Crimson and Other Proc Sets

Sahidom

As many players know now. Crimson set is a very effective set in PVP. As well as numerous other proc damaging and healing sets. I was wondering what's ZOS's rational was then when previously they thought this mechanic was overpowering when similar Templar similar skill mechanic was nerfed with a sledgehammer. Here is the change notes and developer's comment from 3.05.

Update 3.0.5
Blazing Shield: Reduced the amount of damage done by this morph to 33/36/39/42% of the damage absorbed by the shield, down from 50/51/52/53%.
Developer Comments: Blazing Shield builds have proven to be extremely effective due to being able to stack Health to improve both their survivability and damage done. We've reduced the effectiveness of this ability so that there is more of an opportunity cost to having so much Health.

This comparison could be made across other sets that were released that outperform core class skill kits. This seems to a growing issue with set releases and past change logs, where class or other skills parallel the item set proc effect.

Sangwyne

Like it or not, Crimson falls in line with ZOS' set value standards, which usually tend towards 2000 DPS (Night Terror, Poisonous Serpent, Unleashed Terror, Venomous Smite), 1000 DPS+1000 healing/s (Leeching Plate, Bahraha's Curse, Vicecanon of Venom), or 2000 healing/s (Winter's Respite, Draugr's Rest, Robes of the Hist). Outliers usually either have limitations, grant additional bonuses, or have special conditions that apply. The issue with Crimson isn't the numbers, it's the mechanics; Leeching Plate for instance actually provides more damage and healing than Crimson, but no one uses it because it's stationary and people can walk out of it. Having a field around you that you can direct to deal damage or heal from more targets is quite useful, as well as having the damage be applied in a burst rather than simply over a duration, allowing players on low health to play defensively until Crimson procs and they can get a burst of health, or enable them to time their attacks to burst someone down at the same time as Crimson activates. I would suggest that instead, the Crimson set should apply the damage/healing over a duration, acting as a passive source of damage and healing rather than burst. This would mean much less survivability for those who are low on health and desperately need a burst of healing to get them back on their feet, as well as being much less effective at helping to burst another player down, needing only a simple heal over time to counteract it.

Firstmep

Sangwyne wrote: »

Like it or not, Crimson falls in line with ZOS' set value standards, which usually tend towards 2000 DPS (Night Terror, Poisonous Serpent, Unleashed Terror, Venomous Smite), 1000 DPS+1000 healing/s (Leeching Plate, Bahraha's Curse, Vicecanon of Venom), or 2000 healing/s (Winter's Respite, Draugr's Rest, Robes of the Hist). Outliers usually either have limitations, grant additional bonuses, or have special conditions that apply. The issue with Crimson isn't the numbers, it's the mechanics; Leeching Plate for instance actually provides more damage and healing than Crimson, but no one uses it because it's stationary and people can walk out of it. Having a field around you that you can direct to deal damage or heal from more targets is quite useful, as well as having the damage be applied in a burst rather than simply over a duration, allowing players on low health to play defensively until Crimson procs and they can get a burst of health, or enable them to time their attacks to burst someone down at the same time as Crimson activates. I would suggest that instead, the Crimson set should apply the damage/healing over a duration, acting as a passive source of damage and healing rather than burst. This would mean much less survivability for those who are low on health and desperately need a burst of healing to get them back on their feet, as well as being much less effective at helping to burst another player down, needing only a simple heal over time to counteract it.

This is an issue for quite a few sets, sadly.

This is what happens when you try to balance the game purely on numbers.

Sahidom

Sangwyne wrote: »

Like it or not, Crimson falls in line with ZOS' set value standards, which usually tend towards 2000 DPS (Night Terror, Poisonous Serpent, Unleashed Terror, Venomous Smite), 1000 DPS+1000 healing/s (Leeching Plate, Bahraha's Curse, Vicecanon of Venom), or 2000 healing/s (Winter's Respite, Draugr's Rest, Robes of the Hist). Outliers usually either have limitations, grant additional bonuses, or have special conditions that apply. The issue with Crimson isn't the numbers, it's the mechanics; Leeching Plate for instance actually provides more damage and healing than Crimson, but no one uses it because it's stationary and people can walk out of it. Having a field around you that you can direct to deal damage or heal from more targets is quite useful, as well as having the damage be applied in a burst rather than simply over a duration, allowing players on low health to play defensively until Crimson procs and they can get a burst of health, or enable them to time their attacks to burst someone down at the same time as Crimson activates. I would suggest that instead, the Crimson set should apply the damage/healing over a duration, acting as a passive source of damage and healing rather than burst. This would mean much less survivability for those who are low on health and desperately need a burst of healing to get them back on their feet, as well as being much less effective at helping to burst another player down, needing only a simple heal over time to counteract it.

