Magsorc heavy attack DPS build in Flames update

Draxund

I really prefer heavy attack DPS builds on my magsorc for two reasons: 1) I like the look and feel; 2) an issue with my fingers makes LA weaving very difficult. I've seen some recent attempts by Hack with his shock master and volcanix builds, but they require staying in melee range (i.e., Noble Dualist) which I just HATE doing as a sorc. Also, I'm not looking for top-tier DPS here, just something that's respectable in normal and vet dungeons (I don't even do trials). Can anyone recommend a current setup that relies on HA but won't get me laughed out of dungeons? Thank you so much!

Sangwyne

Undaunted Unweaver works quite well with its counterpart, Undaunted Infiltrator. The latter is a Stamina set though, so it's not exactly ideal if your heart is set on playing Magsorc. If you care more about the HA playstyle than the actual choice of class though, check out DK, which gets 50% increased Heavy attack damage for 30 seconds with Molten Armaments, and try using the Maelstrom Crushing Wall staff on back bar (so that you get the full benefit of Undaunted Unweaver and Infiltrator on front bar) to gain even more damage on Heavy attacks. Good luck!

GreenHere

I used to run Infallible Aether with Undaunted Infiltrator + Ilambris & vMA Lightning Staff on my Sorc, and it was pretty great at the time. Nothing that would impress the meta chasers, but I was getting well over 20K DPS with no pets and only keeping 3 skills up.

Things have changed some since, and I've been on a different build for a long time now, so I can't say how well it works here and now though.

I'll hop on the PTS and see if I can recreate it. I've been meaning to see how easy such a build is to pull off lately anyway.

brb

GreenHere

Well, it looks like it works even better than before, honestly. I just got over 28K on the 3 mil skeleton multiple times in a row, with a super sloppy rotation (if you can even call it that). Over 42K on the Iron Atro, but I was having some fps drops and lag issues when fighting it today for some reason... so safe to say it would normally be a bit higher.

Here's the setup I used.

• Skill Bar :: Bound Aegis, Inner Light, Critical Surge, Lightning Flood, Unstable Wall of Storms // Shooting Star
• Back Bar :: Elemental Susceptibility, and that's it; cast it once, and never need to switch bars again (per target, anyway)
  
• Undaunted Infiltrator on the Head & Chest (for most armor value) and three Jewels (each transmuted to Infused, with Spell Damage glyphs)
• 5 Infallible Mage (aka Infallible Aether, it has that weird naming scheme; both are the same set -- just don't confuse with the Wise Mage set) on the remaining body slots
• All armor Divines trait, with the Apprentice mundus
• Perfected Maelstrom Lightning Staff, Infused + Shock glyph (Weapon Damage also gave good results, but Zap glyph is cooler) (The non-Perfected version from Normal Maelstrom Arena will still be very good, if needed)
  
• Blue food that gives Max Health + Max Magicka (because who needs regen when you just hold the heavy attack literally all the time?)
• You don't even need potions, because you have all the "standard" magDPS buffs on your skill bar. So you can use other fancy pots, or none at all! (I used none at all for this testing)
• I can't prove it empirically, but I'm pretty sure shouting vulgarities at bad guys while you're fighting them increases your DPS by at least 5%. It might be even more if the neighbors hear you, but I haven't tested this part that thoroughly... yet.

This test was all done with all gold stuff, but the results in purple (aside from the Maelstrom staff; always gold out your weapons!) should be pretty close.
I also fully maxed out these CP nodes for my testing... Which will cost you 520 blue CP (or 1560 CP total), so you'll likely need to prioritize and fill in stars as you level up. I know it's sort of cheating, but I wanted to see the upper potential.

- Fighting Finesse, Deadly Aim, Biting Aura, Thaumaturge (those were the 4 slotted stars I used, but others might be more optimal; I was just testing quickly)
- Precision, Eldritch Insight, Piercing, Flawless Ritual, War Mage
- Quick Recovery (only 10 points to unlock these next ones...), Preparation, Hardy, Elemental Aegis

And here was my rotation:

1. I applied Elemental Susceptibility from the back bar, then switched
2. Pre-cast your Critical Surge, then recast whenever its timer is <2s
3. Dropped a Shooting Star ultimate on that fool! >:D
4. (and do it again whenever it's ready, if you're not recasting other skills that're close to ending)
5. Unstable Wall of Storms, recast when <2s
6. Lightning Flood, recast when <2s
7. Held down the Heavy Attack trigger, and literally never let go for the rest of the test. All recasting of skills were just fired off in between heavy attacks (which is not optimal, I'm just trying to simulate maximum laziness or minimal hand capability for the testing)
8. Eat popcorn with other hand (I play on a controller, so yes I really do this with one hand because I can)

And that's it. Looks like I might well dust off the ol' heavy attack setup for days where I'm feeling lazy or just not up to more rigorous rotations and whatnot. This heavy attack build has never been so strong!

