Class and Resource Balance in No-Proc Cyrodiil: An Analysis

forzajuve212

The decision to go forward with no-proc Cyro for 6-7 months has truly shown the lack of balance at a fundamental level, both class wise and resource wise (Stam vs Magicka). Particularly, Stam Sorc has come to dominate as the most popular class for a number of reasons, overperforming in dueling, solo, and group play. Lets take a deeper look at the the two layers on imbalance in ESO PvP:

1. Class Imbalance

This will focus specifically on Stamina sorcerer, due to the sheer popularity and success of the spec in no-proc Cyrodiil. I could go into magicka sorc or a number of other imbalances, but many people have already addressed these topics at length.

- Crystal weapon has a number of problems. Crystal weapon acts as a delayed burst like shalks/deep breath AND a spammable as it lasts 4 seconds so you can decide when it goes off in a huge 4 second window. It can be combined with ele weapon, it reduces armor by 1000, gives sustain, procs on heavy attacks, doesn't have to be procced in melee range, and hits harder than crystal frag, a mag morph with a clear visual queue. This ability is plainly overloaded and overperforming in PvP. Combining with dawnbreaker and spin to win, and you have a class with strong aoe, single target, and execute capabilities with no effective way to mitigate this damage unless you are a stam build running major evasion yourself.

- Dark deal gives insane sustain, allowing stam sorcs to uniquely maximize damage in ways that other stam and mag classes (other than mag sorc) don't have access to. Combine this with extremely limited set options, and stam sorcs essentially leapfrog ahead of other specs as they can choose their gear, enchants, and mundus build around the foundation of having that ability in their pocket.

- Major + minor expedition + streak lets sorcs choose when and where to fight in ways that cannot be countered (see Nightblade cloak by comparison, which can be broken by aoe.) The streak morph, which is disproportionately used by stam sorcs over mag sorcs (who tend to use ball of lightning to mitigate ranged abilities) gives a powerful aoe cc and an escape mechanism all in one.

- Major evasion gives 20% reduced damage to aoe (with the nerfs to major protection, it is now a double major protection). This allows only one spec (5 medium users) to gain insane mitigation that light and heavy armor users (aka, mainly magicka builds) do not have access to. Combine this with most magicka classes predominately having aoe in their kit (mag warden and mag cro for example) and you have the near-death of most magicka specs other than mag sorc and the niche templar pug healer. In no-CP, the efficiency and value of major evasion skyrockets as CP mitigation disappears while Major Evasion retains the same flat value. Try playing solo in Ravenwatch and you'll enjoy getting multiple crystal weapon dawnbreaker nukes in your death recap. Although major evasion is available to all stam builds, when you add this in the context of everything I've mentioned above, it becomes clear why we're seeing mainly stam sorcs dominating in the meta beyond other stam classes.

2. Resource Imbalance (Stamina vs Magicka)

The recent armor changes has provided a window into how ZOS believes balancing should be, and how that contrasts with the reality on the ground in PvP.

In justifying giving Medium armor no penalties and only bonuses, with light and heavy getting penalties, Wheeler stated that "Light Armor has much more freedom with most of its Stamina costs but is less effective with outright soaking damage. Heavy Armor is now slower but bulkier, and Medium Armor is more slippery but with less sharp bonuses as it has no drawbacks."

Really? More slippery but with less sharp bonuses? Would you consider Major Evasion, reducing aoe damage by 20% and only accessible to medium armor users as "more slippery?" What is slippery about 20% raw flat mitigation that is inaccessible to other armor types and disproportionately punishes magicka classes, many of who (mag warden, mag necro, and mag templar) have no choice but to run core damage abilities that deal aoe?

If Light and Heavy armor have such sharp bonuses, why are their armor skills pitifully weak by comparison? Outside of magicka sorcs who specifically have to build to use shields, annulment is rarely if ever used due to its small size. Don't even get me started on unstoppable, which at this point probably is the most unused ability in the game. Wheeler seems to believe that medium armor is the middle ground of the bonuses that light and heavy armor builds, but when you look at the facts, this belief is not based in any reality.

Now, many of you might say, why don't you run single target abilities and dots to counter this? When you look at Major Evasion in the context of the no-proc and medium armor bonuses Cyrodiil, it becomes clear just how broken both stamina and the ability is.

There are only two ways to get around the prohibition on aoe from major evasion: single target direct damage and dots. With the core combat defining ability of stam builds being dodge rolling, single target abilities are effectively countered, as users cannot hit the player when they time the dodge roll. This provides strong, spec defining "slippery" feel that Wheeler refers to. This is not a problem on its own and is balanced.

However, what is the counter to dodge rolling? There are only two counters: aoe and dots. With major evasion, stamina builds can essentially defeat one of only two counters to their playstyle by providing a flat 20% nerf to that form of damage. This problem has only exacerbated in the recent update, as medium armor now gives 2% per piece of medium armor mitigation to aoe damage after dodge rolling for two seconds. A 5 medium user with major evasion and dodge roll can now reduce AOE damage by 30% alone, without even calculating CP into the equation or other major minor buffs.

Finally, with proc sets gone, magicka classes with a lack of strong dot pressure are essentially doomed in what I call the Stamina Paradox: you cant effectively single target and dot pressure down a stamina build because they dodge roll and you don't have strong class single target abilities; and you cant aoe down a stamina player because they get upwards of 30% reduced damage to you aoe abilities. Combine these two things, and you get a fundamentally unbalanced PvP environment with mag classes other than mag sorc (strong single target burst) and mag dk (strong dot pressure) being unable to effectively counter stam builds. They are essentially unplayable in the current meta in solo.

Would be great to hear from @ZOS_BrianWheeler or @ZOS_GinaBruno about the balancing issues between stam and mag, as well as the overperforming of stamina sorcs in the no-proc Cyrodiil environment.

monkiie

forzajuve212 wrote: »

The decision to go forward with no-proc Cyro for 6-7 months has truly shown the lack of balance at a fundamental level, both class wise and resource wise (Stam vs Magicka). Particularly, Stam Sorc has come to dominate as the most popular class for a number of reasons, overperforming in dueling, solo, and group play. Lets take a deeper look at the the two layers on imblanace in ESO PvP:

1. Class Imbalance

This will focus specifically on Stamina sorcerer, due to the sheer popularity and success of the spec in no-proc Cyrodiil.

