Both PvP and PvE desperately need to be addressed to prevent this game from doing downhill.

Sangwyne

PvP in this game has been unbalanced for years, and nobody seems to be able to come to a consensus on how to balance it perfectly. That hasn't stopped PvP players from doing everything they can try to lay blame on PvE players for the state of the game; over the years, dozens if not hundreds of sets, skills, and strategies have been nerfed through cries on the forums and elsewhere to gut tanks, healers, heals, and just about any set that you can name. Clever Alchemist was one such victim:

Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.
Developer Comments: This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.

Now tanks are on the chopping block again, with Heavy armor being nerfed severely next patch, when they are already the least popular role in the game! The reason ZOS listens so intently to the concerns of PvP players is the sheer amount of noise they make; take just about anything and the PvP scene will find a way to get it nerfed. There's a recent post clamoring for CHAINS of all things to be nerfed! As a tank player, I am sick and tired of seeing my role gutted to appease players that want an easy win in PvP. I wanted to make post after post about sets and skills in PvP that should be nerfed in order to bring balance back to PvE, so that the players crying for other people's playstyles to be changed for their own benefit might realize the consequences of their actions. But the simple fact of the matter is, both PvP and PvE are fundamentally broken, and changes to one have far reaching repercussions for the other; splitting them up to make separate changes might be the only way to save this game from slowly having every fun aspect of it reduced until nothing is remotely strong anymore and everyone is equal in misery. What would you do to fix this game? Should PvP players take their own advice and just "git gud"? Should PvE and PvP be balanced independently of each other? What issues most need to be addressed, and how?

Micah_Bayer

I've read a lot of your posts, and you seem to be very aggro towards PvP players. Taking all that in, i don't believe you're a good advocate of balance.

relentless_turnip

I'm not really sure why you have made it your mission to increase PvP and PVE tensions, but I've got to say it's a strange logic. This thread actually embodies the very thing you are complaining about.

Stuff gets nerfed for use and abuse on both sides and blaming it all on one side just makes things worse in terms of stopping this behaviour.

The heavy changes don't balance anything in PvP. Testing it on the PTS it is still the dominant armor type probably more so. Promoting its ability to tank and lessening the damage you can do would have brought it closer to balance. If it was a change made for PvP they certainly didn't listen to what the players complaints were regarding it.

Sangwyne

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

I've read a lot of your posts, and you seem to be very aggro towards PvP players. Taking all that in, i don't believe you're a good advocate of balance.

I've played both PvP and PvE and can enjoy both on their own merit, I just don't like one being nerfed to satisfy the other. I don't think PvP players should suffer nerfs to their fun to satisfy PvE players either, I want both to be split up so that specific changes can be made to each one individually. Not only would this mean that PvE players could finally coexist with PvP players, it would mean that far more direct changes could be made without impacting balance; ZOS has to carefully consider what impact each adjustment would have on the other side of the game, and this would mean they could actually tweak things that need attention without worrying about it having a negative impact elsewhere and holding back from doing what needs to be done.

Pauwer

Pve tanks use clever alchemist? Cant your tank pop a potion midfight? All seems odd to me.

BlueRaven

I don’t think these forums have much to do with it.

The reason, I feel, pvp is favored around balancing is because the combat lead was the old pvp lead, and he prefers pvp over pve.

Urzigurumash

OP are you absolutely sure there was no deliberate intent to reduce tank sustain in PvE? I'm not sure anybody exactly knows why Sentinel and Stonekeeper (and Grundwulf, not that it's for tanks) were nerfed when they were, but I don't think it had anything to do with PvP. I could be wrong.

Sangwyne

Urzigurumash wrote: »

OP are you absolutely sure there was no deliberate intent to reduce tank sustain in PvE? I'm not sure anybody exactly knows why Sentinel and Stonekeeper (and Grundwulf, not that it's for tanks) were nerfed when they were, but I don't think it had anything to do with PvP. I could be wrong.

I have no idea why the developers would specifically target tank sustain, unless the developer Blue mentioned happens to really dislike tanks for some reason.

