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All sets enabled PvP and particularly the return of Malacath seems like worst possible thing to play

Fawn4287
Fawn4287
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The devs should make Balance and not set variety the top priority in PvP. I’ve played this update and seen more build variety in classes in a couple of weeks than I’ve seen in years with the limited set options. This just shows that the supposed huge set variety is actually terrible for build variety causing everyone to run the same classes, skills and sets, I mean 1 in 2 builds runs around with wrecking blow, sword and board backbar 2h front bar with dawny as the main ult, how is that variety? This faux variety(a combination of a dozen sets and malacath) of gear makes balance near impossible and malacath has enabled another generation of cheesy heavy armour builds that in no way adhere to the appropriate tankyness, mobility and damage ratio. Proc sets but particularly Malacath just creates and enables bad, unbalanced PvP, after experiencing how much more fair, fast paced and fun PvP can be I just don’t want to return to the painfully bland, boring, stalemate PvP that all sets enabled brings.

It sounds absurd off the cuff a 25% damage boost to for a trade off to stop crit damage. In theory you miss out on plenty of crits which add up here and there but in reality most people are running around in heavy with a crit chance no where near 20% anyway. when you compare it to what else is out there its actually the damage output of 3, 5 piece damage buffs, think the damage of shieldbreaker, unchained aggressor and essence thief permanently up with no proc condition, its actually crazy, how can you ever get anywhere close to a semblance of balance with this in the game? To top it off this damage buff directly buffs proc sets which just adds fuel to the fire. Its crazy how you go in to cyrodil and for the most apart from stamblade ganks and magsorc most builds running around with the current set restrictions are fairly balanced and even those that are outright better aren’t by much. You step in to the sewers or worst of all battlegrounds and its tragic reality, procs galore, dks that refuse to let go of block with a combo of dots and proc sets buffed by malacath out damaging the healing of anything that isn’t a warden tank built almost the same way. Heavy armour, monster set malacath and what else do you need? Pair it with balorgh and you have more damage and pen than nearly any build running around in cyrodil currently has with 3 pieces of armour.

The only set I would like to see returned is vicious death, I think all PvP should become how cyrodil currently stands with 1 random campaign in Cyro and the IC being the only proc set enabled campaign and having a set option out of random daily BGs for proc enabled mode. It’s exactly like in card games seasonal is the official mode most play and wild is nothing banned poorly balanced mode some choose to play.
  • TheBonesXXX
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    You're assuming these percentages add.

    What if shield breaker is calculated first? What if essence thief is calculated first?

    All they need to do is write in code where malacath doesn't boost the sets, only the player.
  • geonsocal
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    the cp power gap between folks with cp 1200 plus and those with cp below 800 is larger now than ever...

    the right gear combos can make a huge difference to close that gap...
    PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place
  • Jameson18
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    I'm having an absolute blast in cyro.

    I've purposely shelved the warden and gone with Stamplar and Magblade. The 2 that i figured will statistically have the hardest time.

    Loving. It.
  • Sylosi
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    Such little understanding of why people play this game or what is required for at least reasonable balance in a PvP game.

    ( Hint: there is not a single player in Cyrodil who is genuinely bothered about balanced, skilled or competitive PvP )
    Edited by Sylosi on March 22, 2021 6:53PM
  • AureleosRex
    AureleosRex
    Soul Shriven
    Sets aren't the issue.

    The player base influences balance decisions and the devs wont balance PVP or PVE seperately.

    The classes aren't balanced. Most ults aren't balanced.

    Each class has at best one or two combos that are the best and most used. Often with cheap high damage ults like dawnbreaker or berserker strike.

    Then you've also got people using add ons that warn them when they're being targeted.

    People mostly don't want the game to be balanced and fair. On the PVE or PVP side.

    If they actually really applied all of their decisions for balancing the game to every skill equally then people would lose their minds.
  • Fawn4287
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    Jameson18 wrote: »
    I'm having an absolute blast in cyro.

    I've purposely shelved the warden and gone with Stamplar and Magblade. The 2 that i figured will statistically have the hardest time.

    Loving. It.