- Crystal weapon has a number of problems. Crystal weapon acts as a delayed burst like shalks/deep breath AND a spammable as it lasts 4 seconds so you can decide when it goes off in a huge 4 second window. It can be combined with ele weapon, it reduces armor by 1000, gives sustain, procs on heavy attacks, doesn't have to be procced in melee range, and hits harder than crystal frag, a mag morph with a clear visual queue. This ability is plainly overloaded and overperforming in PvP. Combining with dawnbreaker and spin to win, and you have a class with strong aoe, single target, and execute capabilities with no effective way to mitigate this damage unless you are a stam build running major evasion yourself.

- Dark deal gives insane sustain, allowing stam sorcs to uniquely maximize damage in ways that other stam and mag classes (other than mag sorc) don't have access to. Combine this with extremely limited set options, and stam sorcs essentially leapfrog ahead of other specs as they can choose their gear, enchants, and mundus build around the foundation of having that ability in their pocket.

- Major + minor expedition + streak lets sorcs choose when and where to fight in ways that cannot be countered (see Nightblade cloak by comparison, which can be broken by aoe.) The streak morph, which is disproportionately used by stam sorcs over mag sorcs (who tend to use ball of lightning to mitigate ranged abilities) gives a powerful aoe cc and an escape mechanism all in one.

- Major evasion gives 20% reduced damage to aoe (with the nerfs to major protection, it is now a double major protection). This allows only one spec (5 medium users) to gain insane mitigation that light and heavy armor users (aka, mainly magicka builds) do not have access to. Combine this with most magicka classes predominately having aoe in their kit (mag warden and mag cro for example) and you have the near-death of most magicka specs other than mag sorc and the niche templar pug healer. In no-CP, the efficiency and value of major evasion skyrockets as CP mitigation disappears while Major Evasion retains the same flat value. Try playing solo in Ravenwatch and you'll enjoy getting multiple crystal weapon dawnbreaker nukes in your death recap. Although major evasion is available to all stam builds, when you add this in the context of everything I've mentioned above, it becomes clear why we're seeing mainly stam sorcs dominating in the meta beyond other stam classes.

2. Resource Imbalance (Stamina vs Magicka)

The recent armor changes has provided a window into how ZOS believes balancing should be, and how that contrasts with the reality on the ground in PvP.

In justifying giving Medium armor no penalties and only bonuses, with light and heavy getting penalties, Wheeler stated that "Light Armor has much more freedom with most of its Stamina costs but is less effective with outright soaking damage. Heavy Armor is now slower but bulkier, and Medium Armor is more slippery but with less sharp bonuses as it has no drawbacks."

Really? More slippery but with less sharp bonuses? Would you consider Major Evasion, reducing aoe damage by 20% and only accessible to medium armor users as "more slippery?" What is slippery about 20% raw flat mitigation that is inaccessible to other armor types and disproportionately punishes magicka classes, many of who (mag warden, mag necro, and mag templar) have no choice but to run core damage abilities that deal aoe?

If Light and Heavy armor have such sharp bonuses, why are their armor skills pitifully weak by comparison? Outside of magicka sorcs who specifically have to build to use shields, annulment is rarely if ever used due to its small size. Don't even get me started on unstoppable, which at this point probably is the most unused ability in the game. Wheeler seems to believe that medium armor is the middle ground of the bonuses that light and heavy armor builds, but when you look at the facts, this belief is not based in any reality.

Now, many of you might say, why don't you run single target abilities and dots to counter this? When you look at Major Evasion in the context of the no-proc and medium armor bonuses Cyrodiil, it becomes clear just how broken both stamina and the ability is.

There are only two ways to get around the prohibition on aoe from major evasion: single target direct damage and dots. With the core combat defining ability of stam builds being dodge rolling, single target abilities are effectively countered, as users cannot hit the player when they time the dodge roll. This provides strong, spec defining "slippery" feel that Wheeler refers to. This is not a problem on its own and is balanced.

However, what is the counter to dodge rolling? There are only two counters: aoe and dots. With major evasion, stamina builds can essentially defeat one of only two counters to their playstyle by providing a flat 20% nerf to that form of damage. This problem has only exacerbated in the recent update, as medium armor now gives 2% per piece of medium armor mitigation to aoe damage after dodge rolling for two seconds. A 5 medium user with major evasion and dodge roll can now reduce AOE damage by 30% alone, without even calculating CP into the equation or other major minor buffs.

Finally, with proc sets gone, magicka classes with a lack of strong dot pressure are essentially doomed in what I call the Stamina Paradox: you cant effectively single target and dot pressure down a stamina build because they dodge roll and you don't have strong class single target abilities; and you cant aoe down a stamina player because they get upwards of 30% reduced damage to you aoe abilities. Combine these two things, and you get a fundamentally unbalanced PvP environment with mag classes other than mag sorc (strong single target burst) and mag dk (strong dot pressure) being unable to effectively counter stam builds. They are essentially unplayable in the current meta in solo.

Would be great to hear from @ZOS_BrianWheeler or @ZOS_GinaBruno about the balancing issues between stam and mag, as well as the overperforming of stamina sorcs in the no-proc Cyrodiil environment.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Everything this mans has said is true and only scratches the surface as to what is wrong with PvP at the moment. [snip] Cyrodiil is in the worst spot it has been in since I started playing in 2017. We can't wait another 3-4 months for you to cook up some balance changes. The disparity in power between armor/classes is atrocious and we need changes as soon as possible and not months down the line.

[Edited to remove Bashing]

HiImRex

Title:

"DEEP DIVE INTO IMBALANCES"

Content:

Nerf sorcs, stam sorcs, dodge roll, medium armor, and stam sorcs.

StaticWave

forzajuve212 wrote: »

Crystal weapon has a number of problems. Crystal weapon acts as a delayed burst like shalks/deep breath AND a spammable as it lasts 4 seconds so you can decide when it goes off in a huge 4 second window. It can be combined with ele weapon, it reduces armor by 1000, gives sustain, procs on heavy attacks, doesn't have to be procced in melee range, and hits harder than crystal frag, a mag morph with a clear visual queue. This ability is plainly overloaded and overperforming in PvP. Combining with dawnbreaker and spin to win, and you have a class with strong aoe, single target, and execute capabilities with no effective way to mitigate this damage unless you are a stam build running major evasion yourself.

Crystal Weapon is a spammable, with a spammable tooltip. This means it does not scale as well as AoE delayed spammables like Fissure or Blastbones. Mathematically, it is impossible to have the same tooltip damage as a CFrag, unless you're talking about the bug. Crystal Weapon is also a single target ability that can be dodged, so I don't know why you're bringing up Major Evasion here.. Ultimately, Crystal Weapon is in purgatory land, and can't really decide what it wants to be. It has the same damage and tooltip scaling as single target spammables, yet acts like a delayed burst. But it can't be the best at either. This is literally not the definition of "overloaded and overperforming".

forzajuve212 wrote: »

Dark deal gives insane sustain, allowing stam sorcs to uniquely maximize damage in ways that other stam and mag classes (other than mag sorc) don't have access to. Combine this with extremely limited set options, and stam sorcs essentially leapfrog ahead of other specs as they can choose their gear, enchants, and mundus build around the foundation of having that ability in their pocket.

