Serious question about DPS balancing

Gulnagel

It's to my understanding ZoS wants to lower the amount of damage we can do. And I agree that hitting numbers well above 100k is a bit extreme. However, now ZoS really got an eye for lowering DPS, and it most likely will not end here.

I read some where that the goal is to not let 3 dps and 1 tank rush through dungeons lke a forest fire. So they probably will nerf dps more and more.

And here is the thing if we somehow end up actually having to play mechanics and lets say 65k is the new 100k. And that is with La-weaving, then I rather see them remove LA-weave, tweak global cooldowns a bit and we will end up on those numbers anyway.

Because if I have to play drums on my controller to reach a measly 65k, I rather not play drums on my controller and reach 65k. Because it's simply not worth the effort anymore.

And I know what a lot of you think "LA weawing is what makes this games combat so fun and skill full" and I agree it is fun now in CP 1.0. However if they keep on loweruming our damage output it will not be so fun.

Then I rather see ESO become like other mmos in combat. Because it will not feel rewaeding to LA-weave after a certain point, you will just feel that you rather hit the numbers without the "i play drums on my controller/keyboard"

honey_badger82

I dont like LA weaving as it is. I find no skill behind it, it's not fun period. Anything you have to practice for hours on end and time near perfectly is not fun, its mindless. I so much prefer the combat of Dark Souls but I have burned those games out playing through them several times over. Besides the considerably lengthier content of ESO I really stay around for the outfit system and that's pretty much it. I like being able to have my characters running around looking the way I want and still being effective unlike attempting fashion souls at NG++

Sangwyne

Well, if their goal was to prevent 1 tank 3DD or 4DD from working as effectively, they've succeeded; top end DPS for actual damage dealers was lowered, while tanks and healers (who usually grab magicka recovery) saw increases to their overall damage output with the extra 1k weapon/spell damage and max stats. I'm just worried that the changes came at the expense of what each role was supposed to actually be GOOD at; tanks are less tanky due to less %mitigation, healers heal for less, and damage dealers do less now as well. The increase to max health is nice, yeah, but with resistances and durability going down, it just means a pool of health that's harder to actually heal back; maybe that's what ZOS was going for with the healing changes. I've been running Vet Fang Lair for the Thurvokun monster set and Fang Lair motifs, and after this patch it's become a lot more difficult to keep party members alive without a healer; I had to use Brands of the Imperium with Sanguine Altar, Igneous Shield and Magma Shell pretty much off cooldown, and the two DPS were still dying a lot, even with 20-25k HP each.

Ekzorka

Why am I feeling that every "challenge" thing (like HM, speedrun or 3in1) that was designed for dungeons and trials are ignore DPS nerfs and still focused on top-DDs which ZoS wants to nerf?
Wouldn't it be easier to set a cap for DPS? Because with every step to nerf top-DD there's also nerfing everyone without those crazy numbers.

Bodycounter

Ekzorka wrote: »

Why am I feeling that every "challenge" thing (like HM, speedrun or 3in1) that was designed for dungeons and trials are ignore DPS nerfs and still focused on top-DDs which ZoS wants to nerf?
Wouldn't it be easier to set a cap for DPS? Because with every step to nerf top-DD there's also nerfing everyone without those crazy numbers.

Does it really matter if bad players drop from 22k DPS to 20k DPS? No. Does it matter when good players drop from 110k DPS to 90k DPS? Yes. Since ZoS buffed many base stats bad players may actually end up with higher DPS than before whereas good players have been tuned down with this patch. Exactly what ZoS wanted.

There will still be a huge gap between good and bad players so the whole point of OP is not based on logic but just on emotions, so meh. And healers becoming relevant again is a good thing in my opinion. It has become pretty bad with 3 DPS setups and several mechanics in dungeons that can either be completely skipped by high enough DPS or are punishing you directly if you are playing with a healer in your goup.

honey_badger82

Bodycounter wrote: »

Ekzorka wrote: »

Why am I feeling that every "challenge" thing (like HM, speedrun or 3in1) that was designed for dungeons and trials are ignore DPS nerfs and still focused on top-DDs which ZoS wants to nerf?
Wouldn't it be easier to set a cap for DPS? Because with every step to nerf top-DD there's also nerfing everyone without those crazy numbers.

Does it really matter if bad players drop from 22k DPS to 20k DPS? No. Does it matter when good players drop from 110k DPS to 90k DPS? Yes. Since ZoS buffed many base stats bad players may actually end up with higher DPS than before whereas good players have been tuned down with this patch. Exactly what ZoS wanted.