    I used to main a stamplar and its my favourite class to play but I find Cyro is too laggy to reliably land jabs 80% of the time nowadays.
  • Xargas13
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    I don't think malacath is the problem, proc sets are the problem, it requires you nothing but spamming left click on the mouse, I was able to withstand full blast of zaan without blocking, just healed through it, was out of resources then, but I saw the damage it dealt at least, it 20 freaking k, it's absurd. The only thing that I don't really like is that malacath is kind of necessity for some classes. And there are some overpowered builds for sure, there is almost no balance in this game.
  • Mitaka211
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    I am really surprised that people don't see the main issue with items like malacath. As it was said people use it for the flat damage increase , they never cared about crit to begin with, because they build like a tank/bruiser so they don't sacrifice anything at all when you look at the bigger picture.

    Just for the record i think proc sets are a far bigger problem than those mythics but what the mythics do is enable that playstyle where you can achieve things with your character that quite frankly put, walks all over the rules of how an mmo works. If you build to be a tank then you should be a tank, if you want to heal you build to heal, now people are able to achieve two roles with no problems and those rings are enabling them to do that. I have seen tanks who hit harder or equel with their dizzy swings than people who are using normal builds, with a bruiser / dmg role.

    Mythics are part of the problem , not the main problem but the stepping stone to why some players can do what they do. Hey if you are a tank and the whole team can't kill you i am fine with that, i just expect it to be like in a normal game where you know a tank is no threat to you, he can harrass you, debuff you but he can't kill you on his own and you can't kill him on your own. In ESO this is not the case, in ESO not only can that tank kill you, he can turn around and kill your entire team (if we assume they are using like what is considered the begginer gear which is usually crafted). I would like to remark that in my opinion that lone do it all warrior playstyle has been addressed in the major changes they have done, you can no longer solo a whole team from what i have seen since i started playing a week ago. The tankiness has been handled but the problem with extreme burst damage still remains and is even worse than before. Hey if you want to defend light attacking someone and taking half his health away more power to you but that is not what i consider fun or fair.

    Buying a fast car is very much like building a full proc/mythic character. It is fun for the first two weeks or so, but then that excitment from afk killing someone dies off and you realize you are bored and that's how games die. I am pretty sure from what i am seeing , that the devs have noticed how these items are simply not healthy for the game overall and i expect we will be seeing more and more changes that will bring us back to using the original sets of the game, not sure how they will do it (nerf the new or buff the old or set a limit to how many proc effects you can have active) but it is about time we got build crafting back in the game, not farm these 3 or 4 items and wipe the floor with everyone. And i am praying they finally keep their promise and make crafters important , cause right now what you can craft can be fun but if you come across a proc set/mythic guy, you are not doing anything to him, you will either die in 5 sec or he will be immortal and kill you in 10 simple as that. We need variaty back it's not even about how good or bad these special items are, the point is that you either use them or you are mediocre , no more investigating is needed. It's toxic to the game.
  • Firstmep
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    I mainly play bgs, and while malacath and procsets are still very much there, the extra base stats definetly impacted the meta.
    Its a lot easier now to outheal dot procs, than for example last patch, even on classes that previously struggled really hard.
    Burst seems to be the name of the game, and ive been seeing a lot of "hybrid" proc/stat builds pop up.

    Yes there are still people running around with high hp and procs, but stat based builds can actually compete now.

    I still think that down the line balancing procsets(like making them stat scaled) is the solution, as opposed to outright removing them.

    The balance team is already struggling to, well, balance the game, now imagine if they had to consider both proc and non proc environments.

    That would basically be non cp 2.0, where the devs basically just ignore an entire portion of the pvp population balance wise.

    And the thing is, currently some classes/specs perform much better in 1 environment than the other.

  • Jackey
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    They did say that they are working on something.
    I hope it gets done for next update.
    PS | EU
  • artal
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    Right now in bg burst is meta. Procs are viable option but not superior to stat builds.
    So right now anyone can play the way they want to and its all competitive.
  • Xargas13
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    artal wrote: »
    Right now in bg burst is meta. Procs are viable option but not superior to stat builds.
    So right now anyone can play the way they want to and its all competitive.

    I wouldn't say that, I'm using a stat build, met a warden n did a good damage on him, he did mediocre damage and I would have killed him, but all his procs blasted all at once and I was dead instantly. I have 28k health and heavy armor, and I had like a little bit more then half of my health left, so its 50% of my health gone in an instant. Stat builds are competitive when the procs are on cooldown, but when they blast you, they blast you...
  • TheBonesXXX
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    A lot of these responses negate people like me who play hybrid pressure builds where malacath is absolutely a requirement.

  • Vermintide
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    Jameson18 wrote: »
    I'm having an absolute blast in cyro.

