Some counter arguments to popular outcry against no proc Cyrodil

Dr_Ganknstein

StaticWave wrote: »

Hey I found @Dr_Ganknstein zerging the map down with 20 EPs. How convenient..

There were tons of AD, EP and DC and no lag. I didn't notice you probably because we fought tons of sorcs tonight. Had a blast though, died a lot but that was my own fault 🤣

PirateShaped

I understand many of the points of the no-proc crowd. Most of the arguments against proc sets are quite valid. However, what I’m genuinely curious of is why should all of these changes be made in Cyrodiil of all places?

Cyrodil has always been a trashbin and that’s what I like about it. If someone wants balanced, competitive and tournament-caliber PvP, I don’t know why they would expect that in a snake pit like cyrodiil. Aren’t IC and BG more geared toward this style of play?

I know I become one of the deplorables in this argument but I just want to throw out that I’ve never played a WW, don’t run any controversial sets, don’t run any arena items in PvP and don’t run mythics in PvP. That being said, I think if you play Cyrodiil for score and as a faction vs. faction game, these playstyles have their place.

I’ve done a lot of PvP over the years and grew stale on the same old stuff. When ESO came out, Cyrodiil offered something special, something I can’t get anywhere else. The more structured and balanced PvP can be found quite easily.

I just love the chaos of Cyrodiil. You see ridiculous things there. If I get 1-shot, zerged down, etc. I’m still having fun because that’s part of the show. If someone takes me down, they took me down and that’s that. We all have the same tools available to us. I don’t believe individual skill holds a great deal of weight in a place like Cyrodiil. At least not to the level that it is credited.

As for skill, I wouldn’t say ESO has a very high skill ceiling. It’s relatively simple PvP. LoS, placement, rotation and all that can really give you an edge but honestly, I think some people celebrate too little, too much. Regardless, I think individual skill only goes so far in Cyrodiil. Don’t get me wrong, it goes a long way but the best “1vXers” I know don’t always necessarily do much to help win a campaign.

Contrary to what people say, all builds have weaknesses and no one is unkillable. If you run the typical 1vx tower hero builds everyone is running, high-dmg proc burst and 50k+ health builds are going to screw up your plans a little bit. However, those builds have their own issues and things they are scared of. Build diversity and theorycraft do exist and within all the chaos there is a balance.

Where 1v1 is concerned, maybe proc is OP and there is imbalance but for me, 1v1 is not a focal point of Cyrodiil. If you enjoy running around resource towers Dswinging, block casting vigor and trading DBs in a ten minute LoS fest, that’s great and I support people playing however they wish. I’ve had my share of that in other games prior to ESO and it’s exciting but wouldn’t IC or BG be a better outlet? If it’s a matter of q or population, sure I understand that but that is more a reason to fix those two as opposed to watering down Cyrodiil to accommodate small scale competitive play.

I play solo Cyrodiil since beta and will be called a zergling here, which is fine but I think if you play Cyrodiil for score and objective, you see where proc sets support the balance of Cyrodiil. I realize though that a lot of players don’t care as much about the actual war within Cyrodiil and care more about individual encounters. Which is fine but why would you expect balanced small scale in a PvP area designed for large scale war?

Prospero_ESO

PirateShaped wrote: »

Cyrodil has always been a trashbin and that’s what I like about it. If someone wants balanced, competitive and tournament-caliber PvP, I don’t know why they would expect that in a snake pit like cyrodiil. Aren’t IC and BG more geared toward this style of play?

I would say if someone really wants a competitive pvp environment ESO is the wrong game to begin with. In a competitive environment, players are not driven by sets, procs, champion points whatever, everybody is on an even playground.

Disabling proc sets did not help with performance I think that is safe to say, so the initial intent ZOS had with this failed. The question is whether disabling most sets add something else to the experience. Proc sets in pvp where cancer a long time, this is not new, they got nerfed a while ago, now they are disabled. Imo this is only a band-aid kind of fix, the real problem is that ZOS seems to be unable or unwilling to design a 5 piece bonus for most sets that adds flavor but is not completely over the top. They should use their time now until the next update to rework the 5 piece bonus of the disabled sets.

xDeusEJRx

PirateShaped wrote: »

Where 1v1 is concerned, maybe proc is OP and there is imbalance but for me, 1v1 is not a focal point of Cyrodiil. If you enjoy running around resource towers Dswinging, block casting vigor and trading DBs in a ten minute LoS fest, that’s great and I support people playing however they wish. I’ve had my share of that in other games prior to ESO and it’s exciting but wouldn’t IC or BG be a better outlet? If it’s a matter of q or population, sure I understand that but that is more a reason to fix those two as opposed to watering down Cyrodiil to accommodate small scale competitive play.

