeons, your DPS should be 20k+

If you're questing/doing overland, your DPS should be 10k+

Bare in mind, I am thinking about an expectable DPS on a 21m dummy here.

Is there a difference between dummy’s?
I though I was honestly doing some decent dps never used a dummy before I have a magcro. I jumped on one today spamming skulls, blastbones and light attacks most I could get was 9k DPS on the precursor dummy.
Ive done vet dungeons no issue.

Use the trial dummy, the Precursor isn't really good for anything other than listening to his comments. He dies too quickly to give any idea of your DPS and if he doesn't... well yikes!

HalfRain216

Kwoung wrote: »

HalfRain216 wrote: »

TheForFeeF wrote: »

I would say it completely depends on what content you're aiming to do. Also, how are we measuring this? My best bet would be on a dummy? that is what I am doing to use.

If you're doing score-pushing , your DPS should be 90k+

If you're doing vet Trials, your DPS should be 70k+

If you're doing normal Trials, your DPS should be 30k+

If you're doing HM Dungeons, your DPS should be 40k+

If you're doing normal dungeons, your DPS should be 20k+

If you're questing/doing overland, your DPS should be 10k+

Bare in mind, I am thinking about an expectable DPS on a 21m dummy here.

Is there a difference between dummy’s?
I though I was honestly doing some decent dps never used a dummy before I have a magcro. I jumped on one today spamming skulls, blastbones and light attacks most I could get was 9k DPS on the precursor dummy.
Ive done vet dungeons no issue.

Use the trial dummy, the Precursor isn't really good for anything other than listening to his comments. He dies too quickly to give any idea of your DPS and if he doesn't... well yikes!

Think fastest he was killed 36 seconds.

Rkindaleft

VaranisArano wrote: »

HalfRain216 wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

From my experience teach players most untrained players fall within the 5-15k realm (3 mil). There are a number of factors that go into that range.

1. How much research they have done beforehand.
2. Race/class spec they have chosen, some specs play stronger at lower end.
3. Adaption to DPS techniques (IE. weaving, animation canceling, etc)

Most that stuck with it can achieve 20k within a month easily, but without guidance (from an experienced player or self research via online resources) I doubt they would achieve it otherwise.

Because of this I would gauge the average DPS to sit somewhere around 12.5k for the entirety of the playerbase.

Unless you are really in to pushing your character and trying to get the numbers so you do the research and spend the time I don’t think a lot of people would seek out the information rather than just playing the game. I would think nearly every player has checked out the guild store solo or not though.

Would it not increase dps for everyone and for people who don’t go into dungeons that much to be able to buy dungeon gear from the guild store (except monster sets) to be able to play around with there builds giving them more confidence to enter dungeons. At this stage most of the loot gets deconstructed anyways as you have 50 copies.

Honestly, making BOP gear from dungeons available wouldn't help that much. There are enough crafted and overland sets that are viable at a pretty high level. For example: julianos/Mother's Sorrow for magicka DDs and Hundings rage/briarheart for Stamina DDs. Those are easily sufficient for players who want to get started running group content in dungeons and normal trials, at which point you can earn everything short of perfected gear.

It's just that gear alone doesn't magically improve a player, and practicing their rotation and weaving is going to be a big conponent of increasing their DPS beyond just what having the "ideal" gear can do.

Exactly. When people say "gear doesn't really matter for dps" they don't mean that you can do good DPS in any combination of gear. What they mean is that the difference in strength between meta gear compared to what someone like Alcast considers as beginner gear isn't huge, it's mere percentage points of difference. There have been so many people in my guilds over the years who have gotten the meta gear, golded it out, transmuted the gear to the right traits, etc, and still struggle to do over 20k because they cannot execute the rotation well enough. You can pull enough DPS to do a large amount of what would be considered "endgame" content with crafted and easily gotten overland sets.

Rkindaleft

BejaProphet wrote: »

Yeah, target dummies are not the same as real fights, people over estimate their value.

Personally, I think that's also true in vice-versa. Dummies are important for developing the ability to execute a rotation in a raid. The truth is if you aren't a good enough player to execute a rotation on a dummy you're not a good enough player to perform well in raids of any substantial difficulty. There are DPS who parse 90k who can't stay alive. But there is at least a correlation between parsing and player skill.

BejaProphet

Nchuleftingth wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Yeah, target dummies are not the same as real fights, people over estimate their value.

Personally, I think that's also true in vice-versa. Dummies are important for developing the ability to execute a rotation in a raid. The truth is if you aren't a good enough player to execute a rotation on a dummy you're not a good enough player to perform well in raids of any substantial difficulty. There are DPS who parse 90k who can't stay alive. But there is at least a correlation between parsing and player skill.

Go back and read the whole post you quoted that snippet from. I think you missed the rhetorical approach I was taking. 😉

Bobby_V_Rockit

Aaxc wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

I mean, if you are doing less than 20k, you almost have to be actively working at not doing DPS, no?

Lol, that’s depressing. I’m cp1345, just spec’d into a stam sorc dunmer, relequen + kinra + slimecraw. Scored 19.7k dps on the 3mill dummy. Oof

That is exceptionally low. I mean, relequen + LA does already 20k+ dps alone. Unless you are joking, you need to practice rotations.

