Does Meticulous Disassembly actually help?

remosito

linuxlady wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

linuxlady wrote: »

I would think disassembly has to do with the mats returned on GEAR broken down. Not refining mats process. Try testing for the right behavior.


Meticulous Disassembly icon
Meticulous Disassembly
Improves the chances of extracting Woodworking, Blacksmithing, Clothing, and Jewelry Crafting ingredients and allows the refining of more powerful resins, tempers, tannins, and platings from raw materials.


It says nothing about increased mats from refining



This is a case of OP and others reading into a thing whatever it is they WiSH it meant.

and allows the refining of more powerful resins, tempers, tannins, and platings from raw materials.

and allows the refining of more powerful

the refining of more

refining

Ummm....

"it allows the refining of more powerful" NOT "increases the amount of of more powerful"

this would matter if zos had a top notch track record of perfect tooltip wordings.

as they REALLY dont. It doesnt matter whats written on it. but what data shows it actually does.

spartaxoxo

linuxlady wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

linuxlady wrote: »

I would think disassembly has to do with the mats returned on GEAR broken down. Not refining mats process. Try testing for the right behavior.


Meticulous Disassembly icon
Meticulous Disassembly
Improves the chances of extracting Woodworking, Blacksmithing, Clothing, and Jewelry Crafting ingredients and allows the refining of more powerful resins, tempers, tannins, and platings from raw materials.


It says nothing about increased mats from refining



This is a case of OP and others reading into a thing whatever it is they WiSH it meant.

and allows the refining of more powerful resins, tempers, tannins, and platings from raw materials.

and allows the refining of more powerful

the refining of more

refining

Ummm....

"it allows the refining of more powerful" NOT "increases the amount of of more powerful"

And how it would allow more powerful refinement if it wasn't increasing the amount? More powerful items can be in quality or quantity. It's not gonna turn a green mat into a blue one, so it must reference an increase in quantity.

And indeed, that's exactly what it does.

tmbrinks

Yes, Meticulous Disassembly increases the drop rates from refining.

Best guess is that it increases it by 12.5% (a 1.125 multiplier or 9/8ths of what you got previously)

Testing on the PTS clearly showed an increase well above and beyond any statistical anomaly (or "random" chance)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yQDUjYNQVsIFl0ktkbkSlfYPkzP6pgCOTMQ-qCuzfaI/edit#gid=143495669

Testing on LIVE clearly shows an increase well above and beyond any statistical anomaly (literally at a 1 in a 1,000,000,000 chance to get the numbers by random chance)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yQDUjYNQVsIFl0ktkbkSlfYPkzP6pgCOTMQ-qCuzfaI/edit#gid=1892397659

Yes for small samples, the absolute "change" isn't much. But over hundreds of thousands of materials refined, it becomes significant, and is clearly increased.

(Also, for deconstruction, I have not tracked, but anecdotally it seems to increase the drop rate as well... but I don't like giving anecdotal evidence, I prefer to stick with hard data, not "how it feels")

GreenHere

@tmbrinks , you're alive!

Don't know if I've ever said this to you before, but thanks a bunch for all you do for & share with the community! Your stats, insights, and whatnot are always appreciated, and you're an asset to the community. I'm glad you're still around!

tmbrinks

GreenHere wrote: »

@tmbrinks , you're alive!

Don't know if I've ever said this to you before, but thanks a bunch for all you do for & share with the community! Your stats, insights, and whatnot are always appreciated, and you're an asset to the community. I'm glad you're still around!

Thank you. I appreciate it.

EvilAutoTech

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

Since U29, it has been 8 max tier and 8 tier one. I had been doing 10 max tier and 5 tier one for about a year and a half. I went 50/50 after the reset specifically to save on platinum and ancestor silk. I can't rememberthe last time I bought mats, but I know it was reagents after maxing out alchemy on a few characters.

So you're saying you can't sustain it, then, if you switched to save on plat and silk. The tier ones are self sustaining without the surveys, so you're using the surveys from those to sustain the level 10s.

Surveys have a 1 in 8 chance of dropping. For BS and Wood you have 19*6*1.5=171 expected raw mats from survey (although some are saying the bonus drop rate isn't 50%). Which is what? About 145 refined? ( I don't know if there's a calculated drop rate for refined mats, but 7-10 per 10 is my experience, so about 8.5 per 10 on average I'd guess)

A level 10 writ requires 36-40 mats, so let's say 38. You get 15 back, so you need 23. 145/8=18. So you end up about 5 short per character, about 90 per day on 18 characters, not a lot but still a big enough deficit that RNG won't save you and you will fall behind. Ancestor silk is 2/3 the writs and two thirds the survey mats, so about even, maybe a bit higher since those require a couple of more mats each, which adds up.

Platinum requires less, but gives back less, so you end up similarly behind.

So none are self sustaining with no trading. The extra mats can make up the difference though if you sell the lower level mats and buy the higher level ones. Wood and BS might be self sustaining once you include hirelings, Silk isn't because the hirelings split it with leather, while platinum isn't because it has no hirelings.

12 and 6 maybe even 14 and 4 should be sustainable now if the 50% bonus is accurate from plentiful harvest. 18 tier 10 is still worth it, though. The extra gold mats are worth a few guild trader trips.

What I'm saying is that my regular gameplay cannot supply enough ancestor silk and platinum for 10 max tier crafters. I have needed to collect surveys for those materials every couple of months. I put enough materials for the other crafts into my craft bag to avoid having to even collect the surveys for them. I do a lot more in the game than just crafting writs.

virtus753

linuxlady wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

linuxlady wrote: »

I would think disassembly has to do with the mats returned on GEAR broken down. Not refining mats process. Try testing for the right behavior.


