Why don't people kick fake roles?

Congrolios

This is primarily for fake tanks, because I don't really see many fake healers. Or just don't notice because I always play assuming I need to keep myself alive.

I've seen a lot of complaints about fake roles, here and elsewhere. I don't think it's as big of a problem as some people make it out to be, but it can definitely be annoying, and I don't like that I waited in queue just to get a fake tank anyway when I could have done that myself. Normally I just run the dungeon, but if a tank/healer is needed and they're not doing the basic job, causing us to die/wipe, then I start trying to kick.

The key word there is trying. 99% of the time the vote fails. Why? There's so much vocal outcry about them I would expect people to happily kick, but even if we wipe no one seems to care. I even had someone message me this week saying that it wasn't worth kicking because it would take forever to find a replacement tank anyway. 1) We didn't have a tank to begin with, 2) I was basically soloing the dungeon as is, so what does it matter if it takes a while to get a new "tank"?

Genuinely curious about this. If you don't accept the vote to kick a fake role, can you explain your reasoning? I'm seeing more and more fake roles lately and I'm just going to start fake tanking everything myself since no one seems to actually care.

preevious

because DD already waited 20 minutes to get into a dungeon.
Kicking the fake tank would mean wainting for another tank for another 20mins.

Most people prefer to do with the fake tank, and his subpar DPS, while secretly despising and hating him.

And even if he is kicked, he'll just insta queue by fake tanking, and will plague another group with his selfishness.

Does it show I don't like fake tanks on group finder?

Agenericname

Some of the time they group in pairs to insure that a vote cant pass. If its a normal odds are they didnt need 4 players anyway, so if you leave in protest its not a big deal.

Not everyone cares. The necessity of a tank and healer in normal dungeons, and even some vets, is highly debatable and theres no real concensus.

It probably would take a while to replace a fake tank. And would you get a real tank to replace them?

If youre going to fake tank, make a real one, fast queues and it can be fun. It'll also open your eyes some.

TequilaFire

How do you tell the difference between a fake tank and a just a bad tank?
Sometimes we should also kick a bad DPS.

VaranisArano

Because it's usually tolerable, though annoying, on Normal difficulty. I main a tank, so when my healer ends up facetanking the boss, I still know the mechanics and how to handle it. Most of the time, a fake tank won't prevent us from completing the random normal because I and other experienced players can compensate for them not doing their job. It's annoying, but so is waiting for a replacement.

On Vet, if the group is concerned that they can't complete it without a real tank, there's usually a kick coming because it's much harder for groupmages to compensate for someone not holding aggro on the boss or following boss mechanics. In that case, it's worth the wait time for a replacement.

In either case, if someone initiates the vote-kick for a fake tank, I'll do it. I just very rarely see vote-kicks started on a fake tank in random normals.

preevious

TequilaFire wrote: »

How do you tell the difference between a fake tank and a just a bad tank?
Sometimes we should also kick a bad DPS.

Yes, sometimes.
If the DPS queued for a vDLC with 5k DPS, by all means, kick him.
If he is in normal, do with him, because he is in his place.
Same with a bad tank.

A fake tank (someone who think is a dps, and is proud of his mediocre damage, and don't slot a taunt, and don't even wan't yo do whatsoever tanky), deserve to be kicked from any content.

Xanathos

Reasons are simple, majority of player play Damage Dealers and as all know, finding random party from quene for dd is hard to impossible. And "holy tree roles" quene system is always harsh for dd no matter in which mmo is it.

Thats why some player make fake roles to only get and do that nRND. Btw i can tell from my random dung experience that most universal for every role class is Templar with JABS.

For fair play and for not allow abuse kick sytem, you can kick someone only with party majority (3/4)

divnyi

Depends on what fake tank do. If he slots taunt and it's normal dungeon, nobody would even notice. If fact, the run will even be quicker due to added DPS.

I do have PvP bruiser (35k & armor cap) which I use a tank to do dungeons. Double bar lightning bar, but I can do 4keys EZ (because hell, I soloed Arx last boss after group instawiped). I was even asked to go vet dlc by a random group once. Wasn't the easiest run, but hey, it worked.

perfiction

I see nothing wrong with fake tanking in normal dungeons (especially RNDs) as long as you slot in the taunt and CCs. I often fake tank RNDs on my DD toons just to save myself some queue time, I always use undaunted taunt and fighters guild pull to bring that tank utility for the team. So far noone mentioned my fake role on the chat, neither started the vote against me.

Normal dungeons are easy enough that you don't need to have 40k+ HP to tank them anyway, some self heals and shields are enough to carry you through. My take is - fake tanking in normals is fine as long as you have the taunt slotted. Boss running around and changing target every few seconds is annoying for DDs making it literally impossible to keep AoE spells up.

side note - why everyone is mad about fake tanks and fake healers while fake DDs are the real plague of pugs?