I just tried light attacking as the only action, with crit surge and the clanfear and storm fist still only got 18k. That was with full rele and kinra stacks. Ah well, I’m a keep practising

Kwoung

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Aaxc wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

I mean, if you are doing less than 20k, you almost have to be actively working at not doing DPS, no?

Lol, that’s depressing. I’m cp1345, just spec’d into a stam sorc dunmer, relequen + kinra + slimecraw. Scored 19.7k dps on the 3mill dummy. Oof

That is exceptionally low. I mean, relequen + LA does already 20k+ dps alone. Unless you are joking, you need to practice rotations.

I just tried light attacking as the only action, with crit surge and the clanfear and storm fist still only got 18k. That was with full rele and kinra stacks. Ah well, I’m a keep practising

Were you spamming LA's? You can fire them off every .6 seconds, so if you were only doing it every second you can do better spamming LA's (not that it is really helpful in any way).

ArchMikem

I've only tried a couple parses post CP change on a 3mil dummy, and I hit a measly 20k to 24k with my current builds. (Highest I managed my StamBlade once was 36k) Worse than what I was able to do a while ago, however I don't really care anymore. I rarely do Dungeons on Veteran and I haven't stepped into a Trial for the longest time. Everything else in PvE is a cake walk that has no need to push my numbers.

As long as I'm hitting the 20s casually on a standard dummy I'm content.

ThorianB

BejaProphet wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Darcwolf wrote: »

ThorianB wrote: »

Darcwolf wrote: »

[snip] I'm tired of carrying people like you. I don't do a ton of dps, but I would say I do between 35-45k depending on the group. I waited until I could do at least 20k to do vet dungeons, which everyone should do.

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

That is fine if you are running a private group. But if you are queuing for a DF PUG, you have no right to dictate the conditions in which other people are allowed to run that content or to run with you in that content. You also have no right to complain if they don't meet your requirements. In a DF PUG, you agree that you deal with the group you are given. If you think carrying people is unfair to you then don't queue for DF PUGs. You can do whatever you want in a private group you formed yourself though. Your group, your rules. To many people think public groups should follow their rules though.

[Quoted post was removed]

Who said anything about holding anyone up? I am talking about the toxic players who demand everyone in a public group meet some artificial criteria to run through this content. The only criteria players have to meet to run content is that set by the developers. Elitists, speed runners, pledge runners, etc don't get to come into public DF groups and dictate how the dungeon is ran. But they try and they have zero compromise and tolerance for any playstyle or goals that isn't there own. Whereas casuals will often adapt in a group to other casuals needs and goals. Ive waited for quest runners, looters, players who have r/l interruptions, and have spent up to 2 hours on a single normal DLC boss because the lowbies struggled with the mechanics. I never complain about these players, EVER. If i am unhappy with the way group is going, i say something to the effect of, " I don't have any more time tonight guys, good luck!" and leave gracefully. Not really your typical Karen behavior, is it?

On the flip side we have ( all directed at me or a group member while i heal normal DF randoms):

• "Healer, we don't need heals in this dungeon, you need to do DPS instead"
• " I have ran this dungeon hundreds of times. I can run it in 20 minutes solo. It should not take ME 15 minutes with a group."
• " I am getting mighty tired since i am carrying this entire group."
• " I have pledges on 11 more characters today, i don't have time to wait for noobs"
• " It's a normal dungeon, if you need a tank for this then you need to L2P."
• " if you can't do at least 10k dps on bosses, you shouldn't even queue for dungeons."
• " Level 19? NOPE! Not carrying you through this dungeon bro!"
• " If you want to do quests and kill trash and loot, form your own group and stay out of DF"

I think you may be confused on the slang " Karen". Besides both aggressive and passive aggressive comments we also get vote kicks for players not performing to the toxic players standards. I decline these on principle.

You speak a lot of truth. But the uncomfortable truth is that when you choose to build or play in a way contrary to your group thriving, you will catch grief some of the time.

It should not be so. But it is so. There is nothing anybody in this thread or on the ZOS developer team can do to change that.

I am not advocating or approving of any of the ways you’ve been treated. I’m simply recognizing that it will not stop nor can it be stopped.

I disagree, toxic behavior can be both discouraged and punished.

Tannus15

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Aaxc wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

I mean, if you are doing less than 20k, you almost have to be actively working at not doing DPS, no?

Lol, that’s depressing. I’m cp1345, just spec’d into a stam sorc dunmer, relequen + kinra + slimecraw. Scored 19.7k dps on the 3mill dummy. Oof

That is exceptionally low. I mean, relequen + LA does already 20k+ dps alone. Unless you are joking, you need to practice rotations.

I just tried light attacking as the only action, with crit surge and the clanfear and storm fist still only got 18k. That was with full rele and kinra stacks. Ah well, I’m a keep practising

usually when i see this it's because people's jewellery enchants are stam regen instead of weapon damage and all weapons have stam absorb.

you need to also be aware that posted builds are based around group pen debuffs. some classes have these debuffs built in, but stam sorc is not one of them. change your mundus to the lover and you'll probably see a dps jump because pen is the most important "stat". Add razor caltrops and you'll see another big dps jump as you get major breach, even though it's a very average skill in it's own right.

DonHardstyle

I think the majority of the players hover between 20k and 50k. I think that about right for most of the casual player base. Between 50k and 70k, are those that play an bit more hardcore and above are the hardcore players. However there are exceptions to this. There are some casual players, like me that also hit 89.9k on the trial dummy. But I don't think that is rare for casual players.