DK speed/mobility

Sleevez340

I knownthat posting here is just thinking out loud. Devs don't read this consistently enough to see anything of outstanding value. However something that has felt off for a while is in yhe title here. Mobility and speed of the DK, more mag, but unless you're running medium and a bow. Then stam as well.

So sorc for instance has streak, and lightning form.. but almost no melee skill morphs in their class kit.

The DK class kit is all melee. But suffers from nearly no mobility. With the changes to armor that recently took place. Sorc and NB are the only classes that can actually use more than 2 pieces of Light armor and stand a chance at surviving getting hit with cc and escaping. So sk must wear heavy. Which takes away more mobility.

I'm not sure what I was hoping for here. But it would be nice to have something that provided a minor speed buff similar to hurricane.

HowellQagan

All we have is chains, which is sad. We need a speed buff on our wings too, like Wardens.

Vevvev

HowellQagan wrote: »

All we have is chains, which is sad. We need a speed buff on our wings too, like Wardens.

Moving the speed buff off chains and onto wings would be pretty neat actually.

Chilly-McFreeze

Sleevez340 wrote: »

But it would be nice to have something that provided a minor speed buff similar to hurricane.

No, thanks.

If you're lacking speed ask for major expedition or use e.g. RAT. But keep minor expedition out of the picture.

Sleevez340

The reason I think minor would be better is because there's a few skills with access to major. And really nothing with minor. That's just my opinion.

Major expedition on wings would help. Also, making it a leap forward when you flap would also help. But then all the sorcs would cry. And I would love that.

Chilly-McFreeze

Sleevez340 wrote: »

The reason I think minor would be better is because there's a few skills with access to major. And really nothing with minor. That's just my opinion.

Major expedition on wings would help. Also, making it a leap forward when you flap would also help. But then all the sorcs would cry. And I would love that.

Next stop: asking for 2 clunky delayed skills and some pets. Or are you contempt with your cheap copy of hurricane and streak?

Seriously, just go play a stam sorc if you want to use all that makes them stand apart.

Better yet ask for buffing what DK already is instead of turning it into something that it is not.

Sleevez340

Whatever keeps you happily trolling the forums. Looking for ppl to tell that they're wrong. I'm not trying to take away class identity. You've made up everything here that completes that. I'm asking for some speed. Or mobility. If you didn't like that than just happily scroll past and don't put your 2 cents in.

Chilly-McFreeze

As this is a forum that strives on exchanging of views, even opposing ones, it's not on you to tell who is allowed to post here on not.
And I'm only telling you that you're better of playing a class that has all the tools you wish for in the first place (minor exp + short "leaping") or use the generic tools DKs have access to (RAT, mistform). We both know they won't copy stamsorcs identity to DKs.... but then again, they robbed most of NBs uniqueness so who knows?

If you look through my post history you see I'm asking for DK buffs myself. I just think it's better to focus on DKs strength's and mechanics instead of asking for things that are rather unlikely to happen.

But each to their own, I guess.

Sangwyne

Stam DK has no sources of major/minor expedition, no mobility (an Ultimate doesn't count), no sustain, no healing, no purge, no spammable, no executes, no delayed burst skill and no range. Despite being entirely melee and needing to build tanky just to survive, it has no mitigation skills to actually stay in the fight; no access to Minor Resolve, Minor Protection or Major Protection, no % damage reduction, no flat health, no % health, nothing, on top of the worst self-healing in the game, and the majority of its damage is supplied through DOTs that last 14s (and take up a passive to do so) but are cleansed in 3s. Is it any surprise that DK crutches so heavily on proc sets when the class itself provides practically nothing? You could probably strip away every single skill and passive, slap Dizzying Swing, Dawnbreaker, Vigor and Crimson on an NPC and most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference. DK also has the worst damage and the worst healing in the game; when's the last time anyone saw a DK healer or Stam DK DPS in trials? It isn't even that great as a tank; Necro and Warden are much tankier in PvP, and the only reason it's taken as a tank in trials is because it sucks on every other role but groups need its buffs. Every other class has at least one iconic or strong skill, and the DLC classes have several, but what exactly makes a DK stand apart? Stam DK has no good skills, change my mind.

Hotdog_23

HowellQagan wrote: »

All we have is chains, which is sad. We need a speed buff on our wings too, like Wardens.

I have ask for this for years now to be only ignored by ZOS.

While we are at it Hardened Armor should return fire damage and not magic damage and Volatile Armor needs to be poison damage and pulse every 1 seconds so I can activate it and get the secondary benefit when I get in range of a target rather than just the Major Resolve.

