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ZOS's decision on procs and how I think they should go forward

Joy_Division
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I know ZOS is trying. I do not agree with the methods they are attempting to improve performance, but I will acknowledge and appreciate the commitment. Even if I think it was a mistake, I do believe their decision to extend the no proc conditions was made in good faith because there was a lot of feedback indicating that many players did like the gameplay. But sometimes when you try too hard, it can make things worse, like stripping a screw.

I have an ESO friend that I’ve known for over 6 years. I never once heard them once get angry or even raise their voice at either the game’s performance or losing a PvP encounter. I really can’t. This person has the patience of a Saint and is the type who’d drive 100 miles in a snowstorm on a weeknight to do a favor. I know this because they did it for me. That they have serious doubts and legit frustrations over this decision and the future path laid out by ZOS is only the tip of the proverbial iceberg of the feelings of many in the community.

Revert the no proc decision Quickly. It doesn’t sound like it is possible to “turn off” the dozen or so overbearing sets, so this is the lesser of two evils. I do not need to repeat what many people have said in the past 72 hours. Their reasoning is compelling, powerful, and undeniable. I’ll add one more reason: ZOS’s own philosophy that game systems should be consistent. For years, we have asked ZOS to separate PvP from PvE and for years, ZOS has given us the same answer: since their game embodies both PvE and PvP, the gameplay and mechanics should be the same so players can make a smooth and seamless transition between them. Indeed, there were players submitting bug reports during this past test because they thought their armor wasn’t working! ZOS’s decision will mean that even PvP modes will be different; somehow procs are fine in Battlegrounds and IC, but not in Cyrodiil. How is it even possible to balance that? I don’t like proc dominated gameplay, but this is not the way to go: invalidating 95% of the gear we paid real money to use and just making everything confusing. Do what you’ve got to do, but please revert this as quickly as possible.

Hire a PvP developer Asking Brian to lead combat and PvP is completely unfair. Nobody can possibly do that. How is Cyrodiil supposed to improve or be reformed if there isn’t someone whose primary responsibility is to monitor it, to think of how to enhance it, and to keep abreast of the many changes that happen from patch to patch? Not going to happen. And that’s what’s so frustrating. I and many other people pay $15 a month and it stinks knowing that the hundreds of dollars over the past few years have gone from my wallet to expansion after chapter after expansion that was dedicated to PvE. That PvE stuff we can’t even use for 6 months! Look at one amazing example of the level of the detail that goes into these many PvE zones, while Cyrodiil is stuck with a static map that is flawed because 90% of it never gets used.
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Moreover, having no PvP developer while still making sweeping and significant changes, however well intended, has been counterproductive and has unfailingly upset a large portion of the community. This is going to happen every time in the future if ZOS continues to operate in this manner. Brian already has his hands full so nothing can be added. Whatever changes that do happen will invariably involve taking something away, which means some part of the community will hate them. Here are the last three big changes ZOS has made to Cyrodiil:
  • Faction locks: Many liked it. Many hated it.
  • Group size 12 & Group only heals: Many liked it. Many hated it.
  • No procs: Many liked it. Many hated it.
Isn’t an update supposed to generate excitement and interest in the vast majority of the player-base? That’s what generally happens when people have designated responsibilities and resources are allocated to adding new content and augmenting/improving systems in need of reform. That hasn’t been happening and will not with ZOS’s current model.

Address the root cause for the complaints about proc sets. I understand there’s not an easy solution. As much as people say have them scale with stats or disallow multiple procs, that’s got to be tested and coded. It also doesn’t sound like it is possible to disable the dozen or so overbearing proc sets either (the ideal temporary solution). When I said I enjoyed the gameplay without procs, it was more like a plea for classes and skills to once again be exciting and effective options. If ZOS feels that eliminating 90% of the armor sets in the game will make Cyrodiil more interesting or that's what we wanted, then that's all that needs to be said just how over-nerfed and neutered class and skill options have become.