Also, all of this was a little off-the-cuff, and I'm no expert. I would not be at all surprised if this could be optimized further with different food, CP allocations, glyph/trait combos, etc.

Hope this helps! Thank you for coming to my TED Talk!

GreenHere

Forgot to note above: I dropped the Monster set for the sake of making a viable one-bar build (or dang close to it, anyway), but if you can get ahold of an Undaunted Infiltrator Inferno Staff (good luck! took me 97656782368732497859017 runs to get mine, true fact!) you can eek out more damage if you make the setup more complicated. Such as...

• Infiltrator staff back bar, but you have to switch every 10 seconds to keep up the set's buff
• Put skills on your back bar that help out for the situation you're in, such as: Crushing Shock (ranged Interrupt), Mystic Orb (damage + synergy for team), Crystal Frags (for damage + Minor Prophecy for whole group), Daedric Mines (if you hate Frag proccing like me), Barbed Trap (for Minor Force; if you can manage to work this into your rotation then Undaunted Unweaver might be a better set choice for you, but I didn't test that), etc. etc.
• Use a Monster set of your choice, such as Zaan (best for single target in close range), Skoria (arguably best for range), Ilambris (undisputed best for style if you're sticking with the Lightning theme!), or even just mix/match two separate 1-piece bonuses.
• Don't forget to change your Chest slot! I sometimes switch between Monster set / no-Monster set loadouts, and forget the Chest slot and wonder why my damage is off. If you're dumb like me, here's your friendly reminder!

mocap

instead of Infiltrator you can use craftable Torugs pact with Infallible Aether.

Make sure to enchant both staves with infused damage glyphs. Shock damage glyph on back bar (ma/vma stave), and fire on front bar. Shadow mundus. Zaan monster set. Your Unstable wall + Zaan + Heavy Attack must do 28k dps by their own (3kk dumm).
With Infiltrator you will get a bit better results, though farming this stave + jewerly is painful.

Also with Torugs and Sorc you can make super awesome 3 in 1 build for vanila vet dungeons (35k dps + self sustain tank + group healer + group sustain). Get Inner Beast, instead of Rage for taunt. Also Ele Drain, Mystic Orb, Matriarch.

Firstmep

I think the loss of the heavy attack cp was a major blow for pve heavy attack builds, especially since a large portion of its damage comes from flat dmg sets like vma staff, undaunted sets etc.

karekiz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgWdQA1MDTM&amp;ab_channel=t3hasiangod

GreenHere

@karekiz , thanks for the relevant video! I almost didn't wanna watch it for being so long, but that guy often has insightful content so I did go through the whole thing. Good share!

Literally nothing that he says about Undaunted Infiltrator is wrong, and I can't dispute any of his obviously valid points individually. (Except maybe the difficulty of farming UI, since my setup only requires Head, Shoulders, & Jewels; which can easily be done on normal and isn't much to grind for, imo.) But the problem with his analysis is that it's correct for high-end players who can already crank out good mechanical performance to begin with.

His points about Infallible Aether kind of run into the same problem. He's talking about the high-end, optimized-group-oriented situations, which is seldom what the people asking for "easy DPS, please" builds are looking for. And while the difficulty of farming stuff isn't exactly irrelevant, I think it's a little unfair to entirely count out sets because they take work to get. Aetherian Archive is a fun & easy Trial as far as I'm concerned (on Normal, at least), and the IA stuff is worth the ~3-5 runs you'd need to get all the body pieces that people usually are happy to give away. But his point about Minor Vulnerability is more true than ever; it wasn't a rare buff before, but now it's downright common. Having literal 100% uptime on it with IA is nice, but far from essential.

The trouble with all that, though, is that Mother's Sorrow, Medusa, et al just don't perform as well in these "low-end" easy peasy builds. I could not find a setup that got more DPS with just lightning heavy attacks and a few simple skill casts than Infallible + Infiltrator. (Not at range, anyway; Noble Duelist might perform better, but I didn't test it since OP & I both prefer being able to stay at range for this kind of build.) I can't claim to have tried everything, but I did test a few of the obvious combos and they all simply don't do as well when working within the confines of, "I want the most DPS for the least effort". Also things like 5-piece + Monster sets & Willpower jewels, CP changes, none of it; I just haven't found a better combo than IA/UI for super simple heavy attack builds. Most of the "better" heavy attack builds I see miss the whole point; they want you to switch bars, juggle 8+ skills, chug pots, etc.

If the focus is on getting the most output for the least input, Infil + Infal is the best combo that I've found. Better setups could well be out there. I would definitely be interested in setups that perform better with the same (minimal) amount of work as my build above calls for, though!

karekiz

GreenHere wrote: »

@karekiz , thanks for the relevant video! I almost didn't wanna watch it for being so long, but that guy often has insightful content so I did go through the whole thing. Good share!