Your first statement misses the point. As you said, ZOS value standards, contradicts themselves.

Continuing to use Crimson, as an example. THE set's mechanic is identical to the Templars Sun Shield skill except replace the heal with the damage shield. Damage shields are very similar to heals, in context that shields negate damage; however, the sequencing is different whether it's a pre or post condition on when the damage is negated. When you stack Health to both improve their survivability and damage done, Crimson is categorically doing exactly what the developers comment stated the reason why Sun Shield had to be adjusted.

This set is just one of many examples where ZOS value standard goes against the rationale that led to class kit skill changes. Why? Could the players expect a rewind for their class skills too?

[Edited] I didn't respond to the corrective step suggestion because it's mute and side rails the original discussion, why are the class skills not being reverting to old mechanics when their own item set release rationale goes against the previous reasons why the class or weapon skill was changed, which share similar skill effects?

Sahidom

Also. How does this past interview hold up to today's combat system with proc sets removing several tactical and strategic elements of the ESO combat vision in 2012, compares to today?

https://youtu.be/27MjH8hi1zQ

Sangwyne

Sahidom wrote: »

Your first statement misses the point. As you said, ZOS value standards, contradicts themselves.

Continuing to use Crimson, as an example. THE set's mechanic is identical to the Templars Sun Shield skill except replace the heal with the damage shield. Damage shields are very similar to heals, in context that shields negate damage; however, the sequencing is different whether it's a pre or post condition on when the damage is negated. When you stack Health to both improve their survivability and damage done, Crimson is categorically doing exactly what the developers comment stated the reason why Sun Shield had to be adjusted.

This set is just one of many examples where ZOS value standard goes against the rationale that led to class kit skill changes. Why? Could the players expect a rewind for their class skills too?

[Edited] I didn't respond to the corrective step suggestion because it's mute and side rails the original discussion, why are the class skills not being reverting to old mechanics when their own item set release rationale goes against the previous reasons why the class or weapon skill was changed, which share similar skill effects?

My point was, ZOS seems to think it's in line, since they haven't changed it. Any tweaks to its numbers would not alleviate the issue, they would need to change the mechanics, and that's unlikely to happen, although I personally feel it would be far more balanced if it were applied as a DOT over 8s instead of a burst. Damage shields are not comparable to heals, you can't stack heals when you're already on full health, there aren't any debuffs that reduce your shields alone (other than Balance, technically, but it's self-applied), and as such they are more useful. Sun shield is still plenty strong, it's a 30% max health shield that also deals damage, but I agree that it's no substitute for a proper % heal on templar tanks. Also, you seem to be missing the point they were making in that video, which was that by stacking Health, not only were you increasing the size of the shield from Blazing, but also the amount of damage it deals; the developers have repeatedly stated they do not want Health to scale damage, and have removed pretty much all sources of damage scaling off of Health (Although I believe Gripping Shards still does. Needs to be addressed). The issue was that investing in defensive stats was scaling your damage as well. Crimson does not scale its damage/healing when you stack health, neither do Leeching Plate or Bahraha's Curse or Vicecanon of Venom or any of these sets that damage and heal you for a fixed amount.

Sahidom

I found the interview had a positive direction where you're engaged in the content, whether it's PVE or PVP; and clearly their vision then was about creating builds by blending skills together. Where part of the immersion they're trying to capture was about skill utilization from a tactical and strategic perspective to engage in the content gameplay. The rebalancing of skills from the early years could be conceived, as their attempt to balance the power scaling of the skills so players have this type of tactical and strategic immersion, whether it's against Player vs. Monster or Player vs. Player gameplay. Fast forward to 2021. The game went heavily away from skill utilization, in the same context of the 2012-2014 gameplay goal and integrated proc sets, not just damage but healing, buffs, de-buffs, etc. that often overperform skills with similar effects; in the current case scenario, proc sets do not require resources and the velocity of damage or healing from sets drives the game where item sets supersede skill utilization, in the same context portrayed and discussed in the video.

This is where my question stands, should the current proc/non-proc (18-19 sets out of 100s) shifted the immersion of the tactical and strategic skill utilization. Over 2018-2021 releases have approach "see the world, react to the world" gameplay into a completely different beast. More apparent in PVP gameplay; as the interview themselves discouraged the need to see how fast you can perform a rotation versus Player vs. Monster content.