We have had three long “metas” in which proc based gear has been overbearing. Why hasn’t this lesson been learned? And why must these persist long after the issue has been identified? I know some of the worst offenders have prompted concerns during PTS cycles. This needs to get nipped in the bud. And why the long wait until after an update to adjust problems? I strongly believe it is a mistake for ZOS to only make adjustments during updates and I’ll go into detail in the spoiler below
I won’t even bring up how many other MMOs somehow manages to do this. It seems to me that they do this because it’s actually more efficient in the long run. I took about a 6-month break from ESO just after the COVID pandemic hit because of my frustration with proc sets. Here we are, one year later, and proc sets are such a problem that ZOS implemented a decision eliminate 95% of the gear sets from Cyrodiil. It’s crystal clear the update-only-4-times-a-year method cannot address these sorts of concerns. It’s because ZOS is asking us to test new huge additions – trials, entire new systems like CP, many PVE quests, bugs, etc. – that old concerns just fall through the cracks. For years, we have complained that hardly anything gets changed during the PTS and this is likely why: there’s just way too much on ZOS’s plate. Because we’re still complaining about Crimson Twilight 6 months later, not enough focus goes into the new content, which no doubt accounts for bumpy releases. The PTS process would go so much smoother if ZOS followed the already established practice of addressing imbalances and bugs in-between updates. Moreover, oppressive procs won’t last for year and there isn’t any need to waste more time and upset a large portion of the community by making the sort of decision to remove proc sets from PvP. Win. Win. Win. Please change how the game is updated

Serious consideration needs to be given to restoring what our classes were once able to do. We wouldn’t wear multiple proc sets in the first place if we had confidence that our class kits were up to the job. Before I took a break from ESO, I remember there was this commitment to “class identity.” I come back, and not only is that gone, but also the patch notes were full of even more nerfs. I will acknowledge that the PVP community has flooded the forums with complaints, but the reason I pay money to professional game designers is that they are supposed to have the knowledge and experience to filter out the vast majority of “learn to play” issues from legitimate balance concerns. It is a very rare thing that I see a player I know is top notch and has a ton of experience advocate for a class nerf. Very rare. And it is very disconcerting that the two classes that have been added as DLC – more specifically stamina Necromancer and stamina Warden – are near consensus top tier, whereas the four original classes struggle (though sorcerers less so). ZOS’s goal should be more than just improving performance. It should also be actually making Cyrodiil PvP fun to play. On that note,

Instead of trying to reduce server calculations – which invariable will upset a significant portion of the community – seek to spread out those calculations such that they happen in different places at different times – which will upset nobody and make Cyrodiil more fun to play for everybody. Yes, this is a long-term solution, but that is precisely what the aim should be. Every short-term test that has been tried has not worked and were heading for a year of PvP (Sept 2020 – Sept 2021) that will be played under conditions that upset a lot of people. Don’t we remember 3 or 4 years ago when CP was temporarily disabled – at a time when CP had more bloat in calculations – and on ESO Live we heard that did not have a discernible impact on performance. The last test run in 2020: group size 6, no cross heals, AoE cooldown, scaling AOE costs also had no discernible impact. The reasons for Cyrodiil’s performance woes have very deep roots. We’re banging our heads against the wall here. I don’t even know what we learned from all these tests.
Now that we’ve had time to digest a lot of data and information, we have a better idea of next steps and the work needed to produce noticeable improvements to performance in Cyrodiil. This work is complex and will take a fair amount of time and effort. We are committed to improving the PvP experience, though, and we have already begun scheduling out this work. Please note that none of the scheduled work will implement any of the changes we made on PC during past tests, and at this time we don’t plan to run any additional tests.
What is this data and information? What is the better idea of next steps? What sort of work is getting scheduled out? If that work involves none of the changes from the past tests, how does ZOS know what work to schedule out? If all of the tests that were implemented did not produce the desired results, I don’t understand the confidence being exuded here such that ZOS does not feel the need for further tests.

There is nothing specific here. I’m not doubting the commitment and I accept that it is complex issue. But there is nothing concrete to grasp onto here, just the assurance that even though every previous test didn’t work, ZOS nevertheless has a plan. I fear the proverbial cure will be worse than the disease.

How to spread out those calculations? Let’s examine all the methods that ZOS has tried in the past: Asking us nicely, making bridges & gates destroyable, mass AoE damage via Vicious Death and Proximity Detonation, armor vendor in towns, removing AoE Caps, adding an additional outpost per alliance, having different campaign scoring mechanics, high AP bonuses for capturing resources, reducing group size to 12, making keep strength tied to resources, and removing cross healing are the ones that come to my mind. None of these had any effect because none of them address the primary reason why we stack: there is literally no PvP related reason to go to 90% of the map and a fair number of PvP reasons to go to the other 10% are unrewarding and mostly a horse riding simulator. The only method that tried to tackle this underlying issue was the new outposts. However, because they are so remote and nothing actually happens with their capture, there isn’t a compelling reason to go there