I play solo Cyrodiil since beta and will be called a zergling here, which is fine but I think if you play Cyrodiil for score and objective, you see where proc sets support the balance of Cyrodiil. I realize though that a lot of players don’t care as much about the actual war within Cyrodiil and care more about individual encounters. Which is fine but why would you expect balanced small scale in a PvP area designed for large scale war?

The reason people never get why x'ers or small scalers choose to do things like tower farm and just kite through towers, etc. is not because they are trying to farm kills. Sure you can kill farm in BGs, especially in deathmatch but the problem is they're flooded with werewolves running crimson builds. I once joined a bg with literally 6 werewolves all running crimson, so BG is out of the question because getting a BG without literally everyone being a werewolf crimson build is like rolling a dice and hoping you get the right roll. Now with Imperial city, it's the perfect outlet for this, however.... Imperial city on console(can't speak for PC) is pretty dead besides during specific times in the day. So cyrodiil by default is the place to go because it's always populated. So in order to satisfy the urge to kill farm they HAVE to go to cyrodiil where it's large scale fighting, whether they like it or not. Also not every small scaler is the type to just tower farm all day, there are some that actually are willing to support the map, however they do it in their own manner which is not directly following a zerg train. Some will push deep in the map and take an outpost or hold down a gate slowing down people going to fight, etc.

Jayserix

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

PirateShaped wrote: »

Where 1v1 is concerned, maybe proc is OP and there is imbalance but for me, 1v1 is not a focal point of Cyrodiil. If you enjoy running around resource towers Dswinging, block casting vigor and trading DBs in a ten minute LoS fest, that’s great and I support people playing however they wish. I’ve had my share of that in other games prior to ESO and it’s exciting but wouldn’t IC or BG be a better outlet? If it’s a matter of q or population, sure I understand that but that is more a reason to fix those two as opposed to watering down Cyrodiil to accommodate small scale competitive play.

I play solo Cyrodiil since beta and will be called a zergling here, which is fine but I think if you play Cyrodiil for score and objective, you see where proc sets support the balance of Cyrodiil. I realize though that a lot of players don’t care as much about the actual war within Cyrodiil and care more about individual encounters. Which is fine but why would you expect balanced small scale in a PvP area designed for large scale war?

The reason people never get why x'ers or small scalers choose to do things like tower farm and just kite through towers, etc. is not because they are trying to farm kills. Sure you can kill farm in BGs, especially in deathmatch but the problem is they're flooded with werewolves running crimson builds. I once joined a bg with literally 6 werewolves all running crimson, so BG is out of the question because getting a BG without literally everyone being a werewolf crimson build is like rolling a dice and hoping you get the right roll. Now with Imperial city, it's the perfect outlet for this, however.... Imperial city on console(can't speak for PC) is pretty dead besides during specific times in the day. So cyrodiil by default is the place to go because it's always populated. So in order to satisfy the urge to kill farm they HAVE to go to cyrodiil where it's large scale fighting, whether they like it or not. Also not every small scaler is the type to just tower farm all day, there are some that actually are willing to support the map, however they do it in their own manner which is not directly following a zerg train. Some will push deep in the map and take an outpost or hold down a gate slowing down people going to fight, etc.

This is simply not true. At least not entirely ... solo heroes and smallscammers check for big groups and purposely run into keeps / resources towers to use los and coordinate aoes+ults in narrow spaces.