There will still be a huge gap between good and bad players so the whole point of OP is not based on logic but just on emotions, so meh. And healers becoming relevant again is a good thing in my opinion. It has become pretty bad with 3 DPS setups and several mechanics in dungeons that can either be completely skipped by high enough DPS or are punishing you directly if you are playing with a healer in your goup.

Problem is ZoS has designed their game to favor DPS. I have decent dps toons and good tanks but I prefer to be on my healer for vet DLC dungeons of late. What I ended up finding out was that we were able to beat bosses that we had wiped on over and over once I pitched in for DPS and only healed when I had to. It went from 75% healing and heavy attacking to keep my magicka maxed and 25% DPS to 75% DPS and 25% healing. Without my DPS adds were not dying as fast in turn requiring more healing from me. I rarely pug vet DLC so I know the 2 DPS with me each time are good, 70k+. This is why 3 DPS 1 tank who can all self heal well are able to ignore mechanics, the game was already designed for it, super high DPS just makes it much easier.
These changes are lowering high end and really are raising the floor however that's on the damage aspect alone. On the survivability we have all been lowered significantly. The extra hp does not offset this, especially when it can be burned through with additional damage we are taking in less than 2 seconds. IMO the dps changes are fine although a hard pill to swallow but by doing this and not adjusting how hard enemies hit in vet content while at the same time hitting every players survivability has thrown the balance in a bad way.
With CP 1.0 all my characters, tank, DPS and healers had the same resistance setup. 22% direct damage, 12% DOT (getting a 8% boost to this with CP 2.0), 11% Physical type (direct + phys = 33%) and 10% magicka type (direct + mag = 32%). With CP 2.0 since additional resistances must be slotted and they added AoE as seperate damage where before it was either considered direct or DOT, all except my tanks are losing roughly 10% resistance and my tanks will lose 3-5% due to Resolve nerf and CP nerf (usually put 21pts in armor focus for a 2k gain)

WrathOfInnos

Light and Heavy Attacks were both made weaker by the removal of the Champion Points that boosted them (like Staff Expert), and Light Attacks took another damage hit by the removal of Master at Arms.

It’s basically a more subtle implementation of the nerfed light attack experiment on PTS a few months back, and should serve to bring the floor and ceiling closer together.

Weaving should never be removed, too many mechanics and sets rely on it.

Ekzorka

Bodycounter wrote: »

Does it really matter if bad players drop from 22k DPS to 20k DPS? No. Does it matter when good players drop from 110k DPS to 90k DPS? Yes. Since ZoS buffed many base stats bad players may actually end up with higher DPS than before whereas good players have been tuned down with this patch. Exactly what ZoS wanted.

I'm an average player. Average players lost damage (again), lost sustain (again), lost acceptable survivability. Is that a Top-DDs nerf? No.

FantasticFreddie

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I dont like LA weaving as it is. I find no skill behind it, it's not fun period. Anything you have to practice for hours on end and time near perfectly is not fun, its mindless. I so much prefer the combat of Dark Souls but I have burned those games out playing through them several times over. Besides the considerably lengthier content of ESO I really stay around for the outfit system and that's pretty much it. I like being able to have my characters running around looking the way I want and still being effective unlike attempting fashion souls at NG++

"There is no skill behind light attack weaving, you just have to practice for hours to be good at it"
????

Bodycounter

Ekzorka wrote: »

I'm an average player. Average players lost damage (again), lost sustain (again), lost acceptable survivability. Is that a Top-DDs nerf? No.

In all honesty: I actually have no idea how you lost sustain and damage with the current patch. Survivability is different but not directly worse in my opinion.

Chilly-McFreeze

Bodycounter wrote: »

Ekzorka wrote: »

I'm an average player. Average players lost damage (again), lost sustain (again), lost acceptable survivability. Is that a Top-DDs nerf? No.

In all honesty: I actually have no idea how you lost sustain and damage with the current patch. Survivability is different but not directly worse in my opinion.

Major/ minor regen buffs (endurance, intellect etc) nerfed from 40 to 30/ 20 to 15%.

CP power output nerfed (penetration, unconditional crit damage, light/ heavy attack damage, 20% resource boon etc.)

On survivability I haven't done the math but I indeed feel squishier.
Mind that while in CP 1.0 you had red for defense and blue for mostly offensive purposes you now have to split your blue CP for both. So being in mid-range CP means to make sacrifices.