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS stop the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

Firstmep

Chains animation should be much faster especially for the gapcloser morph, its just atrocious how bad it is compared other gapclosers like crit charge or topple.
Expedition on on wings could also be nice for sure, given that Rat also has 3 effects while wings only has 2.

relentless_turnip

I would rather they promote what the class is already good at rather than making like others. If you want a fast DK build you can build it to be that's your choice. Very simply on stamdk you can back bar gryphon with a bow and wild Hunt you'll be fast asf and can still keep your jewelry infused. I don't want them to copy stamsorc. I love my DK and my stamsorc, but stamsorc has access to very few buffs that improve its healing and mitigation. Literally it's fast and that's it and I am ok with that because often that can be more important.

Dks ATM can block and heal through multiple sources of damage. The biggest thing for me would firstly on magdk that the burning embers needs a buff and so does its dots in general. Cauterize could probably be better too, although it's very effective imo when coupled with fragmented. My defence is nuts on my magdk with back bar daedric trickery and a powered resto. I actually use radiating regen as the heal is that good I can utilize it as a hot and use foo as spammable and molten as delayed burst. I have rat on my back bar too and swap between wild Hunt and malacath. I havent decided what I prefer.

Urzigurumash

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Very simply on stamdk you can back bar gryphon with a bow and wild Hunt you'll be fast asf and can still keep your jewelry infused.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

My defence is nuts on my magdk with back bar daedric trickery and a powered resto. I actually use radiating regen as the heal is that good I can utilize it as a hot and use foo as spammable and molten as delayed burst. I have rat on my back bar too and swap between wild Hunt and malacath. I havent decided what I prefer.

Right, we can use proc sets to address any issue. Thing is we've been told quite clearly and loudly that using proc sets is deeply, deeply immoral, and makes us bad people and players.

Sangwyne wrote: »

Stam DK has no good skills, change my mind.

If Blocking were disabled, and you could only pick 1 single skill to play PvP with, what would you pick? Take Flight, right? Before it had the clunky cast time that makes us die while we're trying to cast it and makes it much easier to be blocked, it was the single best skill in the game.

As I've said many times before on this forum, restore the ability of Corrosive to buff DoTs, particularly Noxious Breath and Venomous Claw. While you're at it, give us back the old Onslaught (restores Ult used on kill) for the incredible sustain it gave StamDK if they used it well. Make those two changes and we can leave Leap with its dangerous and bothersome cast time so that it isn't the single best skill in the game like it used to be, and we can start putting some power in other aspects of the DK kit.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I would rather they promote what the class is already good at rather than making like others.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Dks ATM can block and heal through multiple sources of damage.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Better yet ask for buffing what DK already is instead of turning it into something that it is not.

Sangwyne wrote: »

no % damage reduction, no flat health, no % health, nothing, on top of the worst self-healing in the game.

We have 10% increased mitigation while blocking, 3300 Spell Resists, 5% HP Regen per Draconic Power Skill (aka DPS) slotted, and 12% Healing Taken while a DPS is active. Those our are defensive passives. They're not bad in nature, but the numbers need tuned up on the Blocking and HP Regen passives to stand out, like probably doubled, at least. How high of a Health Pool do you need so that GDB is reliably on par with a Warden's Arctic Blast at 30k HP, or a Necro's Resistant Flesh at 4k Spell Damage? I'm not sure, but much higher than anything you'll get in 5 Medium, unless you're putting a bunch of attribute points in Health.

Thing is, we've been told quite clearly that wearing Heavy Armor is also deeply immoral and makes us bad players - so too is blocking, so too is stacking HP Regen, so is having a high HP pool. All of these things are bad, they make us bad players, we should be ashamed, etc, etc, etc. Again and again, on and on and on, "Tanks are bad and they should feel bad"

Anyhow about the original subject, I have no problem relying on Shield Charge for my mobility, except for the little dance it sometimes makes me do when I'm done with it, rather than being able to use my skills. Allow me however to deal in the evil for a moment as I recommend a buff for a proc set, please stop reading if you're already feeling angry: Blackrose S&B needs a new effect. The 25% reduced cost to Shield Charge is great, but the secondary effect is not. The only expensive S&B skill is D Posture, and casting D Posture immediately after Shield Charging isn't incredibly effective for the sorts of builds that use Shield Charge the most.

Dunning_Kruger

Today I learned that stam dks have no healing. Lol.

Urzigurumash

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

Today I learned that stam dks have no healing. Lol.

Any discussion about healing right now is questionable, since we're probably comparing things to Living Death heals, which are off the charts right now. Not that that's a bad thing necessarily.

Qbiken

If you want mobility on magdk tripple swift + RaT is your friend. With the amount of proc sets and free stats we got this patch there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to use tripple swift without trading anything essential

Vevvev

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

Today I learned that stam dks have no healing. Lol.