Damage shields are front-ended "heals," while both negate damage. You can negate incoming damage through Heal-Over-Time effects, which perform the same function as damage shields: it comes down to when the damage is negated. Since damage shields are temporary and ablative Hit Points, as healing restores Hit Points after the Hit Point loss. But we can agree to disagree on this.

Sun Shield has a strong damage shield but the damage is pale compared to Crimson. Both skill and set use the same system mechanic with a slight variant. Converting the outgoing damage into a Damage Over Time addresses the burst potential but its rather mute when the Damage Over Time cycles its damage within 6 seconds. Same velocity as Coldharbour's Favor set which cripples players when their snared, immobilized or stunned: and these CC effects are everywhere in PVP content play. I simply see ZOS operating on the double-negative where weapon and class skills are heavily nerfed, gutted or made useless to promote this "see the world, react to the world" immersion from a world of proc/item set tactical and strategic choices; As the set Crimson defies the exact reason why Sun Shield was nerfed down. Sun Shield in its current state is NOT a strong skill, it lacks on damage. Why use a skill with lackluster damage when Crimson, for example, exceeds it by folds.

When will weapon and class skill utilization resurface as the engagement focus of gameplay? The direction of the game has moved into a bizarre realm where previous reasoning for changing skills quickly becomes hypocritical, when you look at all these proc sets coming out each Update. It wouldn't surprise me transitioning players from Single-Player Skyrim will be faced with game shock, as their previous skill utilization to develop builds is shattered by which sets generate the best damage and how fast can I perform a rotation. I feel the class skills should get some regression from all the past changes to glorify them.

StarOfElyon

Sahidom wrote: »

Also. How does this past interview hold up to today's combat system with proc sets removing several tactical and strategic elements of the ESO combat vision in 2012, compares to today?

https://youtu.be/27MjH8hi1zQ

There ain't nothing tactical or strategic about Chokethorn saving somebody after they get bursted for being sloppy.

Edit: I think I misread your post. lol. Maybe we're in agreement that procs existing remove those elements of the game.

CP5

You don't deal more damage with crimson by stacking health whereas sun shields damage was directly related to your maximum health total, that's the difference.

Sahidom

CP5 wrote: »

You don't deal more damage with crimson by stacking health whereas sun shields damage was directly related to your maximum health total, that's the difference.

Crimson directly improves survivability by stacking health to buffer the timer between procs. As your also doing more then standing still; unless your demonstrating its synergy power with WW.

Sun Shield does benefit by stacking health to improve the damage shield which generates the reflected damage on expiration of the skill duration; however, Sun Shield was gutted for the reasons stated by the developers. Crimson generates higher burst and healing power than Sun Shield. There is little difference when you break it down when they both share the same mechanic function.

This one case point questions why should class skills continue to be gutted out when proc sets just exceed their performance. The discussion isn't about Crimson alone. Its about where ESO is heading when their introducing sets that directly contradict why weapon and class skills were changed. Thats all.

Why should we have subpar class and weapon skills to sets? Are sets the new method approach to class/build identity? Was sets the sole factor behind the pattern play concept? Have they completely said to Hell with it, about their original mission statement? I don't think it's unreasonable to ask these questions.

CP5

ZOS's balance choices aside, the simple argument is that the set doesn't scale off of stats at all, hence why it is different than sun shield, and why the popular option to have proc sets scale off of stats exist.

Sangwyne

Sahidom wrote: »

Crimson generates higher burst and healing power than Sun Shield. There is little difference when you break it down when they both share the same mechanic function.

This one case point questions why should class skills continue to be gutted out when proc sets just exceed their performance. The discussion isn't about Crimson alone. Its about where ESO is heading when their introducing sets that directly contradict why weapon and class skills were changed. Thats all.

Have they completely said to Hell with it, about their original mission statement?

Look, I'm all for calling out ZOS where necessary, but this doesn't contradict what they stated in the video at all, I just watched it. The developers mentioned that they don't want investments in survivability to also scale damage. Crimson doesn't work the same; increasing your health, resistances or whatever will not increase the amount of damage or healing it provides, as it is a fixed amount. Crimson deals less damage than other comparable sets because it has the lifesteal aspect, and heals for less than comparable sets because it deals some damage. There is a tradeoff, you are not getting 2k damage/s or 2k healing/s, you are getting half of each, just like Leeching Plate, Bahraha's Curse, and VIcecanon of Venom. Crimson's application mechanic is what needs to change, as the burst is very strong in PvP. I would like to see your suggestions on how you would better balance Crimson without just nerfing the numbers.