Agenericname

perfiction wrote: »

I see nothing wrong with fake tanking in normal dungeons (especially RNDs) as long as you slot in the taunt and CCs. I often fake tank RNDs on my DD toons just to save myself some queue time, I always use undaunted taunt and fighters guild pull to bring that tank utility for the team. So far noone mentioned my fake role on the chat, neither started the vote against me.

Normal dungeons are easy enough that you don't need to have 40k+ HP to tank them anyway, some self heals and shields are enough to carry you through. My take is - fake tanking in normals is fine as long as you have the taunt slotted. Boss running around and changing target every few seconds is annoying for DDs making it literally impossible to keep AoE spells up.

Thats not fake tanking. Its fullfilling the basic tanking role.

Congrolios

Agenericname wrote: »

If youre going to fake tank, make a real one, fast queues and it can be fun. It'll also open your eyes some.

I've tanked in every MMO I've played since Everquest. Most of my characters can tank and have tank sets. The problems are that tanking is this game is awful (not fun or impactful most of the time), and tanks don't carry. Plus when I tank I get group-wide DPS of 10k, with me doing 5-6k of that as the tank...not worth it.

preevious

perfiction wrote: »

side note - why everyone is mad about fake tanks and fake healers while fake DDs are the real plague of pugs?

Because it's all the difference between incompetence and dishonnesty.

Incompetence is excusable, dishonnesty, not so much.

SpacemanSpiff1

i do. kicked a fake tank the other day after repeated requests to actually taunt the bosses. got him out right before final boss.

VaranisArano

Agenericname wrote: »

perfiction wrote: »

I see nothing wrong with fake tanking in normal dungeons (especially RNDs) as long as you slot in the taunt and CCs. I often fake tank RNDs on my DD toons just to save myself some queue time, I always use undaunted taunt and fighters guild pull to bring that tank utility for the team. So far noone mentioned my fake role on the chat, neither started the vote against me.

Normal dungeons are easy enough that you don't need to have 40k+ HP to tank them anyway, some self heals and shields are enough to carry you through. My take is - fake tanking in normals is fine as long as you have the taunt slotted. Boss running around and changing target every few seconds is annoying for DDs making it literally impossible to keep AoE spells up.

Thats not fake tanking. Its fullfilling the basic tanking role.

Yep.

A basic tank taunts the boss, holds boss aggro, and stays alive.

A good tank taunts the boss, holds boss aggro, stays alive, taunts priority and hard hitting adds, keeps the boss more or less still in the DDs' AOEs and facing away from the group, crowd controls mobs, buffs the group, debuffs the boss, and follows mechanics like blocking, bashing, interrupting.

A fake tank doesn't taunt, and pretty often laughs it off when asked to do the basic job of a tank.

Dunning_Kruger

Everyone wants to follow no one wants to lead. That’s why it’s DDs crying and fake tanks getting what they want. If you cared you’d be a real tank and stop crying about fake tanks. Also the majority of real tanks have friends/guildies to run with because pugging dungeons as a true tank is painful because there are millions of fake DDs in the queue pulling sub 15k dps making dungeons 40 minute grueling experiences.
I have seen more fake DDs then tanks in my entire 6 years on ESO, but complaining about fake DDs is seen as elitist despite it being one of the main facts no competent tank in their right mind wants to pug tank content.

Dunning_Kruger

preevious wrote: »

perfiction wrote: »

side note - why everyone is mad about fake tanks and fake healers while fake DDs are the real plague of pugs?

Because it's all the difference between incompetence and dishonnesty.

Incompetence is excusable, dishonnesty, not so much.

Fake DDs are dishonest; they aren’t up to the task to do vet dlc content and they know they are trash. They just expect to get carried so queue up in a low responsibility role anyways.

perfiction

Agenericname wrote: »

Thats not fake tanking. Its fullfilling the basic tanking role.

Tanks should be, well... tanky. That's why it's fake tanking for me. Same example - slotting one healing spell on DD doesn't make you a healer, it's still fake healing because you bring bare minimum to the table (and yes, I fake heal like that as well during RNDs, for example on my magcro toon). Sure, it's enough to finish easier content, but it's not how you're meant to play that role - hence it's faking.

But yeah, if someone picks tank role and doesn't bring any taunt or pick healer role and doesn't bring any heal then you have full right to kick them, I'm with you here.

Maxx7410

Many time it is better at least in normal 4 dps will kill all much faster (IF they are any good of course!)