They -technically- do, but none of those heals cost stamina. Cauterize scales off highest offensive stats so a stamDK can technically use it, and Green Dragonblood heals 33% of missing HP but it is a bit expensive for a stamDK to spam. Sadly Flames of Oblivion has the weapon critical along with it so it's the better choice over Cauterize, and Resolving Vigor beats Green Dragonblood for stamDK burst heals.

relentless_turnip

Urzigurumash wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Very simply on stamdk you can back bar gryphon with a bow and wild Hunt you'll be fast asf and can still keep your jewelry infused.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

My defence is nuts on my magdk with back bar daedric trickery and a powered resto. I actually use radiating regen as the heal is that good I can utilize it as a hot and use foo as spammable and molten as delayed burst. I have rat on my back bar too and swap between wild Hunt and malacath. I havent decided what I prefer.

Right, we can use proc sets to address any issue. Thing is we've been told quite clearly and loudly that using proc sets is deeply, deeply immoral, and makes us bad people and players.

Sangwyne wrote: »

Stam DK has no good skills, change my mind.

If Blocking were disabled, and you could only pick 1 single skill to play PvP with, what would you pick? Take Flight, right? Before it had the clunky cast time that makes us die while we're trying to cast it and makes it much easier to be blocked, it was the single best skill in the game.

As I've said many times before on this forum, restore the ability of Corrosive to buff DoTs, particularly Noxious Breath and Venomous Claw. While you're at it, give us back the old Onslaught (restores Ult used on kill) for the incredible sustain it gave StamDK if they used it well. Make those two changes and we can leave Leap with its dangerous and bothersome cast time so that it isn't the single best skill in the game like it used to be, and we can start putting some power in other aspects of the DK kit.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I would rather they promote what the class is already good at rather than making like others.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Dks ATM can block and heal through multiple sources of damage.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Better yet ask for buffing what DK already is instead of turning it into something that it is not.

Sangwyne wrote: »

no % damage reduction, no flat health, no % health, nothing, on top of the worst self-healing in the game.

We have 10% increased mitigation while blocking, 3300 Spell Resists, 5% HP Regen per Draconic Power Skill (aka DPS) slotted, and 12% Healing Taken while a DPS is active. Those our are defensive passives. They're not bad in nature, but the numbers need tuned up on the Blocking and HP Regen passives to stand out, like probably doubled, at least. How high of a Health Pool do you need so that GDB is reliably on par with a Warden's Arctic Blast at 30k HP, or a Necro's Resistant Flesh at 4k Spell Damage? I'm not sure, but much higher than anything you'll get in 5 Medium, unless you're putting a bunch of attribute points in Health.

Thing is, we've been told quite clearly that wearing Heavy Armor is also deeply immoral and makes us bad players - so too is blocking, so too is stacking HP Regen, so is having a high HP pool. All of these things are bad, they make us bad players, we should be ashamed, etc, etc, etc. Again and again, on and on and on, "Tanks are bad and they should feel bad"

Anyhow about the original subject, I have no problem relying on Shield Charge for my mobility, except for the little dance it sometimes makes me do when I'm done with it, rather than being able to use my skills. Allow me however to deal in the evil for a moment as I recommend a buff for a proc set, please stop reading if you're already feeling angry: Blackrose S&B needs a new effect. The 25% reduced cost to Shield Charge is great, but the secondary effect is not. The only expensive S&B skill is D Posture, and casting D Posture immediately after Shield Charging isn't incredibly effective for the sorts of builds that use Shield Charge the most.

I don't think most consider daedric a proc set. It was only zos that threw all conditional stat sets in the same category with what we call proc sets. If we were discussing crimson I may have to throw some holy water at you and shout "the power of Christ compels you!"

I think necro is a good example of a class that is really good but is no longer ridiculously op(that may be controversial). They have very decent defensive passives and skills which means you can run practically anything and be successful. A lot of other classes need certain sets to fill the voids in their class kits. Warden on the other hand is ridiculous and I think mainly at this point it is just arctic over performing.

I think heavy armor is pretty balanced now tbh. When I tested it on the PTS I still thought it overperformed, but with duelling being the depth of which we can test things it was a biased decision. The drawbacks largely stop it being bis.

Generally I think balance is pretty decent ATM and I hope things are tweeted and not nuked or launched into the stratosphere. I do agree dks are near the bottom of pile though... I think warden is at the top😂

Sangwyne

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

I just think it's better to focus on DKs strength's and mechanics instead of asking for things that are rather unlikely to happen.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I would rather they promote what the class is already good at rather than making like others.

...What exactly is the class good at, again? Look at literally any recognized class tier list: Hack's, Alcast's, any of them, they all recommend staying away from DK. There's a reason for that.

https://alcasthq.com/eso-dps-tier-list-best-damage-classes/
https://www.hacktheminotaur.com/eso-guides/best-solo-class-in-eso-2020
/watch?v=C_AcbWZZtwc (luckyghost) starting from 1:41
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/568150/pvp-tierlist-for-flames-of-ambition/p1

Even in PvP it performs poorly, judging by the last list, and based off feedback, has been for quite some time.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Dks ATM can block and heal through multiple sources of damage. The biggest thing for me would firstly on magdk that the burning embers needs a buff and so does its dots in general. Cauterize could probably be better too, although it's very effective imo when coupled with fragmented. My defence is nuts on my magdk with back bar daedric trickery and a powered resto. I actually use radiating regen as the heal is that good I can utilize it as a hot and use foo as spammable and molten as delayed burst. I have rat on my back bar too and swap between wild Hunt and malacath. I havent decided what I prefer.