I'll be honest - I posted it as a meme. Proc sets like that are alright even for HM vet clears.

GreenHere

karekiz wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

@karekiz , thanks for the relevant video! I almost didn't wanna watch it for being so long, but that guy often has insightful content so I did go through the whole thing. Good share!

I'll be honest - I posted it as a meme. Proc sets like that are alright even for HM vet clears.

Points for honesty! haha

WrathOfInnos

Heavy attack builds are in a tough place this patch. They were already quite weak, and then Staff Expert CP was removed, reducing heavy attack damage by around 30% (depending how many points were invested). On top of that, off-balance was made useless for all non-heavy attack builds, which means it’s not commonly included as a group buff.

Also, according to another forum thread, all the heavy attack sets were changed to only apply to the final tick of damage with a lightning staff. I haven’t confirmed this one myself, but if true that would be a 75% nerf to these sets that previously affected all 4 ticks. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7168799#Comment_7168799

GreenHere

Sorry to haunt your thread here, @jpdunningub17_ESO , but I've been dinking around on the PTS and got some more potentially worthwhile info for you / anyone who ends up here via Google...


I know this thread was created to ask about Sorc heavy attack builds, but I just tested the setup from my TED Talk above with a Dragonknight. It's pretty great! I was getting well above 33K DPS on the 3 mil skeleton time and again. AND the skill rotation is even easier (if you can imagine!) because of the longer skill durations DKs have!

Check it:

• Replace Bound Aegis (Sorc skill which was only on the bar to provide passive bonuses) with literally any skill you want from the Mages Guild line; Structured Entropy is a decent choice so you have a heal-over-time, but any will do for the passive bonuses
• Keep Inner Light on the bar, just like the Sorc build. Those passive bonuses help a LOT
• Replace Critical Surge (Sorc skill that grants Major Sorcery + excellent healing) with Molten Armaments (which provides the same Major Sorcery buff PLUS a +50% Heavy Attack damage bonus! Offers no healing, though, so be aware of that!)
• Replace Lightning Flood with Eruption (it's stronger and lasts longer, PLUS it has one of the heaviest snares in the game too!)
• Still use the Lightning staff + Unstable Wall, because the channeled Heavy Attack just works better for these builds
• But put a Flame glyph on the staff, because fire hot burn good 🔥
• Everything else from the above post is the same, except I'm testing on a Dunmer now (only because that's what my DK character already is)

I'm legitimately getting more damage out of this lazy-ass heavy attack build than setups I've tried where I'm putting in maximum effort for mediocre results, lol... All at range (up to the 18m range of Wall, anyway), to boot! If you can be within melee (aka, fire-breathing!) range & swap the first Mages Guild skill (not Inner Light, but whatever you chose for the other one) for Engulfing Flames then the damage of this build shoots up another few K per second too!

Granted, all this testing is being done from the safety of my house, on a stationary target who does no damage to me. So Sorc is still gonna be the easier build to play in real content (especially solo), mostly due to the healing power of Surge. But if you don't have to worry about your healing, the DK looks like an excellent option as well! 🔥🔥🔥

GreenHere

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Heavy attack builds are in a tough place this patch. They were already quite weak, and then Staff Expert CP was removed, reducing heavy attack damage by around 30% (depending how many points were invested). On top of that, off-balance was made useless for all non-heavy attack builds, which means it’s not commonly included as a group buff.

Also, according to another forum thread, all the heavy attack sets were changed to only apply to the final tick of damage with a lightning staff. I haven’t confirmed this one myself, but if true that would be a 75% nerf to these sets that previously affected all 4 ticks. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7168799#Comment_7168799

Oh man, thanks for the heads up @WrathOfInnos ! I wasn't paying attention to individual ticks, but I remember reading that too now that you mention it. It's possible that something is off with my setup on the PTS. I'll need to recheck on the Live server once I'm able.

Seriously, thanks! I'd hate to make these sort of recommendations to people if the info isn't accurate for the actual game. I sometimes forget that things on the PTS don't transfer smoothly to Live.

GreenHere

Well, I tested the Infil/Infal setup a few times on the LIVE server with my DK. As close to the PTS setup outlined above as I could manage with just the stuff I had hoarded in my storage chests. This was the in-melee-range setup with Engulfing Flames in the rotation.

Got an easy ~33K DPS on the 3M skeleton, and ~50K on the Iron Atro
(on average, did around a dozen tests total.. while half-watching TV)
Not bad for just 4 skills plus continuous Heavy Attacks...
With no LA weaving, no (intentional) animation cancelling, and no bar swapping!
And a thoroughly undisciplined rotation.
(I over-casted a lot... yet still somehow managed to let skills fall off more than once, lol)
And never having anything remotely close to sustain concerns.
And having over 24K Health, before any buffs!