ApoAlaia

In normal vanilla dungeons it doesn't really matter; DLC ones there are only a couple (for instance Stone Garden) where 'fake roles' do bother me a little bit because if I happen to be on a character that is not carrying solo gear as well as party one - which is to say all my stamina characters except my werewolf stamsorc - I'm not going to have a particularly good time with no tank and no healer.

Thing is, I have encountered a few times a fake tank and a fake healer already partied so you have zero chance of kicking them anyway.

Because I hardly ever do vRND, only nRND (for the crystals and reasonably fast xp) is really not a big deal for me.

EDIT: For the record by 'fake' I am talking about people who queue as tank/healer with zero intention, gear or slotted skills to fulfill even the most basic parts of those roles; these are generally just DDs wearing for instance FGD+Pale Order and if you who queued as DD did not slot self-heals and were counting on party buffs well, sucks to be you when to boss starts rampaging around.

VaranisArano

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

Everyone wants to follow no one wants to lead. That’s why it’s DDs crying and fake tanks getting what they want. If you cared you’d be a real tank and stop crying about fake tanks. Also the majority of real tanks have friends/guildies to run with because pugging dungeons as a true tank is painful because there are millions of fake DDs in the queue pulling sub 15k dps making dungeons 40 minute grueling experiences.
I have seen more fake DDs then tanks in my entire 6 years on ESO, but complaining about fake DDs is seen as elitist despite it being one of the main facts no competent tank in their right mind wants to pug tank content.

I main a tank.
Sometimes I like to play on my healer, you know? That's when I run into the fake tanks.

It's like a double whammy. Not only am I now inefficiently face tanking a boss I could handle more effectively on my regular tank, but I know exactly what the fake tank should be doing and isn't. Instead, they dumped their job on me (or made my job harder when the boss takes after a DD instead) so they could chase their high DPS parses. It makes it hard to enjoy playing a healer, when what I'm forced into playing is a bad heal-tank with no taunt except my ugly mug of a face.

But sure, I guess the one true answer is to never enjoy playing my healer as a healer, and only play my tank instead.

Chief_Wiggums

I can heal all dungeons, normal and vet, with two skills. those skills are rapid regeneration (or the other morph of it) and healing ward.

I have done this on every class, even a mag dk, with no issues.

The only role you really need is a tank for vet dungeons. other than that i prefer dps.

Viewsfrom6ix

Because the people who complain on reddit and forum is tiny fraction of the population.

I've tanked on my DPS more than I can remember and I've never been even voted to be kicked.

The general population does not care until the group starts wiping repeatedly which rarely occurs in normal dungeons

jaws343

I usually don't kick a fake tank in normal dungeons because the extra DPS, no matter how small, is usually better than waiting around for a tank. Chances are, if I vote kick the tank, I am still going to push forward and three man the dungeon, because waiting around is annoying and I can mostly solo them on normal, depending on the dungeon.

I do kick fake tanks on Vet dungeons if there are one shot mechanics. Vet base game dungeons I'll push forward because I can solo them and a fake tank is not really a problem. But definitely Vet DLCs.

gariondavey

Agenericname wrote: »

perfiction wrote: »

I see nothing wrong with fake tanking in normal dungeons (especially RNDs) as long as you slot in the taunt and CCs. I often fake tank RNDs on my DD toons just to save myself some queue time, I always use undaunted taunt and fighters guild pull to bring that tank utility for the team. So far noone mentioned my fake role on the chat, neither started the vote against me.

Normal dungeons are easy enough that you don't need to have 40k+ HP to tank them anyway, some self heals and shields are enough to carry you through. My take is - fake tanking in normals is fine as long as you have the taunt slotted. Boss running around and changing target every few seconds is annoying for DDs making it literally impossible to keep AoE spells up.

Thats not fake tanking. Its fullfilling the basic tanking role.

No, this is fake tanking

gariondavey

Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »

Because the people who complain on reddit and forum is tiny fraction of the population.

I've tanked on my DPS more than I can remember and I've never been even voted to be kicked.

The general population does not care until the group starts wiping repeatedly which rarely occurs in normal dungeons

This. Super easy to fake tank as a dps with a taunt. Normals are so faceroll. Even dlcs on normal, or non dlc vets

Congrolios

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

Everyone wants to follow no one wants to lead. That’s why it’s DDs crying and fake tanks getting what they want. If you cared you’d be a real tank and stop crying about fake tanks. Also the majority of real tanks have friends/guildies to run with because pugging dungeons as a true tank is painful because there are millions of fake DDs in the queue pulling sub 15k dps making dungeons 40 minute grueling experiences.
I have seen more fake DDs then tanks in my entire 6 years on ESO, but complaining about fake DDs is seen as elitist despite it being one of the main facts no competent tank in their right mind wants to pug tank content.