You say DK can mitigate or heal through anything and then give examples that aren't even from the class. I'm sorry man, but slap a Powered Resto staff and Radiating Regen on any class and it will have decent healing; that doesn't mean that DK's class healing isn't complete garbage. You did at least acknowledge that Burning Embers and Cauterize weren't great, but Stam DK can't even use those effectively. DK has barely anything in the way of mitigation, just Wings (which no one uses for good reason) and the 10% block mitigation; Templar also has 10% block mitigation, on top of an extra 2974 resistances from Focus, on top of their class spell resistance and an entire healing line, and yet I doubt anyone would claim it's tanky.

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

Today I learned that stam dks have no healing. Lol.

Name checks out. Please inform us all how a Magicka-based heal that grants Spell Crit and ticks every 5s is useful on a Stamina build. It's not even that great of a heal to begin with on Mag DK; I still don't understand why it has to be the only heal in the game that ticks every 5s instead of every 1 or 2 seconds.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

We have 10% increased mitigation while blocking, 3300 Spell Resists, 5% HP Regen per Draconic Power Skill (aka DPS) slotted, and 12% Healing Taken while a DPS is active. Those our are defensive passives. They're not bad in nature, but the numbers need tuned up on the Blocking and HP Regen passives to stand out, like probably doubled, at least. How high of a Health Pool do you need so that GDB is reliably on par with a Warden's Arctic Blast at 30k HP, or a Necro's Resistant Flesh at 4k Spell Damage? I'm not sure, but much higher than anything you'll get in 5 Medium, unless you're putting a bunch of attribute points in Health.

5% HP regen? Come on man, how can you seriously look at that and think it's decent? Templar gets Spell resistance and 10% block mitigation too; it's still in the trash can. 3300 Spell Resist is equivalent to 5% reduced Spell damage taken, but only if not overcapped on a tank, it isn't even remotely comparable to Necro's 15% reduced DOT damage taken, or their 10% total damage reduction on Spirit Guardian, or NB's 20% AOE damage reduction. I agree that the healing taken passive is quite nice, it's just a shame that DK doesn't actually have any decent healing to make use of it.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Stam DK has no good skills, change my mind.

If Blocking were disabled, and you could only pick 1 single skill to play PvP with, what would you pick? Take Flight, right? Before it had the clunky cast time that makes us die while we're trying to cast it and makes it much easier to be blocked, it was the single best skill in the game.

Why are we comparing Ultimates to regular skills? Take Flight is solid as the only gapcloser that has its range boosted in PvP, but like you mentioned, it's been nerfed and if the range was reduced by even 1m it would be a lot worse. I really wish DK didn't have to be kept so weak just to balance around one skill, an Ultimate, that's only used in PvP. If you could only pick one regular skill, Blastbones, Spirit Guardian, Betty Netch, Arctic Blast, Scorch, Haunting Curse, Streak, Shadowy Disguise, Dark Cloak, Mirage or even Focus blow anything DK has out of the water, I'd give up any single DK skill in a heartbeat for any of those in PvP.

Kartalin

DEVS: Yeah, I think it's about time DKs got a buff.

THAT ONE GUY: What? Remember how OP they were for like the first couple months of the game 7 years ago? F those guys.

DEVS: Ok moving on, how do we buff magsorcs further...

nihoumab14_ESO

DK healing is an absolute crime, as a person who mains heals, and also likes the idea of DKs, cauterize is....ok, but slow for a heal. Obsidian shard is good healing, but is also slow from when you cast it to when it actually heals due to waiting for animations, PLUS it requires an enemy to be cast against. Cinder storm is really expensive, for a small radius heal. Sure, it also snares what passes through, and it lasts a long time, but the cost combined with a small radius makes the cost to use it prohibitive. And it only barely has better healing than illustrious healing, it just isn't worth the cost. Oh, and fragmented shield, which is nice for major mending, sure, but the shield is utter crap, low radius, overwrites other dk shields, and only scales on health, even for the healer oriented build. You don't use it for the shield which is paper thin, you use it for major mending to buff your heals, but only for 6 seconds.

Then, in terms of self heals, there is Inhale, which i never have see anyone use ever, it's healing is weak unless you are swarmed by enemies. There's dragon blood, but it's expensive. And ugly. And makes you stick out like a sore thumb.

And then the only support ultimate for dragon knights, magma shield, is laughable too. It provides an extra hp bar, equivalent shield for allies sure, but the shields don't last very long and it has a small radius. In terms of support, barrier is infinitely better. Magma shield is nice for making you tanky against large individual hits, but in battlegrounds where proc sets are king, it doesn't help that much.