Finally you have to make up for lost regen/ survivability or damage by losing out on something even more.

Just to name a few obstacles for mentioned average players.

Keep in mind that those average players don't tend to do the math for complete optimization. Easiest way are meta builds but question is if you would call someone dedicated enough to do research and farm sets still an "average player".

honey_badger82

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I dont like LA weaving as it is. I find no skill behind it, it's not fun period. Anything you have to practice for hours on end and time near perfectly is not fun, its mindless. I so much prefer the combat of Dark Souls but I have burned those games out playing through them several times over. Besides the considerably lengthier content of ESO I really stay around for the outfit system and that's pretty much it. I like being able to have my characters running around looking the way I want and still being effective unlike attempting fashion souls at NG++

"There is no skill behind light attack weaving, you just have to practice for hours to be good at it"
????

practice does not = skill. Some people practice shooting long range for thousands and thousands of rounds and will never possess the skill of anything other than an average marksman.

square, r2, triangle, r2, circle, r2, L1, r2, bar swap, square, r2.... yadda yadda yadda. This is memorization not skill. Go ahead and play dark souls and do invasions. That takes skill. You have to assess how the player moves, what armor they are wearing, is he over aggressive in his attacks or turtleling behind a shield(is said shield a parry shield, medium or tower?) what weapons is he using...etc. You cannot memorize anything and use it to get through 90% of your encounters only varying for emergency heals.

FantasticFreddie

honey_badger82 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I dont like LA weaving as it is. I find no skill behind it, it's not fun period. Anything you have to practice for hours on end and time near perfectly is not fun, its mindless. I so much prefer the combat of Dark Souls but I have burned those games out playing through them several times over. Besides the considerably lengthier content of ESO I really stay around for the outfit system and that's pretty much it. I like being able to have my characters running around looking the way I want and still being effective unlike attempting fashion souls at NG++

"There is no skill behind light attack weaving, you just have to practice for hours to be good at it"
????

practice does not = skill. Some people practice shooting long range for thousands and thousands of rounds and will never possess the skill of anything other than an average marksman.

square, r2, triangle, r2, circle, r2, L1, r2, bar swap, square, r2.... yadda yadda yadda. This is memorization not skill. Go ahead and play dark souls and do invasions. That takes skill. You have to assess how the player moves, what armor they are wearing, is he over aggressive in his attacks or turtleling behind a shield(is said shield a parry shield, medium or tower?) what weapons is he using...etc. You cannot memorize anything and use it to get through 90% of your encounters only varying for emergency heals.

Post your parse and info page, show us how easy hitting 100k on a magcro is.
Or, you prefer content? Fine, show us an 110k parse on Yandir in vKA.
"I mean pvp!"
Well, link a video of yourself light weaving during a 1vX fight then.

I'm not saying light attack weaving is right or wrong. I'm saying that it takes time, practice, and dedication to do well, and yes, I would call that skill.
If you prefer Dark Souls so much, why are you playing eso?

honey_badger82

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

honey_badger82 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I dont like LA weaving as it is. I find no skill behind it, it's not fun period. Anything you have to practice for hours on end and time near perfectly is not fun, its mindless. I so much prefer the combat of Dark Souls but I have burned those games out playing through them several times over. Besides the considerably lengthier content of ESO I really stay around for the outfit system and that's pretty much it. I like being able to have my characters running around looking the way I want and still being effective unlike attempting fashion souls at NG++

"There is no skill behind light attack weaving, you just have to practice for hours to be good at it"
????

practice does not = skill. Some people practice shooting long range for thousands and thousands of rounds and will never possess the skill of anything other than an average marksman.

square, r2, triangle, r2, circle, r2, L1, r2, bar swap, square, r2.... yadda yadda yadda. This is memorization not skill. Go ahead and play dark souls and do invasions. That takes skill. You have to assess how the player moves, what armor they are wearing, is he over aggressive in his attacks or turtleling behind a shield(is said shield a parry shield, medium or tower?) what weapons is he using...etc. You cannot memorize anything and use it to get through 90% of your encounters only varying for emergency heals.

Post your parse and info page, show us how easy hitting 100k on a magcro is.
Or, you prefer content? Fine, show us an 110k parse on Yandir in vKA.
"I mean pvp!"
Well, link a video of yourself light weaving during a 1vX fight then.