Sahidom wrote: »

Update 3.0.5
Blazing Shield: Reduced the amount of damage done by this morph to 33/36/39/42% of the damage absorbed by the shield, down from 50/51/52/53%.
Developer Comments: Blazing Shield builds have proven to be extremely effective due to being able to stack Health to improve both their survivability and damage done. We've reduced the effectiveness of this ability so that there is more of an opportunity cost to having so much Health.

Crimson's damage does not scale off Health and the developers have kept true to their word in eliminating most sources of damage scaling off of Health; I believe Gripping Shards and possibly Arctic Blast are the only skills remaining, although I could easily be wrong.

taugrim

Sangwyne wrote: »

The issue with Crimson isn't the numbers, it's the mechanics; Leeching Plate for instance actually provides more damage and healing than Crimson, but no one uses it because it's stationary and people can walk out of it. Having a field around you that you can direct to deal damage or heal from more targets is quite useful, as well as having the damage be applied in a burst rather than simply over a duration.

Nice writeup.

I think the issue is that it's a PBAOE with large radius (8m!!!) and given that it hits multiple targets you can both deal a lot of burst damage to a group and heal up for a large amount.

AOEs are extremely hard to balance.

Sangwyne wrote: »

Like it or not, Crimson falls in line with ZOS' set value standards, which usually tend towards 2000 DPS (Night Terror, Poisonous Serpent, Unleashed Terror, Venomous Smite), 1000 DPS+1000 healing/s (Leeching Plate, Bahraha's Curse, Vicecanon of Venom), or 2000 healing/s (Winter's Respite, Draugr's Rest, Robes of the Hist).

Crimson is 1k DPS + 1k healing but that's per target with the aforementioned large-radius PBAOE.

IMO Crimson should either affect 1 target (which might make people too mad) or the radius should be reduced to 4-5m, so it's still effective in PVE if you pull targets / LoS pull, but not so imbalanced in PVP.

Anyron

This is what Zos always do. they make old sets to be "standartized" and then they came with something new, obviously overpowered. like crimson or harbinger

noone with brain inside head can think harbinger is good idea. stack as much health as possible and deal damage depending on health . even weirder it is, they nerfed blazing shield for this exact mechanic.

just compare these two sets which should be ballanced

Knight Slayer
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(5 items) Your fully-charged Heavy Attacks deal an additional 8% of an enemy's Maximum Health as Oblivion Damage. This can deal a maximum of 8000 Oblivion Damage

Thews of the Harbinger
(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(4 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(5 items) When you block an attack, you deal damage to your attacker equal to 7% of your Maximum Health.

how are these sets even close to be ballanced? one is with proc mechanic on fully-charged heavy attack and another is on block with NO COOLDOWN on any ammount of hits. put a dot on that target and you are certainly dead. even more stronger it is on emperor which makes it impossible to fight against

tanking sets should never do any damage.

Sahidom

Anyron wrote: »

This is what Zos always do. they make old sets to be "standartized" and then they came with something new, obviously overpowered. like crimson or harbinger

noone with brain inside head can think harbinger is good idea. stack as much health as possible and deal damage depending on health . even weirder it is, they nerfed blazing shield for this exact mechanic.

just compare these two sets which should be ballanced

Knight Slayer
...

Thews of the Harbinger
...

how are these sets even close to be ballanced?one is with proc mechanic on fully-charged heavy attack and another is on block with NO COOLDOWN on any ammount of hits. put a dot on that target and you are certainly dead. even more stronger it is on emperor which makes it impossible to fight against.

tanking sets should never do any damage.

Players know they're introducing these proc sets to ruin class identity. How could class pattern and power play of classes even possible when these proc sets dominate over class and weapon skills? They don't. I'll use another example, other than Sun Shield.

Teleport Strike
Update 3.3.5 also decreased the damage dealt by the ability and its morphs. The Developers had the comment Gap Closers have no cooldown and can hit for extreme amounts of damage. Now, 2021, Update 29 proc sets have no conditions and can hit for extreme amounts of damage. Still, Update 5.1.5 decreased Teleport Strike morph Lotus Fan ticking damage down by 22% to standardize all ticking damage abilities.

Class and weapon skills have been beaten by the ZOS nerf bat. People could read through their patch notes and Developers comments to learn why they thought those changes were best. Then to, compare their reasoning and see how those reasons were dismissed, in favor of selling proc sets. That's the problem. Give us our skills back, and stop breaking our class kits over releasing more broken sets.

Sangwyne

Anyron wrote: »

tanking sets should never do any damage.