Don't try to twist reality

PirateShaped

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

The reason people never get why x'ers or small scalers choose to do things like tower farm and just kite through towers, etc. is not because they are trying to farm kills. Sure you can kill farm in BGs, especially in deathmatch but the problem is they're flooded with werewolves running crimson builds. I once joined a bg with literally 6 werewolves all running crimson, so BG is out of the question because getting a BG without literally everyone being a werewolf crimson build is like rolling a dice and hoping you get the right roll. Now with Imperial city, it's the perfect outlet for this, however.... Imperial city on console(can't speak for PC) is pretty dead besides during specific times in the day. So cyrodiil by default is the place to go because it's always populated. So in order to satisfy the urge to kill farm they HAVE to go to cyrodiil where it's large scale fighting, whether they like it or not. Also not every small scaler is the type to just tower farm all day, there are some that actually are willing to support the map, however they do it in their own manner which is not directly following a zerg train. Some will push deep in the map and take an outpost or hold down a gate slowing down people going to fight, etc.

I don't run a lot of BG or IC so I have no idea but based on the fact that everyone complains about them, I am left to assume there is a lot of issues with each.

I think what I was getting at was that instead of changing Cyrodiil to accommodate these players, something should be done with BG and/or IC. There are clearly a lot of players who would like a more balanced environment for small(ish) scale play so it would seem beneficial to give them something. Even before all of this no-proc stuff, it seemed like there was a growing group of players that didn't fit into Cyrodiil but did not have any other options.

I would have to also agree that many small scalers do in fact help the campaign. Now more than ever. However, I think there is a clear distinction between those that do and those who are only looking for choice encounters and stream content.

Abyssmol

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

HiImRex wrote: »

(1) blah blah blah diversity

Answer 1: Current meta with no restrictions create only an illusion of diversity, while completely invalidating the fairly well-designed and interesting combat mechanics underlying ESO pvp.

The truth is, there are only a handful of sets worth running and 90% of them are proc damage / proc healing sets. The proc damage/healing sets offer no meaningful differences in mechanics or interactivity.

Some examples:

• would you rather hold left click to do insane damage for free (heavy attack sets) or tap left click to do the same (Syvarra's)?
• Or would you rather proc an insane dot by casting splitting trap (oblivion's foe) or by casting crit rush (unleashed terror)?
• Do you want your left click to proc crows (Unfathomable Terror) or do you want your left click to proc swords (Morkuldins)?
• Do you want a green beam to heal you for free (Chokethorne), a red beam (Engine Guardian), or red particles (Earthgore)?
• Do you want to see random meteors fall from the sky for 4k (Skoria), or would you rather see a random bear crush somebody for 6k (Selenes)?

The differences in proc conditions are minute and all of them result in breaking the balance of global cooldown management. In such an environment, the combat is not readable beyond "I better watch out for random damage that can come in any form at any time with almost no relation to positioning, timing, or resource management".

Answer 2: What diversity that IS created by the current meta is actually detrimental to the overall enjoyment of the game by its playerbase.

I concede that some of these ridiculous sets can be combined to create some unique builds. The problem is most (probably all) of these "unique" builds basically make the game more boring and frustrating to play. Prime example of this would be 80k thew's block tanks. The entire playstyle consists of putting yourself in a bad position and holding right click until you get low, pressing "R" to pop Goliath, and then dying after your ulti runs out. Or consider the 40k HP werewolf with insane defense/hp regen stacking that simply becomes a DPS / movespeed check.

(2) you're just bad and that's why you can't handle procs

We crushed with procs and we still crush without procs, the only difference is that without procs the combat is more readable, there are more options in any situation, and the skill ceiling is higher. Same victories, just more enjoyable.

No excuses now when you lose either, it's either lag or you made a mistake. (Reality check: it's not always lag)

(3) no one does damage in no proc Cyro

maybe don't stack 38k HP with 4k hp regen on your stam necro and then complain about how you don't do damage

(4) sorcs are OP broken and unbeatable

if @Kitashngmr is 1vXing overload sorcs on the regular in a 25k HP medium armor stam dk without wings, this is probably just a learn to play issue

(5) what about class imbalances

Answer 1: They exist with or without procs. In the proc environment, you saw a lot less sorcs and stam nbs because the procs favored stand and fight classes. In the no proc environment, you see a lot less mag DKs because they need some help.

Answer 2: If we're going to have class imbalances anyway, I'd rather have class imbalance in an environment where the combat mechanics actually make sense and the player's skills matter more

Answer 3: In a no proc environment, we can see class imbalances more clearly, which makes it easier to identify potential fixes

(6) class action law suit? "promissory estoppel?"