Yea, stamsorc does have very good sustain, but that comes at the cost of a GCD. Yea you're gonna be able to maximize your damage, but you're gonna have 800 stam regen, and you're gonna gas out 10 seconds into an outnumbered fight, or a fight against decent players who actually know to interrupt the dark deals. So what are you gonna do once you're gassed out? You're gonna spam dark deals and waste several GCDs, whereas if you had invested into 2.5k stam regen, you would have never needed to use dark deal and could spam your abilities for pressure. This is what separates good stamsorcs from bad stamsorcs. Bad stamsorcs crutch on dark deals and gas out. Good stamsorcs build sustain so they never gas out and can always have the stamina to survive any situations.

forzajuve212 wrote: »

Major + minor expedition + streak lets sorcs choose when and where to fight in ways that cannot be countered (see Nightblade cloak by comparison, which can be broken by aoe.) The streak morph, which is disproportionately used by stam sorcs over mag sorcs (who tend to use ball of lightning to mitigate ranged abilities) gives a powerful aoe cc and an escape mechanism all in one.

Yea, the class is literally built for hit and run. They don't have Corrosive Amor, or Artic Blast, or Mortal Coil with busted defensive passives, or a cleanse which is one of the strongest defensive abilities in the game. Their heals rely on them doing crit damage to work (Crit Surge), or require a full second of channeling ( Dark Deal). We don't have those luxuries, so we build maximum speed to mitigate damage. Streak complements this playstyle, and the easiest way to counter a streaking stamsorc is to run a gap closer. You think Streak is strong? How about Shade + Cloak that literally lets a NB reset a fight at will. I mean, you can always go 3x swift and steed and be just as fast as a stamsorc. We ain't complaining are we.

forzajuve212 wrote: »

- Major evasion gives 20% reduced damage to aoe (with the nerfs to major protection, it is now a double major protection). This allows only one spec (5 medium users) to gain insane mitigation that light and heavy armor users (aka, mainly magicka builds) do not have access to. Combine this with most magicka classes predominately having aoe in their kit (mag warden and mag cro for example) and you have the near-death of most magicka specs other than mag sorc and the niche templar pug healer. In no-CP, the efficiency and value of major evasion skyrockets as CP mitigation disappears while Major Evasion retains the same flat value. Try playing solo in Ravenwatch and you'll enjoy getting multiple crystal weapon dawnbreaker nukes in your death recap. Although major evasion is available to all stam builds, when you add this in the context of everything I've mentioned above, it becomes clear why we're seeing mainly stam sorcs dominating in the meta beyond other stam classes.

Major Evasion can be used by any class, so why is this even a point?

forzajuve212 wrote: »

The recent armor changes has provided a window into how ZOS believes balancing should be, and how that contrasts with the reality on the ground in PvP.

In justifying giving Medium armor no penalties and only bonuses, with light and heavy getting penalties, Wheeler stated that "Light Armor has much more freedom with most of its Stamina costs but is less effective with outright soaking damage. Heavy Armor is now slower but bulkier, and Medium Armor is more slippery but with less sharp bonuses as it has no drawbacks."

Really? More slippery but with less sharp bonuses? Would you consider Major Evasion, reducing aoe damage by 20% and only accessible to medium armor users as "more slippery?" What is slippery about 20% raw flat mitigation that is inaccessible to other armor types and disproportionately punishes magicka classes, many of who (mag warden, mag necro, and mag templar) have no choice but to run core damage abilities that deal aoe?

If Light and Heavy armor have such sharp bonuses, why are their armor skills pitifully weak by comparison? Outside of magicka sorcs who specifically have to build to use shields, annulment is rarely if ever used due to its small size. Don't even get me started on unstoppable, which at this point probably is the most unused ability in the game. Wheeler seems to believe that medium armor is the middle ground of the bonuses that light and heavy armor builds, but when you look at the facts, this belief is not based in any reality.

Now, many of you might say, why don't you run single target abilities and dots to counter this? When you look at Major Evasion in the context of the no-proc and medium armor bonuses Cyrodiil, it becomes clear just how broken both stamina and the ability is.

There are only two ways to get around the prohibition on aoe from major evasion: single target direct damage and dots. With the core combat defining ability of stam builds being dodge rolling, single target abilities are effectively countered, as users cannot hit the player when they time the dodge roll. This provides strong, spec defining "slippery" feel that Wheeler refers to. This is not a problem on its own and is balanced.

However, what is the counter to dodge rolling? There are only two counters: aoe and dots. With major evasion, stamina builds can essentially defeat one of only two counters to their playstyle by providing a flat 20% nerf to that form of damage. This problem has only exacerbated in the recent update, as medium armor now gives 2% per piece of medium armor mitigation to aoe damage after dodge rolling for two seconds. A 5 medium user with major evasion and dodge roll can now reduce AOE damage by 30% alone, without even calculating CP into the equation or other major minor buffs.

Stamina is generally better solo and in small groups, whereas magicka is generally better in large groups. They fulfill their own role in PvP. If you want Magicka to be just as strong as Stamina, then I want every ability to also have a stamina morph and scales with max stamina.

Major Evasion is strong yea, but that comes at a cost of being in melee range, while you can sit back inside the keep spamming ranged abilities on people. You want Evasion? Then roll a stamina character and slot Evasion. You want to run a melee magicka character? Why not just run a stamina character in that case? You're slow, don't have enough stamina to roll or play in melee range, so why are you trying to tell ZOS to buff magicka to be on par with stamina when they are fundamentally different?

forzajuve212

HiImRex wrote: »

Title:

"DEEP DIVE INTO IMBALANCES"

Content:

Nerf sorcs, stam sorcs, dodge roll, medium armor, and stam sorcs.

"This will focus specifically on Stamina sorcerer, due to the sheer popularity and success of the spec in no-proc Cyrodiil. I could go into magicka sorc or a number of other imbalances, but many people have already addressed these topics at length."

forzajuve212

[snip]

vesselwiththepestle

You can run dw swords on mag classes in light armor or heavy armor for major evasion, it is not medium armor only.