Yeah, no. These aren't "tanking" sets, tanks have nothing to do with this, these are just straight up PvP proc damage sets. Please stop blaming actual tanks for the messed-up state of PvP, we've been nerfed enough.

Anyron wrote: »

noone with brain inside head can think harbinger is good idea. stack as much health as possible and deal damage depending on health . even weirder it is, they nerfed blazing shield for this exact mechanic.

Solid argument. Unlike Crimson, Thews actually DOES scale your damage with the amount of health you have, which is exactly what ZOS said they didn't want to do. On top of that, it's especially busted on Vampires and Necros with the added health from their ultimates, but far weaker on everyone else. It needs a rework or something to deal a flat amount of damage back on block, maybe with a small cooldown to prevent Templars from absolutely demolishing themselves with Jabs, or so that it isn't just an anti-Flurry/Rapid Fire set.

Sahidom wrote: »

]
Players know they're introducing these proc sets to ruin class identity. How could class pattern and power play of classes even possible when these proc sets dominate over class and weapon skills? They don't.

This is nonsensical, there's no point in comparing sets to skills, it's not like you're suddenly going to stop using skills in PvP just because proc sets exist. Most proc sets are pretty boring, just damage or healing, sometimes too much, but you still have to actually use skills. Nightblades have their iconic Cloak, Sorcerers their pets and Streak, Necromancers their summons, etc. Class identity isn't being "ruined", calm down. PvP players always act like the sky is falling and ZOS has some hidden agenda to ruin their own game.

Sahidom wrote: »

Teleport Strike
Update 3.3.5 also decreased the damage dealt by the ability and its morphs. The Developers had the comment Gap Closers have no cooldown and can hit for extreme amounts of damage. Now, 2021, Update 29 proc sets have no conditions and can hit for extreme amounts of damage.

Bruh, proc sets aren't Gap Closers, they aren't even skills. Most proc sets do have cooldowns, and you can have 12 skills but only 2 five piece sets and a monster helm. A skill that teleports you and a proc set that does damage are not the same. Sun Shield and Crimson are not the same. You're comparing apples and oranges here.

Sahidom

Sangwyne wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

tanking sets should never do any damage.

Yeah, no. These aren't "tanking" sets, tanks have nothing to do with this, these are just straight up PvP proc damage sets. Please stop blaming actual tanks for the messed-up state of PvP, we've been nerfed enough.

Anyron wrote: »

noone with brain inside head can think harbinger is good idea. stack as much health as possible and deal damage depending on health . even weirder it is, they nerfed blazing shield for this exact mechanic.

Solid argument. Unlike Crimson, Thews actually DOES scale your damage with the amount of health you have, which is exactly what ZOS said they didn't want to do. On top of that, it's especially busted on Vampires and Necros with the added health from their ultimates, but far weaker on everyone else. It needs a rework or something to deal a flat amount of damage back on block, maybe with a small cooldown to prevent Templars from absolutely demolishing themselves with Jabs, or so that it isn't just an anti-Flurry/Rapid Fire set.

Sahidom wrote: »

]
Players know they're introducing these proc sets to ruin class identity. How could class pattern and power play of classes even possible when these proc sets dominate over class and weapon skills? They don't.

This is nonsensical, there's no point in comparing sets to skills, it's not like you're suddenly going to stop using skills in PvP just because proc sets exist. Most proc sets are pretty boring, just damage or healing, sometimes too much, but you still have to actually use skills. Nightblades have their iconic Cloak, Sorcerers their pets and Streak, Necromancers their summons, etc. Class identity isn't being "ruined", calm down. PvP players always act like the sky is falling and ZOS has some hidden agenda to ruin their own game.

Sahidom wrote: »

Teleport Strike
Update 3.3.5 also decreased the damage dealt by the ability and its morphs. The Developers had the comment Gap Closers have no cooldown and can hit for extreme amounts of damage. Now, 2021, Update 29 proc sets have no conditions and can hit for extreme amounts of damage.

Bruh, proc sets aren't Gap Closers, they aren't even skills. Most proc sets do have cooldowns, and you can have 12 skills but only 2 five piece sets and a monster helm. A skill that teleports you and a proc set that does damage are not the same. Sun Shield and Crimson are not the same. You're comparing apples and oranges here.

You are right in the literal word: proc sets aren't Gap Closers, they aren't even skills. However, you glazed over the key reason for ZOS decreasing the skill's performance,...no cooldown and can hit for extreme damage. Now apply the same statement to damage or healing proc sets, no conditions and can hit for extreme damage. What many people don't seem to grasp here, no condition is the same as no cooldown. Let me explain it another way, I'll use a Macro key example. When you press X then the Macro executes the assigned X key function PLUS executes additional commands.

