Wasn't this patch supposed to help casual players?

Ohjay82

I am a casual player, I know a lot of you guys would rather casual players just left and stopped complaining however here I am anyways, complaining about a game that I haven't put even remotely as many hours into as most of you guys have but here goes anyways...

Unfortunately I just don't have a ton of time per week to play this game however I still enjoy doing dungeons when i get a chance. I was JUST getting to a point where my DPS was at least respectable in vet dungeons. It's nowhere near the 100k that the top tier guys are doing in Youtube videos but given the right conditions i could pull off a 50k+ DPS on a few bosses. Which in my experience playing with my healer or tank and not being one of the DPS is more than the average pug DPS is putting out. Since this update my DPS has taken an incredible hit to the point that I'm fighting to get to 30k now and mechanic heavy fights I'm closer to like 20k which is now at the bare minimum for some content. I thought they kept bragging about this update is supposed to close the gap? All it has done for me personally is pushed me down to the point where I won't feel comfortable queueing for some group content with my DPS numbers.

That said, once I've had a chance to refigure out my gear, skills and cast order I'm sure ill be able to make up some of that loss but heck.. I just spent the past 2 years slowly figuring that all out,
it feels like a video game that you played for awhile but forgot to save then the power goes out, you restart the game and you're like "Jeez... I'm so far back now..." These past few days I haven't even feel like logging in to a crappy character that does terrible DPS meanwhile I need to farm new gear because my current stuff clearly isn't optimal anymore. I haven't even began to set up my healer or tank yet after how disappointing it has been doing my DPS I just don't have a lot of motivation.

Aside from me, it also makes me wonder what a pug is going to look like... a lot of random DPS already didn't seem to put much effort into maximizing their DPS. It was painful playing my healer and having a vet group doing only 30k DPS. Now that's going to be like 15-20k DPS.

lihentian

yea.. now everyone is casual player. i mean anyway under 3600 cp

Ittrix

When they say casual players, they mean low CP players. No CP got immensely buffed, and 'max' CP (1800) is around where 810 was (but a little lower).
If you were above 400 CP or so you're going to see nerfs, and you're going to see setbacks to how much value your CP has. Really, if they had taken past experience and put it into the new system it'd work out great, but they didn't.

VaranisArano

The update was supposed to close the gap, but also create a 15-20% nerf to DPS, and they may try to lower the power of DPS even further in the future. So as with many mid-tier players, you got hit with the worst of both worlds - too high to really benefit from raising the floor, too low to break through the lowered ceiling.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

It's a bit go a double edged sword.

They have absolutely closed the gap between 0 CP and and Max CP, and frankly, by quite a lot. A min/maxed DPS without CP prior to the patch was in the 50k range on a dummy, and a full CP DPS was in the 110k+ range. Now a No-CP DPS can hit in the 80k range, and just over 100k with max CP. In other words, CP contributes a lot less towards you damage. Low CP players were buffed, high CP players were nerfed, but that misses a huge part of the damage equation which is player rotation/skill level.

The other side is that everyone at max CP took a DPS hit in the range of 5-10%. Most people are feeling that it is even more than that, but there are build adjustments to be made to lower the impact. An obvious one is that thief is better than shadow now in most situations with most classes. You may need to consider your slottables in the CP system. For example the best dummy parses you see all use the back stabber slottable, and on some bosses, that is not viable. In those fights, the damage dropoff is going to be more noticeable.

Finally, we are all generally tankier (way more health) and have better sustain with the new CP system. Not only does this bring other food options into play (another DPS adjustment to consider), but it just generally makes everyone more survivable, which can certainly be interpreted as a buff to casual players, even if it doesnt directly impact damage.

I don't have hard math to support this, but I think mid-tier CP (400-600 range) probably got the worst end of this. Classic ZOS because by their own admission, the average player (whatever that means) has about 410 CP.

Ohjay82

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It's a bit go a double edged sword.

They have absolutely closed the gap between 0 CP and and Max CP, and frankly, by quite a lot. A min/maxed DPS without CP prior to the patch was in the 50k range on a dummy, and a full CP DPS was in the 110k+ range. Now a No-CP DPS can hit in the 80k range, and just over 100k with max CP. In other words, CP contributes a lot less towards you damage. Low CP players were buffed, high CP players were nerfed, but that misses a huge part of the damage equation which is player rotation/skill level.

I am truly curious how a 0 CP person does 50k dps on a dummy. I thought I had my rotation down pretty well and able to maintain .8 LA/sec and only peaked at around 65k on the dummy. I chalked it up to gear that made the difference, but if you're telling me an entry level 50 with 0 CP can do 50k DPS, I really need to re-evaluate what I'm doing.