Consider what originally ZOS intended for “small scale” PvP, resources. Often, there are periods of stagnation when an Alliance will go extended periods without having any fight on the map. Here’s one example from Greyhost near then end of February at about 7:30 PM.
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Pop locked across the board and only one fight happening. That’s the longstanding issue in a nutshell. What am I and the 20 AD twiddling their thumbs at Nickel and another 20 twiddling their thumbs at BRK supposed to do? Whatever the zone generals may suggest, that’s nice, but for 7 years we’ve twiddled our thumbs. The Ash milegate is smashed. Am I supposed to ride my horse all the way around the Priory milegate to and capture Ash Farm? Just so the 20 DC twiddling their thumbs can zerg me down on my slow templar? The alternative is to go to a keep further away – a longer horse ride – so there are only 3 or 4 DC twiddling their thumbs. OK, fair enough. But this is only a realistic option for a small percentage of ESO’s population that can fight 3 or 4 people and even have a shot. And even if they do win, the hourly update means the Alliance score stays the same and the player isn’t rewarded with any loot at that resource. That’s a whole lot of horse riding for the sole purpose of finding a personal challenge. So guess what the AD at Nickel did?
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Siege a destroy milegate. Yes, a person screamed in zone chat for everyone to go around Priory and hit Ash from the flank. It happened a half an hour later. It’s pointless to do what Cyrodiil is 100% focused on, capturing keeps, without being in a group/zerg/pick your term. So that’s what we do.

EP didn’t have it easier because there were 50 DC at Arrius that also were twiddling their thumbs at the only obvious place on the map that would get any action. Who wants to ride all the way to Harlun’s to attack an undefended remote outpost? I wouldn’t either. They banged their heads on against Arrius for a good 40 minutes.

We need the map to be vibrant, dynamic, and full of interesting mechanics to entice us to engage with it. This can only happen if there is a PvP developer and particular attention is paid to the gameplay patterns of Cyrodiil. Years ago, I wrote some suggestions on how to do this and, to my surprise, ZOS did actually implement some of them. Indeed, a few were almost exactly what I suggested (38, 39, 42, 54, 65, 71, 89, 90). This tells me that ZOS does try. This is good, but this only happened when we had Brian full time PvP. And he needs help; he was only able to do some of the minor suggestions. Can we get the art folks who build the wonderful new PvE zones to reform a map we’ve all known that needed it for years?

Make the map impact the Alliance scoring all the time; not just once an hour such that 95% of our actions are irrelevant on the scoreboard. Make the Alliance war actually worth winning. It is more profitable from me to farm in Betnikh for 30 minutes than win a PvP campaign for 30 days. We’ve known this for years and it’s not changed. Because there is no PvP team. Make the map have immediate rewards for going somewhere and doing something. Looting a Columbine supply cart. Gathering pieces for an ancient artifact the player can use once getting them all (and not having a flashing icon screaming for the entire map to congregate at one spot!). Acquiring strategic resources the player can gather to fulfill the “change one of the 15 burning spellweave axes into an Inferno Staff” quest. There is so much amazing detail on the Cyrodiil map, it’s a shame that it’s not being used even to a fraction of its potential. It can be done, but like anything else, it will take time and effort. It’s been seven years of players twiddling their thumbs waiting for swords to appear on the map and then everyone riding to them.

Make it happen. I know this sounds like pie in the sky dreaming, especially in light of ZOS’s end of the year admission that they were too ambitious in 2020 development. It’s not dreaming. It’s an acknowledgement of the reality that grand aims and commitments to improving Cyrodiil PvP isn’t realistic while the lead combat developer is so over-burdened that we have these proc sets still in place that led to the controversial Friday decision that upset so many people. Let’s learn from the proverbial lessons of history. I know ZOS has tried. I know ZOS does care. If this game is so popular, MMO of the year and all that, we’ll stay with ESO, pay the $15 sub, buy some Crown Crates if the quantity of new content is lessened in favor of improving the quality of the existing product. 2020 concluded with ZOS acknowledging their “aggressive development” led to “game instability, far too many bugs, and very rough update launches” that were “unacceptable.” Break this cycle. We’ve already went through one and a half months of a bugged Orbs, broken synergies that allowed an entire raid to crush a single Nova, and are now we are staring in the face of 6 months of a decision out of the blue that bars us from using 95% of the gear we paid for, to say nothing of our preorders. All I am saying is take a step back and follow the lessons on that 2020 retrospective written by Rich Lambert.