Meticulous Disassembly icon
Meticulous Disassembly
Improves the chances of extracting Woodworking, Blacksmithing, Clothing, and Jewelry Crafting ingredients and allows the refining of more powerful resins, tempers, tannins, and platings from raw materials.


It says nothing about increased mats from refining

It says "extracting...ingredients." There are two ways to "extract" ingredients: from gear, and from refining. Just like the extraction passives, with which Gina explicitly said MD is designed to stack:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562719/pts-patch-notes-v6-3-4

The numbers for refining (linked above) show a definite improvement on ingredients extracted from refining.

the link you posted has no such reference to the thing you claimed that it does.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562719/pts-patch-notes-v6-3-4

"Meticulous Disassembly:

• Fixed an issue where the Woodworking portion of this passive was the only one to work, and would break if you spent points into the Wood Extraction passive.

• Obtaining this passive will now properly scale with each rank of the respective craft trees and allow you to exceed the normal cap of improved chances with each.

• Note that there is no chance associated in the tooltip with this passive as the chance is not a static value and is dependent upon your passive level of the other extraction passives, in addition to varying chances per material type (temper, style material, etc.)

"

I don't know how that isn't explicit confirmation that MD stacks with the "extraction passives" specifically called out twice in that note.

ETA: The fact that Gina used the phrase "the other extraction passives" means that they consider this an extraction passive. Otherwise she would have said just "the extraction passives."

For the actual statistics, I linked those *above* (as in comments 18 and 21).

CrashTest

It works. I'm getting more upgrade mats when I refine than I used to without it.

My extraction skill passives are all maxed out too.

xaraan

I haven't seen much difference using it, but maybe it's such a small chance it's hard to see without a hundred thousand points of reference.

LalMirchi

GreenHere wrote: »

@tmbrinks , you're alive!

Don't know if I've ever said this to you before, but thanks a bunch for all you do for & share with the community! Your stats, insights, and whatnot are always appreciated, and you're an asset to the community. I'm glad you're still around!

Yes there is only one awesome @tmbrinks Thank your for the very insightful and exhaustive information on crafting. My go-to resource and search term

Vevvev

I've seen a massive increase in materials earned while refining stuff, and I've gotten a lot of gold materials. Now based on what people have said in this thread it could very well be a placebo effect, but I remember refining a single jewelry survey and getting 4 chromium grains and a lot of the others all at once.

SirAndy

tmbrinks wrote: »

but I don't like giving anecdotal evidence, I prefer to stick with hard data, not "how it feels")

I personally like the way hard data feels ...

Icy_Waffles

Absolutely worth it

tc91101

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

PeacefulAnarchy wrote: »

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

Since U29, it has been 8 max tier and 8 tier one. I had been doing 10 max tier and 5 tier one for about a year and a half. I went 50/50 after the reset specifically to save on platinum and ancestor silk. I can't rememberthe last time I bought mats, but I know it was reagents after maxing out alchemy on a few characters.

So you're saying you can't sustain it, then, if you switched to save on plat and silk. The tier ones are self sustaining without the surveys, so you're using the surveys from those to sustain the level 10s.

Surveys have a 1 in 8 chance of dropping. For BS and Wood you have 19*6*1.5=171 expected raw mats from survey (although some are saying the bonus drop rate isn't 50%). Which is what? About 145 refined? ( I don't know if there's a calculated drop rate for refined mats, but 7-10 per 10 is my experience, so about 8.5 per 10 on average I'd guess)

A level 10 writ requires 36-40 mats, so let's say 38. You get 15 back, so you need 23. 145/8=18. So you end up about 5 short per character, about 90 per day on 18 characters, not a lot but still a big enough deficit that RNG won't save you and you will fall behind. Ancestor silk is 2/3 the writs and two thirds the survey mats, so about even, maybe a bit higher since those require a couple of more mats each, which adds up.

Platinum requires less, but gives back less, so you end up similarly behind.

So none are self sustaining with no trading. The extra mats can make up the difference though if you sell the lower level mats and buy the higher level ones. Wood and BS might be self sustaining once you include hirelings, Silk isn't because the hirelings split it with leather, while platinum isn't because it has no hirelings.

12 and 6 maybe even 14 and 4 should be sustainable now if the 50% bonus is accurate from plentiful harvest. 18 tier 10 is still worth it, though. The extra gold mats are worth a few guild trader trips.

What I'm saying is that my regular gameplay cannot supply enough ancestor silk and platinum for 10 max tier crafters. I have needed to collect surveys for those materials every couple of months. I put enough materials for the other crafts into my craft bag to avoid having to even collect the surveys for them. I do a lot more in the game than just crafting writs.

If I do Surveys I don't typically need to buy matts for all my daily crafting alts. I personally don't like doing surveys or collecting in general though so I just buy the matts. I get a ton of gold matts by doing the writs that I can sell off to more than afford to buy base matts. A set of 4 Chromium plating will get you at least 600k which is enough gold to buy months worth of writ matts.

Ackwalan

The wording of this passive is a bit confusing (at least for me). Today is the day I do my crafting surveys, I always have this passive active when refining and deconning, just never paid close attention. I might try a little experimenting with it, and see for myself.

stefj68

my test on pts was not showing any conclusive gain... i posted about it and someone said i was wrong! but i still have feeling that i am getting the same thing as before even with that... not more... maybe more style mats when i deconstruct, but i don't see any improvement on golden mats

virtus753

stefj68 wrote: »

my test on pts was not showing any conclusive gain... i posted about it and someone said i was wrong! but i still have feeling that i am getting the same thing as before even with that... not more... maybe more style mats when i deconstruct, but i don't see any improvement on golden mats

When did you test it on PTS? The passive was well and truly broken until 6.3.4.

If you were testing after that patch, what sort of numbers were you seeing? How much raw material were you refining and what were your returns?