Currently you can roll dodge so often on Magicka characters in light armor... it's insane. I was running 20k stamina in no cp on mag dk without even trying to boost my stamina, with the decreased cost to roll dodge in light armor, wow. That said, later I switched to Stamcro which showed to be like 10x stronger without even knowing how to play that class . I am wondering, if I should go for harmony, infused or swift on jewelry...

wheem_ESO

Stamina/Magicka imbalances, and Stam Sorc's overpoweredness specifically, aren't limited to no-proc Cyrodiil. One "medium attack" from a Stamina Sorcerer in BGs can result in simultaneous damage from:

• Medium Attack
• Crystal Weapon
• Frenzied Momentum (Vateshran 2h proc)
• Way of Fire proc
• Ashen Grip proc
• Weapon Enchant proc

Even with full proc sets and against a non-glass cannon opponent, the Crystal Weapon can hit for around 4-4.5k damage, with Frenzied Momentum being roughly the same. And all of that damage comes with 0 in-combat GCDs being required, so it can obviously either be stacked with a simultaneous Dawnbreaker, or come immediately after a Dizzying Swing or unblockable Streak stun. Literal 1-shots are very much a thing, but even if you do survive their initial burst + stun, all from a singular GCD, they'll have execute(s) available - including one that's AOE and undodgeable.

The burst in no-CP Cyrodiil might not be as high right now, without Vate 2h and the other burst procs, but it's still going to be extremely powerful. And some other classes will be even less able to retaliate without procs, should they survive the first burst attempt.

With significantly increased healing and baseline stats, proc-DOTs have been pretty heavily devalued, which makes this silly first-person-shooter style of gameplay even more powerful. Coincidentally, Stamina Sorcerer's wholly unmatched mobility makes it stronger still.

actosh

Well give us the tankiness of a warden/necro and those juicy totally overloaded Warden heal and won't even slot streak. Use a gap closer. Warden got the same burst and it is aoe.

relentless_turnip

😂😂😂 stamsorc overperforming!? Its good and annoying to fight(which seems to be your complaint). Is it as good as warden, necro, magsorc?

Nope

It's on a par with stamplar, stamdk and stamblade IMO. All stam classes tend to be better solo and magicka is better I groups.

relentless_turnip

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Stamina/Magicka imbalances, and Stam Sorc's overpoweredness specifically, aren't limited to no-proc Cyrodiil. One "medium attack" from a Stamina Sorcerer in BGs can result in simultaneous damage from:

• Medium Attack
• Crystal Weapon
• Frenzied Momentum (Vateshran 2h proc)
• Way of Fire proc
• Ashen Grip proc
• Weapon Enchant proc

Even with full proc sets and against a non-glass cannon opponent, the Crystal Weapon can hit for around 4-4.5k damage, with Frenzied Momentum being roughly the same. And all of that damage comes with 0 in-combat GCDs being required, so it can obviously either be stacked with a simultaneous Dawnbreaker, or come immediately after a Dizzying Swing or unblockable Streak stun. Literal 1-shots are very much a thing, but even if you do survive their initial burst + stun, all from a singular GCD, they'll have execute(s) available - including one that's AOE and undodgeable.

The burst in no-CP Cyrodiil might not be as high right now, without Vate 2h and the other burst procs, but it's still going to be extremely powerful. And some other classes will be even less able to retaliate without procs, should they survive the first burst attempt.

With significantly increased healing and baseline stats, proc-DOTs have been pretty heavily devalued, which makes this silly first-person-shooter style of gameplay even more powerful. Coincidentally, Stamina Sorcerer's wholly unmatched mobility makes it stronger still.

This is a complaint about a specific build. The only thing unique to stamsorc is crystal weapon. This could be recreated by any class using elemental weapon.

Mobility and sustain is all a stamsorc has. Crystal is good, but no better than any other spammable. It is used as delayed burst, but isn't as good as any other classes delayed burst.

Stamsorc has crap healing and in no cp tests it is good, but not as good as stamcro, stamden or magsorc.

LightYagami

forzajuve212 wrote: »

The decision to go forward with no-proc Cyro for 6-7 months has truly shown the lack of balance at a fundamental level, both class wise and resource wise (Stam vs Magicka). Particularly, Stam Sorc has come to dominate as the most popular class for a number of reasons, overperforming in dueling, solo, and group play. Lets take a deeper look at the the two layers on imbalance in ESO PvP:

1. Class Imbalance

This will focus specifically on Stamina sorcerer, due to the sheer popularity and success of the spec in no-proc Cyrodiil. I could go into magicka sorc or a number of other imbalances, but many people have already addressed these topics at length.

- Crystal weapon has a number of problems. Crystal weapon acts as a delayed burst like shalks/deep breath AND a spammable as it lasts 4 seconds so you can decide when it goes off in a huge 4 second window. It can be combined with ele weapon, it reduces armor by 1000, gives sustain, procs on heavy attacks, doesn't have to be procced in melee range, and hits harder than crystal frag, a mag morph with a clear visual queue. This ability is plainly overloaded and overperforming in PvP. Combining with dawnbreaker and spin to win, and you have a class with strong aoe, single target, and execute capabilities with no effective way to mitigate this damage unless you are a stam build running major evasion yourself.

- Dark deal gives insane sustain, allowing stam sorcs to uniquely maximize damage in ways that other stam and mag classes (other than mag sorc) don't have access to. Combine this with extremely limited set options, and stam sorcs essentially leapfrog ahead of other specs as they can choose their gear, enchants, and mundus build around the foundation of having that ability in their pocket.

- Major + minor expedition + streak lets sorcs choose when and where to fight in ways that cannot be countered (see Nightblade cloak by comparison, which can be broken by aoe.) The streak morph, which is disproportionately used by stam sorcs over mag sorcs (who tend to use ball of lightning to mitigate ranged abilities) gives a powerful aoe cc and an escape mechanism all in one.

- Major evasion gives 20% reduced damage to aoe (with the nerfs to major protection, it is now a double major protection). This allows only one spec (5 medium users) to gain insane mitigation that light and heavy armor users (aka, mainly magicka builds) do not have access to. Combine this with most magicka classes predominately having aoe in their kit (mag warden and mag cro for example) and you have the near-death of most magicka specs other than mag sorc and the niche templar pug healer. In no-CP, the efficiency and value of major evasion skyrockets as CP mitigation disappears while Major Evasion retains the same flat value. Try playing solo in Ravenwatch and you'll enjoy getting multiple crystal weapon dawnbreaker nukes in your death recap. Although major evasion is available to all stam builds, when you add this in the context of everything I've mentioned above, it becomes clear why we're seeing mainly stam sorcs dominating in the meta beyond other stam classes.