Can we all just imagine what if ZOS undertook what I am suggesting here say back in 2015 when it was clear Cyrodiil’s map and gameplay patterns needed reform? Much of this would already be done! People may have actually be doing something other than faction stacking at the next keep and ZOS would not have to agonize in making that Friday decision that they knew would upset a ton of people. That had to be tough. I totally understand that. If we are going to commit to Cyrodiil, let’s do this in a way that at least tries to avoids making those divisive decisions that upset the very people they seek to help?
  • Jaraal
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    Very well said.

    And it's curious that they actually came out and said that they have been overreaching with the ambitious schedule, and that things were going to slow down in the future so that they could address the issues in a more timely manner.

    But welcome to Gates of Oblivion! Could they have possibly turned the game on it's head in a more dramatic fashion? If this is a preview of the upcoming radical, spur of the moment yo-yo changes we have in store for the rest of the year, I fear for the long term health and sustainability of this game.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
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  • Urzigurumash
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    We need at least 5 milli in the daily rewards to be able to test our skills in an equal environment against people who can afford Gold Agility Jewels, Heroism Pots, Takeaway Broth, etc.

    Or, all of our gear could be made functional within the restricted environment, by giving all Heavy / Medium / Light conditional 5 pieces the same bonus as Plague Doctor / Draugr Hulk / Crafty Alfiq, and my making every Arena weapon function as an Agility / Willpower / Endurance weapon according to its type.

    It would be an incredible improvement for many players who might not have access to gear, gold, or transmute crystals, or even be aware of the new restricted environment. It would require no adaptation whatsoever from anybody, while allowing the test to be conducted.

    Edited by Urzigurumash on March 8, 2021 6:26PM
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
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  • TheCaptainJosh
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    This is a very thoughtful and well-put-together post. Sadly it will fall on deaf ears.

    There is so much wrong with this decision I don't even know where to start. With the change this means that over the next ~six months, the golden vendor in cyrodiil will sell sets that, for the most part, will be unusable in cyrodiil. All of the sets in the rewards of the worth mail are somehow even more useless than they were before. The devs stated that the cross healing tests did not warrant significant changes, which is why they reverted it. If cross healing was not the cause of the lag, then why are group sizes not back to 24 instead of 12? As a pvper, what is the point of doing buying and playing DLC content if I cannot use any of the sets released? Everyone knows which sets are overperforming. But instead of adjusting the game with a scalpel, you bring out a chainsaw? I will never understand why the dev team seems to address problems in such a generalizing way.

    And that's only a piece of the problem. Where is the transparency? After the "year of performance" we just had, isn't it a good idea to let your community know what exactly the dev team is planning? Who's to say that the code introduced in update 31 won't cripple pvp even further? What does ZOS have to gain from keeping players out of the loop?

    To address the post-

    I wholeheartedly agree that something needs to be done to Cyrodiil itself. The map is far too large for only a handful (at most) of fights happening at any given time. There is very little to no incentive to go anywhere save for the large swords on the map. As I've heard it, this "faction-stacking" that occurs as a result is a big part of the lag. But nothing is being done to address faction-stacking. With the cross healing changes back, and no vicious death to quasi-combat large groups, it's going to be worse than ever for the foreseeable future. Just a bunch of riding across the map for five minutes and dying to a zerg unless I'm in my own zerg.

    I also believe that a lot of these overtuned sets were introduced in lieu of class balance. Before their removal, pvp was a battle not of skill, but who's proc could go off first. With proc sets however, it does not matter what skills you are running, only whether or not you can click the left mouse button reliably. Sadly, the classes who were in great standing before the proc meta only became even stronger with procs. Sure, there were some specs who became bearable with procs (magnecro, magblade) but now that their crutches have been taken away, what are magcros and magblades supposed to do now? There has been zero mention of significant class balance, and surely anyone who has stepped in cyrodiil recently can attest to the fact that a procless stamcro or stamden is much better than a procless magcro or magblade.

    I know that the dev team is trying their best with what they have. I know the pandemic is making it hard on the team. I'm truly thankful for their work. All I'm asking for is a vision. Where are we headed? What can we look forward to? From class balance to cyrodiil, it seems like there is no focus. No direction. Just-

    "let's test this for a few weeks."

    "Oh, you've been through several tests already, we know you're tired of them."

    "Guess what, even though none of our tests resulted in any mentionable performance gains, we're going to leave the very last test on for at least six more months (even though performance was worse during this test). See you in Q3!"