Aside from that, I am 570 CP so it sounds like I'm right in the crappy range.

Ittrix

Ohjay82 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It's a bit go a double edged sword.

They have absolutely closed the gap between 0 CP and and Max CP, and frankly, by quite a lot. A min/maxed DPS without CP prior to the patch was in the 50k range on a dummy, and a full CP DPS was in the 110k+ range. Now a No-CP DPS can hit in the 80k range, and just over 100k with max CP. In other words, CP contributes a lot less towards you damage. Low CP players were buffed, high CP players were nerfed, but that misses a huge part of the damage equation which is player rotation/skill level.

I am truly curious how a 0 CP person does 50k dps on a dummy. I thought I had my rotation down pretty well and able to maintain .8 LA/sec and only peaked at around 65k on the dummy. I chalked it up to gear that made the difference, but if you're telling me an entry level 50 with 0 CP can do 50k DPS, I really need to re-evaluate what I'm doing.

Aside from that, I am 570 CP so it sounds like I'm right in the crappy range.

well, they mean a max CP person who isn't using CP with max level sets and gear and all that jazz.

Viewsfrom6ix

A youtuber, skinny cheeks did a video on DPS for CP 2.0/CP1.0

CP 1.0

• No CP - 55k DPS
• 810 CP - 114k DPS

CP 2.0

• No CP - 80k DPS
• 810 CP - 96k DPS
• 3600 CP - 104k DPS

Yes, higher maxed CP players got a nerf but low CP players got a massive buff.

If you can show a parse screenshot of CMX, people are more than willing to help you out.

Kwoung

Viewsfrom6ix wrote: »

A youtuber, skinny cheeks did a video on DPS for CP 2.0/CP1.0

CP 1.0

• No CP - 55k DPS
• 810 CP - 114k DPS

CP 2.0

• No CP - 80k DPS
• 810 CP - 96k DPS
• 3600 CP - 104k DPS

Yes, higher maxed CP players got a nerf but low CP players got a massive buff.

If you can show a parse screenshot of CMX, people are more than willing to help you out.

Was about to reply the same, here is the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdkQ4a649vo

kringled_1

Between resource buffs and diminishing returns on stars, while old cp may have had a large difference between 0 and 810,I'm guessing that by 300-400 cp you'd removed quite a lot of that gap. As old cp mitigation and damage were distinct, you didn't have the tradeoff in blue tree that there is now until well over 1500. So I'm less convinced that those parse numbers are the end all be all of how well things translated between the two systems.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Ohjay82 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

It's a bit go a double edged sword.

They have absolutely closed the gap between 0 CP and and Max CP, and frankly, by quite a lot. A min/maxed DPS without CP prior to the patch was in the 50k range on a dummy, and a full CP DPS was in the 110k+ range. Now a No-CP DPS can hit in the 80k range, and just over 100k with max CP. In other words, CP contributes a lot less towards you damage. Low CP players were buffed, high CP players were nerfed, but that misses a huge part of the damage equation which is player rotation/skill level.

I am truly curious how a 0 CP person does 50k dps on a dummy. I thought I had my rotation down pretty well and able to maintain .8 LA/sec and only peaked at around 65k on the dummy. I chalked it up to gear that made the difference, but if you're telling me an entry level 50 with 0 CP can do 50k DPS, I really need to re-evaluate what I'm doing.

Aside from that, I am 570 CP so it sounds like I'm right in the crappy range.

@Ohjay82

That was last patch. And to be clear, these comparisons are done by very skilled players wearing min/maxed trial gear with and without CP equipped. They can be somewhat misleading because most low CP players arent going to have gold perfect trial gear, but they are accurate to show the impact of CP in isolation.

In CP 2.0, You can pull around 80k now on a trial dummy without CP, assuming your rotation is on point and you have min/maxed gear. Gear matters, rotation matters much much more. It is also accurate to say that CP in 2.0 has less of an impact on DPS than in 1.0, so the gap has closed, at least on paper.

.8 LA/Sec is not bad, but to be honest, its not great either. The best players are in the .95 range or so. That is quite a big difference over a 3-4 minute fight.

The other thing is that LA/Sec can be a misleading stat if you are simply taking the number of LAs on your parse and dividing by the number of seconds. What you really want to know is how many skills you fired in that time and how many light attacks you missed. In other words, Pace of rotation and accuracy of LA weave. LA/sec is a great way to quickly spot check a parse, but there is a little more to it.

