No burst + no proc = no kills

Sheuib

I think I have come to the conclusion of why proc sets are so popular. It really is the builds that do not have a good class burst or weapon burst that need the proc sets to get kills. I mean seriously try and put together a dot build in the current cyrodiil with one spamable and no burst and see if you get any kills. Class dots are laughable damage and useless if they do not provide some sort of buff or debuff. If they really want to make proc sets go away provide more burst to all the builds or make dots mean something.

UntouchableHunter

Sheuib wrote: »

I think I have come to the conclusion of why proc sets are so popular. It really is the builds that do not have a good class burst or weapon burst that need the proc sets to get kills. I mean seriously try and put together a dot build in the current cyrodiil with one spamable and no burst and see if you get any kills. Class dots are laughable damage and useless if they do not provide some sort of buff or debuff. If they really want to make proc sets go away provide more burst to all the builds or make dots mean something.

Well said.

We are seeing now a lot of players going Stam or mag Sorcs now because the crazy burst. When you get the sorc you can destroy players in 2 secs, not fight at all just a burst.

When you get a dot build against a sorc is ridiculous, the dots can even drop the sorc healths to 50% and we you do it you don't have a execute and only one click in vigor the sorc get full health.

L_Nici

Thats just wrong. Most people go Magsorc, Magplar and Stamblade. Magsorc because of the Burst, Magplar because their insane DoT pressure paired with Jesus Beam to counter especially the Stamblades with their insane Surprise Attack hits.

techyeshic

L_Nici wrote: »

Thats just wrong. Most people go Magsorc, Magplar and Stamblade. Magsorc because of the Burst, Magplar because their insane DoT pressure paired with Jesus Beam to counter especially the Stamblades with their insane Surprise Attack hits.

What magplar DOT pressure? You do realize jabs/sweeps is not a DOT

L_Nici

@techyeshic Jabs are a DoT they even were buffed previously by Thaumaturge, Flare, Reflective Light/Vampires bane together with Entropy paired with a Jesus beam to finish.

red_emu

techyeshic wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Thats just wrong. Most people go Magsorc, Magplar and Stamblade. Magsorc because of the Burst, Magplar because their insane DoT pressure paired with Jesus Beam to counter especially the Stamblades with their insane Surprise Attack hits.

What magplar DOT pressure? You do realize jabs/sweeps is not a DOT

Especially when jabs simply don't register because where the player is on screen is not where they are on the server, so your just jabbing air. Or you can be standing right in front of someone and Jesus beam is "out of range" 😂

techyeshic

L_Nici wrote: »

@techyeshic Jabs are a DoT they even were buffed previously by Thaumaturge, Flare, Reflective Light/Vampires bane together with Entropy paired with a Jesus beam to finish.

They are no longer a dot. Flare never was. And those others you mention are incredibly weak.

Joy_Division

L_Nici wrote: »

@techyeshic Jabs are a DoT they even were buffed previously by Thaumaturge, Flare, Reflective Light/Vampires bane together with Entropy paired with a Jesus beam to finish.

Not any more. Flare is a gimmicky snipe skill on a spec poorly suited for it, Reflective Light is weak, and Entropy is available to all classes. Don't even get me started on POTL/Backlash which is supposed to be equivalent to Warden Shalks. Magplar kit without procs comes nowhere near Sorcs, Stamblades, or Stamdens.

techyeshic

Joy_Division wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

@techyeshic Jabs are a DoT they even were buffed previously by Thaumaturge, Flare, Reflective Light/Vampires bane together with Entropy paired with a Jesus beam to finish.

Not any more. Flare is a gimmicky snipe skill on a spec poorly suited for it, Reflective Light is weak, and Entropy is available to all classes. Don't even get me started on POTL/Backlash which is supposed to be equivalent to Warden Shalks. Magplar kit without procs comes nowhere near Sorcs, Stamblades, or Stamdens.