BlueRaven wrote: »

I don’t think these forums have much to do with it.

The reason, I feel, pvp is favored around balancing is because the combat lead was the old pvp lead, and he prefers pvp over pve.

I think it unlikely, but no, I am not absolutely sure. Tanks are already the least popular role not only in this game, but practically every single MMO that has them. There have been several complaints about the length of dungeon queues and sheer quantity of "fake tanks" skipping the line and then not tanking, because tanks are the limiting factor with regards to dungeons. Even healers aren't remotely as scarce as tanks; try queuing up for a vet dungeon as a healer compared to queueing as a tank (Have fun). No one wants to tank; the role is difficult, unrewarding, and is the first to be blamed when the group wipes or something goes wrong. It's certainly possible that someone somewhere at ZOS holds a grudge against tanks, but if not (and I don't see why they would) then I simply don't understand that they would target tanks specifically when the role remains as miserable as it currently stands, unless the changes were implemented strictly due to concerns in PvP.

Urzigurumash

Sangwyne wrote: »

I have no idea why the developers would specifically target tank sustain, unless the developer Blue mentioned happens to really dislike tanks for some reason.

To elevate the necessity of Healers and to motivate more people to try various tank sets that mostly go unused.

This is just conjecture, I'm not really experienced enough in PvE to know whether this is plausible.

SshadowSscale

A lot of the nerfs you state were not even nerfed because of pvp.... just like when crit gets nerfed it gets blamed on pvp yet everyone in pvp is running malacath because crits are way way too weak in pvp already..... but hey crit got nerfed only pvp could have caused it because nothing gets? nerfed because of pve..... lmoa stuff gets nerfed and buffed because of both sides and here is a sad news flash for you.... a lot of balance changes since last year has been done specifically for pve as part of zos process of raising pve floor and lowering pve ceiling.... but hey it's easier to blame it on the forgotten child aka pvp so let's just blame it all on pvp..... honestly the forums is the weirdest place to be a lot of the times lmao

AMeanOne

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

I have no idea why the developers would specifically target tank sustain, unless the developer Blue mentioned happens to really dislike tanks for some reason.

To elevate the necessity of Healers and to motivate more people to try various tank sets that mostly go unused.

No it has to be because of pvp. There's literally no other reason in the world.

Sangwyne

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

I have no idea why the developers would specifically target tank sustain, unless the developer Blue mentioned happens to really dislike tanks for some reason.

To elevate the necessity of Healers and to motivate more people to try various tank sets that mostly go unused.

This is just conjecture, I'm not really experienced enough in PvE to know whether this is plausible.

A good point, and a possibility I haven't seen raised yet. I honestly was under the impression that healers were also being shafted though, given that the recent changes severely reduced healing done and received across the board, as well as Ring of the Pale Order having been implemented and kind of invalidating healers in a lot of content. I don't have as much experience with healing, but from what I can see, several people that do have expressed disappointment with the direction ZOS took with that item, noting that it made their role redundant for certain dungeons and more difficult to heal groups where someone had the Ring equipped.

SshadowSscale wrote: »

A lot of the nerfs you state were not even nerfed because of pvp.... a lot of balance changes since last year has been done specifically for pve.... but hey it's easier to blame it on the forgotten child aka pvp so let's just blame it all on pvp.....

You know, I hear a lot about all these nerfs to PvP specific sets, skills and strategies coming from PvE, but I have yet to see very many examples. Even the argument I've seen made that pre-buffing sets like Clever Alchemist, Stygian and Seventh Legion were being nerfed because of score pushers in trials doesn't tread water, considering that the Developers specifically commented on sets like Clever Alchemist "only being used to one-shot players from stealth". Regardless, I am not saying it doesn't happen (although probably far less than the reverse), just that I don't wish to see either PvE or PvP being nerfed to appease the other. I think they should be separate modes entirely, with different numbers allowing things to be fine-tuned to the needs of each side of the game individually.