Please stop, YOUR specific intent in buying the DLC just to use a couple items for a relatively small part of the entire product doesn't invalidate the fact that every time you bought said product (the base game and any DLC), you signed (accepted) a written contract that contains a commonly understood and expected clause explaining that the developers are free to make balance changes that impact your use of the purchase.

(7) But I didn't read the contract

But you could have, and you also declared that you did read it by signing it / accepting it.

(8) But I don't like it

Sorry to hear that.

(9) but in a perfect world I could sue ZOS over this and win

BAD ENDING: You win the class action lawsuit and set a legal precedent that cripples future developers from making any big changes to their games, no matter how necessary it may be to balance the game and make it more enjoyable. You spend your class-action lawsuit earnings of $2.50 on microtransactions for your next game while flaming its developers for not having the balls to make risky changes to their game. Everyone loses.

---

My 2 cents on the extended no proc Cyrodil:

Is it ideal? No.

In a perfect world, we could have 2 separate campaigns, or ZOS could immediately code in a way to selectively ban certain sets in Cyrodil without breaking the rest of the spaghetti code, AND be able to pick the right sets to ensure quality balancing, or we can even have both at the same time.

This is not that world, and I'm willing to accept that. I think no proc Cyrodil is plenty interesting. There's enough variety if you're willing to accept that maybe you aren't the absolute master of the game as you think you are. If you can find 2-4 people to play with, you'll find there are plenty of things you can do in terms of team play and composition. And we will eventually end up with the "ideal" scenario as ZOS has already stated they will work toward proc AND no proc servers, and also expanding the allowed stat sets.

A lot of the complaints about how no proc Cyro plays is a learn to play issue. Why do I believe this? Because all week long we snack on the same OP sorcs that according to the forums cannot be beat while half paying attention to the game. Because I watch good players in apparently "trash" classes 1v2 overload sorcs in open world.

Just the other day, somebody linked a video of a 38k HP stam necro complaining that no proc cyro is boring and you can't kill anyone. At roughly the same time we were farming 100k+ AP worth of kills inside an enemy keep, outnumbered in a 4 man group with no healer with "bad" off-meta classes.

If you're having trouble getting kills because you stacked 38k HP on a stamcro with 3k hp regen, this is the epitome of a learn 2 play problem. Maybe it turns out that malacath and vat 2h was carrying your damage and you need to make some adjustment to your build and risk dying in a 1v1 in order to get damage.

To those of you who dislike what ZOS is doing and have simply decided to say "I don't like this, I want to use my sets, I don't mind procs, and I'm unsubbing", I respect that.

Best of luck on your next game and your life in general. I'll keep playing and I believe there will be plenty of people playing once this patch hits.

You don't like procs? Nice.
You don't agree with the majority opinion in the forum? Nice.

So we are fighting for you have your on campaign without proc sets.

Stop to fight against us and help us to get it from ZOS.

Split campaign- you'll have your wish. Instead of arguing for no proc rules for everyone, start asking for split campaigns. so we could make this happen faster, and you could be in your little world sooner...

Guizan

I sure hope they quickly fix a non-proc campaign, then the proc-set fans can spend the nights killing each other while the rest of us do PVP. The proccers will complain though as their target numbers will be lower and complain over dividing the community. However by catering to different players with separate campaigns the total numbers can only rise. At the moment some proccers don't play, and previously many who disliked proc-sets was not playing. When we get separate campaigns we will see everyone going where they prefer fighting.

Abyssmol

Guizan wrote: »

I sure hope they quickly fix a non-proc campaign, then the proc-set fans can spend the nights killing each other while the rest of us do PVP. The proccers will complain though as their target numbers will be lower and complain over dividing the community. However by catering to different players with separate campaigns the total numbers can only rise. At the moment some proccers don't play, and previously many who disliked proc-sets was not playing. When we get separate campaigns we will see everyone going where they prefer fighting.

Yeap, I was thinking the same thing, but the other way around. We will see...

UntouchableHunter

Jayserix wrote: »

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

HiImRex wrote: »

(1) blah blah blah diversity

Answer 1: Current meta with no restrictions create only an illusion of diversity, while completely invalidating the fairly well-designed and interesting combat mechanics underlying ESO pvp.