I have been running magdk and thats even better. Better DOTs and whip is a good burst with leap. I can get my stats higher with templar because all I have to do is buff and sweep.

spacefracking

I'm not very good at this game. But I have seen some players that can thrash 10 people in a couple of minutes with this new patch.Its a patch. You got weaker (and I definitely got weaker), but next patch may be better. As long as we can still run the same content as before, i am satisfied.

Properly balancing a game like this is an impossible endeavor. It'll change soon. Don't be bummed out

SshadowSscale

Title correction: No burst+ nos skill = no kills
If you are struggling to get kills without carry sets then that is a l2p issue

spacefracking

SshadowSscale wrote: »

Title correction: No burst+ nos skill = no kills
If you are struggling to get kills without carry sets then that is a l2p issue

Ok, this is accurate. It was not accurate before.

sly007

Sheuib wrote: »

I think I have come to the conclusion of why proc sets are so popular. It really is the builds that do not have a good class burst or weapon burst that need the proc sets to get kills. I mean seriously try and put together a dot build in the current cyrodiil with one spamable and no burst and see if you get any kills. Class dots are laughable damage and useless if they do not provide some sort of buff or debuff. If they really want to make proc sets go away provide more burst to all the builds or make dots mean something.

L2p issue indeed. I quit because the proc. The first procalypse was bad. The second was bad. And I am pretty sure the third will be bad. I'm enjoying no proc cyrodiil until the proc come back.

Oakenaxe

red_emu wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

L_Nici wrote: »

Thats just wrong. Most people go Magsorc, Magplar and Stamblade. Magsorc because of the Burst, Magplar because their insane DoT pressure paired with Jesus Beam to counter especially the Stamblades with their insane Surprise Attack hits.

What magplar DOT pressure? You do realize jabs/sweeps is not a DOT

Especially when jabs simply don't register because where the player is on screen is not where they are on the server, so your just jabbing air. Or you can be standing right in front of someone and Jesus beam is "out of range" 😂

LOL, happens all the time!

Sheuib

sly007 wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

I think I have come to the conclusion of why proc sets are so popular. It really is the builds that do not have a good class burst or weapon burst that need the proc sets to get kills. I mean seriously try and put together a dot build in the current cyrodiil with one spamable and no burst and see if you get any kills. Class dots are laughable damage and useless if they do not provide some sort of buff or debuff. If they really want to make proc sets go away provide more burst to all the builds or make dots mean something.

L2p issue indeed. I quit because the proc. The first procalypse was bad. The second was bad. And I am pretty sure the third will be bad. I'm enjoying no proc cyrodiil until the proc come back.

It is not a L2P issue. Class dots are crap. Compare any class dot to a proc and you will see. You don't even get the equivalent tic from a crit that you get from a noncrit proc tic. They are not even worth slotting if you don't get some sort of additional benefit from them like a buff or debuff.

Fully buffed vampires bane is 12312 over 16 seconds in a PVP setup. That is 769.5 dps.
Degeneration is 11172 over 10 seconds. That is 1117.2 dps. (Note don't take the everlasting magic passive in mages guild. It only extends the time but has the same total damage. So, overall a dps loss.)
Solar barrage is 2179 every 2 seconds. That is 1089.5 dps. (That is the lesser used morph of solar flare.)

Compare those dots to what I can use from a proc set.

Grothdarr 2124 a second.
Auroran 1353 every 0.5 seconds. That is 2706 dps.
Unleashed 19734 over 10 seconds. That is 1973.4 dps.
Venomous smite 2241 a second.
Viper 6400 over 4 seconds. That is 1600 dps. The closest one to any class dot and still better.

And, using stat gear doesn't make those class dots equivalent either. It would be insane to use stat gear over proc gear especially if you don't have a reliable burst to put someone into execute range.

We had one patch that class dots actually meant something. But, wow the complaints about that were out of this world. When the reality was no-one wanted to do the simple thing of slotting a purge. Which is what people say they want. They want to have skills that have counter plays. But, not really. They just want to win.