As is, i recently levels up a new warden, and despite having white and green gear on my warden and incomplete sets, and not having all of my abilities unlocked/leveled for certain things like armor passives, it is still far sturdier than my dk healer. Plus i have better utility in giving major resolve, toughness, a much more useful healing ult, a limited self cleanse, a healing synergy,

Urzigurumash

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I don't think most consider daedric a proc set. It was only zos that threw all conditional stat sets in the same category with what we call proc sets. If we were discussing crimson I may have to throw some holy water at you and shout "the power of Christ compels you!"

It is a proc set though, it might not fit with the most egregious offenders during this last Proc Meta but it still gives you "free" buffs. It still "elevates your defense without a commensurate loss of offense", the inverse of the ontologically-challenging complaints about "free" damage procs. Anyhow this is a pedantic subject but the point is we all know Special Effect sets, if we don't want to use the word proc, help to fill gaps in classes' toolkits. Wild Hunt on a DK is a great example.

When commenters say "Make DKs better at what they're good at, don't give them tools from other classes", part of what you're saying can quite reasonably be construed as "Make DKs better tanks, make Magma Shell a stronger defensive Ult, give them better blocking and more HP Regen." This doesn't jive with the "tanks should be prohibited from PvP" ethos that is propagated throughout ESO PvP discourse. Of course all DKs are in favor of some sort of "Super Burning" or "Super Poisoned" effect, some unique damage-related passive, but outside of these sorts of novel ideas, if you want DKs to play as DDs in the same way other classes do, you'll have to give us some parts of the other classes' toolkits in place of our many tanking-related skills and passives - namely, above all else in my view, some buff to Crit Chance or Crit Damage besides a convenient skill for sourcing Major Savagery/Prophecy:

Sangwyne wrote: »

Please inform us all how a Magicka-based heal that grants Spell Crit and ticks every 5s is useful on a Stamina build. It's not even that great of a heal to begin with on Mag DK; I still don't understand why it has to be the only heal in the game that ticks every 5s instead of every 1 or 2 seconds.

I can't wrap my head around why any DK in No Procrodiil, Mag or Stam, wouldn't have Flames of Oblivion slotted on the same bar as their hardest hitting Direct Damage skills. It makes no sense to me. In my opinion there are enough various healing skills to choose from that Flames of Oblivion's strengths over Camo Hunter or Magelight strongly recommend it be chosen over Cauterize. I don't really play Mag though and I understand if they don't want to slot Resto and want to slot Flames that they're looking at Earthen Heart heals if they want a heal besides Coag, but Flames hits hard and like others have pointed out, it somewhat addresses the lack of "delayed burst" in the DK kit. By all means I may be missing something, but if any DKs can explain to me why they like Camo Hunter or Magelight over Flames besides their Detect functions, please do.

Sangwyne wrote: »

5% HP regen? Come on man, how can you seriously look at that and think it's decent?

Read my post again, I said it should at least be doubled.

Sangwyne wrote: »

Why are we comparing Ultimates to regular skills? Take Flight is solid as the only gapcloser that has its range boosted in PvP, but like you mentioned, it's been nerfed and if the range was reduced by even 1m it would be a lot worse. I really wish DK didn't have to be kept so weak just to balance around one skill, an Ultimate, that's only used in PvP. If you could only pick one regular skill, Blastbones, Spirit Guardian, Betty Netch, Arctic Blast, Scorch, Haunting Curse, Streak, Shadowy Disguise, Dark Cloak, Mirage or even Focus blow anything DK has out of the water, I'd give up any single DK skill in a heartbeat for any of those in PvP.

Ok so you meant "DK has no good non-ult Skills", that's a different point. I meant you can slot 1 skill and 1 skill only. Would you rather go around Leaping everything or Heavy Attacking with Spirit Mender or Netch up? I also think Noxious Breath and Venomous Claw are very good skills within their categories of DoTs/debuffs, but we seem to be in a Direct Damage meta. Still, these skills are working quite well for me to maintain pressure, as part of a group, in No Procrodiil, which ultimately is what DKs are best at, in my opinion, a pressure-inducing tank for small groups that picks off any would-be fleeing enemies with Leap.

Urzigurumash

Everybody wants their class to do it all, but what is the point of a Nightblade if it's not OP 1v1? What is the point of a DK if it's not obnoxiously indestructible?