My guess is you are missing LAs AND your pace is slower than you think it is. Mine was when I dived into it. I was right around 100k on both magsorc and magcro last patch. My pace was usually in the .93-.95 range, but on average, I would almost always miss at least a few light attacks bringing my LA ratio down to around .91 or so. You really need to look at both. Combat metrics will give you all this info. You may also find (i certainly did) that there are certain skills that seem to be your problem in terms of missing LAs or taking longer to cast, so that is something you can specifically focus on.

This video is both an excellent guide to Magcro and gives a good overview of what I am talking about, and how to check if you have CMX. If you dont care about Magrco specifically, you can skip to the tab about "How to Increase Speed) around the 24 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEv795kBWK4&t=567s

nublife01

I know yall are talking about PVE, but this patch actually completely shafts the casual average level 400cp player in pvp. CP in CP 2.0 matters a great deal more than it did in CP 1.0 and you need to be about cp level 1400 to not get completely rolled by anyone 1400+. This includes players that are CP 1200. A casual player will need to grind 1000 levels of exp to actually stand a chance in cp pvp and any player who was at the previous level 810 cap has to grind 590 levels. It was a horrible change. It makes me doubt that ZoS plays their own game.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I posted this in another thread, but I will also post here, because it may be more on topic.

The net result of these changes is that PVE DPS is even more about rotation at his point, as your gear, race, and CP matter less today than they did last week.

This is a bit of a Catch 22 or maybe just ZOS missing the mark to some degree on the actual problem. Rotation has always been the biggest piece of the puzzle when it comes to DPS, not gear, not CP, not Race, ROTATION ROTATION ROTATION!!!

Rotation is always the primary factor that causes the difference between good an bad players. Ironically, when they closed the CP gap, they put even more importance on the one thing they simply cant control with CP or balance decisions. The best players are just better at pressing buttons, and in this game, that REALLY matters. And now, it seems to matter more.

DUTCH_REAPER

I used to have 75k dps now I am at 65k. My friend who is lower CP used to be 45k dps and now he has risen to 55k dps. So it definitely has brought lower cp players up.

Athan1

Excuse me, but 50-70k DPS is not casual play. Casual play means not bis gear, no parses, just playing the game for fun. If you have addons to monitor and record people's dps you aren't a casual, you are a serious/committed player. Dropping dps by 10-20k on the high end was intended. The goal of this patch was to nerf experienced players' dps and to buff real casuals, which is exactly what it did.

SilverBride

Ittrix wrote: »

When they say casual players, they mean low CP players.

That is not what a casual player is. Someone can be CP 3600 and still be a casual player. Casual is a playstyle not a ranking.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

SilverBride wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

When they say casual players, they mean low CP players.

That is not what a casual player is. Someone can be CP 3600 and still be a casual player. Casual is a playstyle not a ranking.

I dunno... If you have 3600, you are pretty hardcore, try-hard, whatever the opposite of casual is. I get your point, but maybe not the best example. Haha

Kane_Hart

Newer player here and I feel quite buffed and very casual.

Chilly-McFreeze

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Finally, we are all generally tankier (way more health) and have better sustain with the new CP system. Not only does this bring other food options into play (another DPS adjustment to consider), but it just generally makes everyone more survivable, which can certainly be interpreted as a buff to casual players, even if it doesnt directly impact damage.

Are we more survivable? Just read a handful of comments that people have their hands full with keeping their chars alive outside of dummy humping. Especially when we consider that currently most people don't have enough CP to max out offense and defense in the blue star.

I know because I sit around 1030 and I can't even max out my offense with very little in the def sub-tree. A few k health more or less scales not as well as mitigation.

But admittely I haven't done the math on what mitigation is possible to archieve in comparison to cp 1.0 (except 10% base mit + 8% npc dmg mit + 4% elemental / physical mit).

SilverBride

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

When they say casual players, they mean low CP players.

That is not what a casual player is. Someone can be CP 3600 and still be a casual player. Casual is a playstyle not a ranking.

I dunno... If you have 3600, you are pretty hardcore, try-hard, whatever the opposite of casual is. I get your point, but maybe not the best example. Haha

I can never step foot in a vet dungeon or trial because I have a casual playstyle, but can still be CP 3600 because I play a lot doing quests and other less hardcore activities.

Ittrix

SilverBride wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

When they say casual players, they mean low CP players.

That is not what a casual player is. Someone can be CP 3600 and still be a casual player. Casual is a playstyle not a ranking.