    How am I supposed to feel about content I care about being put off for six months?
    AugustusGray
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  • FENGRUSH
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    Joy Division has spoken! I'm not thrilled either. People are mostly yelling at each other about being Carrie's by proc sets and real skill will come out now. The reality is, people that knew how to maneuver a meta will still do it, so not much will change there.

    Theres also a part of them possibly doing this to keep things simpler during a time where pvp combat will literally be in a beta scenario having changed base stats and CP, which will also change the balance of things.

    All in all, people wanted the proc sets, 90% of which were done in DLCs in the past year, to be nerfed. They've received an unbelievably higher amount of feedback on things like nerfing malacath than they did feedback on this 3 week test. Complaints shared over a year. So why would they make this change and not balance those concerns sooner?

    Theres some real questionable decisions being made in this regard, and not much understanding of the future as you noted. The timeline is hang tough for half a year. Many will not this time. New World isnt even an ideal or comparable combat system to ESO, but people are hungry for a future that isnt filled with confusing and upsetting decisions that seem to be made by people that have nothing in common with the people they PvP with.
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  • Urzigurumash
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    I also believe that a lot of these overtuned sets were introduced in lieu of class balance. Before their removal, pvp was a battle not of skill, but who's proc could go off first. With proc sets however, it does not matter what skills you are running, only whether or not you can click the left mouse button reliably.

    Of course proc sets resolve class imbalances - I don't think a single set in this list of 19 is something that's been popular on DKs or Templars over the years - but I believe the introduction of this extreme proc damage was intended to resolve the extreme TTK we experienced in 2019. I believe the better solution would have been to buff DoTs.

    Somebody with more knowledge of the mechanics of this game or a clearer memory of history may be able to correct me, but let's review:

    Starting after Elsweyr, the best balance patch in years in both PvE and PvP:

    DoTs overbuffed -> HoTs overbuffed -> DoTs overnerfed -> HoTs not nerfed at all -> Heals Meta, excessive TTK -> high damage procs introduced to resolve the excessive TTK -> proc meta -> All sets removed from PvP

    Rending Slashes make it into any PvE rotations these days?

    If you played in Heavy Armor in BGs during the DoT meta, you would know that unequivocally DoTs are the solution to the tank meta - they can't be blocked.
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
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  • Goregrinder
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    Just add a hard counter to procs, problem solved. Everything else has a hard counter (defile, fracture, purge, etc) let players who want training wheels wear proc sets, and let other players run counters to proc builds. Everyone wins.
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  • Urzigurumash
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    Yes Goregrinder I agree, please read my post and see if it makes sense to you with your knowledge of PvP and mechanics.

    However there is still no debuff to Healing Done besides the new Cowardice, and maybe Mangle for Self-Healing Done with HP-scaled heals, access to which is now increased with the new Bleed effect, but I can't remember if Mangle has that effect.

    Edited by Urzigurumash on March 8, 2021 8:12PM
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
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  • Faded
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    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    Theres also a part of them possibly doing this to keep things simpler during a time where pvp combat will literally be in a beta scenario having changed base stats and CP, which will also change the balance of things.

    That would fit their history, wouldn't it.

    I think six months with no procs will be good for the game and community, but it's not my game or my community. I've been on the fence all day about whether to jump back in. I think I'll stick with clear-cut PVP games that don't depress me.

    I don't know what voices you listen to Wheeler, but Joy_Division should be on the short list. glhf
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  • Minalan
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    I want to listen to Joy_Divison here closely, but the fact is that advocating for proc sets to come back means advocating for everything that wasn’t fun about PVP that made me quit.

    If you want to cater to the people who enjoyed being part of unkillable ball groups that run around enemy keeps for hours on end, put the proc sets back.

    If you want to cater to people whose idea of fun is stacking 40K health, 4K regen, and all their damage comes from armor sets, put the proc sets back.

    If you want to cater to solo tank builds that can’t be killed without multiple siege weapons, put the proc sets back.

    The game was so miserable and toxic before I did not pay or play. I do play now, because it’s fun without immortals in the game. The immortals are going to disagree, so make a separate proc campaign for them.
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  • Seraphayel
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    This is a good yet unnecessary overdramatized post. I agree on many points, but the sky isn’t falling if proc sets don’t work for some time.

    Could ZOS have handled it better? Absolutely. Could they have told us a bit earlier than three days before this change goes live what they’re planning to do? Absolutely.