This is why I encourage DKs to reject this externally-imposed existential crisis of being a sub-par pure DD and accept that we're at least better at being a half-tank/half-DD than any of the other 3 non-DLC classes.

oscarovegren

MagDKs classkit is perfect for meleefights. The issue is mobility which can be addressed by making protective scale morphs the following:

Protective plate: snare removal + 4 sec snare immunity + major expedition and -50% projectile dmg taken (simply RaT but less projectile dmg instead of minor force). Current morph has no snare removal and only 2 sec snare immunity which is very underperforming

Dragon fire scales: snare removal + 4 sec snare immunity + -50% projectile dmg taken and current flame dmg on taking projectile dmg. Simply adding snare removal to the morph but NOT major exp as protective plate

For inhale morphs I would which for slightly higher damage tooltips and make one of them poison/physical dmg (or scale with highest offensive stat). StamDK lacks some kind of delayed burst and one of these abilities would fit well with how stamDK plays

Sangwyne

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Ok so you meant "DK has no good non-ult Skills", that's a different point. I meant you can slot 1 skill and 1 skill only. Would you rather go around Leaping everything or Heavy Attacking with Spirit Mender or Netch up? I also think Noxious Breath and Venomous Claw are very good skills within their categories of DoTs/debuffs, but we seem to be in a Direct Damage meta. Still, these skills are working quite well for me to maintain pressure, as part of a group, in No Procrodiil, which ultimately is what DKs are best at, in my opinion, a pressure-inducing tank for small groups that picks off any would-be fleeing enemies with Leap.

I mentioned at the beginning of my post that comparing an Ultimate doesn't count. What's the point of spending all this time to think up a convoluted hypothetical situation where DK is actually good when the actual reality is completely different? If you could only slot one skill, everyone would just take an ultimate, but as it stands now, anyone can slot ten skills, with zero cooldowns, and use them all together, but may only use one Ult at a time and even then only when it's charged. DK has to take more non-class skills than practically any other class just to compete, simply because its class kit doesn't provide much in the way of anything. No purge, no delayed burst, no execute, no pets, no free skills, no Stam spammable, probably the worst healing in the game, and we have to give up a potential offensive window and use our Ultimates off cooldown for resources just to still have less sustain than every other class? Why? Why can't the class just have the same basic tools that every other class gets access to? Where exactly does DK shine? In hypothetical situations only?

Hotdog_23

oscarovegren wrote: »

MagDKs classkit is perfect for meleefights. The issue is mobility which can be addressed by making protective scale morphs the following:

Protective plate: snare removal + 4 sec snare immunity + major expedition and -50% projectile dmg taken (simply RaT but less projectile dmg instead of minor force). Current morph has no snare removal and only 2 sec snare immunity which is very underperforming

Dragon fire scales: snare removal + 4 sec snare immunity + -50% projectile dmg taken and current flame dmg on taking projectile dmg. Simply adding snare removal to the morph but NOT major exp as protective plate

For inhale morphs I would which for slightly higher damage tooltips and make one of them poison/physical dmg (or scale with highest offensive stat). StamDK lacks some kind of delayed burst and one of these abilities would fit well with how stamDK plays

Inhale needs a slightly higher damage to compare to other burst skill compared to the new classes and a cost reduction.

Posted in another thread.

Let’s compare Subterranean Assault to deep breath. Both delayed burst skills.

Subterranean Assault
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Radius: 20 meters
Cost: 2066 Stamina
Skill description
Stir a group of shalk that attack after 3 seconds, dealing 4264 Poison Damage to enemies in front of you. After the shalk complete their attack, they burrow again for 3 seconds and then resurface again, dealing 4264 Poison Damage to enemies in front of you.
New effect
Converts to a Stamina ability and deals Poison Damage. The shalk burrow after attacking, and attack again after a delay.

Deep Breath
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Radius: 8 meters
Cost: 4050 Magicka
Skill description
Channel draconic energy to suck in the air around you, dealing 870 Magic Damage to nearby enemies and healing you for 100% of the damage caused. Any enemy hit that is casting is interrupted, set Off Balance, and stunned for 2 seconds. After 2.5 seconds, you exhale fire, dealing 2249 Flame Damage to nearby enemies.
New effect
Initial hit interrupts enemies that are casting. Final explosion damage increased.


Subterranean Assault cost almost 50% less then Deep Breath and does almost twice as much damage as Deep breath and can be preloaded until Deep breath. Plus, Subterranean Assault has a 20 meter range vs. 8 for deep breath and the 2nd cast is free. So much for standardized skills. Inhale and it's morphed need to be able to preload theses' as well for them to be effective.

Just for fun and giggles here is Necro’s delayed homer missile skill compares.

Blighted Blastbones
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: Maximum range: 28 meters, Radius: 6 meters
Cost: 2295 Stamina
Skill description
Summon a decaying skeleton from the ground after 2.5 seconds. The skeleton runs after the target and explodes when it gets close to them, dealing 4737 Disease Damage to all enemies nearby and applying Major Defile to them for 4 seconds, reducing their healing received and Health Recovery by 16% Creates a corpse on death.
New effect
Converts into a Stamina ability and deals Disease Damage. Reduces healing received on enemies hit.