Urzigurumash

Yeah, good point about the ring. I really have no clue, but it's something that's crossed my mind over the years regarding the low popularity of tanking. If you showed up in anything other than Alkosh and Ebon, you got the boot. For years you had to have the Alkosh weapons, because of the Ebon bar swap bug and the necessity of wearing 5 heavy, and almost everyone in a run of Maw was after the same thing. It was a high barrier to entry for tanking, when it really wasn't as necessary for pugging 4 man content as everyone made it out to be.

I guess you could've just run Ebon head and shoulders, and Alkosh belt and gloves, but in those days I think most found it unconscionable not to run a monster set on a tank.

Sangwyne

Urzigurumash wrote: »

If you showed up in anything other than Alkosh and Ebon, you got the boot. For years you had to have the Alkosh weapons, because of the Ebon bar swap bug and the necessity of wearing 5 heavy, and almost everyone in a run of Maw was after the same thing. It was a high barrier to entry for tanking, when it really wasn't as necessary for pugging 4 man content as everyone made it out to be.

I guess you could've just run Ebon head and shoulders, and Alkosh belt and gloves, but in those days I think most found it unconscionable not to run a monster set on a tank.

Honestly, I'm still on the fence about the Alkosh changes. On the one hand, it's nice to be unshackled from the expectation to wear the set even if it didn't contain the greatest set bonuses for tanks, but on the other, it was one of the few medium armor that we could get away with using for mobility and sustain, and requiring 3000 weapon and spell damage just makes it that much more difficult for some tanks who will likely still be expected to wear it in their trial groups, but will have to sacrifice block cost on their jewelry or something to attain the 30000 damage needed to utilized it fully. The ring... yeah, unfortunately I don't have too much to say either on that, but from what I can see, it shifted the meta even further towards the 1tank 3DD that we see in dungeons, or even worse, 4DD. Really feels like a lot of these changes have just had the net effect of making tanks less tanky, DPS do less damage/burst, and roles feeling homogenized.

DjinnAeternam

"to prevent this game from doing downhill."

It's already been downhill for some time now, just saying..

preevious

Yeah, people keep saying that since launch .. It'll go downhill any day, now

Brrrofski

The fact is, ZOS don't know how to balance the game separately.

At one point, some skills did this. Negate still does. It stuns mobs, but not players. But ZOS don't do that with a lot of skills that need it. Chains is a good example. You shouldn't be able to continuously cast a crowd control skill over and over for FREE until it does pull someone. It's stupid and doesn't promote people learning game mechanics.

A lot of pve nerfs are because of pve.

And tanks and healers are the least played be wise a lot of people find them boring quote frankly. I enjoy rankings lot, but healing I find kinda boring. You feel like an afterthought outside of trials imo.

Part of that, is be wise actually, tanks can completely self sustain in a lot of content. The fact that Vet BRP and even brand new hardmode dungeons are run very often as 3 DD and 1 tank highlights how useless healers are in certain content.

Like vet BRP is the hardest 4 man content in the game, and a lot of tanks can do it without a healer.

I don't want tank nerfs. I run vet dungeons on a tank build that can do decent dps (like 20k), buff the group and not need a healer for most content. I love playing that build.

BUT, why can I make a build that does that? That can be the only surviving member of the group in vet Scalecaller last boss from 34% and still complete the right? Nothing I use on that build has anything to do with PvP, and none of the things I use cause any imbalance issues in pvp.

Alchemist was nerfed be wise of pvp, yes. It had way too much power for ganking. But all these other sets being changed are not be wise of that.

7th legion does not work on a ganker, who are usually night blades. Firstly, casting an armor ability pulls you out of stealth. Secondly, it would provide way less potential damage output than other sets for ganking.

Watch Skinny Cheeks go through first patch notes. He talks about ZOS finally clicking that score pushing groups were using these sets.

And yes, ZOS put a note about senche's bite. But I guarantee you, they have no clue what they're on about. No ganker is using this, and nobody I actually know is using this in pvp. So if that is a pvp change, it was completely unwarranted.

But look at all the other sets. They're mostly trial sets which have been changed for that reason.