The truth is, there are only a handful of sets worth running and 90% of them are proc damage / proc healing sets. The proc damage/healing sets offer no meaningful differences in mechanics or interactivity.

Some examples:

• would you rather hold left click to do insane damage for free (heavy attack sets) or tap left click to do the same (Syvarra's)?
• Or would you rather proc an insane dot by casting splitting trap (oblivion's foe) or by casting crit rush (unleashed terror)?
• Do you want your left click to proc crows (Unfathomable Terror) or do you want your left click to proc swords (Morkuldins)?
• Do you want a green beam to heal you for free (Chokethorne), a red beam (Engine Guardian), or red particles (Earthgore)?
• Do you want to see random meteors fall from the sky for 4k (Skoria), or would you rather see a random bear crush somebody for 6k (Selenes)?

The differences in proc conditions are minute and all of them result in breaking the balance of global cooldown management. In such an environment, the combat is not readable beyond "I better watch out for random damage that can come in any form at any time with almost no relation to positioning, timing, or resource management".

Answer 2: What diversity that IS created by the current meta is actually detrimental to the overall enjoyment of the game by its playerbase.

I concede that some of these ridiculous sets can be combined to create some unique builds. The problem is most (probably all) of these "unique" builds basically make the game more boring and frustrating to play. Prime example of this would be 80k thew's block tanks. The entire playstyle consists of putting yourself in a bad position and holding right click until you get low, pressing "R" to pop Goliath, and then dying after your ulti runs out. Or consider the 40k HP werewolf with insane defense/hp regen stacking that simply becomes a DPS / movespeed check.

(2) you're just bad and that's why you can't handle procs

We crushed with procs and we still crush without procs, the only difference is that without procs the combat is more readable, there are more options in any situation, and the skill ceiling is higher. Same victories, just more enjoyable.

No excuses now when you lose either, it's either lag or you made a mistake. (Reality check: it's not always lag)

(3) no one does damage in no proc Cyro

maybe don't stack 38k HP with 4k hp regen on your stam necro and then complain about how you don't do damage

(4) sorcs are OP broken and unbeatable

if @Kitashngmr is 1vXing overload sorcs on the regular in a 25k HP medium armor stam dk without wings, this is probably just a learn to play issue

(5) what about class imbalances

Answer 1: They exist with or without procs. In the proc environment, you saw a lot less sorcs and stam nbs because the procs favored stand and fight classes. In the no proc environment, you see a lot less mag DKs because they need some help.

Answer 2: If we're going to have class imbalances anyway, I'd rather have class imbalance in an environment where the combat mechanics actually make sense and the player's skills matter more

Answer 3: In a no proc environment, we can see class imbalances more clearly, which makes it easier to identify potential fixes

(6) class action law suit? "promissory estoppel?"

Please stop, YOUR specific intent in buying the DLC just to use a couple items for a relatively small part of the entire product doesn't invalidate the fact that every time you bought said product (the base game and any DLC), you signed (accepted) a written contract that contains a commonly understood and expected clause explaining that the developers are free to make balance changes that impact your use of the purchase.

(7) But I didn't read the contract

But you could have, and you also declared that you did read it by signing it / accepting it.

(8) But I don't like it

Sorry to hear that.

(9) but in a perfect world I could sue ZOS over this and win

BAD ENDING: You win the class action lawsuit and set a legal precedent that cripples future developers from making any big changes to their games, no matter how necessary it may be to balance the game and make it more enjoyable. You spend your class-action lawsuit earnings of $2.50 on microtransactions for your next game while flaming its developers for not having the balls to make risky changes to their game. Everyone loses.

---

My 2 cents on the extended no proc Cyrodil:

Is it ideal? No.

In a perfect world, we could have 2 separate campaigns, or ZOS could immediately code in a way to selectively ban certain sets in Cyrodil without breaking the rest of the spaghetti code, AND be able to pick the right sets to ensure quality balancing, or we can even have both at the same time.

This is not that world, and I'm willing to accept that. I think no proc Cyrodil is plenty interesting. There's enough variety if you're willing to accept that maybe you aren't the absolute master of the game as you think you are. If you can find 2-4 people to play with, you'll find there are plenty of things you can do in terms of team play and composition. And we will eventually end up with the "ideal" scenario as ZOS has already stated they will work toward proc AND no proc servers, and also expanding the allowed stat sets.