    The communication regarding this topic was pretty poor and at least they should have had a specific thread announcing this and laying out their reasons more specific and what their exact steps are regarding this issue - I think they’re just not there yet and that’s why we haven’t gotten anything in that regard.

    6 months until U31 seems too long and right now I pretty much doubt they’ll keep them disabled until then. But I think it’s reasonable to expect them to have them turned off at least until U30 / Blackwood - as you said, they’re horrible at updating the game outside of the four patch cycles a year.
    Edited by Seraphayel on March 8, 2021 9:26PM
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
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  • AuraNebula
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    First and unrelated, I love your name and the band.

    Your post was well said and to the point. I got so excited for Gates of Oblivion. I thought since we were going back to Oblivion we would get a new PvP area of even a revamped version of Cyrodiil.

    If they even gave us small towns to add to the map that had an incentive to go there besides just taking keeps. Or add small towns around the keeps, with different types of vendors in different areas. Maybe one town has a banker, another town has a merchant, and another town has crafting tables. Whoever holds that keep also holds the town and only the alliance that holds it can use the resources.

    Or a king/queen keep separate from all the other keeps that gives you a double AP boost if you take it for an hour.

    I'm not a game developer but and I'm sure there are much better options they could implement that could help server stacking at one keep.
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  • kingsirdrmr
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    Minalan wrote: »
    I want to listen to Joy_Divison here closely, but the fact is that advocating for proc sets to come back means advocating for everything that wasn’t fun about PVP that made me quit.

    If you want to cater to the people who enjoyed being part of unkillable ball groups that run around enemy keeps for hours on end, put the proc sets back.

    The key being they made 'you' quit, not the majority of players. It doesn't have to be a for-or-against situation. Wanting build diversity or to use sets from expansions/DLC doesn't mean you have to love the current state of proc sets. Cyrodiil in general needs a solution that requires some real thought and can sustain its whole community for future patches instead of just swinging the pendulum all one way at a time like they have since Summerset.
    For the Queen! | PC/NA, Cyrodiil, IC, Quests, CP 2000+[*] Tyaminal-rabi | Khajiiti Sorceress [*] Vita-rabi | Khajiiti Warden werewolf[*] Dr Good-and-Sexy | Argonian Warden[*] the Southern Mare | Redguard Necromancer[*] Sally Two-Horns | Orsimer Nightblade
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  • Greasytengu
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    If they even gave us small towns to add to the map that had an incentive to go there besides just taking keeps. Or add small towns around the keeps, with different types of vendors in different areas. Maybe one town has a banker, another town has a merchant, and another town has crafting tables. Whoever holds that keep also holds the town and only the alliance that holds it can use the resources.

    Or a king/queen keep separate from all the other keeps that gives you a double AP boost if you take it for an hour.

    I'm not a game developer but and I'm sure there are much better options they could implement that could help server stacking at one keep.

    This may sound silly, but: Caravans.

    You escort some NPC's and their wagon on the roads from one keep to another. If the wagon has no defenders, or an enemy player is within X meters of the wagon it stops until either the enemy dies or runs back out of range or the defenders return. Enemy players can 'loot' the wagon and get an offensive tick if nobody is around to defend it, Allies have to escort it to a keep and they get a defensive tick, and much like regular offensive and defensive ticks, deaths within the wagon's radius will count towards the final tick. There could even be other bonuses to making these runs, like having a successful delivery to a flagged keep buff defenders.

    This would be more aimed at solo to smaller groups, but at the moment there isn't a whole lot for them to do other than take resources, ganking and zergsurfing.
    " I nEeD HeAlInG!!! "
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  • divnyi
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    DoTs overbuffed -> HoTs overbuffed -> DoTs overnerfed -> HoTs not nerfed at all -> Heals Meta, excessive TTK -> high damage procs introduced to resolve the excessive TTK -> proc meta -> All sets removed from PvP

    ^ this.

    Why we needed to nerf DoTs to deal x1.3 damage of a spammable when we had x2-x3 previously? Why not x1.5-1.8?

    I mean, DoT skill shouldn't do way less than proc dot.
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  • Jaraal
    Jaraal
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    Minalan wrote: »
    If you want to cater to the people who enjoyed being part of unkillable ball groups that run around enemy keeps for hours on end, put the proc sets back.

    If you want to cater to people whose idea of fun is stacking 40K health, 4K regen, and all their damage comes from armor sets, put the proc sets back.

    If you want to cater to solo tank builds that can’t be killed without multiple siege weapons, put the proc sets back.