And these have impacted pvp. With 7th, I now need to run into a fight, hit someone, then cast an armor ability. At that point I could have lost my burst window. I'm not talking about ganking either. Just any build. I want all my buffs up before engaging.

Same with armor master. As a magblade, I keep my shield up and that buff up outside of combat when approaching a keep, to lower people's hank potential on me. That's gone too now.

And I find it so ironic that PvP players are the whinny, salty ones. Go and read my chains thread as a neutral. I pointed out a legit issue with a skill in PvP. Even if I overlooked something, barely anyone came back with an adult response. The abuse that I got in that thread is actually ridiculous.

And you've personally mentioned my thread in another post and now in a thread that you've made about how pvp players "whining" are ruining the game. But you made a thread about that. You do see the irony there, right?

tsaescishoeshiner

If you pay close attention, you'll find that the game is going very much uphill. We're getting giant frog enemies, and a netch hat has been datamined.

nqvarihs

thats some serious delusion. no wonder the game is in such a miserable state if this is the kind of players zenimax caters to

AyaDark

If 30% players play pvp by sorcs and 10% for DK,first nerf sorcs. While the same 10% will play it.

If 4% play Templars - give them skills that are good, untill 10% players will play tham.

To the same untill 1/6 players will play each class.

Do not even listen what people wright.

If 80% will play sorcs - all posts will be about how weak sorcs are and they needto be more OP.

80%players on class ? Hard nerf, untill not more than 15% players.

4% players on templars ? Make big boostto them.

And look mana or stamina too.

That how balance work.

Not listen to some cry people that aleays eant to be just OP and kill weak.

usmguy1234

For whatever reason balance doesn't mean $$$ to ZOS so after nearly 7 years we shouldn't expect the game to magically be balanced. It's an endless cycle of pumping out chapters and introducing a new meta every quarter. This is reality and if you don't like it, it is easy enough to proverbially put your money where your mouth is.

Eedat

You complain about PvPers throwing blame at PvEers while doing the exact thing you're complaining about in reverse. You don't bridge the gap by being overtly hostile to one side. You can claim you do both all you want but it's extremely obvious you've picked a side and belittling and hurl insults at the other.

What proof do you provide that the changes are even aimed at PvP? What proof do you provide that people don't tank in PUGs because they think tanks are weak? We never fail to have a tank in an organized trial guild. I can tell you the reason I don't tank in PUG finder is because I can't bear being drug through a dungeon with a combined 15k dps. It has absolutely zero to do with me thinking tanks are weak or strong.

Alurria

Sangwyne wrote: »

PvP in this game has been unbalanced for years, and nobody seems to be able to come to a consensus on how to balance it perfectly. That hasn't stopped PvP players from doing everything they can try to lay blame on PvE players for the state of the game; over the years, dozens if not hundreds of sets, skills, and strategies have been nerfed through cries on the forums and elsewhere to gut tanks, healers, heals, and just about any set that you can name. Clever Alchemist was one such victim:

Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.
Developer Comments: This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.

Now tanks are on the chopping block again, with Heavy armor being nerfed severely next patch, when they are already the least popular role in the game! The reason ZOS listens so intently to the concerns of PvP players is the sheer amount of noise they make; take just about anything and the PvP scene will find a way to get it nerfed. There's a recent post clamoring for CHAINS of all things to be nerfed! As a tank player, I am sick and tired of seeing my role gutted to appease players that want an easy win in PvP. I wanted to make post after post about sets and skills in PvP that should be nerfed in order to bring balance back to PvE, so that the players crying for other people's playstyles to be changed for their own benefit might realize the consequences of their actions. But the simple fact of the matter is, both PvP and PvE are fundamentally broken, and changes to one have far reaching repercussions for the other; splitting them up to make separate changes might be the only way to save this game from slowly having every fun aspect of it reduced until nothing is remotely strong anymore and everyone is equal in misery. What would you do to fix this game? Should PvP players take their own advice and just "git gud"? Should PvE and PvP be balanced independently of each other? What issues most need to be addressed, and how?