Fair enough regarding the not wanting to tank PUGs point, I guess. I generally don't like to tank randoms because of low DPS, and almost always switch to DPS gear and slotting a taunt because it's insufferable. But they aren't fake, they're just bad/inexperienced.

Anyway, nothing in your post addresses my question. The question isn't "what are ways to deal with fake tanks", it's "why don't people kick fake roles"? And as VaranisArano mentions, what you say doesn't address the case of real healers having to deal with them.

We get it, you can not PUG and only play with guildies/friends. That isn't the question. The question is why do people complain about the problem if they don't use one of the tools to solve it?

NordSwordnBoard

Sometimes, on an 150% XP scroll, people will set aside some ethics and morals to just get things done ASAP. Time is the main factor in most cases.

jaws343 wrote: »

I usually don't kick a fake tank in normal dungeons because the extra DPS, no matter how small, is usually better than waiting around for a tank. Chances are, if I vote kick the tank, I am still going to push forward and three man the dungeon, because waiting around is annoying and I can mostly solo them on normal, depending on the dungeon.

I do kick fake tanks on Vet dungeons if there are one shot mechanics. Vet base game dungeons I'll push forward because I can solo them and a fake tank is not really a problem. But definitely Vet DLCs.

In normal it hardly matters as I only bring a build capable of soloing it as insurance. I let my ESO+ expire and I'm flying through random dungeons both normal and vet. Support roles in Vet allow you to bail whenever fake anything rears its ugly head enough that the group hits a brick wall.

I can't imagine the frustration of grinding xp through randos on vet without a rotation of support roles to ease the que time. It's part of the reason I made a tank in the first place - once you play as tank, it changes the way you understand other roles. Time is of the essence; a bunch of (solo random) support role ques will get you XP faster than the same number of DD ques.

Congrolios

gariondavey wrote: »

Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »

Because the people who complain on reddit and forum is tiny fraction of the population.

I've tanked on my DPS more than I can remember and I've never been even voted to be kicked.

The general population does not care until the group starts wiping repeatedly which rarely occurs in normal dungeons

This. Super easy to fake tank as a dps with a taunt. Normals are so faceroll. Even dlcs on normal, or non dlc vets

I guess I should have made it clear what I meant by "fake". Some people don't consider a taunt and staying alive enough for a fake tank, but I do. No disagreement here about it being easy to do. The problem is I almost never see "fake tanks" that do this. They're just really low DPS that skipped the queue, no taunt, not even caltrops for AoE breach.

Agenericname

perfiction wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Thats not fake tanking. Its fullfilling the basic tanking role.

Tanks should be, well... tanky. That's why it's fake tanking for me. Same example - slotting one healing spell on DD doesn't make you a healer, it's still fake healing because you bring bare minimum to the table (and yes, I fake heal like that as well during RNDs, for example on my magcro toon). Sure, it's enough to finish easier content, but it's not how you're meant to play that role - hence it's faking.

But yeah, if someone picks tank role and doesn't bring any taunt or pick healer role and doesn't bring any heal then you have full right to kick them, I'm with you here.

"Tanky" in this case is a moving target. You need to be able to hold the boss and survive without moving the boss around more than absolutely necessary. Can that be done without max resists and heavy armor? Sure. Even end game tanks arent always max resist and wear medium armor in some cases. Theres no strict definition as long as it performs the function in the content.

Healing is a good comparison. I'm spoiled by the healers I run with. Ill never struggle for resources, uptimes on group buffs are always there, and Ill never really have to worry about anything. Thats not really an expectation that I should have in a random normal though where I could end up with a level 10 healer with no access to orbs, shards, monster sets, etc. So I would say, yes, in a random normal, thats the bare minimum I should expect. Its not fake, its just not good. Its enough to clear the content because it needs to be. Random normals really arent meant for vet players.

If I were doing harder content, then yes, that bar gets raised, sometimes considerably, but not in normals.

Auth3nticGlitch

TequilaFire wrote: »

How do you tell the difference between a fake tank and a just a bad tank?
Sometimes we should also kick a bad DPS.

@TequilaFire A fake tank most of the time has 20k health and doesn’t taunt any enemies, the important part is does not taunt enemies since in normal dungeons health is not as important. Easy to spot within the first minute of a dungeon if you ask me.

TequilaFire

Auth3nticGlitch wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

How do you tell the difference between a fake tank and a just a bad tank?
Sometimes we should also kick a bad DPS.

@TequilaFire A fake tank most of the time has 20k health and doesn’t taunt any enemies, the important part is does not taunt enemies since in normal dungeons health is not as important. Easy to spot within the first minute of a dungeon if you ask me.

My point is that not all are fake tanks, some are new and don't know the ropes.
So I will never vote to kick unless it is a proven known repeat offender.