problematic escape tools

montjie

Just an observation
The same people that say shade/cloak/bol/streak is just fine and class unique and whatever else excuse they can come up with are the same people that were complaining when dks wings were reflecting.
Impressive how they can stay straight faced while doing so.

Chilly-McFreeze

montjie wrote: »

Just an observation
The same people that say shade/cloak/bol/streak is just fine and class unique and whatever else excuse they can come up with are the same people that were complaining when dks wings were reflecting.
Impressive how they can stay straight faced while doing so.

Just an obersavtion.
It's not the same people. There is just some overlapping. But what fits the narrative best jumps to ones eye.
And I say that as someone who thinks Cloak + Shade is fine, BoL is a bit overtuned and Wings need a buff.

montjie

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

show previous quotes

montjie wrote: »

Just an observation
The same people that say shade/cloak/bol/streak is just fine and class unique and whatever else excuse they can come up with are the same people that were complaining when dks wings were reflecting.
Impressive how they can stay straight faced while doing so.

Just an obersavtion.
It's not the same people. There is just some overlapping. But what fits the narrative best jumps to ones eye.
And I say that as someone who thinks Cloak + Shade is fine, BoL is a bit overtuned and Wings need a buff.

Well not in the literal sense no. It was more of a lazily constructed broad statement. The point I tried to make is it was mostly magsorcs and nightblades that were complaining about wings when wings reflected projectiles. Mainly because it offered no counterplay, which is a fair complaint to have. So I find it hilarious, in an ironic way, its mostly magsorcs and nightblades responding to complaints regarding some of their class abilities having little to no counterplay with..noo, no problem here, all is fine, the class needs uniqueness, other classes just need to adapt etc. Its almost as if theyre a bit hypocritical

divnyi

montjie wrote: »

So I find it hilarious, in an ironic way, its mostly magsorcs and nightblades responding to complaints regarding some of their class abilities having little to no counterplay with..noo, no problem here, all is fine, the class needs uniqueness, other classes just need to adapt etc. Its almost as if theyre a bit hypocritical

Because there is a glaring difference between defensive skill that makes you immune and very good escape tools. One allows you to stand and win, other allows you to avoid death.

And it's not like you can't beat cloak+shade. Can burst NB before they escape, can detect their shade before they go, can use stealth detection pots / 12m skill while boosting movement speed. Which I actually do on my heavy attack DK bruiser and it makes NBs sad.

BoL -- well, I'm not against to remove 100% protection, but you need to make this morph competitive with streak somehow, because stun+damage+movetool on one button is way too tempting. Maybe cut length of streak a bit and add a bit length here, idk.

Sanguinor2

divnyi wrote: »

Because there is a glaring difference between defensive skill that makes you immune and very good escape tools. One allows you to stand and win, other allows you to avoid death.

And it's not like you can't beat cloak+shade. Can burst NB before they escape, can detect their shade before they go, can use stealth detection pots / 12m skill while boosting movement speed. Which I actually do on my heavy attack DK bruiser and it makes NBs sad.

BoL -- well, I'm not against to remove 100% protection, but you need to make this morph competitive with streak somehow, because stun+damage+movetool on one button is way too tempting. Maybe cut length of streak a bit and add a bit length here, idk.

What about a skill that makes you immune and is a very good escape tool? Because thats what BoL is.

montjie

divnyi wrote: »

show previous quotes

montjie wrote: »

So I find it hilarious, in an ironic way, its mostly magsorcs and nightblades responding to complaints regarding some of their class abilities having little to no counterplay with..noo, no problem here, all is fine, the class needs uniqueness, other classes just need to adapt etc. Its almost as if theyre a bit hypocritical

Because there is a glaring difference between defensive skill that makes you immune and very good escape tools. One allows you to stand and win, other allows you to avoid death.

And it's not like you can't beat cloak+shade. Can burst NB before they escape, can detect their shade before they go, can use stealth detection pots / 12m skill while boosting movement speed. Which I actually do on my heavy attack DK bruiser and it makes NBs sad.

BoL -- well, I'm not against to remove 100% protection, but you need to make this morph competitive with streak somehow, because stun+damage+movetool on one button is way too tempting. Maybe cut length of streak a bit and add a bit length here, idk.

Isnt escaping the ultimate immunity though? The gymnastics performed here..A-grade.
I like this game. Let me give it a go. Here I go defending wings:
Wings is fine and shade/cloak are op nd needs nerfing because wings just avoids range projectiles while the others allow you to instant escape a situation without any effort put in.