They should be separate. When you go into a pvpzone you should be required to wear pvp gear, when you are in pve zone wear pve gear. Stats should also change. Totally separate them. For years and years developers have been trying to fit both play styles in to one shoe, when they need two. Sorry for the aweful anology.

usmguy1234

Eedat wrote: »

You complain about PvPers throwing blame at PvEers while doing the exact thing you're complaining about in reverse. You don't bridge the gap by being overtly hostile to one side. You can claim you do both all you want but it's extremely obvious you've picked a side and belittling and hurl insults at the other.

What proof do you provide that the changes are even aimed at PvP? What proof do you provide that people don't tank in PUGs because they think tanks are weak? We never fail to have a tank in an organized trial guild. I can tell you the reason I don't tank in PUG finder is because I can't bear being drug through a dungeon with a combined 15k dps. It has absolutely zero to do with me thinking tanks are weak or strong.

What's more likely is that ZOS is just nerfing stuff to force people to buy content. If it happens to coincide with what people are whining about on the forums, the more the merrier. It's better for players to be fighting amongst each other than putting where it really needs to be put- which is square on the shoulders of the company that owns the game.

Eedat

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

You complain about PvPers throwing blame at PvEers while doing the exact thing you're complaining about in reverse. You don't bridge the gap by being overtly hostile to one side. You can claim you do both all you want but it's extremely obvious you've picked a side and belittling and hurl insults at the other.

What proof do you provide that the changes are even aimed at PvP? What proof do you provide that people don't tank in PUGs because they think tanks are weak? We never fail to have a tank in an organized trial guild. I can tell you the reason I don't tank in PUG finder is because I can't bear being drug through a dungeon with a combined 15k dps. It has absolutely zero to do with me thinking tanks are weak or strong.

What's more likely is that ZOS is just nerfing stuff to force people to buy content. If it happens to coincide with what people are whining about on the forums, the more the merrier. It's better for players to be fighting amongst each other than putting where it really needs to be put- which is square on the shoulders of the company that owns the game.

Or it could just be to increase healer viability. DPS is nerfed. Tank sustain nerfed. More reliance on buffs and synergies from the healer. Less 4 DPS and 1 tank + 3 DPS runs. Healer becomes less optional

coop500

Eedat wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

You complain about PvPers throwing blame at PvEers while doing the exact thing you're complaining about in reverse. You don't bridge the gap by being overtly hostile to one side. You can claim you do both all you want but it's extremely obvious you've picked a side and belittling and hurl insults at the other.

What proof do you provide that the changes are even aimed at PvP? What proof do you provide that people don't tank in PUGs because they think tanks are weak? We never fail to have a tank in an organized trial guild. I can tell you the reason I don't tank in PUG finder is because I can't bear being drug through a dungeon with a combined 15k dps. It has absolutely zero to do with me thinking tanks are weak or strong.

What's more likely is that ZOS is just nerfing stuff to force people to buy content. If it happens to coincide with what people are whining about on the forums, the more the merrier. It's better for players to be fighting amongst each other than putting where it really needs to be put- which is square on the shoulders of the company that owns the game.

Or it could just be to increase healer viability. DPS is nerfed. Tank sustain nerfed. More reliance on buffs and synergies from the healer. Less 4 DPS and 1 tank + 3 DPS runs. Healer becomes less optional

I wouldn't mind that, DPS is way too overpowered in PVE at the moment

Eedat

coop500 wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

You complain about PvPers throwing blame at PvEers while doing the exact thing you're complaining about in reverse. You don't bridge the gap by being overtly hostile to one side. You can claim you do both all you want but it's extremely obvious you've picked a side and belittling and hurl insults at the other.

What proof do you provide that the changes are even aimed at PvP? What proof do you provide that people don't tank in PUGs because they think tanks are weak? We never fail to have a tank in an organized trial guild. I can tell you the reason I don't tank in PUG finder is because I can't bear being drug through a dungeon with a combined 15k dps. It has absolutely zero to do with me thinking tanks are weak or strong.