    I've purposely shelved the warden and gone with Stamplar and Magblade. The 2 that i figured will statistically have the hardest time.

    Loving. It.

    How are you finding the magblade, what are you running on it?

    I'm feeling it's hard to even find something to run on magblade that ISN'T a "proc set". Fair enough take away the cheesy stuff like Zaan and Caluurion's, but 90% of the gear my magblade relied on to even try compete with its stamina cousin for burst (Spell Strategist, War Maiden, etc) are technically procs.

    So basically I've been runnning around Cyro at a snail's pace with Shackle and Spinners on, 1 Domi and 1 Kena, watching other players enjoy the no-proc meta thinking "Boy, it sure would be nice to have some skills that do anything".

    Stuff like Malacath is worse than procs ever were though tbh. Proc sets: 2 or more gear slots, have conditions to activate, usually provide ~10% damage boost. Malacath? 1 gear slot, always on, no questions asked, flat 25% damage boost. Totally balanced. Sure you can't crit, but literally nobody builds for crit in PVP anyway. Zero down side.
    Edited by Vermintide on March 23, 2021 11:45PM
  • kingsirdrmr
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    A lot of these responses negate people like me who play hybrid pressure builds where malacath is absolutely a requirement.

    A lot of responses here also negate theorycrafters, troll builds, people with the game sense to beat players crutching on proc sets, and people who want build variety in Cyrodiil. I enjoy testing on the main server to get a more accurate community reaction, but hopefully they no longer try cramming them in while in the midst of making all-hands-on-deck content.
    For the Queen! | PC/NA, Cyrodiil, IC, Quests, CP 2000+[*] Tyaminal-rabi | Khajiiti Sorceress [*] Vita-rabi | Khajiiti Warden werewolf[*] Dr Good-and-Sexy | Argonian Warden[*] the Southern Mare | Redguard Necromancer[*] Sally Two-Horns | Orsimer Nightblade
  • TheBonesXXX
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    A lot of these responses negate people like me who play hybrid pressure builds where malacath is absolutely a requirement.

    A lot of responses here also negate theorycrafters, troll builds, people with the game sense to beat players crutching on proc sets, and people who want build variety in Cyrodiil. I enjoy testing on the main server to get a more accurate community reaction, but hopefully they no longer try cramming them in while in the midst of making all-hands-on-deck content.

    Yeah. A lot of posters here are extremely dishonest. Kinda sucks.

    But until hybrids get more viable sets, it'll be hard.
  • Fawn4287
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    A lot of these responses negate people like me who play hybrid pressure builds where malacath is absolutely a requirement.

    A lot of responses here also negate theorycrafters, troll builds, people with the game sense to beat players crutching on proc sets, and people who want build variety in Cyrodiil. I enjoy testing on the main server to get a more accurate community reaction, but hopefully they no longer try cramming them in while in the midst of making all-hands-on-deck content.

    Yeah. A lot of posters here are extremely dishonest. Kinda sucks.

    But until hybrids get more viable sets, it'll be hard.

    The games consistent differentiation into martial and magical damage has always made hybrids incredibly difficult and almost always an underperforming option, wanting balance to cater for an incredibly niche off meta build that deliberately goes against the core design of effective power and penetration is just absurd. Yes with sets like new moon and balorgh you can use magica ults on a stam class to a good effect and vice versa but you can’t expect your stamsorc to start throwing out 13k c frags. It would be like asking for my orc warden in medium to be a meta healing option for hard mode vet trials, its just deliberately making a suboptimal build then complaining about its ineffectiveness.
  • Chilly-McFreeze
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    Fawn4287 wrote: »
    A lot of these responses negate people like me who play hybrid pressure builds where malacath is absolutely a requirement.

    A lot of responses here also negate theorycrafters, troll builds, people with the game sense to beat players crutching on proc sets, and people who want build variety in Cyrodiil. I enjoy testing on the main server to get a more accurate community reaction, but hopefully they no longer try cramming them in while in the midst of making all-hands-on-deck content.

    Yeah. A lot of posters here are extremely dishonest. Kinda sucks.

    But until hybrids get more viable sets, it'll be hard.

    Yes with sets like new moon and balorgh you can use magica ults on a stam class to a good effect and vice versa but you can’t expect your stamsorc to start throwing out 13k c frags.

    Funny thing is you already can. Or you could until they took out everything but the Most basic sets. New CP makes it even easier. Malacath was a worthy trade off for hybrids.