2. Resource Imbalance (Stamina vs Magicka)

The recent armor changes has provided a window into how ZOS believes balancing should be, and how that contrasts with the reality on the ground in PvP.

In justifying giving Medium armor no penalties and only bonuses, with light and heavy getting penalties, Wheeler stated that "Light Armor has much more freedom with most of its Stamina costs but is less effective with outright soaking damage. Heavy Armor is now slower but bulkier, and Medium Armor is more slippery but with less sharp bonuses as it has no drawbacks."

Really? More slippery but with less sharp bonuses? Would you consider Major Evasion, reducing aoe damage by 20% and only accessible to medium armor users as "more slippery?" What is slippery about 20% raw flat mitigation that is inaccessible to other armor types and disproportionately punishes magicka classes, many of who (mag warden, mag necro, and mag templar) have no choice but to run core damage abilities that deal aoe?

If Light and Heavy armor have such sharp bonuses, why are their armor skills pitifully weak by comparison? Outside of magicka sorcs who specifically have to build to use shields, annulment is rarely if ever used due to its small size. Don't even get me started on unstoppable, which at this point probably is the most unused ability in the game. Wheeler seems to believe that medium armor is the middle ground of the bonuses that light and heavy armor builds, but when you look at the facts, this belief is not based in any reality.

Now, many of you might say, why don't you run single target abilities and dots to counter this? When you look at Major Evasion in the context of the no-proc and medium armor bonuses Cyrodiil, it becomes clear just how broken both stamina and the ability is.

There are only two ways to get around the prohibition on aoe from major evasion: single target direct damage and dots. With the core combat defining ability of stam builds being dodge rolling, single target abilities are effectively countered, as users cannot hit the player when they time the dodge roll. This provides strong, spec defining "slippery" feel that Wheeler refers to. This is not a problem on its own and is balanced.

However, what is the counter to dodge rolling? There are only two counters: aoe and dots. With major evasion, stamina builds can essentially defeat one of only two counters to their playstyle by providing a flat 20% nerf to that form of damage. This problem has only exacerbated in the recent update, as medium armor now gives 2% per piece of medium armor mitigation to aoe damage after dodge rolling for two seconds. A 5 medium user with major evasion and dodge roll can now reduce AOE damage by 30% alone, without even calculating CP into the equation or other major minor buffs.

Finally, with proc sets gone, magicka classes with a lack of strong dot pressure are essentially doomed in what I call the Stamina Paradox: you cant effectively single target and dot pressure down a stamina build because they dodge roll and you don't have strong class single target abilities; and you cant aoe down a stamina player because they get upwards of 30% reduced damage to you aoe abilities. Combine these two things, and you get a fundamentally unbalanced PvP environment with mag classes other than mag sorc (strong single target burst) and mag dk (strong dot pressure) being unable to effectively counter stam builds. They are essentially unplayable in the current meta in solo.

Would be great to hear from @ZOS_BrianWheeler or @ZOS_GinaBruno about the balancing issues between stam and mag, as well as the overperforming of stamina sorcs in the no-proc Cyrodiil environment.

The truth is simple. ZOS don't care PvP, especially CP PvP. Look at their amazing official FAQ, they completely IGNORED CP PvP.

Majority of their decisions are based on PvE and role playing.

Mag classes are better at PvE so ZOS won't care how bad they are in PvP. Stam are underperforming in PvE so they keep buffing stam and they don't care how stam toons dominate PvP and slaughter mag toons (maybe except magsorcs)...

WreckfulAbandon

Main problem with Crystal Weapon is that it is doing bugged (way higher than should be possible) damage rn on medium attacks, and a lot of ppl have built entirely around the bugged damage. Bow users especially are abusing the bugged damage to take off half of someone's health with a single medium attack.

ZOS needs to normalize CW damage regardless of light/normal/heavy attack. Don't nerf stamsorc's combo skill without trying to make it work as intended first.

After doing some preliminary testing it looks like CW is not doing extra damage anymore when doing medium attacks, this is good news.

Damage seemed to be the same regardless of attack type, assuming this is a stealth fix from the recent patch.

Crom_CCCXVI

When the giant damage nerf new CP system comes in the game will be totally balanced with no one ever dying

wheem_ESO

relentless_turnip wrote: »

show previous quotes

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Stamina/Magicka imbalances, and Stam Sorc's overpoweredness specifically, aren't limited to no-proc Cyrodiil. One "medium attack" from a Stamina Sorcerer in BGs can result in simultaneous damage from:

• Medium Attack
• Crystal Weapon
• Frenzied Momentum (Vateshran 2h proc)
• Way of Fire proc
• Ashen Grip proc
• Weapon Enchant proc

Even with full proc sets and against a non-glass cannon opponent, the Crystal Weapon can hit for around 4-4.5k damage, with Frenzied Momentum being roughly the same. And all of that damage comes with 0 in-combat GCDs being required, so it can obviously either be stacked with a simultaneous Dawnbreaker, or come immediately after a Dizzying Swing or unblockable Streak stun. Literal 1-shots are very much a thing, but even if you do survive their initial burst + stun, all from a singular GCD, they'll have execute(s) available - including one that's AOE and undodgeable.

The burst in no-CP Cyrodiil might not be as high right now, without Vate 2h and the other burst procs, but it's still going to be extremely powerful. And some other classes will be even less able to retaliate without procs, should they survive the first burst attempt.

With significantly increased healing and baseline stats, proc-DOTs have been pretty heavily devalued, which makes this silly first-person-shooter style of gameplay even more powerful. Coincidentally, Stamina Sorcerer's wholly unmatched mobility makes it stronger still.

This is a complaint about a specific build. The only thing unique to stamsorc is crystal weapon. This could be recreated by any class using elemental weapon.

Mobility and sustain is all a stamsorc has. Crystal is good, but no better than any other spammable. It is used as delayed burst, but isn't as good as any other classes delayed burst.

Stamsorc has crap healing and in no cp tests it is good, but not as good as stamcro, stamden or magsorc.

It isn't just one specific build that's a problem, that's just an example of one possible "1-shot" setup, which have generally been around for a while now for Stam Sorcs. Crystal Weapon medium attacks are absolutely bugged when used with Bows, but I'm not entirely sure about 2h or DW. Either way, it hits harder than Crushing Weapon does, and has a 2 second longer window of opportunity to line up with burst, which obviously makes it much easier to pre-buff with. And that's what Stamina Sorcerer can do that other Stamina classes can't (at least not nearly as easily and reliably); pre-buff, then jump into a fight and 1-shot someone before escaping and setting up to do it all over again. And again, and again. A lot of builds simply are not able to chase and kill a Stam Sorc who isn't awful at the game (especially if they run Ball of Lightning).