You're right, it's not what a casual player is. Which is why I say they don't mean casual player and what they do mean is low to no CP players.

SilverBride

Ittrix wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Ittrix wrote: »

When they say casual players, they mean low CP players.

That is not what a casual player is. Someone can be CP 3600 and still be a casual player. Casual is a playstyle not a ranking.

You're right, it's not what a casual player is. Which is why I say they don't mean casual player and what they do mean is low to no CP players.

Ok I think I misunderstood what you meant at first. Thanks for clarifying.

Elsonso

/

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Are we more survivable? Just read a handful of comments that people have their hands full with keeping their chars alive outside of dummy humping. Especially when we consider that currently most people don't have enough CP to max out offense and defense in the blue star.

I think we are more survivable, but we are also not putting out the DPS. At least, I wasn't. Combat runs longer, sustain becomes an issue, and the added survivability is needed to get you through it. I am not sure that a target dummy can prepare people for that. I never use target dummies, so I don't know.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Finally, we are all generally tankier (way more health) and have better sustain with the new CP system. Not only does this bring other food options into play (another DPS adjustment to consider), but it just generally makes everyone more survivable, which can certainly be interpreted as a buff to casual players, even if it doesnt directly impact damage.

Are we more survivable? Just read a handful of comments that people have their hands full with keeping their chars alive outside of dummy humping. Especially when we consider that currently most people don't have enough CP to max out offense and defense in the blue star.

I know because I sit around 1030 and I can't even max out my offense with very little in the def sub-tree. A few k health more or less scales not as well as mitigation.

But admittely I haven't done the math on what mitigation is possible to archieve in comparison to cp 1.0 (except 10% base mit + 8% npc dmg mit + 4% elemental / physical mit).

I am at 1370ish. Personally, I have way more survivability. I have more health now running parse food solo than I did with max health/magic food in 12 man fully buffed raid a week ago. I also have way better sustain, and sustain equals survivability. I havent done the math either, it's certainly possible our mitigation took a bit of a hit on paper depending on your CP level, and a pure tank might have a different perspective, but the buffs in other areas seem to significantly outweigh that.

Cant remember if it was this thread were I stated it, but I strongly question the approach of hitting your damage cap before focusing on mitigation for the vast majority of the playerbase. CP just doesnt impact damage all that much. Definitely get your main damage slottables, but you are arguably wise to get some mitigation before you push Damage after that.

Sylvermynx

Elsonso wrote: »

/

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Are we more survivable? Just read a handful of comments that people have their hands full with keeping their chars alive outside of dummy humping. Especially when we consider that currently most people don't have enough CP to max out offense and defense in the blue star.

I think we are more survivable, but we are also not putting out the DPS. At least, I wasn't. Combat runs longer, sustain becomes an issue, and the added survivability is needed to get you through it. I am not sure that a target dummy can prepare people for that. I never use target dummies, so I don't know.

I set up the new CP on my 50s, reset the skills (and the skill bars which somehow weren't the way I left them) and took each of them out to find 3-5 hostiles, and a couple of 1 gemmers just to see. I didn't have any issues on any of them (except the one with only 78 CP which is logical) - in fact my CP500 and CP415 on PC NA accounts wiped the floor with all of them faster than they could before. Sustain wasn't a problem. They just ate the crown meals for food like they always do.

So I think I'm in much better shape than I thought I would be, not to mention being in better shape than I WAS pre 2.0. The CP78 of course will have to spend a lot of time playing and crafting to get some decent CP eventually; but the other account (PC EU) has just over 200 CP and that 50 was doing fine too, even though you can't really get much of anything with only 200 CP - at least that's what it felt like to me.

Ohjay82

Athan1 wrote: »

Excuse me, but 50-70k DPS is not casual play. Casual play means not bis gear, no parses, just playing the game for fun. If you have addons to monitor and record people's dps you aren't a casual, you are a serious/committed player. Dropping dps by 10-20k on the high end was intended. The goal of this patch was to nerf experienced players' dps and to buff real casuals, which is exactly what it did.

I am casual, It doesn't mean I cant care about my DPS. I have played other MMO's at a higher level back when I was young and single. Now that I am married and have kids I can't put in nearly the amount of time, but It only took me like 5 minutes to download CMX, LA helper and a few other mods. I don't have time to be able to do any raid type stuff.. just do dungeons. I get a few hours a week to play, I think that makes me pretty casual. I most certainly don't have any bis gear.

Nagastani

lihentian wrote: »

yea.. now everyone is casual player. i mean anyway under 3600 cp

This.