    As I see, malacath isnt the issue per se. The synergy between mala, procs and tank builds is.
    So what to do to break this up?
    Would allowing proc sets to crit again while adjusting their base damage down a tad resolve this?
  • Fawn4287
    Fawn4287
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    Fawn4287 wrote: »
    A lot of these responses negate people like me who play hybrid pressure builds where malacath is absolutely a requirement.

    A lot of responses here also negate theorycrafters, troll builds, people with the game sense to beat players crutching on proc sets, and people who want build variety in Cyrodiil. I enjoy testing on the main server to get a more accurate community reaction, but hopefully they no longer try cramming them in while in the midst of making all-hands-on-deck content.

    Yeah. A lot of posters here are extremely dishonest. Kinda sucks.

    But until hybrids get more viable sets, it'll be hard.

    Yes with sets like new moon and balorgh you can use magica ults on a stam class to a good effect and vice versa but you can’t expect your stamsorc to start throwing out 13k c frags.

    Funny thing is you already can. Or you could until they took out everything but the Most basic sets. New CP makes it even easier. Malacath was a worthy trade off for hybrids.

    As I see, malacath isnt the issue per se. The synergy between mala, procs and tank builds is.
    So what to do to break this up?
    Would allowing proc sets to crit again while adjusting their base damage down a tad resolve this?

    Making malacath not buff proc sets and equate damage % to your crit % chance up to 15% or 20%, meaning heavy armour builds get far less than medium and light armour builds. Proc sets should give the base advertised damage tooltip at their absolute max, not buffed by CP, class or major/minor buffs like beserk to an absolute PvE style glass cannon like a magblade bomber getting the max VD tooltip in all divines damage based sets, whilst a 50k health heavy armour build in all impen with 25k stam gets a damage tootip of half or a third.
  • spotzhopz
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    Fawn4287 wrote: »
    Fawn4287 wrote: »
    A lot of these responses negate people like me who play hybrid pressure builds where malacath is absolutely a requirement.

    A lot of responses here also negate theorycrafters, troll builds, people with the game sense to beat players crutching on proc sets, and people who want build variety in Cyrodiil. I enjoy testing on the main server to get a more accurate community reaction, but hopefully they no longer try cramming them in while in the midst of making all-hands-on-deck content.

    Yeah. A lot of posters here are extremely dishonest. Kinda sucks.

    But until hybrids get more viable sets, it'll be hard.

    Yes with sets like new moon and balorgh you can use magica ults on a stam class to a good effect and vice versa but you can’t expect your stamsorc to start throwing out 13k c frags.

    Funny thing is you already can. Or you could until they took out everything but the Most basic sets. New CP makes it even easier. Malacath was a worthy trade off for hybrids.

    As I see, malacath isnt the issue per se. The synergy between mala, procs and tank builds is.
    So what to do to break this up?
    Would allowing proc sets to crit again while adjusting their base damage down a tad resolve this?

    Making malacath not buff proc sets and equate damage % to your crit % chance up to 15% or 20%, meaning heavy armour builds get far less than medium and light armour builds. Proc sets should give the base advertised damage tooltip at their absolute max, not buffed by CP, class or major/minor buffs like beserk to an absolute PvE style glass cannon like a magblade bomber getting the max VD tooltip in all divines damage based sets, whilst a 50k health heavy armour build in all impen with 25k stam gets a damage tootip of half or a third.

    Wait are you complaining about people who sacrifice crit resist by taking divines over inpen getting more damage? Because thats exactly how that should work
  • Fawn4287
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    spotzhopz wrote: »
    Fawn4287 wrote: »
    Fawn4287 wrote: »
    A lot of these responses negate people like me who play hybrid pressure builds where malacath is absolutely a requirement.

    A lot of responses here also negate theorycrafters, troll builds, people with the game sense to beat players crutching on proc sets, and people who want build variety in Cyrodiil. I enjoy testing on the main server to get a more accurate community reaction, but hopefully they no longer try cramming them in while in the midst of making all-hands-on-deck content.

    Yeah. A lot of posters here are extremely dishonest. Kinda sucks.

    But until hybrids get more viable sets, it'll be hard.

    Yes with sets like new moon and balorgh you can use magica ults on a stam class to a good effect and vice versa but you can’t expect your stamsorc to start throwing out 13k c frags.

    Funny thing is you already can. Or you could until they took out everything but the Most basic sets. New CP makes it even easier. Malacath was a worthy trade off for hybrids.