Crystal Weapon also won't have its damage reduced by Major Evasion or Medium Armor passives, and is the easiest and most reliable delayed burst ability to line up with a medium attack + Vateshran 2h proc + other potential procs + off-GCD stun if using Dizzying Swing. There's no need to worry about a Blastbones getting CC'd, LOS'd, confused by terrain, etc...Nor do you have to worry about the telegraph of Subterranean Assault causing someone to counter-stun, be blocking ahead of time, etc...That's not to say that Stamina Warden and Stamina Necromancer are bad, because they 100% absolutely are not. But in some ways Stamina Sorcerer is just as good or better, and really has been for a while now, even if some people haven't caught on yet (or just don't like the typical playstyle, which is fair).

BohnT2

wheem_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

relentless_turnip wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Stamina/Magicka imbalances, and Stam Sorc's overpoweredness specifically, aren't limited to no-proc Cyrodiil. One "medium attack" from a Stamina Sorcerer in BGs can result in simultaneous damage from:

• Medium Attack
• Crystal Weapon
• Frenzied Momentum (Vateshran 2h proc)
• Way of Fire proc
• Ashen Grip proc
• Weapon Enchant proc

Even with full proc sets and against a non-glass cannon opponent, the Crystal Weapon can hit for around 4-4.5k damage, with Frenzied Momentum being roughly the same. And all of that damage comes with 0 in-combat GCDs being required, so it can obviously either be stacked with a simultaneous Dawnbreaker, or come immediately after a Dizzying Swing or unblockable Streak stun. Literal 1-shots are very much a thing, but even if you do survive their initial burst + stun, all from a singular GCD, they'll have execute(s) available - including one that's AOE and undodgeable.

The burst in no-CP Cyrodiil might not be as high right now, without Vate 2h and the other burst procs, but it's still going to be extremely powerful. And some other classes will be even less able to retaliate without procs, should they survive the first burst attempt.

With significantly increased healing and baseline stats, proc-DOTs have been pretty heavily devalued, which makes this silly first-person-shooter style of gameplay even more powerful. Coincidentally, Stamina Sorcerer's wholly unmatched mobility makes it stronger still.

This is a complaint about a specific build. The only thing unique to stamsorc is crystal weapon. This could be recreated by any class using elemental weapon.

Mobility and sustain is all a stamsorc has. Crystal is good, but no better than any other spammable. It is used as delayed burst, but isn't as good as any other classes delayed burst.

Stamsorc has crap healing and in no cp tests it is good, but not as good as stamcro, stamden or magsorc.

It isn't just one specific build that's a problem, that's just an example of one possible "1-shot" setup, which have generally been around for a while now for Stam Sorcs. Crystal Weapon medium attacks are absolutely bugged when used with Bows, but I'm not entirely sure about 2h or DW. Either way, it hits harder than Crushing Weapon does, and has a 2 second longer window of opportunity to line up with burst, which obviously makes it much easier to pre-buff with. And that's what Stamina Sorcerer can do that other Stamina classes can't (at least not nearly as easily and reliably); pre-buff, then jump into a fight and 1-shot someone before escaping and setting up to do it all over again. And again, and again. A lot of builds simply are not able to chase and kill a Stam Sorc who isn't awful at the game (especially if they run Ball of Lightning).

Crystal Weapon also won't have its damage reduced by Major Evasion or Medium Armor passives, and is the easiest and most reliable delayed burst ability to line up with a medium attack + Vateshran 2h proc + other potential procs + off-GCD stun if using Dizzying Swing. There's no need to worry about a Blastbones getting CC'd, LOS'd, confused by terrain, etc...Nor do you have to worry about the telegraph of Subterranean Assault causing someone to counter-stun, be blocking ahead of time, etc...That's not to say that Stamina Warden and Stamina Necromancer are bad, because they 100% absolutely are not. But in some ways Stamina Sorcerer is just as good or better, and really has been for a while now, even if some people haven't caught on yet (or just don't like the typical playstyle, which is fair).

The crystal weapon bug has been fixed along with the 2 other bugs stamsorc has benefited from.

Dovahmiim

I thought I was crazy when I noticed that stamsorcs seemed to be absolute top meta, interesting to see I'm not the only one seeing this. This was a pretty accurate breakdown of imbalances atm, while stamsorc is the all round top pick for OW cyro smallscale/1vX, I'm not entirely convinced this a bad thing. Every class has their niche, mag is far weaker than stam atm but offers more in the way of group healing and support. Now that proc carries are gone, all mag classes aside from magsorc have found themself with a largely incomplete offense toolkit, especially for 1vX, and a far weaker defense toolkit in outnumbered fights.

The points on major evasion definitely hold weight, as that buff more or less counters magden/magcro/magplar, I think all mag builds would happily trade annulment for a magicka costing Evasion skill.

It would be nice if mag builds could gain the option of being even half as good as stam currently are for 1vx/smallscale, but at the cost of their group utility, because I definitely see issues arising if mag was as busted easy offensively as stam is, but with the ally healing power of a magplar or something.

wheem_ESO

Dovahmiim wrote: »

I thought I was crazy when I noticed that stamsorcs seemed to be absolute top meta, interesting to see I'm not the only one seeing this. This was a pretty accurate breakdown of imbalances atm, while stamsorc is the all round top pick for OW cyro smallscale/1vX, I'm not entirely convinced this a bad thing. Every class has their niche, mag is far weaker than stam atm but offers more in the way of group healing and support. Now that proc carries are gone, all mag classes aside from magsorc have found themself with a largely incomplete offense toolkit, especially for 1vX, and a far weaker defense toolkit in outnumbered fights.

The points on major evasion definitely hold weight, as that buff more or less counters magden/magcro/magplar, I think all mag builds would happily trade annulment for a magicka costing Evasion skill.

It would be nice if mag builds could gain the option of being even half as good as stam currently are for 1vx/smallscale, but at the cost of their group utility, because I definitely see issues arising if mag was as busted easy offensively as stam is, but with the ally healing power of a magplar or something.

I've seen Stamina players' Echoing Vigor ticks crit me for over 3k in no-CP Battlegrounds, and that's without having Major or Minor Vitality up (not sure about them having Mending or not). It's still too early to say for sure, but it's quite possible that we'll see a return to the days of Stamina groups dodge rolling around and keeping up multiple stacks of Vigor, perhaps with 1 Magicka dude tagging along on a dedicated healing build. So far, the Mag-Stam gap in Battlegrounds seems bigger than ever.