Stalking Blastbones
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: Maximum range: 28 meters, Radius: 6 meters
Cost: 2700 Magicka
Skill description
Summon a flaming skeleton from the ground after 2.5 seconds. The skeleton runs after the target and explodes when it gets close to them, dealing 3600 Flame Damage to all enemies nearby. Every second the skeleton spends chasing its target increases the damage of the explosion by 10%, up to a maximum of 50% more damage. Creates a corpse on death.
New effect
The skeleton deals more damage the longer it chases the target.


Don't know about you but I think I can spot a little bit difference in new class vs. old classes.


Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS stop the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

oscarovegren

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

oscarovegren wrote: »

MagDKs classkit is perfect for meleefights. The issue is mobility which can be addressed by making protective scale morphs the following:

Protective plate: snare removal + 4 sec snare immunity + major expedition and -50% projectile dmg taken (simply RaT but less projectile dmg instead of minor force). Current morph has no snare removal and only 2 sec snare immunity which is very underperforming

Dragon fire scales: snare removal + 4 sec snare immunity + -50% projectile dmg taken and current flame dmg on taking projectile dmg. Simply adding snare removal to the morph but NOT major exp as protective plate

For inhale morphs I would which for slightly higher damage tooltips and make one of them poison/physical dmg (or scale with highest offensive stat). StamDK lacks some kind of delayed burst and one of these abilities would fit well with how stamDK plays

Inhale needs a slightly higher damage to compare to other burst skill compared to the new classes and a cost reduction.

Posted in another thread.

Let’s compare Subterranean Assault to deep breath. Both delayed burst skills.

Subterranean Assault
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Radius: 20 meters
Cost: 2066 Stamina
Skill description
Stir a group of shalk that attack after 3 seconds, dealing 4264 Poison Damage to enemies in front of you. After the shalk complete their attack, they burrow again for 3 seconds and then resurface again, dealing 4264 Poison Damage to enemies in front of you.
New effect
Converts to a Stamina ability and deals Poison Damage. The shalk burrow after attacking, and attack again after a delay.

Deep Breath
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Radius: 8 meters
Cost: 4050 Magicka
Skill description
Channel draconic energy to suck in the air around you, dealing 870 Magic Damage to nearby enemies and healing you for 100% of the damage caused. Any enemy hit that is casting is interrupted, set Off Balance, and stunned for 2 seconds. After 2.5 seconds, you exhale fire, dealing 2249 Flame Damage to nearby enemies.
New effect
Initial hit interrupts enemies that are casting. Final explosion damage increased.


Subterranean Assault cost almost 50% less then Deep Breath and does almost twice as much damage as Deep breath and can be preloaded until Deep breath. Plus, Subterranean Assault has a 20 meter range vs. 8 for deep breath and the 2nd cast is free. So much for standardized skills. Inhale and it's morphed need to be able to preload theses' as well for them to be effective.

Just for fun and giggles here is Necro’s delayed homer missile skill compares.

Blighted Blastbones
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: Maximum range: 28 meters, Radius: 6 meters
Cost: 2295 Stamina
Skill description
Summon a decaying skeleton from the ground after 2.5 seconds. The skeleton runs after the target and explodes when it gets close to them, dealing 4737 Disease Damage to all enemies nearby and applying Major Defile to them for 4 seconds, reducing their healing received and Health Recovery by 16% Creates a corpse on death.
New effect
Converts into a Stamina ability and deals Disease Damage. Reduces healing received on enemies hit.

Stalking Blastbones
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Enemy
Range: Maximum range: 28 meters, Radius: 6 meters
Cost: 2700 Magicka
Skill description
Summon a flaming skeleton from the ground after 2.5 seconds. The skeleton runs after the target and explodes when it gets close to them, dealing 3600 Flame Damage to all enemies nearby. Every second the skeleton spends chasing its target increases the damage of the explosion by 10%, up to a maximum of 50% more damage. Creates a corpse on death.
New effect
The skeleton deals more damage the longer it chases the target.


Don't know about you but I think I can spot a little bit difference in new class vs. old classes.


Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS stop the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

I totally agree!

Urzigurumash

Sangwyne wrote: »

I mentioned at the beginning of my post that comparing an Ultimate doesn't count. What's the point of spending all this time to think up a convoluted hypothetical situation where DK is actually good when the actual reality is completely different?

You bade us to change your mind regarding whether StamDK had any good skills, that was the point of this silly hypothetical. I don't want a pet, Purges should be deleted from the game, and D Swing and Executioner are all we've ever needed for a Spammable and an Execute. I'm pretty sure our self-healing is better than StamPlar or StamBlade, and it's at least as good as StamSorc if you're in 3 or more pieces of Heavy.

Is there a reason to run StamDK over StamDen? I don't really know, but come to Xbox NA BGs if you're think we're completely worthless. Is there a reason to run StamDK over StamCro? Defensively, yes - once you're out of corpses and there aren't any negative effects on you, anyhow.