If anyone really thinks it's a L2P issue then prove me wrong. Put together a dot build with no burst or procs and see if you can get kills then post the video to this thread. And, please don't do it in the middle of a zerg with 10 people hitting the same person. That isn't a real kill with dots.

artal

What exactly is no burst in your opinion?
I made stamdk with dots and leap and have no issue killing people. I do have 6k+wd so i ask again what is burst. My leap? I would say it is but ill ask than what class don't have acces to burst skill/ult?

Ofc if you dont have high wd/sd and dont use any form of burst or ultimate and just relly on dots you wont kill anyone. But why would you do that?

Sheuib

artal wrote: »

What exactly is no burst in your opinion?
I made stamdk with dots and leap and have no issue killing people. I do have 6k+wd so i ask again what is burst. My leap? I would say it is but ill ask than what class don't have acces to burst skill/ult?

Ofc if you dont have high wd/sd and dont use any form of burst or ultimate and just relly on dots you wont kill anyone. But why would you do that?

So, you're not using dizzying swing? How many dots are you putting on a person? Is this one on one or in the middle of a big fight? How exactly are you killing anyone with just dots and leap?

I know your class dots are weak even with 6k weapon damage compared to a proc dot. I also know if you are rocking 6k weapon damage you are sacrificing penetration and either armor or regen. I highly doubt you are killing any descent players one on one with just dots and leap.

nesakinter

Nope, that will lead to a DoT meta. Just nerf procs and call it a day.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

[snip] Show me a 2h warden that isn't casting flies dot and I'll show you [snip] missing out on 5% dmg. Each dot has functionality and low damage... and if you have friends that damage can add up quick if not dealt with. But dots can't replace main spammables that's sole purpose is generally just damage, that would up end the balance of skill. Understand why you should have a dot on your build but over reliance on any one type of damage is overboard. You only have 10 skills slotted, [snip] three different spammables that all just do damage with no utility... wasteful [snip]. But have a dot, an aoe and a spammable and now you got a build.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

CSose

And no balance either. Balance is the same as it ever was essentially. The ball groups have figured out how to take us right back to where we were before the senseless restrictions.

Sheuib

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

[snip] Show me a 2h warden that isn't casting flies dot and I'll show you [snip] missing out on 5% dmg. Each dot has functionality and low damage... and if you have friends that damage can add up quick if not dealt with. But dots can't replace main spammables that's sole purpose is generally just damage, that would up end the balance of skill. Understand why you should have a dot on your build but over reliance on any one type of damage is overboard. You only have 10 skills slotted, [snip] three different spammables that all just do damage with no utility... wasteful [snip]. But have a dot, an aoe and a spammable and now you got a build.

So, you're suggesting it is that dot that is killing the person and not the warden spamming dizzying swing in combination with subterranean assault. Sure the extra damage is nice but let's be real it is the burst combination that is killing the person. Flies just make the burst more effective. The damage is pitiful.

xDeusEJRx

Sheuib wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

[snip] Show me a 2h warden that isn't casting flies dot and I'll show you [snip] missing out on 5% dmg. Each dot has functionality and low damage... and if you have friends that damage can add up quick if not dealt with. But dots can't replace main spammables that's sole purpose is generally just damage, that would up end the balance of skill. Understand why you should have a dot on your build but over reliance on any one type of damage is overboard. You only have 10 skills slotted, [snip] three different spammables that all just do damage with no utility... wasteful [snip]. But have a dot, an aoe and a spammable and now you got a build.

So, you're suggesting it is that dot that is killing the person and not the warden spamming dizzying swing in combination with subterranean assault. Sure the extra damage is nice but let's be real it is the burst combination that is killing the person. Flies just make the burst more effective. The damage is pitiful.

