Your daily “ Nerf malacath” thread

Ythotha

25% damage increase equals to 70% crit damage with 50% crit chance in pvp (everyone has base 20% crit reduction)
Except you need to sacrifice a lot to get that amount of crit in nocp and battlegrounds. It has no drawback and crimson twilight, wrath of elements builds are flooding eu bgs which are VERY unfun to play against.

ESO_Nightingale

Ythotha wrote: »

25% damage increase equals to 70% crit damage with 50% crit chance in pvp (everyone has base 20% crit reduction)
Except you need to sacrifice a lot to get that amount of crit in nocp and battlegrounds. It has no drawback and crimson twilight, wrath of elements builds are flooding eu bgs which are VERY unfun to play against.

i still hate malacath.

Jameson18

With the armor changes and development, it needs to be brought down to about 15-20%.

I've been testing on and off the difference with and without it. You need 50%+ crit with at least one 10% crit damage modifier, 20% in pvp, to match it in its current form.

Have tested on parsing dummies and pvp/dummy dueling.

Ythotha

Jameson18 wrote: »

With the armor changes and development, it needs to be brought down to about 15-20%.

I've been testing on and off the difference with and without it. You need 50%+ crit with at least one 10% crit damage modifier, 20% in pvp, to match it in its current form.

Have tested on parsing dummies and pvp/dummy dueling.

You dont even need testing in real time, it is just highschool math.

u got 100 damage
u got malacath 25% more so 1.25 multiplier
u hit 10 times

10x100x1.25=1250 damage

u got 100 damage
50% crit and 70% crit damage (20% crit res on everyone so %50 crit damage effective)
u hit 10 times

5 hits are crits that do 150 damage and other 5 is regular hits that do 100 so:

5x150+5x100= 1250

So instead of building for crit, you could have spend those stats put into crit at anything else by getting malacath

You can literally use a first bonus penetration monster set and slap malacath into ANY build that is not focused on solely crit and you will get more damage. Not to mention impen trait exists and you cant crit on shields.
Send the guy that put this in the game back to highschool for .sake

To make it even remotely acceptable it needs to go down to 15% and 15% is very generous still...

StarOfElyon

Yeah but how will ZOS sell Greymoor if they nerf it?

Wuuffyy

Nah 15% is horrid. 25 is good. Interaction with procs needs to go. Crit needs to be good again. And options away from crit need to exist.

Ryuvain

Malacath is still dumb. If procs return it's gonna destroy cyro again.

Urzigurumash

Here's an Orc who thinks it should be buffed to 2500% to remind you that

- besides its interaction with procs, it of course has to provide more damage for a build that isn't specced into Crit than not wearing it, otherwise there would be no point for it whatsoever. Just spreading out the damage and freeing it from RNG is insufficient, since it prevents the user from wearing a both-bar 5/5/2 setup, or another Mythic, etc.

- regarding its interaction with procs, Caluurion's and Hunter's Venom remain as popular as any damage proc sets, and since they can't be buffed by Malacath, it isn't Malacath's interaction with procs which is the sole driver of the popularity of damage proc sets - rather it is the high tooltips on damage procs themselves

My Orc roleplay prohibits me from taking a reasonable approach to the matter, but I think all can agree those two above statements are reasonable.

Sangwyne

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Here's an Orc who thinks it should be buffed to 2500% to remind you that

- besides its interaction with procs, it of course has to provide more damage for a build that isn't specced into Crit than not wearing it, otherwise there would be no point for it whatsoever. Just spreading out the damage and freeing it from RNG is insufficient, since it prevents the user from wearing a both-bar 5/5/2 setup, or another Mythic, etc.

Of course it should be stronger on a build with no crit than nothing, but please realize that the current meta for crit builds after the recent nerf is wearing two entire critical chance sets (Medusa and Sorrow), along with 7 pieces of Medium/Light for their crit passives, with full Divines and Shadow/Thief Mundus, using Precise on weapon, popping a Spell Power Potion and slotting Backstabber/Fighting Finesse CP stars just to squeeze out enough critical chance to make running a crit build viable, and even then there are plenty of counters to it in PvP, like the baseline 20% critical resistance, Impenetrable, and the abundance of critical resistance sets like Wizard's Riposte, Impregnable, or Transmutation. Meanwhile, Malacath takes... one slot? And still allows you to critically heal? With zero sets to directly counter it like for crit? And also buffs the damage on proc sets, which critical strikes never have? Look man, it's not balanced.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

- regarding its interaction with procs, Caluurion's and Hunter's Venom remain as popular as any damage proc sets, and since they can't be buffed by Malacath, it isn't Malacath's interaction with procs which is the sole driver of the popularity of damage proc sets - rather it is the high tooltips on damage procs themselves

They can be and in fact are buffed by Malacath. Malacath provides a universal 25% damage boost to everything except Oblivion damage.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

My Orc roleplay prohibits me from taking a reasonable approach to the matter, but I think all can agree those two above statements are reasonable.

I think roleplaying is great, I really do, and enjoy seeing people indulge in it in-game. That doesn't mean I think it should dictate game balance. Please man, be reasonable here, I know you know Malacath is busted.

Firstmep

Jameson18 wrote: »

With the armor changes and development, it needs to be brought down to about 15-20%.