My jewelry was Arcane (because of old old build, and I wasn't going to transmute just for testing), and the rings were only purple. I had Infused (instead of Divines, same reason as before) on the Head, Chest, & Legs slots and all three were Prismatic glyphs instead of straight up Magicka. I also didn't feel like faffin about with my CP setup, so that's probably not quite right either. (I'm still less than 1200CP, too! So I'm missing a bit of the power from CP bonuses that I had on the PTS.)
All this is to say, even with less-than-optimal (or what I assume to be optimal) traits and whatnot, this build still kicks butt! : )

It seems things are working well enough on Live servers at this point in time. I didn't really dig into the CMX report to check individual damage ticks and whatnot, but > 30K on the 3 mil skeleton (tested more than a few times) is good enough for me. I think it's pretty safe to assume I'd get similar results as on the PTS with the Sorc too (but I didn't test it).

Here's a few CMX reports, for funsies...

The 3M skeleton:



The Big Boy (fought head-on, because I don't have the Backstabber CP or any "flanking" bonuses applied):



And I have these three goons set up for goofing around and testing AoE stuff... I stopped when the two little ones died, to prevent a never-ending parse. I was only targeting the Robust 6M skeleton, so the minor homies died from just collateral damage:

Thanks again to @WrathOfInnos for spurring my paranoia that this might not work on Live as well as it did on the PTS! I'm glad I tested it to make sure it's decent advice to be offering people. :P

I hope this helps you, random stranger on the internet!
If you somehow waded through all of my ramblings, I salute you! o7
Go forth, and smite thine enemies! >:D




Sorry for dominating the thread, y'all... I will now evict myself, before the OP files a restraining order on me!

Hotdog_23

Nice builds everyone, thanks for sharing. Really wish Flame and ice staff attacks were a channel also like lightning.

Stay safe and enjoy the journey 😊

PS. ZOS stop the micromanagement of the green tree 🥺

JoSePHRiNG

I am using the same but with MagDK due to Molten Armaments,

using Undaunted Unweawer and Noble Duelist plus Maelstrom Staff,

Since this is a heavy attack build, we also need "Empower" and "Off-Balance" to further increase it,

I get the "Empower" from, well "Empowering Chains" since I already need to be in the close range, I am using this ability to get "Empower".

For "Off-Balance" I use the shock glyph on the front bar and use "Elemental Blockade (Blockade of Storms)" on the back bar so I can put enemies "Off-Balance" easily.

Well, I remember hitting 50k DPS on the Trial dummy by just spamming heavy attacks,

My only sadness is they nerfed so you can only get the buff of "Undaunted Unweawer" only in combat which not much of a big deal but rather annoying in casual play.

Draxund

Wow... thanks for all the feedback, especially @GreenHere you really dug into this!!

Even though I don't do trials (yet), I may need to reconsider given the Infallible Mage set. If it pairs that nicely with these Undaunted HA pieces, it could be worth it. Also, I agree with your criticisms of the video that dings sets like these... if I was competitive in top-tier DPS and had magically-perfected LA weaving, I wouldn't be posting this question in the first place. I'm one of those filthy casuals who'd like to hang with the big kids only once in a while.

If the 30k dps you're getting won't get me laughed out of PUGs in normal or vet dungeons, then I'm all for it. I see videos and builds posted of builds getting upwards of 100k DPS and just think, "oh well, guess I'll never run group content." I just want to play with builds that I find fun (and physically capable), and lightning heavy attacks check that box for me.

I may take a peak at the combo of Unweaver and Infiltrator too. Medium gear won't help me much, but it's likely more attainable than the trial Infallible Mage?

Thanks again!

GreenHere

Happy to help, @Draxund ! I was in a similar position a few years ago, looking for heavy attack builds that would suit a friend with various issues, so I know how hard it can seem to find setups that don't just entirely miss the mark. A lot of what people consider "easy" don't seem to account for injuries, disabilities, etc. or they just assume that bar swapping, weaving, animation cancelling and whatnot are all totally doable for everyone. I wanted something where you could literally hold the trigger down, press a few buttons, and just watch enemies burn; but I kind of had to figure it out for myself.

Draxund wrote: »

If the 30k dps you're getting won't get me laughed out of PUGs in normal or vet dungeons, then I'm all for it. I see videos and builds posted of builds getting upwards of 100k DPS and just think, "oh well, guess I'll never run group content." I just want to play with builds that I find fun (and physically capable), and lightning heavy attacks check that box for me.