With no proc sets (and this encompassing 90% of sets in the game) there is no real build diversity, no reason for anyone to try to obtain better gear or do research to learn how things really work and now yes, everyone is a casual player. Just copy and paste from the same Shacklebreaker + Spriggan's/Spinner build that everyone is using now. Seriously what a pathetic joke.

I hope they're happy.

McGordon

Becouse every time zos comes up with something they miss someone who tells them, guys these is good but you know what would be better...
CP 2.0 is way better than cp 1.0 for casual players, but to close gap and make power gap between lower cp and higher cp is to change how cp stats increase. By that I mean, instead of increasing lets say 200 stamina for every 10 points you spend, increase need to decrease for every 10 points.
So:
First 10 points = +200
Second 10 +180
Third +160
So in 5 stages instead of + 10000 samina player at wpd get 200+180+160+140+120= 800

jircris11

Ohjay82 wrote: »

I am a casual player, I know a lot of you guys would rather casual players just left and stopped complaining however here I am anyways, complaining about a game that I haven't put even remotely as many hours into as most of you guys have but here goes anyways...

Unfortunately I just don't have a ton of time per week to play this game however I still enjoy doing dungeons when i get a chance. I was JUST getting to a point where my DPS was at least respectable in vet dungeons. It's nowhere near the 100k that the top tier guys are doing in Youtube videos but given the right conditions i could pull off a 50k+ DPS on a few bosses. Which in my experience playing with my healer or tank and not being one of the DPS is more than the average pug DPS is putting out. Since this update my DPS has taken an incredible hit to the point that I'm fighting to get to 30k now and mechanic heavy fights I'm closer to like 20k which is now at the bare minimum for some content. I thought they kept bragging about this update is supposed to close the gap? All it has done for me personally is pushed me down to the point where I won't feel comfortable queueing for some group content with my DPS numbers.

That said, once I've had a chance to refigure out my gear, skills and cast order I'm sure ill be able to make up some of that loss but heck.. I just spent the past 2 years slowly figuring that all out,
it feels like a video game that you played for awhile but forgot to save then the power goes out, you restart the game and you're like "Jeez... I'm so far back now..." These past few days I haven't even feel like logging in to a crappy character that does terrible DPS meanwhile I need to farm new gear because my current stuff clearly isn't optimal anymore. I haven't even began to set up my healer or tank yet after how disappointing it has been doing my DPS I just don't have a lot of motivation.

Aside from me, it also makes me wonder what a pug is going to look like... a lot of random DPS already didn't seem to put much effort into maximizing their DPS. It was painful playing my healer and having a vet group doing only 30k DPS. Now that's going to be like 15-20k DPS.

In a way it DID help. Cp is not AS mandatory anymore. Before you needed to be at the cap fir any build to really work. Now even my low cp account is almost on par as my main. (Some perks missing)

LashanW

Ohjay82 wrote: »

I am truly curious how a 0 CP person does 50k dps on a dummy. I thought I had my rotation down pretty well and able to maintain .8 LA/sec and only peaked at around 65k on the dummy. I chalked it up to gear that made the difference, but if you're telling me an entry level 50 with 0 CP can do 50k DPS, I really need to re-evaluate what I'm doing.

A zero CP magsorc could do 61k+ dps on raid dummy last patch. But it's not really an entry level 50 character. That is with best gear, experience and 0.9+ LA/s.

Ohjay82

LashanW wrote: »

Ohjay82 wrote: »

I am truly curious how a 0 CP person does 50k dps on a dummy. I thought I had my rotation down pretty well and able to maintain .8 LA/sec and only peaked at around 65k on the dummy. I chalked it up to gear that made the difference, but if you're telling me an entry level 50 with 0 CP can do 50k DPS, I really need to re-evaluate what I'm doing.

A zero CP magsorc could do 61k+ dps on raid dummy last patch. But it's not really an entry level 50 character. That is with best gear, experience and 0.9+ LA/s.

Ah got you, Just had no CP distributed. That makes me feel a little better.

I kind of wish i could try a BIS version of my exact same build to see how big of a difference gear makes. I don't think I'm going to get my LA/Sec much better than .75-.8 in long fights. Out of curiosity of how big of a difference weaving did I tried comparing my .75 to a .65 DPS parse, and there was only about a 4-5k difference so I'm thinking even if I managed to up my weaving to .9, I'm only looking at a 10-15k increase, which is definitely a decent amount, but it's not taking me anywhere near 100k being that after this update I'm only doing around 50k DPS on the practice dummy.