In the meantime tune into the thread "Returning StamDK" to continue this conversation. This post was supposed to be about DK Mobility, and my response to the general topic is - We shouldn't need it, we should be as good as anybody at facetanking instead of evading. Facetanking is as unpopular with evasive classes as purges are with me, but you have to shrug off their biases and find the Tao of being a DK, and realize that what they hate about our toolkit is where its strengths lie.

As for finding our strengths, let's not pretend like Crystal Weapon and the Stam-scaled Clannfear heal have always been around. StamSorc is our cousin class, MagDKs our brothers and sisters, it is only against these classes I compare us.

Urzigurumash

I see people say here and there "Here's another DK trying to justify why they're too lazy to roll a StamDen" - point of us coming on here and explaining why this class isn't complete garbage is that we like the nature of the class, we like the purpose of this class - we don't want the whole toolkit removed from the game the way Proc Sets were, just so that it's rebuilt into a snake-themed NB that nobody really wanted. "But Bone Pirate isn't a proc set..." Yes, it is. They were all proc sets. Let that sink in like my 13th and 14th seconds of Venomous Claw. You know, Monkey's Paw and all, so let's resist the temptation to use hyperbole to get our points across.

Sangwyne

Urzigurumash wrote: »

You bade us to change your mind regarding whether StamDK had any good skills, that was the point of this silly hypothetical.

The point was that DK is completely barebones in terms of useful skills. I don't particularly think Take Flight is all that much better than Dawnbreaker OS for example, but yeah I should have probably clarified that I wasn't talking about Ultimates.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I don't want a pet,

Don't really want one either, but the point was the class lacks the tools every other class has.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Purges should be deleted from the game,

Mmm maybe just toned down in PvP, but yeah currently they're too strong and allow certain classes to ignore DOTS entirely.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

and D Swing and Executioner are all we've ever needed for a Spammable and an Execute.

Every class has access to those. Bringing up non-class skills isn't a good argument for DK being strong.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I'm pretty sure our self-healing is better than StamPlar or StamBlade, and it's at least as good as StamSorc if you're in 3 or more pieces of Heavy.

Pretty sure it's not. Every Stam DK guide I can find mandates taking Vigor but doesn't make use of any DK heals, whereas Stamplar has Repentance/Ritual and Stamblade has Leeching Strikes. Dark Cloak is also really solid. Stamsorc has Dark Deal, Critical Surge, and an incredible burst heal in Clannfear, it's not remotely comparable.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Is there a reason to run StamDK over StamDen? I don't really know, but come to Xbox NA BGs if you're think we're completely worthless.

Never said the class is completely worthless, but it does need buffs. I don't hate the class, I main it, I just want it to be viable. But please don't tell me that you believe Stam DK is even remotely comparable to Stam Warden, the King of PvP.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/568150/pvp-tierlist-for-flames-of-ambition/p1

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I see people say here and there "Here's another DK trying to justify why they're too lazy to roll a StamDen" - point of us coming on here and explaining why this class isn't complete garbage is that we like the nature of the class, we like the purpose of this class - we don't want the whole toolkit removed from the game the way Proc Sets were, just so that it's rebuilt into a snake-themed NB that nobody really wanted.

I like the class, I like the theme, I really do, and I wouldn't play it if it was complete garbage. That doesn't mean I can't acknowledge the glaring issues that DK has. I don't want DK to be remade into a sad imitation of another class, but DK is clearly suffering, and sitting back and pretending everything is fine isn't going to help.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

This post was supposed to be about DK Mobility, and my response to the general topic is - We shouldn't need it, we should be as good as anybody at facetanking instead of evading.

Sure, we shouldn't need it, and we should also be decent at brawling- but we aren't.

ealdwin

Sangwyne wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Purges should be deleted from the game,

Mmm maybe just toned down in PvP, but yeah currently they're too strong and allow certain classes to ignore DOTS entirely.

Honestly, they weren't too much of a problem when only one class had unique access to them (Templar) and both the Templar purge and the generic one were expensive to cast. The fact that Wardens and Necros have cheap access to them is a problem. Also, they're Templars' primary defense in both PVE and PVP, and a huge boon to running a Templar healer in PVE. The last thing Templars need is further nerfs.

Remove the free purge from Wardens and increase the cost significantly of the Necro purge and call it a day.

- - -

To the topic of this thread, the issue with DKs and mobility is that (A) the class isn't designed to be very mobile. It and Templar were originally meant to be less mobile, more "defensive" classes. Which comes to the next issue, (B) that combat in general has shifted away from supporting the "stand your ground" strategy, at least in the way DKs and Templars originally were meant to.

The funny thing is that Necros have zero mobility boosts in their class kit. They have the pull-armor, but that's it. The question then becomes, how are Necros able to survive and be competitive over the past few PVP metas, and what lessons could be learned that could then be applied to DKs. But, in a manner that makes sense within the class and doesn't make them just a copy of another class.