I've been testing on and off the difference with and without it. You need 50%+ crit with at least one 10% crit damage modifier, 20% in pvp, to match it in its current form.

Have tested on parsing dummies and pvp/dummy dueling.

This, they have been constantly nerfing crit chance across the board, so malacath needs to be adjusted, and make it not effect procsets, same way pale order doesnt.

A new chapter is coming out too, so no reason to keep this item OP anymore...

Ythotha

Sangwyne wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Here's an Orc who thinks it should be buffed to 2500% to remind you that

- besides its interaction with procs, it of course has to provide more damage for a build that isn't specced into Crit than not wearing it, otherwise there would be no point for it whatsoever. Just spreading out the damage and freeing it from RNG is insufficient, since it prevents the user from wearing a both-bar 5/5/2 setup, or another Mythic, etc.

Of course it should be stronger on a build with no crit than nothing, but please realize that the current meta for crit builds after the recent nerf is wearing two entire critical chance sets (Medusa and Sorrow), along with 7 pieces of Medium/Light for their crit passives, with full Divines and Shadow/Thief Mundus, using Precise on weapon, popping a Spell Power Potion and slotting Backstabber/Fighting Finesse CP stars just to squeeze out enough critical chance to make running a crit build viable, and even then there are plenty of counters to it in PvP, like the baseline 20% critical resistance, Impenetrable, and the abundance of critical resistance sets like Wizard's Riposte, Impregnable, or Transmutation. Meanwhile, Malacath takes... one slot? And still allows you to critically heal? With zero sets to directly counter it like for crit? And also buffs the damage on proc sets, which critical strikes never have? Look man, it's not balanced.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

- regarding its interaction with procs, Caluurion's and Hunter's Venom remain as popular as any damage proc sets, and since they can't be buffed by Malacath, it isn't Malacath's interaction with procs which is the sole driver of the popularity of damage proc sets - rather it is the high tooltips on damage procs themselves

They can be and in fact are buffed by Malacath. Malacath provides a universal 25% damage boost to everything except Oblivion damage.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

My Orc roleplay prohibits me from taking a reasonable approach to the matter, but I think all can agree those two above statements are reasonable.

I think roleplaying is great, I really do, and enjoy seeing people indulge in it in-game. That doesn't mean I think it should dictate game balance. Please man, be reasonable here, I know you know Malacath is busted.

I couldnt have said it better

If you look at my post you will see that i do not mention proc sets at all related to malacath because that is not the root of this problem. That is just a different problem on its own.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Urzigurumash

Sangwyne wrote: »

They can be and in fact are buffed by Malacath. Malacath provides a universal 25% damage boost to everything except Oblivion damage.

Those two damage proc sets would be buffed by Malacath, but they require a Crit to proc, so they can't be buffed by Malacath.

Otherwise about the 25% value, my point was that you can't expect to get an overall 25% boost to damage from Crit without something allocated towards either Crit Chance or Crit Damage, or else Malacath wouldn't make sense.

What sort of percentile increase to damage can we assign to a 2nd Monster Piece, being the thing I think most players drop when they put on a Mythic? I guess 5% is easy since that's what Slimecraw gives, although we probably all get a little more than that out of Balogh / Domihaus / Kena.

So, I've always assumed around 40% Crit Chance / 40% Crit Damage, or 20% overall, Crit and Malacath are equalized, since you can get that extra 5% from the 2nd Monster Piece. In the absence of damage procs, anyhow.

The other consideration is that Malacath puts a lower ceiling on your maximal possible damage output than speccing into Crit does.

Urzigurumash

Anyhow, I wasn't really getting into the numbers to justify Malacath's value, just pointing out that of course it must be stronger than Crit on an otherwise equivalent build, so keep that in mind when you're going over the numbers. I don't know what the right value for it is, there's some grey area there about how do we relate 50 Champion Points to 1 Item Slot, etc. These relations can be estimated but I haven't tried to.

Sergykid

Sangwyne wrote: »

Of course it should be stronger on a build with no crit than nothing, but please realize that the current meta for crit builds after the recent nerf is wearing two entire critical chance sets (Medusa and Sorrow), along with 7 pieces of Medium/Light for their crit passives, with full Divines and Shadow/Thief Mundus, using Precise on weapon, popping a Spell Power Potion and slotting Backstabber/Fighting Finesse CP stars just to squeeze out enough critical chance to make running a crit build viable, and even then there are plenty of counters to it in PvP, like the baseline 20% critical resistance, Impenetrable, and the abundance of critical resistance sets like Wizard's Riposte, Impregnable, or Transmutation. Meanwhile, Malacath takes... one slot? And still allows you to critically heal? With zero sets to directly counter it like for crit? And also buffs the damage on proc sets, which critical strikes never have? Look man, it's not balanced.

exactly, it gives too much for too little drawbacks. It should have been equal to Major Berserk, but it remained unchanged after the buffs nerfs.
also talked about it here
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/555980/is-it-that-difficult-to-get-explanations-from-the-combat-balance-team

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Yeah but how will ZOS sell Greymoor if they nerf it?

yes, this greed is gross. With the next chapter drop and their "adjustments" to proc sets, it will be nerfed so you will be the all new chapter that will give you other kind of advantage.