Some dots hit harder than you might think, my stam warden build's flies used to hit for 1k-1.2k per tick last patch. This patch they hit even harder due to having even more WD. This is even more so on Necros who have built in 15% dot damage. My magcro hits 1.5k-2k dot ticks with entropy and flame clench. My magplar too with his solar barrage ticking 1.2k on people in Cyrodiil

Abyssmol

Sheuib wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

[snip] Show me a 2h warden that isn't casting flies dot and I'll show you [snip] missing out on 5% dmg. Each dot has functionality and low damage... and if you have friends that damage can add up quick if not dealt with. But dots can't replace main spammables that's sole purpose is generally just damage, that would up end the balance of skill. Understand why you should have a dot on your build but over reliance on any one type of damage is overboard. You only have 10 skills slotted, [snip] three different spammables that all just do damage with no utility... wasteful [snip]. But have a dot, an aoe and a spammable and now you got a build.

So, you're suggesting it is that dot that is killing the person and not the warden spamming dizzying swing in combination with subterranean assault. Sure the extra damage is nice but let's be real it is the burst combination that is killing the person. Flies just make the burst more effective. The damage is pitiful.

Stamina players don't understand this! They have Dizzy / Executioner plus their ultimate and don't really need DOTs to kill anyone! If you don't experience the problem there is no problem...

kapachia

Sheuib wrote: »

sly007 wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

I think I have come to the conclusion of why proc sets are so popular. It really is the builds that do not have a good class burst or weapon burst that need the proc sets to get kills. I mean seriously try and put together a dot build in the current cyrodiil with one spamable and no burst and see if you get any kills. Class dots are laughable damage and useless if they do not provide some sort of buff or debuff. If they really want to make proc sets go away provide more burst to all the builds or make dots mean something.

L2p issue indeed. I quit because the proc. The first procalypse was bad. The second was bad. And I am pretty sure the third will be bad. I'm enjoying no proc cyrodiil until the proc come back.

It is not a L2P issue. Class dots are crap. Compare any class dot to a proc and you will see. You don't even get the equivalent tic from a crit that you get from a noncrit proc tic. They are not even worth slotting if you don't get some sort of additional benefit from them like a buff or debuff.

Fully buffed vampires bane is 12312 over 16 seconds in a PVP setup. That is 769.5 dps.
Degeneration is 11172 over 10 seconds. That is 1117.2 dps. (Note don't take the everlasting magic passive in mages guild. It only extends the time but has the same total damage. So, overall a dps loss.)
Solar barrage is 2179 every 2 seconds. That is 1089.5 dps. (That is the lesser used morph of solar flare.)

Compare those dots to what I can use from a proc set.

Grothdarr 2124 a second.
Auroran 1353 every 0.5 seconds. That is 2706 dps.
Unleashed 19734 over 10 seconds. That is 1973.4 dps.
Venomous smite 2241 a second.
Viper 6400 over 4 seconds. That is 1600 dps. The closest one to any class dot and still better.

And, using stat gear doesn't make those class dots equivalent either. It would be insane to use stat gear over proc gear especially if you don't have a reliable burst to put someone into execute range.

We had one patch that class dots actually meant something. But, wow the complaints about that were out of this world. When the reality was no-one wanted to do the simple thing of slotting a purge. Which is what people say they want. They want to have skills that have counter plays. But, not really. They just want to win.

If anyone really thinks it's a L2P issue then prove me wrong. Put together a dot build with no burst or procs and see if you can get kills then post the video to this thread. And, please don't do it in the middle of a zerg with 10 people hitting the same person. That isn't a real kill with dots.

That is because you got hooked on FREE damage buff from procs.

[snip] We all have to make choices... cannot be tanky and deal free crazy damages..

[Edited to remove Baiting]

kapachia

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

[snip] Show me a 2h warden that isn't casting flies dot and I'll show you [snip] missing out on 5% dmg. Each dot has functionality and low damage... and if you have friends that damage can add up quick if not dealt with. But dots can't replace main spammables that's sole purpose is generally just damage, that would up end the balance of skill. Understand why you should have a dot on your build but over reliance on any one type of damage is overboard. You only have 10 skills slotted, [snip] three different spammables that all just do damage with no utility... wasteful [snip]. But have a dot, an aoe and a spammable and now you got a build.