I'm not saying light attack weaving is right or wrong. I'm saying that it takes time, practice, and dedication to do well, and yes, I would call that skill.
If you prefer Dark Souls so much, why are you playing eso?

Yes magcro... because I totally use stick waivers... wait I dont, I have one magicka character and it's a healer. The other 12 are stamina, 3 tanks rest dps.

You wont ever see said links from me as in your opinion I am such an unskilled player due to not being sooo dedicated to the video game that I spend hours and hours and hours of play time in front of a practice dummy honing my amazing digital skills. I prefer to actually spend my time doing content and not showing everyone how great I am at the content by making parse videos.

Literally the first post in this thread you decided to quote stated why I am playing ESO and not playing dark souls series anymore or at least not as often. If your going to call something out might as well carefully read everything.

FantasticFreddie

honey_badger82 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

honey_badger82 wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I dont like LA weaving as it is. I find no skill behind it, it's not fun period. Anything you have to practice for hours on end and time near perfectly is not fun, its mindless. I so much prefer the combat of Dark Souls but I have burned those games out playing through them several times over. Besides the considerably lengthier content of ESO I really stay around for the outfit system and that's pretty much it. I like being able to have my characters running around looking the way I want and still being effective unlike attempting fashion souls at NG++

"There is no skill behind light attack weaving, you just have to practice for hours to be good at it"
????

practice does not = skill. Some people practice shooting long range for thousands and thousands of rounds and will never possess the skill of anything other than an average marksman.

square, r2, triangle, r2, circle, r2, L1, r2, bar swap, square, r2.... yadda yadda yadda. This is memorization not skill. Go ahead and play dark souls and do invasions. That takes skill. You have to assess how the player moves, what armor they are wearing, is he over aggressive in his attacks or turtleling behind a shield(is said shield a parry shield, medium or tower?) what weapons is he using...etc. You cannot memorize anything and use it to get through 90% of your encounters only varying for emergency heals.

Post your parse and info page, show us how easy hitting 100k on a magcro is.
Or, you prefer content? Fine, show us an 110k parse on Yandir in vKA.
"I mean pvp!"
Well, link a video of yourself light weaving during a 1vX fight then.

I'm not saying light attack weaving is right or wrong. I'm saying that it takes time, practice, and dedication to do well, and yes, I would call that skill.
If you prefer Dark Souls so much, why are you playing eso?

Yes magcro... because I totally use stick waivers... wait I dont, I have one magicka character and it's a healer. The other 12 are stamina, 3 tanks rest dps.

You wont ever see said links from me as in your opinion I am such an unskilled player due to not being sooo dedicated to the video game that I spend hours and hours and hours of play time in front of a practice dummy honing my amazing digital skills. I prefer to actually spend my time doing content and not showing everyone how great I am at the content by making parse videos.

Literally the first post in this thread you decided to quote stated why I am playing ESO and not playing dark souls series anymore or at least not as often. If your going to call something out might as well carefully read everything.

Yeah, you stopped playing dark souls, because you got bored.
ESO has a system that rewards practice and dedication. That is not, in fact, a bad thing.
If you don't like it, keep playing dress up. I don't care, the outfit system is cool.
But unless you are willing to put your money where you mouth is, maybe don't comment on how much skill it takes.

Stevie6

Bodycounter wrote: »

Ekzorka wrote: »

I'm an average player. Average players lost damage (again), lost sustain (again), lost acceptable survivability. Is that a Top-DDs nerf? No.

In all honesty: I actually have no idea how you lost sustain and damage with the current patch. Survivability is different but not directly worse in my opinion.

I’ve actually seen this time and time again after every major patch/update. I’m an average Joe player that will never see 30 or even 20k dps ever again. I just don’t have the “twitch skill” for LA and I will never have. I’m happy for those that can adapt to LA but several others just can’t. HA was good back before Horrowind. Now, it blows dog. My light and heavy attacks are the same 3300 to 4000..sometimes a lot less (300 to 400). My average dps is barely 11k after this last update before it was 18 to 20k dps. I was in the 30k + range with the old petsorc before HorrorWind nerfbat. Raising the floor didn’t happen this patch. Average Joe declined once again trying to find another set to utilize while the mid to upper end just made their adjustments and are basically ok.

The devs should take a hard look at the average Joe player base and make adjustments for them. The nerfbat was utilized and the bottom just fell out for the low end and average Joe. Solo play is basically dead...regulated to overland npcs and normal dungeons. Heh going back to GW2 for a while....I hope Microsoft will work a miracle.