Keep in mind, the gulf between Iron Atronach DPS numbers and Target Skeleton numbers is huge. Especially at the top end, as the gap just widens the more proficient a player gets. That's why most people prefer to go by those Iron numbers, frankly; it inflates their DPS in a way that makes them/their build look good, even if the numbers are totally unrealistic for the content they run or the build they're advocating. Claiming 12-man super-buffed überultramega numbers for solo or 4-man builds is sorta false advertising, at least in my mind. Most forum goers and content creators seem to disagree with me though, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Either way, as many longtime veterans can attest to, if you're bringing actual in-game ~30K single-target DPS that is totally self-buffed to a PUG Dungeon run -- normal or vet -- you're likely to be pulling better numbers than your other random teammates more often than not. Often by a significant margin, too. I'd say being in the 30ish K bracket makes you solidly above average in PUGs. Despite there being quite a few people who can get up to 50ish K on regular targets (aka, Target Skeles / in Dungeons), or 100ish K on the Iron Atro (aka, in well-organized and buff/debuff-coordinated 12-man Trial groups), the majority of random players in Dungeons seem to clock in around the 10-20K area (again, on regular non-Iron targets)... at least in my experience. The bar is fairly low, if we're being honest.

[Side note: On Sorc I was more around 28K, it was the Dragonknight setups that breezed right past 30 (but with no self-healing)]

There are definitely players who will pull a lot more DPS than you, but they're few and far between in PUGS.
Furthermore, most of the ones I meet are pretty cool people who would never shame someone for their DPS. More often than not they're willing to give tips to help you! But there definitely are a few people who are both good at the game and super condescending to those who aren't -- if they decide to be *** about it that's on them; you're pulling your weight just fine with the sort of DPS you can get from a good heavy attack build.

But in addition to just the DPS you bring, you're providing excellent uptime on Minor Vulnerability, which helps any other damage dealers no matter their spec.
And you're providing a Synergy (on the Sorc, with Lightning Flood) that isn't super common, but does help.
And you've got great AoE damage, which means you'll be a big help in situations where there are large groups causing trouble; you'll soon see how many builds are really strong in single-target, but don't handle groups too well.
And with Surge giving you a steady stream of self-healing, you take pressure off of yourself & the healer so you both can focus on other things (or you're not as screwed if the healer is a "healer" as will often be the case in PUGs).
And, unlike a lot of builds that demand high player performance and/or perfect conditions, your lazy-ass heavy attack build will often do better in real content than on dummies; lightning heavy attacks simply don't miss, and your rotation is so easy that you get nothing but stronger in most groups. Lots of otherwise excellent builds suffer greatly when the slightest thing goes wrong -- which happens plenty in PUGS. When all you're doing is splashing lightning everywhere and zapping the *** outta people -- all while automatically healing back to full constantly -- not much can go wrong for you!
AND you're not an annoying Pet Sorc build that has a half dozen creatures flapping, flailing, crashing, exploding, and breathing fire all over the damn place while the tank is just trying to do their job! (Pet builds are incredibly annoying for many of the people who aren't the ones running them, btw; expect a certain amount of hate if you overdo the pets!)

TL;DR -- With a build like any of the ones people have supplied above, you'll be fine. Don't worry about it too much; the fact that you care enough to ask for pointers and want to do well puts you ahead of most already, frankly. And don't compare Iron Atronach DPS to "real" self-buffed DPS; that's like comparing apples to... I don't know... manatees! :P

Draxund wrote: »

I may take a peak at the combo of Unweaver and Infiltrator too. Medium gear won't help me much, but it's likely more attainable than the trial Infallible Mage?

Yeah, Unweaver + Infiltrator is a viable combo, no doubt! And easier to obtain too, since both Undaunted Unweaver/Infiltrator sets can easily be farmed solo if you're up for that, or with a 4-man group which is not difficult to assemble. If you don't want to get into AA to get Infallible stuff, this setup will do ya fine.

BUT, in my testing anyway, it's not as good. The DPS difference is pretty close to negligible, but it's there. We're talking ~28K (Infil/Infal) vs like 27ish K (Infil/Unweaver), but really the big thing is that the rotation feels more clunky when you're adding in another skill to proc Unweaver (I used Lightweight Trap from the FG skill line, because you wanted ranged build suggestions) and unless you're willing to mix in light attacks with your skill rotation, the timing gets out of sync something awful. Changing some things around could probably fix this, but I just abandoned it after a few tests, honestly.

I know Infiltrator seems an odd choice, what with the 2, 3, & 4-piece set bonuses offering pretty much useless stam build stats, but it's all about the 5-piece bonus in this case -- casting Magicka skills is something you do anyway, so it's a totally "free" damage boost. With Unweaver you have to sacrifice a skill slot (which noticeably reduces damage or survivability, depending on what you otherwise had slotted), and add another cast to your rotation. And it has to be a stamina skill to boot, which means it'll do poor damage. Since I was literally never letting go of heavy attack, this got things out of whack for me and skills started falling off too easily -- whereas that simply wasn't an issue with Infil/Infal. PLUS Infallible offers the Minor Slayer buff, which is valuable AND it's got an "extra" line of Spell Crit.