So, you're suggesting it is that dot that is killing the person and not the warden spamming dizzying swing in combination with subterranean assault. Sure the extra damage is nice but let's be real it is the burst combination that is killing the person. Flies just make the burst more effective. The damage is pitiful.

Some dots hit harder than you might think, my stam warden build's flies used to hit for 1k-1.2k per tick last patch. This patch they hit even harder due to having even more WD. This is even more so on Necros who have built in 15% dot damage. My magcro hits 1.5k-2k dot ticks with entropy and flame clench. My magplar too with his solar barrage ticking 1.2k on people in Cyrodiil

THIS.

Players adapt and thrive with new parameter. Players been hooked on free proc damage carry for few patches and just cannot fathom a life without free proc dam carry.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Sheuib wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

[snip] Show me a 2h warden that isn't casting flies dot and I'll show you [snip] missing out on 5% dmg. Each dot has functionality and low damage... and if you have friends that damage can add up quick if not dealt with. But dots can't replace main spammables that's sole purpose is generally just damage, that would up end the balance of skill. Understand why you should have a dot on your build but over reliance on any one type of damage is overboard. You only have 10 skills slotted, [snip] three different spammables that all just do damage with no utility... wasteful [snip]. But have a dot, an aoe and a spammable and now you got a build.

So, you're suggesting it is that dot that is killing the person and not the warden spamming dizzying swing in combination with subterranean assault. Sure the extra damage is nice but let's be real it is the burst combination that is killing the person. Flies just make the burst more effective. The damage is pitiful.

Absolutely, you do not know what will remove that last hitpoint. A player with 1 hit point can kill you, no intelligent person dismisses damage simply because it doesn't have big numbers. That warden will hit flies, sub assualt and dizzy swing to hit you with all three and have wings for 10% extra damage. And if he doesn't kill you, them your free to heal, shield, ect. The damage he's done. This is basic concepts. Pressure is pressure and dot have a role in that but they're not meant to be burst and neither of those are aoe. It's why you have three options in cp to increase damage. Use your skills properly and you won't have any problems.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Kwoung

[snip] My wife and I have been trying a bunch of different characters/classes and not having any issues at all getting kills. As a matter of fact, we used to avoid the kill 40 player quests previously as they took forever to complete, now we complete them in no time. Cyro is actually pretty fun at the moment IMHO.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Rhaegar75

kapachia wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

sly007 wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

I think I have come to the conclusion of why proc sets are so popular. It really is the builds that do not have a good class burst or weapon burst that need the proc sets to get kills. I mean seriously try and put together a dot build in the current cyrodiil with one spamable and no burst and see if you get any kills. Class dots are laughable damage and useless if they do not provide some sort of buff or debuff. If they really want to make proc sets go away provide more burst to all the builds or make dots mean something.

L2p issue indeed. I quit because the proc. The first procalypse was bad. The second was bad. And I am pretty sure the third will be bad. I'm enjoying no proc cyrodiil until the proc come back.

It is not a L2P issue. Class dots are crap. Compare any class dot to a proc and you will see. You don't even get the equivalent tic from a crit that you get from a noncrit proc tic. They are not even worth slotting if you don't get some sort of additional benefit from them like a buff or debuff.

Fully buffed vampires bane is 12312 over 16 seconds in a PVP setup. That is 769.5 dps.
Degeneration is 11172 over 10 seconds. That is 1117.2 dps. (Note don't take the everlasting magic passive in mages guild. It only extends the time but has the same total damage. So, overall a dps loss.)
Solar barrage is 2179 every 2 seconds. That is 1089.5 dps. (That is the lesser used morph of solar flare.)

Compare those dots to what I can use from a proc set.

Grothdarr 2124 a second.
Auroran 1353 every 0.5 seconds. That is 2706 dps.
Unleashed 19734 over 10 seconds. That is 1973.4 dps.
Venomous smite 2241 a second.
Viper 6400 over 4 seconds. That is 1600 dps. The closest one to any class dot and still better.