A lot of the complaints about how no proc Cyro plays is a learn to play issue. Why do I believe this? Because all week long we snack on the same OP sorcs that according to the forums cannot be beat while half paying attention to the game. Because I watch good players in apparently "trash" classes 1v2 overload sorcs in open world.

Just the other day, somebody linked a video of a 38k HP stam necro complaining that no proc cyro is boring and you can't kill anyone. At roughly the same time we were farming 100k+ AP worth of kills inside an enemy keep, outnumbered in a 4 man group with no healer with "bad" off-meta classes.

If you're having trouble getting kills because you stacked 38k HP on a stamcro with 3k hp regen, this is the epitome of a learn 2 play problem. Maybe it turns out that malacath and vat 2h was carrying your damage and you need to make some adjustment to your build and risk dying in a 1v1 in order to get damage.

To those of you who dislike what ZOS is doing and have simply decided to say "I don't like this, I want to use my sets, I don't mind procs, and I'm unsubbing", I respect that.

Best of luck on your next game and your life in general. I'll keep playing and I believe there will be plenty of people playing once this patch hits.

You come off as a very selfish person. You are telling all these people that their time, effort and money isn't worth anything. Just because you couldn't hack it in the normal game yoy want it dumbed down. Sad day indeed. You play on pc na?

He's selfish for wanting X, you're selfish for wanting Y. Everybody is selfish ...

I also wonder what's dumbed down ? Having the game provide you free damage or automatic heals ? Or having to press buttons at the right time ?

If

Abyssmol wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

HiImRex wrote: »

(1) blah blah blah diversity

Answer 1: Current meta with no restrictions create only an illusion of diversity, while completely invalidating the fairly well-designed and interesting combat mechanics underlying ESO pvp.

The truth is, there are only a handful of sets worth running and 90% of them are proc damage / proc healing sets. The proc damage/healing sets offer no meaningful differences in mechanics or interactivity.

Some examples:

• would you rather hold left click to do insane damage for free (heavy attack sets) or tap left click to do the same (Syvarra's)?
• Or would you rather proc an insane dot by casting splitting trap (oblivion's foe) or by casting crit rush (unleashed terror)?
• Do you want your left click to proc crows (Unfathomable Terror) or do you want your left click to proc swords (Morkuldins)?
• Do you want a green beam to heal you for free (Chokethorne), a red beam (Engine Guardian), or red particles (Earthgore)?
• Do you want to see random meteors fall from the sky for 4k (Skoria), or would you rather see a random bear crush somebody for 6k (Selenes)?

The differences in proc conditions are minute and all of them result in breaking the balance of global cooldown management. In such an environment, the combat is not readable beyond "I better watch out for random damage that can come in any form at any time with almost no relation to positioning, timing, or resource management".

Answer 2: What diversity that IS created by the current meta is actually detrimental to the overall enjoyment of the game by its playerbase.

I concede that some of these ridiculous sets can be combined to create some unique builds. The problem is most (probably all) of these "unique" builds basically make the game more boring and frustrating to play. Prime example of this would be 80k thew's block tanks. The entire playstyle consists of putting yourself in a bad position and holding right click until you get low, pressing "R" to pop Goliath, and then dying after your ulti runs out. Or consider the 40k HP werewolf with insane defense/hp regen stacking that simply becomes a DPS / movespeed check.

(2) you're just bad and that's why you can't handle procs

We crushed with procs and we still crush without procs, the only difference is that without procs the combat is more readable, there are more options in any situation, and the skill ceiling is higher. Same victories, just more enjoyable.

No excuses now when you lose either, it's either lag or you made a mistake. (Reality check: it's not always lag)

(3) no one does damage in no proc Cyro

maybe don't stack 38k HP with 4k hp regen on your stam necro and then complain about how you don't do damage

(4) sorcs are OP broken and unbeatable

if @Kitashngmr is 1vXing overload sorcs on the regular in a 25k HP medium armor stam dk without wings, this is probably just a learn to play issue

(5) what about class imbalances

Answer 1: They exist with or without procs. In the proc environment, you saw a lot less sorcs and stam nbs because the procs favored stand and fight classes. In the no proc environment, you see a lot less mag DKs because they need some help.