At the end of the day, it was just about what I could get the best DPS with while having an incredibly easy rotation where I never let go of heavy attack. The proc conditions for Infiltrator and Infallible both are things that you don't have to pay any attention to at all (and don't depend on positioning whatsoever), so they scored BIG points for convenience. And their power can be surpassed by other sets (notably, Noble Duelist & Unweaver; not necessarily together, but both paired well with Infal in my tests) -- but not without making the skill rotation harder than I wanted or staying closer than I wanted. The hassle just wasn't worth the DPS increase for what I was trying to achieve. Infallible + Infiltrator just won the "How can I be lazy and competent at the same time?" argument for me, lol. YMMV


Sorry for all the text, haha. I'm wordy. :P
I hope it helps!

WrathOfInnos

To be fair, Iron Atro is a more objective measure of DPS than a 3mil or 6mil dummy for a lot of reasons. It evens the playing field in ways that are realistic for even moderately coordinated groups. Minor buffs for example, make Magsorc with Minor Prophecy (spell crit) looks better than Magblade with Minor Savagery (weapon crit) on a dummy, but as soon as they’re grouped together and have both buffs they are very close. The Iron Atro also provides sustain support that is expected in most groups (one resource synergy and worm). It equalizes debuffs, so classes with Major Breach don’t appear inflated (every tank should be applying this in group content, and DPS appears ~13% lower if you don’t have it. It also allows better comparisons between skills or weapons, with Lightning vs Inferno bring relevant to the discussion here. Lightning looks competitive on an unbuffed dummy, and this does apply to solo content, but in group content with Engulfing Flames (which is also on the Iron Atro) and Encratis Behemoth giving 15% more fire damage Inferno staff pulls significantly ahead of Lightning.

IMO everyone should practice on the 21mil because it allows better comparisons and simulates group content. You can roughly translate 30k unbuffed to a raid dummy, but some builds might go to 70k while others go to 50k. Both may hit 30k on a 3mil, but there’s a big difference in the effectiveness of those two builds in dungeons and trials.

GreenHere

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

To be fair, Iron Atro is a more objective measure of DPS than a 3mil or 6mil dummy for a lot of reasons. It evens the playing field in ways that are realistic for even moderately coordinated groups. Minor buffs for example, make Magsorc with Minor Prophecy (spell crit) looks better than Magblade with Minor Savagery (weapon crit) on a dummy, but as soon as they’re grouped together and have both buffs they are very close. The Iron Atro also provides sustain support that is expected in most groups (one resource synergy and worm). It equalizes debuffs, so classes with Major Breach don’t appear inflated (every tank should be applying this in group content, and DPS appears ~13% lower if you don’t have it. It also allows better comparisons between skills or weapons, with Lightning vs Inferno bring relevant to the discussion here. Lightning looks competitive on an unbuffed dummy, and this does apply to solo content, but in group content with Engulfing Flames (which is also on the Iron Atro) and Encratis Behemoth giving 15% more fire damage Inferno staff pulls significantly ahead of Lightning.

IMO everyone should practice on the 21mil because it allows better comparisons and simulates group content. You can roughly translate 30k unbuffed to a raid dummy, but some builds might go to 70k while others go to 50k. Both may hit 30k on a 3mil, but there’s a big difference in the effectiveness of those two builds in dungeons and trials.

Not only are those all good points, but that's got to be the best explanation of the "in favor" argument I've ever read on the subject. Thanks for the insightful way of sharing the viewpoint! : )

Usually the argument for Iron parsing is put more like, "All those buffs and debuffs are basic stuff, and you should expect all of them in any good group anyway!" ... even when the discussion is about a solo vMA build or PUG dungeoneering. When someone says any version of "a full 12-man team's worth of buffs and debuffs is safe to assume in any group content" it just seems like too large a pill to swallow for me. But when put that way (as above), that's a much more reasonable way to look at it and I can get behind the spirit of that at the very least.

I just wish there was a more... I don't know, moderate(?) way of leveling the playing field a bit for non-Trial-like DPS parsing available. All those good points above aside, the Iron Atro definitely creates (arguably) false expectations for builds' performance in many ways that I wish weren't so widespread. Excellent "Iron-Ready" builds that fall apart in content where they're not being fed substantial sustain and thorough debuffing can turn idiots some players sour toward their group for not enabling DPS they "know" that they "deserve". (Not that that's really anyone's fault but the person giving that attitude, but I've seen it in ESO more than a few times now since the Iron Atro became the new standard.) It can also dishearten players who see these astronomical (but admittedly, situationally real/obtainable) DPS numbers being advertised in builds, because it'll often double, triple, or more than quadruple what they're capable of in the content they're used to; which makes them feel like they're worth less than half a good player when that's often not the reality. I also just can't shake the feeling that, "Look how big my numbers are, y'all!" is a big part of why Iron numbers are shared. Even with the totally sensible and valid counterpoints above.