Do you get it? The Macro is the proc set and the X key is the condition. This conceptual analogy can be applied to 'When Damaged" conditions on proc sets. When conditions have no chance of failure then the imposed conditions are not very conditional. When a player does executes Critical Charge or Teleport Strike (press X key) than the player also executes ALL the procs associated to the single skill/key function. This is the case with Unleashed proc set, no effort to execute the other commands of the Macro with a simple GCD skill/key function. Carry the concept through to Crimson, and other similar sets, when being damaged procs the set without conditions (being damage isn't a genuine condition when you're in combat). So the statement then,...no cooldown and can hit for extreme damage, is ignored while weapon and class skills are nerfed but proc sets get the free pass.

Now, ZOS has the luxury to release proc sets with the long reaching results that ruin class identity, as that was once an important discussion last year. I am advocating for our weapon and class kits be more superior then damage/healing proc sets, and regress several old class kit mechanics that distinguished the classes on launch. Right now, ZOS made a pretty speech about bringing back class identity without looking back at all the damaging changes they've made. They would not have been in this scenario to fix classes and proc sets would simply be proc sets without devaluing weapon and class skills. I would find it narcissistic of them to push content that leads the downturn of their class system that isn't behind a pay wall.

Sangwyne

Sahidom wrote: »

You are right in the literal word: proc sets aren't Gap Closers, they aren't even skills. However, you glazed over the key reason for ZOS decreasing the skill's performance,...no cooldown and can hit for extreme damage. Now apply the same statement to damage or healing proc sets, no conditions and can hit for extreme damage. What many people don't seem to grasp here, no condition is the same as no cooldown.

...No. Bruh, a cooldown is literally a condition. Many proc sets have a condition, Crimson has a cooldown and a delay on the damage, Teleport Strike did not. Stop cherrypicking, there are delayed damage skills that can be used in tandem with other skills for burst damage as well. [snip] ZOS nerfed Sun shield because you could stack health, a defensive stat, to gain damage, Crimson doesn't do that. A better example would be Thews, where stacking health actually DOES contribute to your damage. Comparing random sets to overtuned skills makes no sense and devalues your arguments.

Sahidom wrote: »

Let me explain it another way, I'll use a Macro key example. When you press X then the Macro executes the assigned X key function PLUS executes additional commands.

Do you get it? The Macro is the proc set and the X key is the condition. This conceptual analogy can be applied to 'When Damaged" conditions on proc sets. When conditions have no chance of failure then the imposed conditions are not very conditional. When a player does executes Critical Charge or Teleport Strike (press X key) than the player also executes ALL the procs associated to the single skill/key function. This is the case with Unleashed proc set, no effort to execute the other commands of the Macro with a simple GCD skill/key function. Carry the concept through to Crimson, and other similar sets, when being damaged procs the set without conditions (being damage isn't a genuine condition when you're in combat). So the statement then,...no cooldown and can hit for extreme damage, is ignored while weapon and class skills are nerfed but proc sets get the free pass.

That's not how Macros work... Crimson doesn't even activate when you press a key, you have no control over when it procs, it's on the part of your enemy to activate it. Being damaged, with a cooldown and a delay on the damage, are literally conditions, and I wouldn't call Crimson's 8k, halved to 4k in PvP, "extreme damage". [snip] ZOS didn't nerf Teleport Strike and Sun Shield because of proc sets, they nerfed them because the skills were too strong.

Sahidom wrote: »

Now, ZOS has the luxury to release proc sets with the long reaching results that ruin class identity, as that was once an important discussion last year. I am advocating for our weapon and class kits be more superior then damage/healing proc sets, and regress several old class kit mechanics that distinguished the classes on launch. Right now, ZOS made a pretty speech about bringing back class identity without looking back at all the damaging changes they've made. They would not have been in this scenario to fix classes and proc sets would simply be proc sets without devaluing weapon and class skills. I would find it narcissistic of them to push content that leads the downturn of their class system that isn't behind a pay wall.

[snip] I'm fairly sure ZOS doesn't have a hidden agenda to ruin their own game.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Sahidom

Sangwyne wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

You are right in the literal word: proc sets aren't Gap Closers, they aren't even skills. However, you glazed over the key reason for ZOS decreasing the skill's performance,...no cooldown and can hit for extreme damage. Now apply the same statement to damage or healing proc sets, no conditions and can hit for extreme damage. What many people don't seem to grasp here, no condition is the same as no cooldown.