Answer 2: If we're going to have class imbalances anyway, I'd rather have class imbalance in an environment where the combat mechanics actually make sense and the player's skills matter more

Answer 3: In a no proc environment, we can see class imbalances more clearly, which makes it easier to identify potential fixes

(6) class action law suit? "promissory estoppel?"

Please stop, YOUR specific intent in buying the DLC just to use a couple items for a relatively small part of the entire product doesn't invalidate the fact that every time you bought said product (the base game and any DLC), you signed (accepted) a written contract that contains a commonly understood and expected clause explaining that the developers are free to make balance changes that impact your use of the purchase.

(7) But I didn't read the contract

But you could have, and you also declared that you did read it by signing it / accepting it.

(8) But I don't like it

Sorry to hear that.

(9) but in a perfect world I could sue ZOS over this and win

BAD ENDING: You win the class action lawsuit and set a legal precedent that cripples future developers from making any big changes to their games, no matter how necessary it may be to balance the game and make it more enjoyable. You spend your class-action lawsuit earnings of $2.50 on microtransactions for your next game while flaming its developers for not having the balls to make risky changes to their game. Everyone loses.

---

My 2 cents on the extended no proc Cyrodil:

Is it ideal? No.

In a perfect world, we could have 2 separate campaigns, or ZOS could immediately code in a way to selectively ban certain sets in Cyrodil without breaking the rest of the spaghetti code, AND be able to pick the right sets to ensure quality balancing, or we can even have both at the same time.

This is not that world, and I'm willing to accept that. I think no proc Cyrodil is plenty interesting. There's enough variety if you're willing to accept that maybe you aren't the absolute master of the game as you think you are. If you can find 2-4 people to play with, you'll find there are plenty of things you can do in terms of team play and composition. And we will eventually end up with the "ideal" scenario as ZOS has already stated they will work toward proc AND no proc servers, and also expanding the allowed stat sets.

A lot of the complaints about how no proc Cyro plays is a learn to play issue. Why do I believe this? Because all week long we snack on the same OP sorcs that according to the forums cannot be beat while half paying attention to the game. Because I watch good players in apparently "trash" classes 1v2 overload sorcs in open world.

Just the other day, somebody linked a video of a 38k HP stam necro complaining that no proc cyro is boring and you can't kill anyone. At roughly the same time we were farming 100k+ AP worth of kills inside an enemy keep, outnumbered in a 4 man group with no healer with "bad" off-meta classes.

If you're having trouble getting kills because you stacked 38k HP on a stamcro with 3k hp regen, this is the epitome of a learn 2 play problem. Maybe it turns out that malacath and vat 2h was carrying your damage and you need to make some adjustment to your build and risk dying in a 1v1 in order to get damage.

To those of you who dislike what ZOS is doing and have simply decided to say "I don't like this, I want to use my sets, I don't mind procs, and I'm unsubbing", I respect that.

Best of luck on your next game and your life in general. I'll keep playing and I believe there will be plenty of people playing once this patch hits.

You don't like procs? Nice.
You don't agree with the majority opinion in the forum? Nice.

So we are fighting for you have your on campaign without proc sets.

Stop to fight against us and help us to get it from ZOS.

Split campaign- you'll have your wish. Instead of arguing for no proc rules for everyone, start asking for split campaigns. so we could make this happen faster, and you could be in your little world sooner...

I wana split campaigns and I'm asking for it.

NagualV

Here's what I want to know - if the current pvp population gets 'split' into two campaigns, isnt that bad for cyrodil population as a whole? Wont that mean less people/less fights in each of the 'proc'/'no proc' campaigns?

Unless I am missing something, I really think keeping everyone in one 'campaign' is better. And just addressing procs/malacath/heavy etc.

ShadowProc

StaticWave wrote: »

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Dr_Ganknstein wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

This post is great.

Don’t listen to the crying ZOS, no proc is fun. Keep it permanent.

Buying DLC for a broken set only entitles you to use it against NPCs. The rest of us shouldn’t be forced to deal with some of the broken procs.

You are right. No need to buy any DLC that doesn't provide gear on that list. Why would they need or want money anyway? I want even less option please.