    Nothing has changed, though.

    Today in Cyro I played my magsorc (half the players in no proc Cyro are sorcerers) and got my Kill 40 done in three minutes. I also played my 55k HP and 6k HP regen werewolf and ran around kiting and trolling 10 players until I got tired of it and went back in the keep. And this is all with "no proc" sets. And it's boring as hell!

    I've spent hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours farming different sets that I could theorycraft with. The most fun for me is testing out different combinations of gear, and coming up with builds that others don't run. The best part of it is when people whisper me asking about my builds. But I sucked it up and played along with the test because ZOS told me they needed data to see how procs affected the performance. And nobody would be happier than me if they use the data to make the game run smoother for everyone.

    What they didn't tell me is that they had a hidden agenda that they were going to spring on us out of the blue, before the test period was even over. If they had told me ahead of time that they were planning to deny me access to 95% of the gear I have worked so hard and spent so much to get for at least half a year, I would never have taken part in the "test."

    My Cyro playing time had dropped off during the test, and there's honestly no reason for me to increase it now. I'll probably do the minimum necessary to get my daily rucksack, and then log off. What's most disappointing to me is that there are no real alternatives, and ZOS knows it. If there were a competitive PvP AvAvA game out today, people would abandon this mess like rats from a sinking ship. But they know that if we want this type of gameplay.... they're the only gas station for the next 100 miles, and we'll pay to fill the tank, regardless of how much it costs or how they treat us.



    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
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  • Nagastani
    Nagastani
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    If you want to cater to the people who enjoyed being part of unkillable ball groups that run around enemy keeps for hours on end, put the proc sets back.

    If you want to cater to people whose idea of fun is stacking 40K health, 4K regen, and all their damage comes from armor sets, put the proc sets back.

    If you want to cater to solo tank builds that can’t be killed without multiple siege weapons, put the proc sets back.

    Nothing has changed, though.

    Today in Cyro I played my magsorc (half the players in no proc Cyro are sorcerers) and got my Kill 40 done in three minutes. I also played my 55k HP and 6k HP regen werewolf and ran around kiting and trolling 10 players until I got tired of it and went back in the keep. And this is all with "no proc" sets. And it's boring as hell!

    I've spent hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours farming different sets that I could theorycraft with. The most fun for me is testing out different combinations of gear, and coming up with builds that others don't run. The best part of it is when people whisper me asking about my builds. But I sucked it up and played along with the test because ZOS told me they needed data to see how procs affected the performance. And nobody would be happier than me if they use the data to make the game run smoother for everyone.

    What they didn't tell me is that they had a hidden agenda that they were going to spring on us out of the blue, before the test period was even over. If they had told me ahead of time that they were planning to deny me access to 95% of the gear I have worked so hard and spent so much to get for at least half a year, I would never have taken part in the "test."

    My Cyro playing time had dropped off during the test, and there's honestly no reason for me to increase it now. I'll probably do the minimum necessary to get my daily rucksack, and then log off. What's most disappointing to me is that there are no real alternatives, and ZOS knows it. If there were a competitive PvP AvAvA game out today, people would abandon this mess like rats from a sinking ship. But they know that if we want this type of gameplay.... they're the only gas station for the next 100 miles, and we'll pay to fill the tank, regardless of how much it costs or how they treat us.



    Yeah except that's the thing isn't it? Today they took away the proc sets ... all of them ... regardless of function.

    So what's to stop them now from taking away something else?
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  • Canned_Apples
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    Another option:
    Only allow free damage proc sets to deal damage to other people wearing free damage proc sets.
    Problem solved.
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  • mook-eb16_ESO
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    Actually what cyro map needs is a scoring system that stops factions who pvdoor the map from winning and instead the winning comes from actual pvp and whilst disincentivizing zergs.
    Edited by mook-eb16_ESO on March 10, 2021 2:19AM
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  • DoccEff
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    Very well said.

    Eso PvP has many problems. Overperforming proc-sets were just one of them.

    Still, for years, more and more proc-sets that NO ONE WAS ASKING FOR were implemented.
    It is incredible how much players are suddenly praising Zos for REMOVING that huge part of the game. That should really give the devs something to think of.
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  • IAmIcehouse
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    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    Theres some real questionable decisions being made in this regard, and not much understanding of the future as you noted. The timeline is hang tough for half a year. Many will not this time. New World isnt even an ideal or comparable combat system to ESO, but people are hungry for a future that isnt filled with confusing and upsetting decisions that seem to be made by people that have nothing in common with the people they PvP with.