...No. Bruh, a cooldown is literally a condition. Many proc sets have a condition, Crimson has a cooldown and a delay on the damage, Teleport Strike did not. Stop cherry-picking, there are delayed damage skills that can be used in tandem with other skills for burst damage as well. Your examples are bad, ZOS nerfed Sun shield because you could stack health, a defensive stat, to gain damage, Crimson doesn't do that. A better example would be Thews, where stacking health actually DOES contribute to your damage. Comparing random sets to over tuned skills makes no sense and devalues your arguments.

Alright. I get why you’re saying the examples are bad; however, it’s the reasons behind the changes that drawn many parallels to why some, not all proc sets, ignored their own reasoning when releasing some of the proc sets, not all. A broad perspective from the pick a few weapon skills, some class kit skills that go along with the build idea moved forward to the alternative to pick some proc sets then only the few 'activation' skills to support the character set build concept. I have no problem with this model except when weapon and class kit skills are negatively altered on their damage, performance or class kit identity purpose; BUT doing so moved the game into a strange world where class selection boils down to pairing passives to proc sets. The same could be said about weapon skills when they went through their standardization process. Perhaps Update 30 may be bring more standardization modeling for proc sets;

I agree where stacking health does empower Thews set to deal more damage; I also compare how stacking high health with resistances caps will also accomplish the same ends that empowers any damaging proc set to active more often, and by association dealing more damage due to the increased survivability resistance cap offers. I conceded, that’s simply good proc set synergy with maximum health.

However, the argument directs to the unintended nature of the synergy when you don’t have to invest in weapon or class kit skills other than any skill slot as the "proc set activation" skill to activate the said proc sets. This invalidates many conditioning causes to activate the proc set. From one perspective of the argument, the synergy between weapon and class skill no longer define a class build, more so than classes becoming a vehicle choice to execute proc sets. You could examine all the proc set meta builds, and you’ll find the similar pattern of class choices; This doesn’t turn proc sets into a cancerous villain but it does disclose how class kits are considered under this meta for years now and the current no-proc Cyro discloses how imbalanced class kits are, as a result of the history of failures to level classes over the years; AND how they’ve implemented the decision to gap-fill those imbalances with proc sets: it’s like painting a wall with an oil mark on it – the oil mark will bleed through and the preexisting problem never gets addressed properly.

Sangwyne wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

Let me explain it another way, I'll use a Macro key example. When you press X then the Macro executes the assigned X key function PLUS executes additional commands.

Do you get it? The Macro is the proc set and the X key is the condition. This conceptual analogy can be applied to 'When Damaged" conditions on proc sets. When conditions have no chance of failure then the imposed conditions are not very conditional. When a player does executes Critical Charge or Teleport Strike (press X key) than the player also executes ALL the procs associated to the single skill/key function. This is the case with Unleashed proc set, no effort to execute the other commands of the Macro with a simple GCD skill/key function. Carry the concept through to Crimson, and other similar sets, when being damaged procs the set without conditions (being damage isn't a genuine condition when you're in combat). So the statement then,...no cooldown and can hit for extreme damage, is ignored while weapon and class skills are nerfed but proc sets get the free pass.

That's not how Macros work... Crimson doesn't even activate when you press a key, you have no control over when it procs, it's on the part of your enemy to activate it. Being damaged, with a cooldown and a delay on the damage, are literally conditions, and I wouldn't call Crimson's 8k, halved to 4k in PvP, "extreme damage". This entire thing reads like an anti-proc manifesto, where you blame proc sets for ruining class identity, nerfing your favorite playstyles and causing cancer in children. ZOS didn't nerf Teleport Strike and Sun Shield because of proc sets, they nerfed them because the skills were too strong.

That is exactly how Macros work. You can record or assign other commands spaced by time delays that will execute those programmed commands under one key. Replace those programmed commands with proc set activations, and you get multiple proc set executions under one key command. The time delay of proc sets isn’t a condition, it’s the delay that scales the DPS of the set. Very similar to ticking damage that occurs every so—so seconds. The timespan on the ticking damage also decides the velocity of the damage output on the target e.g. 10 seconds versus 6 seconds.

It does read like an anti-proc set manifest but and to an extent proc sets have harmed class identities. That’s the reason for being vocal about the subject. In PVP, the “4k” hit lands as hard as weapon and class kit skills without fail upon getting damaged, and the cooldown only throttles the velocity of the outgoing damage per target within the AOE effect. And being damaged isn’t really a gap-stop to be honestly considered a conditional trigger in PVE/PVP gameplay. When you reexamine the floating BiS and meta builds, the actual classes role are measured by the passives and how effective each one are better suited to activate those proc set synergies. From this perspective, YES, the situation harms class identity among other reasons where ZOS dismantled them.