They dont work the same, they dont give the same outcome but all are (very) overtuned abilities. 1 got changed and rightfully so. Why is it so hard to admit the others need adjusting too?

Luede

redspecter23 wrote: »

Disengaging from combat should be a difficult task once engaged. Resetting the fight should be something that happens when one side dies, one side gives up or if you are extremely skilled or lucky enough to leave the battle and not be followed.

thats funny because every Stam Char can reach 200% movement speed easily und mag player wont. whats the problem in excaping a fight, are u angry u cant get 2k ap? Yes shadow image is annoying, but u dont need to engage the tower fight and outside a structure its pointless except of minor maim. Players who run away are not a threat

Chilly-McFreeze

montjie wrote: »

They dont work the same, they dont give the same outcome but all are (very) overtuned abilities. 1 got changed and rightfully so. Why is it so hard to admit the others need adjusting too?

You mean one got crippeld beyound the point of being a staple, class defining ability that's actually worth using - instead of alowing counter play by e.g. treating spells like non-projectiles that aren't even ones, giving it a minimum distance or all the other great ideas that whirled around ever since?

[snip]

DKs won't get better with if remove Bolt Escape, Cloak and Shade. We'd still suffer from underpowered dots, low mobility, barely worthy wings, sustain issues, and if I'd believe the forums, an unbearable lack of burst skills. [snip]

E: some typos

montjie

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

show previous quotes

montjie wrote: »

They dont work the same, they dont give the same outcome but all are (very) overtuned abilities. 1 got changed and rightfully so. Why is it so hard to admit the others need adjusting too?

You mean one got crippeld beyound the point of being a staple, class defining ability that's actually worth using - instead of alowing counter play by e.g. treating spells like non-projectiles that aren't even ones, giving it a minimum distance or all the other great ideas that whirled around ever since?

[snip]

DKs won't get better with if remove Bolt Escape, Cloak and Shade. We'd still suffer from underpowered dots, low mobility, barely worthy wings, sustain issues, and if I'd believe the forums, an unbearable lack of burst skills. [snip]

E: some typos

I never said it was a good change, just that it was a change. The ability had imbalance, efforts were made to clear that imbalance up. That was all i said in that post.

[snip]

Adjustment and removal are two different things. If that was directed to me I dont know where you got the idea I want the abilities gone. I simply would like how they currently work gone. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

divnyi

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

What about a skill that makes you immune and is a very good escape tool? Because thats what BoL is.

I think you overestimate BoL effectiveness.

3s immunity only happens after teleport animation, which itself take like full second (and you get hit while you move).

Getting 1s animation + 3s immunity, you can maybe spam it every third GCD to make you completely immune, but practically you would never do it for several reasons:

1. You need to aim teleport, and not always there are good targets.
2. It costs more each use. And don't get started on "but conversion" - you can't do damage while you are doing conversion, thus "stand and win" will not happen.
3. Conversion is bash'able.

Long story short, it doesn't compare to wings directly, while having same mechanics.

I tried to use BoL yesterday on full-healer in BGs, switched back to Streak, and had better results. Comes out, it's easier to escape when opponent has to waste 1 second for stun break, than maybe negating projectiles on the point where you land, while 70% opponents are melee.

Noctus

divnyi wrote: »

show previous quotes

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

What about a skill that makes you immune and is a very good escape tool? Because thats what BoL is.

I tried to use BoL yesterday on full-healer in BGs, switched back to Streak, and had better results. Comes out, it's easier to escape when opponent has to waste 1 second for stun break, than maybe negating projectiles on the point where you land, while 70% opponents are melee.

its not the point that its fair against stamina users. the point is magicka users vs bol. if ur in a match full of stamina users ofc it wont matter but bol is shutting of entire playstyles like dk wings did back in the day but its not juts that. wings allowed beams to go through while bol negates everything ranged.

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules. If you see a post that is baiting in nature do not engage it with further hostility and instead report it for the moderators to review.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

Chilly-McFreeze

montjie wrote: »

I simply would like how they currently work gone.

So, how you'd want it to be. Just out of curiosity.

Noctus

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

show previous quotes

montjie wrote: »

I simply would like how they currently work gone.

So, how you'd want it to be. Just out of curiosity.

i want it to work like spell shield. it lets through heavy attacks and beams etc. but catches real projectiles like snipe, chrystal frag, funnel health. this is a reasonable suggestion isnt it ?