What's more likely is that ZOS is just nerfing stuff to force people to buy content. If it happens to coincide with what people are whining about on the forums, the more the merrier. It's better for players to be fighting amongst each other than putting where it really needs to be put- which is square on the shoulders of the company that owns the game.

Or it could just be to increase healer viability. DPS is nerfed. Tank sustain nerfed. More reliance on buffs and synergies from the healer. Less 4 DPS and 1 tank + 3 DPS runs. Healer becomes less optional

I wouldn't mind that, DPS is way too overpowered in PVE at the moment

Tank is super strong as well. I can self sustain through almost all vet dungeon content with no outside help. OP fails to grasp why people don't queue for tank in PUG groups. It's because you're rolling the dice with your time by getting horrendous DPSes. I'd rather just queue on a DPS I know I can hard carry on and go do something else productive in queue. In organized guilds where you can rely on your group to not be potatoes, suddenly there is never an issue getting a tank.

karekiz

Eedat wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

You complain about PvPers throwing blame at PvEers while doing the exact thing you're complaining about in reverse. You don't bridge the gap by being overtly hostile to one side. You can claim you do both all you want but it's extremely obvious you've picked a side and belittling and hurl insults at the other.

What proof do you provide that the changes are even aimed at PvP? What proof do you provide that people don't tank in PUGs because they think tanks are weak? We never fail to have a tank in an organized trial guild. I can tell you the reason I don't tank in PUG finder is because I can't bear being drug through a dungeon with a combined 15k dps. It has absolutely zero to do with me thinking tanks are weak or strong.

What's more likely is that ZOS is just nerfing stuff to force people to buy content. If it happens to coincide with what people are whining about on the forums, the more the merrier. It's better for players to be fighting amongst each other than putting where it really needs to be put- which is square on the shoulders of the company that owns the game.

Or it could just be to increase healer viability. DPS is nerfed. Tank sustain nerfed. More reliance on buffs and synergies from the healer. Less 4 DPS and 1 tank + 3 DPS runs. Healer becomes less optional

So just slot Ring of the Pale order and win? Any mag DPS can toss a mystic orb to a tank, it isn't that big a deal.

regime211

Sangwyne wrote: »

PvP in this game has been unbalanced for years, and nobody seems to be able to come to a consensus on how to balance it perfectly. That hasn't stopped PvP players from doing everything they can try to lay blame on PvE players for the state of the game; over the years, dozens if not hundreds of sets, skills, and strategies have been nerfed through cries on the forums and elsewhere to gut tanks, healers, heals, and just about any set that you can name. Clever Alchemist was one such victim:

Clever Alchemist: This item set’s proc now requires that you are in combat for it to function.
Developer Comments: This solves the issue where some players would activate their potion with this item set, then completely switch their gear to a new item set while retaining the bonus. We want this item set to be used more strategically in the middle of combat, rather than it only being used to one-shot players from stealth.

Now tanks are on the chopping block again, with Heavy armor being nerfed severely next patch, when they are already the least popular role in the game! The reason ZOS listens so intently to the concerns of PvP players is the sheer amount of noise they make; take just about anything and the PvP scene will find a way to get it nerfed. There's a recent post clamoring for CHAINS of all things to be nerfed! As a tank player, I am sick and tired of seeing my role gutted to appease players that want an easy win in PvP. I wanted to make post after post about sets and skills in PvP that should be nerfed in order to bring balance back to PvE, so that the players crying for other people's playstyles to be changed for their own benefit might realize the consequences of their actions. But the simple fact of the matter is, both PvP and PvE are fundamentally broken, and changes to one have far reaching repercussions for the other; splitting them up to make separate changes might be the only way to save this game from slowly having every fun aspect of it reduced until nothing is remotely strong anymore and everyone is equal in misery. What would you do to fix this game? Should PvP players take their own advice and just "git gud"? Should PvE and PvP be balanced independently of each other? What issues most need to be addressed, and how?