Also. This isn’t about how ZOS ruined my game. I’m adaptive enough to move where the wind blows; however, I also foresee from a software engineering perspective on risks centered around the quality metrics of the software that foreshadow them leading the game down series of decisions that will progressively dismantle actual unique class identities. They’ll may have to regress many of their past decisions to restore the core classes. They don’t have to do this, it’s their choice. I could write again years later and use their historical records of changes for a thesis paper on the subject. This level of thought process doesn't matter to the average player, I would like the classes regain some of their identity glory over proc set synergy game play. That will bring forward a more quality product and be more durable than the current direction ZOS has communicated.

Sahidom

I'm glad that other people are posting their disapproval and concerns about the one key activating extreme proc damage model ZOS is moving towards; willingly and knowingly, how their model is turning combat into macro-based combat system model with sets: may the better macro user win!

Marcus_Thracius

Each patch its the same , buff nerf buff nerf procs , and it goes live , ppl find another way the make troll build with proc sets.
Only way is to keep proc sets OUT of pvp
Right now pvp is the best it has been in ages , keep garbadge procs out of cyro!!!
Being carried by sets is not fun , actually learning the game and relaying on your skills in much better
#noprocpvp

Sahidom

Marcus_Thracius wrote: »

Each patch its the same , buff nerf buff nerf procs , and it goes live , ppl find another way the make troll build with proc sets.
Only way is to keep proc sets OUT of pvp
Right now pvp is the best it has been in ages , keep garbadge procs out of cyro!!!
Being carried by sets is not fun , actually learning the game and relaying on your skills in much better
#noprocpvp

I dont disagree. When you really decompose systems and mechanics down, they went to lengths to harmonize the combat system to revitalize combat variables via the 2.0 champion system - limiting the slottable bonuses; but now their moving into a macro-oriented combat style with proc sets. This comes with high risks, and potentially breaking many nuances of their past harmonized changes: overperforming or underperforming.

This will be the byproduct when you neglect the problem sources e.g. class kit disparities: not gameplay skill but all these actionable skills in the game (class, weapon, guild, world, etc.) This is why everyone should be concerned about the direction their moving combat towards, PVE and PVP; where attribute stacking is weaker than proc-based builds.

Jazraena

This is why everyone should be concerned about the direction their moving combat towards, PVE and PVP; where attribute stacking is weaker than proc-based builds.

Attribute stacking weaker, in PvE? The vast majority of Proc Sets were already the weaker option before scaling, and with scaling it won't get better. The PvE Meta is very much intact, and all these changes do is make certain that fun off-meta builds are getting even worse.

Anyron

Marcus_Thracius wrote: »

Each patch its the same , buff nerf buff nerf procs , and it goes live , ppl find another way the make troll build with proc sets.
Only way is to keep proc sets OUT of pvp
Right now pvp is the best it has been in ages , keep garbadge procs out of cyro!!!
Being carried by sets is not fun , actually learning the game and relaying on your skills in much better
#noprocpvp

No proc PvP was fun for maybe 3 months but then became boring.. They should atleast give some sets back, allowing only 10 sets work is just really cheap

Sahidom

I feel the no-proc PVP test cycle was to an extent challenging to create working builds with a limited amount of sets. I could not say what ZOS learned from the test cycle; however, a couple positive results happened: a) players did enjoy the combat system where skills dominated more than proc damage or healing - the forums here are evidence to support the statement. b) fighting against ball groups had better counter-play than within a proc set environment. And c) disclosed the unresolved imbalances between class kits, such as, skills that benefited from the CP 1.0 passives lost the synergy with CP 2.0 and the loss changed the performance of those skills. As well as, how offense resource pools and spell/weapon damage impact the skill's effectiveness. Update 30 focuses on adjusting proc sets; and I have the feel from reading the PTS notes their going to address the class ended imbalances anytime soon.

No proc PvP was fun for maybe 3 months but then became boring.. They should at least give some sets back, allowing only 10 sets work is just really cheap

The number of sets disabled were alarming - but also a significant disclosure on their end. This will change soon, as they roll out their macro-based combat system. Reading the PTS notes, they're still trying to preserve the broken set mechanics and they've created a list of unaffected sets that do not scale to their new proc set damage/heal scaling. I anticipate these sets will be discussion later on how their exploited for the omission from the new proc scaling standardization.