And, using stat gear doesn't make those class dots equivalent either. It would be insane to use stat gear over proc gear especially if you don't have a reliable burst to put someone into execute range.

We had one patch that class dots actually meant something. But, wow the complaints about that were out of this world. When the reality was no-one wanted to do the simple thing of slotting a purge. Which is what people say they want. They want to have skills that have counter plays. But, not really. They just want to win.

If anyone really thinks it's a L2P issue then prove me wrong. Put together a dot build with no burst or procs and see if you can get kills then post the video to this thread. And, please don't do it in the middle of a zerg with 10 people hitting the same person. That isn't a real kill with dots.

That is because you got hooked on FREE damage buff from procs.

[snip] We all have to make choices... cannot be tanky and deal free crazy damages..

I agree with you unless we are not including wardens.
MagDens are not great if you take their procs away....yes they can be annoying but not as lethal
StamDens remain a freakshow as they still combine too much protection, healing and damage.

I'd like to use my own examples: I 'main' DKs and Plars and I'm a mediocre PvPer at best...casual, lazy etc. With my plars & DKs I have to work really hard for my kills.

However...magsorcs and wardens allow me to just get kills and with so much less effort just because of the innate characteristics of the class. Shame I have not managed to train myself to like playing one as a main.

I can't comment on Necros: never played one long enough.

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

[snip] Show me a 2h warden that isn't casting flies dot and I'll show you [snip] missing out on 5% dmg. Each dot has functionality and low damage... and if you have friends that damage can add up quick if not dealt with. But dots can't replace main spammables that's sole purpose is generally just damage, that would up end the balance of skill. Understand why you should have a dot on your build but over reliance on any one type of damage is overboard. You only have 10 skills slotted, [snip] three different spammables that all just do damage with no utility... wasteful [snip]. But have a dot, an aoe and a spammable and now you got a build.

So, you're suggesting it is that dot that is killing the person and not the warden spamming dizzying swing in combination with subterranean assault. Sure the extra damage is nice but let's be real it is the burst combination that is killing the person. Flies just make the burst more effective. The damage is pitiful.

Absolutely, you do not know what will remove that last hitpoint. A player with 1 hit point can kill you, no intelligent person dismisses damage simply because it doesn't have big numbers. That warden will hit flies, sub assualt and dizzy swing to hit you with all three and have wings for 10% extra damage. And if he doesn't kill you, them your free to heal, shield, ect. The damage he's done. This is basic concepts. Pressure is pressure and dot have a role in that but they're not meant to be burst and neither of those are aoe. It's why you have three options in cp to increase damage. Use your skills properly and you won't have any problems.

[snip]

In theory it makes perfect sense but what you are suggesting tends to happen only if the warden has taken time to go and get a coffee whilst you are frantically try to survive their pressure.....in the meantime, whilst they are drinking their coffee and maybe have a cake, their class will allow them to quickly heal up and tank you to death

Kwoung wrote: »

[snip] My wife and I have been trying a bunch of different characters/classes and not having any issues at all getting kills. As a matter of fact, we used to avoid the kill 40 player quests previously as they took forever to complete, now we complete them in no time. Cyro is actually pretty fun at the moment IMHO.

Cyro is indeed a lot of fun now! I was doing a lot of BGs last night and it reminded me how toxic some builds can be

ZOS_ConnorG

Greetings all,

After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for rule violations, mostly Baiting. Ensure when engaging in a discussion that you keep said discussion civil, constructive, and within the rules.

You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.

Sandman929

One thing I see in a lot of posts that I think is tough to argue with is that proc DoTs are far superior to class DoTs, and IMO that shouldn't be.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Many a time have I turned a fight around even after they got a wombo combo on me as their opener... I'm not saying it's easy, I'm saying:
1. Your not out of the fight tell your out of the fight.
2. Never discount the smallest advantage.
3. Bully the weak.
4. Never be in a position of weakness

That how pvp works and complaining about it only show that these four rules are really hard to enact in practice. But if you adamantly practice at them, you'll become better.