Anyway, totally unnecessary rant on my part there. I didn't really need to get all soap-boxy in my above posts, or even in this one really... I just wanted to point out that you shouldn't be comparing the DPS you see in people's builds against anything other than the same target they used, @Draxund. Which is the Iron Atronach nowadays. @WrathOfInnos is right, as is often the case. :P

Again, thank you Wrath for the insight there. I do appreciate the relevant correction!

khaoticfury

GreenHere wrote: »

Sorry to haunt your thread here, @jpdunningub17_ESO , but I've been dinking around on the PTS and got some more potentially worthwhile info for you / anyone who ends up here via Google...


I know this thread was created to ask about Sorc heavy attack builds, but I just tested the setup from my TED Talk above with a Dragonknight. It's pretty great! I was getting well above 33K DPS on the 3 mil skeleton time and again. AND the skill rotation is even easier (if you can imagine!) because of the longer skill durations DKs have!

Check it:

• Replace Bound Aegis (Sorc skill which was only on the bar to provide passive bonuses) with literally any skill you want from the Mages Guild line; Structured Entropy is a decent choice so you have a heal-over-time, but any will do for the passive bonuses
• Keep Inner Light on the bar, just like the Sorc build. Those passive bonuses help a LOT
• Replace Critical Surge (Sorc skill that grants Major Sorcery + excellent healing) with Molten Armaments (which provides the same Major Sorcery buff PLUS a +50% Heavy Attack damage bonus! Offers no healing, though, so be aware of that!)
• Replace Lightning Flood with Eruption (it's stronger and lasts longer, PLUS it has one of the heaviest snares in the game too!)
• Still use the Lightning staff + Unstable Wall, because the channeled Heavy Attack just works better for these builds
• But put a Flame glyph on the staff, because fire hot burn good 🔥
• Everything else from the above post is the same, except I'm testing on a Dunmer now (only because that's what my DK character already is)

I'm legitimately getting more damage out of this lazy-ass heavy attack build than setups I've tried where I'm putting in maximum effort for mediocre results, lol... All at range (up to the 18m range of Wall, anyway), to boot! If you can be within melee (aka, fire-breathing!) range & swap the first Mages Guild skill (not Inner Light, but whatever you chose for the other one) for Engulfing Flames then the damage of this build shoots up another few K per second too!

Granted, all this testing is being done from the safety of my house, on a stationary target who does no damage to me. So Sorc is still gonna be the easier build to play in real content (especially solo), mostly due to the healing power of Surge. But if you don't have to worry about your healing, the DK looks like an excellent option as well! 🔥🔥🔥

so is this good?

khaoticfury

khaoticfury wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Sorry to haunt your thread here, @jpdunningub17_ESO , but I've been dinking around on the PTS and got some more potentially worthwhile info for you / anyone who ends up here via Google...


I know this thread was created to ask about Sorc heavy attack builds, but I just tested the setup from my TED Talk above with a Dragonknight. It's pretty great! I was getting well above 33K DPS on the 3 mil skeleton time and again. AND the skill rotation is even easier (if you can imagine!) because of the longer skill durations DKs have!

Check it:

• Replace Bound Aegis (Sorc skill which was only on the bar to provide passive bonuses) with literally any skill you want from the Mages Guild line; Structured Entropy is a decent choice so you have a heal-over-time, but any will do for the passive bonuses
• Keep Inner Light on the bar, just like the Sorc build. Those passive bonuses help a LOT
• Replace Critical Surge (Sorc skill that grants Major Sorcery + excellent healing) with Molten Armaments (which provides the same Major Sorcery buff PLUS a +50% Heavy Attack damage bonus! Offers no healing, though, so be aware of that!)
• Replace Lightning Flood with Eruption (it's stronger and lasts longer, PLUS it has one of the heaviest snares in the game too!)
• Still use the Lightning staff + Unstable Wall, because the channeled Heavy Attack just works better for these builds
• But put a Flame glyph on the staff, because fire hot burn good 🔥
• Everything else from the above post is the same, except I'm testing on a Dunmer now (only because that's what my DK character already is)

I'm legitimately getting more damage out of this lazy-ass heavy attack build than setups I've tried where I'm putting in maximum effort for mediocre results, lol... All at range (up to the 18m range of Wall, anyway), to boot! If you can be within melee (aka, fire-breathing!) range & swap the first Mages Guild skill (not Inner Light, but whatever you chose for the other one) for Engulfing Flames then the damage of this build shoots up another few K per second too!

Granted, all this testing is being done from the safety of my house, on a stationary target who does no damage to me. So Sorc is still gonna be the easier build to play in real content (especially solo), mostly due to the healing power of Surge. But if you don't have to worry about your healing, the DK looks like an excellent option as well! 🔥🔥🔥

so is this good?

and this one for sorc??

khaoticfury

My only question is, does Lightning Flood really provide more dps than Volatile Familiar abiltiy?