BohnT2 wrote: »

The crystal weapon bug has been fixed along with the 2 other bugs stamsorc has benefited from.

Good. I knew about Ravager, but hadn't noticed Unfathomable Darkness or Crystal Weapon fixes.

Chilly-McFreeze

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Now that proc carries are gone, all mag classes aside from magsorc have found themself with a largely incomplete offense toolkit,

And yet ITT we're witnessing how

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Stamina/Magicka imbalances, and Stam Sorc's overpoweredness specifically, aren't limited to no-proc Cyrodiil. One "medium attack" from a Stamina Sorcerer in BGs can result in simultaneous damage from:

• Medium Attack
• Crystal Weapon
• Frenzied Momentum (Vateshran 2h proc)
• Way of Fire proc
• Ashen Grip proc
• Weapon Enchant proc

a triple proc setup gets hold against a class that contributes whooping

wheem_ESO wrote: »

4-4.5k damage

Tremendous.

L_Nici

Imagine complaining about Stamsorcs. Stamsorc can be hard to fight against if you don't know what you are doing sure, but it is by no means a full carry like Magsorc, Stamcro or Stamden.

Crystal Weapon is insanely clunky to use (not to mention a weaker copy of DKs Molten Weapons for heavy attacks and Empowering Chains for medium and light which stay for a timer and not just 1 hit and that Psijik version) since it has to be spammed after every single attack, which breaks up better possible combos, so almost no one uses it. Dark Deal provides awesome sustain, but has a casttime unlike many other heals of other classes, once interrupted you are defenseless for 1 full second.
Streak and Ball of Lightning are both very nice skills but the use is limited since they are magicka. You have no burst heal, you have no purge, you have no defensive passives aside Hurricanes 5k Armor which any other class gets as well in many ways. The only skill unique on Stamsorc is actually Bound Armaments, nothing bad to say about them I love Bound Armaments.

Anything else Stamsorc uses usually comes from Weapon lines, so in theory any class could use them just the same and in most cases even better. What I would give to get rid of that stupid D Swing for a decent class spammable that is reliable...

Thraben

Do we.... do we get our VERY OWN Nerf StamSorc thread? After all these years?

Let's be no longer the sidekicks of the Nerf- MagSorc- thread! We need our own memes instead of just using the MagSorc ones! I could not find one where I streak from the outpost''s roof into my doom, but streaking into a wall/ rock/tree might be sufficient for now.






StamSorcs perform well, but I don't see them close to a StamNecro, or a StamWarden. They could be the best of the rest, though, ahead of the MagSorcs. But only time will tell. It's much too early to draw definite conclusions. A lot of the things this thread's creator has said about Magicka versus Stamina are valid points, though.

StarOfElyon

I think the stamsorc burst is easy to avoid if you see them before they see you. Killing them is where I'm having trouble. Once they get in execute they streak away and reset the fight. I'm not mad at the skill but I think it's too easy to abuse (like the Templar purge) if resources never seem to be an issue. Balance streak and stamsorcs will be fine.

wheem_ESO

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

a triple proc setup gets hold against a class that contributes whooping

show previous quotes

wheem_ESO wrote: »

4-4.5k damage

Tremendous.

That 4-4.5k damage is when wearing all procs in no-CP and up against non-glass cannon resists. It's also just a part of the simplistic burst combo, not the only thing the class has available to it; #1 mobility, #1 sustain, close to #1 anti-stealth toolkit, Bound Armaments, and Negate are all worth mentioning. Besides, as I already said, that's one example of a Stam Sorc burst build, not the only way for it to be viable.

L_Nici wrote: »

Imagine complaining about Stamsorcs. Stamsorc can be hard to fight against if you don't know what you are doing sure, but it is by no means a full carry like Magsorc, Stamcro or Stamden.

Crystal Weapon is insanely clunky to use (not to mention a weaker copy of DKs Molten Weapons which stay for a timer and not just 1 hit and that Psijik version) since it has to be spammed after every single attack, which breaks up better possible combos, so almost no one uses it. Dark Deal provides awesome sustain, but has a casttime unlike many other heals of other classes, once interrupted you are defenseless for 1 full second.
Streak and Ball of Lightning are both very nice skills but the use is limited since they are magicka. You have no burst heal, you have no purge, you have no defensive passives aside Hurricanes 5k Armor which any other class gets as well in many ways. The only skill unique on Stamsorc is actually Bound Armaments, nothing bad to say about them I love Bound Armaments.

Anything else Stamsorc uses usually comes from Weapon lines, so in theory any class could use them just the same and in most cases even better. What I would give to get rid of that stupid D Swing for a decent class spammable that is reliable...

Crystal Weapon can be a spammable, sure, but that's not really the best way to use it, especially on a non-proc build. Instead, try a combo of; Crystal Weapon (without light attack weaving) -> Dizzying Swing -> Medium Attack -> Dawnbreaker.

More and more people are waking up to how much of a powerhouse Stamina Sorcerer currently is (and has actually been for a while now). Unless someone is just trying to stand in the midst of a big brawl without actually using any of the class' mobility, I don't see how they can think that the current iteration of Stam Sorc is anything less than amazing (at least for no-CP...I don't really do CP-enabled PvP so I guess things might be different there).

Dunning_Kruger

Stam sorcs are popular because most people are bad at positioning and sustain. Streak and dark deal help you if you are bad at those two game fundamentals. So naturally it elevates below and average gamers to above average. But in reality the class is not that phenomenal. And people who do phenomenally well on them generally have the two fundamentals mentioned mastered as well as lining up burst.

jhharvest

I don't think I'm seeing any stam sorcs in NoCP. It's stamcro and magsorc all the way.

Armethius

This guy is so right I just researched this for an hour.

The medium armor "Major Evasion" skills and abilities are OP to the max. There is absolutely nothing magicka related that compares to the dizzy swinging, leap spamming, stam based, skillless fanbois.

WreckfulAbandon

BohnT2 wrote: »

The crystal weapon bug has been fixed along with the 2 other bugs stamsorc has benefited from.

How about the moving negate bug?

monkiie

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I think the stamsorc burst is easy to avoid if you see them before they see you. Killing them is where I'm having trouble. Once they get in execute they streak away and reset the fight. I'm not mad at the skill but I think it's too easy to abuse (like the Templar purge) if resources never seem to be an issue. Balance streak and stamsorcs will be fine.