    As I see, malacath isnt the issue per se. The synergy between mala, procs and tank builds is.
    So what to do to break this up?
    Would allowing proc sets to crit again while adjusting their base damage down a tad resolve this?

    Making malacath not buff proc sets and equate damage % to your crit % chance up to 15% or 20%, meaning heavy armour builds get far less than medium and light armour builds. Proc sets should give the base advertised damage tooltip at their absolute max, not buffed by CP, class or major/minor buffs like beserk to an absolute PvE style glass cannon like a magblade bomber getting the max VD tooltip in all divines damage based sets, whilst a 50k health heavy armour build in all impen with 25k stam gets a damage tootip of half or a third.

    Wait are you complaining about people who sacrifice crit resist by taking divines over inpen getting more damage? Because thats exactly how that should work


    No, how could you possibly interpret glass cannon bomber =full tool tip, 50k health heavy armour =1/2 - 1/3 of the tool tip as running divines over impen giving less damage?
  • MurderMostFoul
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    artal wrote: »
    Right now in bg burst is meta. Procs are viable option but not superior to stat builds.
    So right now anyone can play the way they want to and its all competitive.

    Agree 100%.

    In BGs, you can play stat/burst, you can play procs, or a mix and find success.

    But looking at Deathmatch, the ceiling is higher with burst builds. They simply have a higher potential for racking up kills.
    Edited by MurderMostFoul on March 25, 2021 6:12PM
    “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
  • Mitaka211
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    artal wrote: »
    Right now in bg burst is meta. Procs are viable option but not superior to stat builds.
    So right now anyone can play the way they want to and its all competitive.

    From playing a bit more i can not agree more. I will be honest the first time i read the changes i was super sceptical but i am starting to really enjoy this update. Stat builds and procs are getting real close to being balanced i think, i haven't had one instant where i was like "What the hell was that!?" lol. I even got some of my crafted gear out , which was in my bank for like 2 expansions.
  • angelofdeath333
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    To Wear Spriggans and hundings again feels alot like the PvP we had in clockwork city, it was great then and it is great now. People die, noone is rediculously tanky and you can kill everyone. I really think they should allow monster-sets though.
  • angelofdeath333
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    geonsocal wrote: »
    the cp power gap between folks with cp 1200 plus and those with cp below 800 is larger now than ever...

    the right gear combos can make a huge difference to close that gap...

    ...as it should, if youre at a higher level, why shouldnt you be more powerful? Guys with 100cp was at a huge disadvantage against 810s before the CP rework too. Just grind CP
    Edited by angelofdeath333 on March 26, 2021 10:17PM
  • StarOfElyon
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    A lot of these responses negate people like me who play hybrid pressure builds where malacath is absolutely a requirement.

    I play hybrids too. But Malacath enables a broken system. The game will be better without gimmicks like Malacath and a bunch of over-powered proc sets.
  • Waffennacht
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    If everyone dies, if there's no being tanky; then there's only one viable way to build.

    That means only damage dealing builds are worth being; meaning 0 diversity
    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
    1300+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er

    Waffennacht' Builds
  • TheBonesXXX
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    A lot of these responses negate people like me who play hybrid pressure builds where malacath is absolutely a requirement.

    I play hybrids too. But Malacath enables a broken system. The game will be better without gimmicks like Malacath and a bunch of over-powered proc sets.

    All they have to do is code Malacath to not buff procs.

    I don't use what the forums calls "procs", I'd just not prefer people coming to the forums crying nerf because they over estimate their ability and skill and under estimate the fact they lost due to being inferior.
  • Armethius
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    i had malacath and earth gore and stuhns pre-procalypse. i am better now even tho i’d rather have my malacaths back. everyone complaining doesn’t know how to iterate and optimize.
  • geonsocal
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    geonsocal wrote: »
    the cp power gap between folks with cp 1200 plus and those with cp below 800 is larger now than ever...

    the right gear combos can make a huge difference to close that gap...

    ...as it should, if youre at a higher level, why shouldnt you be more powerful? Guys with 100cp was at a huge disadvantage against 810s before the CP rework too. Just grind CP

    that's one way of looking at it...another view might be pvp (in particular cyrodiil pvp) needs a constant influx of new pvp players to replace all the folks whom have left over the years...the huge power gap isn't so appealing to those players with sub 600 or 700 cp...

    across most servers/platforms we are down to one active map: grey host...
    PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place
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