GreenHere

@khaoticfury if you want to deviate from what I outlined above, that's totally cool. There's definitely room for experimentation (and improvement) and just using skills you prefer and whatnot. But I can't really vouch for how other setups will work. I slapped together the above setups kinda quickly just for testing, so anything other than what I wrote about I won't really know too much about.

That said, I chose Lightning Flood over the purple monkey mostly just because I personally hate ESO combat pets. VF is a lot less egregious than the Twilight, but I still just generally steer entirely clear of pets despite the useful passives that come along with them. The only thing I'd really say is worth considering is if you actually want to be Stunning enemies with the Volatile Familiar -- a lot of times stuns are helpful, but other times they can be counterproductive. So that's sort of a judgement call. Same goes for the Volcanic Rune from Mages Guild; it's a fun ability and all, but use your own discretion on when it's worth slotting or not.

Chances are you're not working with the same restrictions that the Draxund (the OP of this thread) wanted when they asked for help, so definitely adjust your builds to what works for you. I was trying to make something that accommodated a friend of mine who has minor disabilities, and also the requests for staying at range and minimizing button presses that the OP had. So if something different looks better to you, go for it!

Otherwise, try it out exactly as outlined above, and see what you think. It's probably not up to snuff for most folks, but I've also heard from a few people that it's perfect for them. YMMV

Oreyn_Bearclaw

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Heavy attack builds are in a tough place this patch. They were already quite weak, and then Staff Expert CP was removed, reducing heavy attack damage by around 30% (depending how many points were invested). On top of that, off-balance was made useless for all non-heavy attack builds, which means it’s not commonly included as a group buff.

Also, according to another forum thread, all the heavy attack sets were changed to only apply to the final tick of damage with a lightning staff. I haven’t confirmed this one myself, but if true that would be a 75% nerf to these sets that previously affected all 4 ticks. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7168799#Comment_7168799

I’ll say this, if your goal is to reduce the gap between the ceiling and the floor, nerfing HA builds is a pretty foolish decision.

WrathOfInnos

@Oreyn_Bearclaw I will give credit where due. Heavy attack sets seem to be working now, and there are some nice changes on PTS, such as the reintroduction of a Light/Heavy attack CP. It’s a little undertuned, giving only 15% to these attacks when slotted, but it’s a start.

Other changes on PTS do seem aimed at bringing the floor and ceiling closer together. They finally killed the Simmering Frenzy + Pale Order trial meta, which has been increasing top DPS by ~25% for nearly 6 months, while also turning players into glass cannons that are one-shot by literally anything. That mythic has been replaced by the much more reasonable Harpooner’s Wading Kilt, which still rewards players for avoiding damage, without being suicide for most players.

The main thing on PTS that I find counterproductive is the set Bahsei’s Mania, which gives 0% damage to players with full Magicka, and scales up to 15% damage when Magicka runs out. Guess which end of that scale heavy attack builds will be sitting at. Or Bretons. Or players that don’t cast skills fast enough to drain resources. Or those that prefer using sustain enchants over full damage. A set that rewarded all of these things would be nice, but instead it punishes them. It punishes anyone that seeks out Hollowfang procs, or takes time echo buffs, synergizes an orb/shard, or times their heavy attack while the boss is off-balance, or uses their class sustain ability (Dark Conversion, Siphoning Attacks, etc.).

molecule

Heavy attack build is still effective in Trials, certainly not top tier - but enough to complete everything.

Infal Aether / Undaunted Unweaver - 80k



https://i.imgur.com/IVQwCM3.jpg

NoMoreChillies

molecule wrote: »

Heavy attack build is still effective in Trials, certainly not top tier - but enough to complete everything.

Infal Aether / Undaunted Unweaver - 80k



https://i.imgur.com/IVQwCM3.jpg

66 ping *drools

sadly OCE players are second class citizens in Tamriel. ZOS advertise the game here but cant give us servers. LAME

Rebiludo

79.5 k DPS for me, with regular with :
Noble Duelist + IA + Zaan.
Altmer. Thief mundus. 1110 CP.
No minor force buff
Vol. Fam -> wall -> orb -> degen -> HA -> rune/ult -> HA -> rune/ult -> HA.

22k with daedric tomb ? Multiple Hitbox exploit ?

molecule

Rebiludo wrote: »

22k with daedric tomb ? Multiple Hitbox exploit ?

Do you seriuosly think i would post a parse with my character name on it an use an exploit ?

If you took the time to look instead of jumping to unfounded conclusions you would see it is legitimate.

A single cast of Daedric mines fires 3 mines.

2 mines trigger on any target if placed at the base of the target ( usually aim for between feet/legs )

My parse shows 87 casts with 174 hits ( 2 mines per cast )

No expoit involved