Stam sorc burst is not easy to avoid. Crystal weapon has no audio queue and its animation is easy to cancel giving you almost nothing to go on. Combine this with the fact that they can decide when and how the ability procs within a 4 second window whereas other delayed bursts such as shalks, deep breath, haunting curse, all go off at a specified time after cast, makes this ability very hard to play around.

The problem with killing these sorcs is, without procs, many classes specifically magicka ones, cannot kill stamina medium armor specs with major evasion. Mag templar and warden for example, must use aoe abilities to deal damage (deep fissure, northern storm, jabs, radial sweep). This is exacerbated by the new armor changes where medium armor gets even more aoe dmg reduction from dodge rolling (lmao why?) and light armor specs take more damage from martial attacks. Not even taking into account how overpowered stam sorcerer is, certain mag classes cannot fight against any stam class with major evasion in this "no proc" environment.

monkiie

L_Nici wrote: »

Imagine complaining about Stamsorcs. Stamsorc can be hard to fight against if you don't know what you are doing sure, but it is by no means a full carry like Magsorc, Stamcro or Stamden.

Crystal Weapon is insanely clunky to use (not to mention a weaker copy of DKs Molten Weapons which stay for a timer and not just 1 hit and that Psijik version) since it has to be spammed after every single attack, which breaks up better possible combos, so almost no one uses it. Dark Deal provides awesome sustain, but has a casttime unlike many other heals of other classes, once interrupted you are defenseless for 1 full second.
Streak and Ball of Lightning are both very nice skills but the use is limited since they are magicka. You have no burst heal, you have no purge, you have no defensive passives aside Hurricanes 5k Armor which any other class gets as well in many ways. The only skill unique on Stamsorc is actually Bound Armaments, nothing bad to say about them I love Bound Armaments.

Anything else Stamsorc uses usually comes from Weapon lines, so in theory any class could use them just the same and in most cases even better. What I would give to get rid of that stupid D Swing for a decent class spammable that is reliable...

The main point of the post is that the disparity between magicka vs stamina classes is at its peak and has only grown because of the testing and armor changes. Major evasion AND the new medium armor passives completely and utterly counter ENTIRE classes like magwarden and mag templar. With that said, stam sorc is just the biggest abuser at the moment and should be looked at.

Crystal weapon is not clunky to use if you use it correctly. Crystal weapon lasts 4 seconds (longer than other delayed bursts such as shalks, deep breath, curse), will proc whenever YOU want it to go off between 1-4 seconds, and procs on light/heavy/medium attacks, reduces armor by 1k, and grants 10% reduced cost for your next non-ultimate ability. You can easily combine this skill with a fully charged heavy attack, ele weapon, dizzying swing, rending slashes, snipe, silver shards, dawnbreaker, bound armaments, etc... to completely one shot a target with almost no visible or audio queue. I'm also not sure what you mean in your post by its "a weaker copy of DKs Molten Weapons which stay for a timer and not just 1 hit and that Psijik version" when molten weapon is a major brutality/sorcery buff for dk's?

monkiie

relentless_turnip wrote: »

show previous quotes

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Stamina/Magicka imbalances, and Stam Sorc's overpoweredness specifically, aren't limited to no-proc Cyrodiil. One "medium attack" from a Stamina Sorcerer in BGs can result in simultaneous damage from:

• Medium Attack
• Crystal Weapon
• Frenzied Momentum (Vateshran 2h proc)
• Way of Fire proc
• Ashen Grip proc
• Weapon Enchant proc

Even with full proc sets and against a non-glass cannon opponent, the Crystal Weapon can hit for around 4-4.5k damage, with Frenzied Momentum being roughly the same. And all of that damage comes with 0 in-combat GCDs being required, so it can obviously either be stacked with a simultaneous Dawnbreaker, or come immediately after a Dizzying Swing or unblockable Streak stun. Literal 1-shots are very much a thing, but even if you do survive their initial burst + stun, all from a singular GCD, they'll have execute(s) available - including one that's AOE and undodgeable.

The burst in no-CP Cyrodiil might not be as high right now, without Vate 2h and the other burst procs, but it's still going to be extremely powerful. And some other classes will be even less able to retaliate without procs, should they survive the first burst attempt.

With significantly increased healing and baseline stats, proc-DOTs have been pretty heavily devalued, which makes this silly first-person-shooter style of gameplay even more powerful. Coincidentally, Stamina Sorcerer's wholly unmatched mobility makes it stronger still.

This is a complaint about a specific build. The only thing unique to stamsorc is crystal weapon. This could be recreated by any class using elemental weapon.

Mobility and sustain is all a stamsorc has. Crystal is good, but no better than any other spammable. It is used as delayed burst, but isn't as good as any other classes delayed burst.

Stamsorc has crap healing and in no cp tests it is good, but not as good as stamcro, stamden or magsorc.

Crystal weapon is better than every other spammable because its so versatile and overloaded. Have you even looked at what crystal weapon does compared to ele weapon? Judging by your take that any class can use crystal weapon by using ele weapon is a clear no to me. Stam sorc always had mobility and sustain but now they also have the most versatile delayed burst AND medium armor/stamina builds are heavily overperforming compared to magicka builds because of the new armor changes and no proc environment.

StaticWave

monkiie wrote: »

show previous quotes

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I think the stamsorc burst is easy to avoid if you see them before they see you. Killing them is where I'm having trouble. Once they get in execute they streak away and reset the fight. I'm not mad at the skill but I think it's too easy to abuse (like the Templar purge) if resources never seem to be an issue. Balance streak and stamsorcs will be fine.

Stam sorc burst is not easy to avoid. Crystal weapon has no audio queue and its animation is easy to cancel giving you almost nothing to go on. Combine this with the fact that they can decide when and how the ability procs within a 4 second window whereas other delayed bursts such as shalks, deep breath, haunting curse, all go off at a specified time after cast, makes this ability very hard to play around.

The problem with killing these sorcs is, without procs, many classes specifically magicka ones, cannot kill stamina medium armor specs with major evasion. Mag templar and warden for example, must use aoe abilities to deal damage (deep fissure, northern storm, jabs, radial sweep). This is exacerbated by the new armor changes where medium armor gets even more aoe dmg reduction from dodge rolling (lmao why?) and light armor specs take more damage from martial attacks. Not even taking into account how overpowered stam sorcerer is, certain mag classes cannot fight against any stam class with major evasion in this "no proc" environment.

It has a visual cue which helps you identify if the sorc has the ability or not. The animation isn't easy to cancel either. It's not like other spammables that you can block cancel. The only 2 ways to cancel CWep is by bar swapping and roll dodging, both of which give you plenty of times and cues to block the incoming damage.

[snip]

[Edited for Baiting]