    Of the three PVP guilds that I play with, two (and another that I frequently talk to) have pretty much declared disbanding, and the third sounds like a hopeless, "we'll give it another week or two." Six months is not a short period of time. It's not three-weeks bearing with tests for the sake of performance, it's a "let's find another game to and hope in six-months the old game is back". I'll probably be back--because I love the game and tend to get bored of other games fairly quickly. But frankly, everyone won't.

    But I don't know how to express how out-of-nowhere this decision feels. As soon as week-one of the PTS drops, you have people leveling new toons, grinding dungeons for gear, and spending god-knows-how-many hours theorycrafting. All that time has been wasted. Everyone has their own feelings about this change and they're all valid. It's obvious how I feel about it--but regardless, it's how this was decided and implemented that is the most frustrating.
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  • Firstmep
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    Very well written @Joy_Division !

    Pretty much sums up my thoughts, and i was planning to make a post just like this one.

    I am tired of ZOS' approach to trying to remove things from the game in order to improve performance.

    Meanwhile the actual place(cyrodiil) has largely remained unchanged since forever.

    Cyrodiil is vast, yet most of its population is concentrated in around the inner keeps, unless one alliance dominates, we dont see much action outside of that.

    This current test also removed some of the best tools to deal with large faction stacking zergs or large groups in general.

    Imho, they really need to move Brian to either full time balance or pvp dev, its clear he doesnt have the capacity to do both.

    The games balance has been atrocious since he took over, mind you its not his fault, its clear that he doesnt have the time to make a lot of small changes, so instead we end up with large sweeping changes, that are often making things worse.

    These new armor penalties and bonuses are a clear example: Its obvious that not a lot of thought went into them from a balance perspective.

    We were told the devs have big plans for ESO's future, having separate devs for separate leading roles is exactly what we need.

    This current extended proc test: Sorry but this is just a joke... One of the most fun aspects of this game is the theorycrafting and possibilities.

    Apart from Necromancer, we havent had any new combat related skill lines added since SUMMERSET, so the vast majority of theorycrafting is around sets, taking this aspect out of the game is completely insane.

    All this just to please a few loud people that think the only skill that should matter in pvp is being able to press skills in the right order, lol.

    Newsflash: lining up dizzy+shalk+db is not exactly difficult or skillful, sorry if i step on anyones toes.

    Yes there are some problem sets, that have made pvp balance kind of a joke, allowing people to run around with emperor levels of health and damage, and those aspects should be addressed, but to remove 90% of the sets? Come the heck on.

    I know a lot of console players are looking forward to this, heres a reality check for you guys out there:

    Factions stacks and zergs got much worse during this test, since while individual players werent as tanky as before, the tools to deal with large groups were also removed.

    And ppl wonder how the performance got worse without procsets XD.

    And heres the thing: Zos has made some pretty big strides to make stat based sets more balanced recently, and frankly, if we didnt have those 10-15 broken proc damage sets, most stat sets would actually be fairly balanced aganist one another.

    There are some outliers like Eternal vigor, but most sets are in a good place.

    Here is an example:

    Clever Alchemist vs Powerful Assault vs Seventh legion

    All three sets have largely similar overall power budgets, but all three sets accomplish different things,

    CA gives a burst of wpd/spd for a shorther duration, which is great if you can play around its cooldown.

    Seventh Legion gives a reasonable amount of wpd and health recovery, which makes it a great selfish set for prolonged fights or if you want to stay in the thick of things for longer periods.

    Powerful Assault doesnt have the hp recovery, but instead the wpd/spd is also granted to nearby allies.


    Overall stat sets are in a good place, and frankly if procsets were finally balanced, we could have much more variety in builds.

    As it stands we just went from a stale proc meta, to a stale stat meta.

    Stale being the operative word..

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  • WolfyRaps
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    @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_ConnorG, @ZOS_BrianWheeler please make this stiky.

    ZOS should hire this kind of players that know what they are talking about.
    Edited by WolfyRaps on March 10, 2021 10:09AM
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  • Alchimiste1
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    pvp has been great fun for me so far. I like the cp rework. people are dying when they leave themselves open. I don't miss procs. and there is still bgs or ic
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  • Alchimiste1
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    if they removed cross healing this would be near perfect
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  • WolfyRaps
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    @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_BrianWheeler are you reading this ? We would very much appreciate an official answer to this kind of well thought posts.
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