No need for you to buy it, but some people think that PVE is fun.

In the meantime I suggest you learn to leverage your class skill combos. I’m so not sorry that people can be killed now and ball groups don’t require 20 siege to eliminate.

Ok learned my combos like a few years ago. Wait, so you werent able to kill people until after they dumbed down pvp? I thought you were one of those highly skilled players? Also have you not seen the zergs running around balled up with no fear of bombers? Pleeease don't tell me you are on console and trying to tell us how it is, that would be funny.

I wouldn’t play console for any money, PC here. Ball groups die now, and it doesn’t require four times as many people and max siege to do it.

The people crying loudest for proc sets loved the 40K HP stacks with 4K regen and proc sets.

The people crying loudest loved unkillable players and ball groups that ran around keeps in circles for hours.

Those days are over for the next few months at least. I’m sorry you’re not having that kind of fun anymore, but the rest of us are.

I didn't love unkillable players but I do like variety in options. Matter of fact I think the typical zergling want procs to be removed the most. They huddle together in Cyrodiil more so then ever now.

So your real complaint is that people play near each other in the fashion of a team? In an alliance war? Are any of them unkillable? No, not any more. So you want unkillable, no teams pvp?

I find it funny people keep talking about how its all about skills now when in reality they just turned on easymode. Easymode gets boring. Lets see how this plays out in a month or so. You can't tell me the skill ceiling has been raised because they removed 90% of the games gear.

If it's easy mode I'm happy to 1v1 you with cyro build. Let's hope it's an easy match for you

Static Wave - AD stamsorc
Cash me outside bruh., howbow duh? Since this began I've gotten in a lot more fights against sorcs, wonder why? Talk about easymode, am I right..

Yea stamsorc is definitely easy mode. That's why I'm the only stamsorc around in cyrodiil

If you think stat builds are easymode why don't you show up in a stat build and 1vX or 1v1 people? Would definitely prove your point no?

Ok already did that.

When? I have people telling me that you're a gank blade zerging people down. I checked your profile and saw you making a post about toxic barrage ulti. Only gankblades use that. So you're complaining about sorcs when you're on a squishy gankblade specced to kill people when they aren't paying attention. Cool. Makes sense why you're against sorcs so much

You needed someone to point that out to you? Read his names. LOL.

AyaDark

1 skill 1 set skilled play topic.
Forum figting PVP.
Such interesting pvp in game with tests, that we have such long posts on forum.

max_only

I’m a fan of no-proc but healers in my guild are feeling the pain. They get so little recognition as it is, and to take away their support sets is a bit cruel. I’d be in favor of sets that have a steady state return to Cyrodiil and we leave out the “chance” sets.

Firstmep

If they do split the campaigns I wonder which one will be the old Gray Host equivalent, since most ppl will flock there regardless.
Also curious what about no cp? Will it have procs? No? Bgs or ic? Will they be split?
So many questions..

Minyassa

max_only wrote: »

I’m a fan of no-proc but healers in my guild are feeling the pain. They get so little recognition as it is, and to take away their support sets is a bit cruel. I’d be in favor of sets that have a steady state return to Cyrodiil and we leave out the “chance” sets.

Hear hear. I was very disheartened that my Healer's Habit got squished right after I finished getting my set together.

Mr_Gallows

I would rather have only three builds to pick when you enter pvp (healer, tank or damage) that are balanced by zos, rater than the incredibly poor gameplay resulting from the illusion of build diversity. In a perfect world more build diversity would be fun, but not when it seriously hurts gameplay. Also regen is generally conpletely out of control... there should just be a hard cap of 2k regen... then it's up to you how to build for it.

Urzigurumash

HiImRex wrote: »

if @Kitashngmr is 1vXing overload sorcs on the regular in a 25k HP medium armor stam dk without wings, this is probably just a learn to play issue

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/568150/pvp-tierlist-for-flames-of-ambition/p1

I have my own, somewhat unusual, thoughts regarding the state of StamDK and where it should go from here. I will soon author a post regarding this matter.

As an input to this forthcoming post, is there any chance OP, or the cited player, or the author of the post I've linked can comment on how we can relate OP's comment regarding StamDK to where it was ranked in this Tier List?