HA! the community itself cries so much about changes and nerf's that it profoundly has changed the game in a negative way. im still at "awe" how Nightblades managed to get their incap reverted and reworked, yet Dragonknight's wing's could not be reworked to still deflect damage. in my honest opinion it could have been a simple rework, and i am a sole pvp player, now due to people complaining in pvp, they GUTTED wing's and people believe the new style of wings are good! yet i see people running "race against time" instead of wing's. This is why i can't bother to play this game for hours anymore like i used to.

Brenticus12

Heavy armor isn't getting nerfed. Tanks are tankier at CP200 on the new system than they are at CP810 on the current system.

Sangwyne

Brrrofski wrote: »

The fact is, ZOS don't know how to balance the game separately.

Chains is a good example. You shouldn't be able to continuously cast a crowd control skill over and over for FREE until it does pull someone. It's stupid and doesn't promote people learning game mechanics.

And I find it so ironic that PvP players are the whinny, salty ones. Go and read my chains thread as a neutral. I pointed out a legit issue with a skill in PvP. Even if I overlooked something, barely anyone came back with an adult response. The abuse that I got in that thread is actually ridiculous.

And you've personally mentioned my thread in another post and now in a thread that you've made about how pvp players "whining" are ruining the game. But you made a thread about that. You do see the irony there, right?

Chains was not a good example, that's exactly why you received so much negative feedback. The PvE community is quite large, even if the tanking population isn't, and many people are tired of skills, sets and strategies that they use being nerfed, even if they aren't overperforming there, because PvE found some way to exploit them. A lot of people found that thread to be proof that PvP will whine about practically anything given the chance; chains is so utterly underpowered as a damaging skill, you might as well just Light attack instead as that is also free and can be spammed.

Brrrofski wrote: »

The fact is, ZOS don't know how to balance the game separately.

A lot of pve nerfs are because of pve.

I assume you meant to say PvP nerfs happen because of PvE, because nerfs in pve because of pve are exactly what should be happening. And I agree, neither side benefits from being chained to the other.

Brrrofski wrote: »

I don't want tank nerfs. I run vet dungeons on a tank build that can do decent dps (like 20k), buff the group and not need a healer for most content. I love playing that build.

BUT, why can I make a build that does that? That can be the only surviving member of the group in vet Scalecaller last boss from 34% and still complete the right? Nothing I use on that build has anything to do with PvP, and none of the things I use cause any imbalance issues in pvp.

Why can you be the only surviving member? ...Because you built the character to survive? Or are you saying that you don't think you should have been able to complete the fight? Tanks need some damage, doing literally zero would be absurd.

Brrrofski wrote: »

Alchemist was nerfed be wise of pvp, yes. It had way too much power for ganking. But all these other sets being changed are not be wise of that.

7th legion does not work on a ganker, who are usually night blades. Firstly, casting an armor ability pulls you out of stealth. Secondly, it would provide way less potential damage output than other sets for ganking.

Why wouldn't it work? You pop the buff, you swap, you use your other buffs, you cloak, and then you run up and blow some poor level 17 father of 3 who has 2 hours to spend on the weekends trying out the game and just needed some tickets to smithereens. Seventh Legion lasted 15 seconds, and 341 weapon damage is a decent chunk of change.

Brrrofski wrote: »

And yes, ZOS put a note about senche's bite. But I guarantee you, they have no clue what they're on about. No ganker is using this, and nobody I actually know is using this in pvp. So if that is a pvp change, it was completely unwarranted.

I have no idea who would use this in PvE either, it seems underpowered. It was probably just a balance pass made as a preventative measure. Perhaps a Bosmer Nightblade bow build could have used it.

Brrrofski wrote: »

And these have impacted pvp. With 7th, I now need to run into a fight, hit someone, then cast an armor ability. At that point I could have lost my burst window. I'm not talking about ganking either. Just any build. I want all my buffs up before engaging.

Same with armor master. As a magblade, I keep my shield up and that buff up outside of combat when approaching a keep, to lower people's hank potential on me. That's gone too now.

Armor master was 100% not nerfed because of PvE, I can tell you that, no DPS would have touched it because they don't make big DPS number get bigger, and no tank would have touched it because they would probably have been required to run a million other pre-buff sets to increase their group's DPS instead.

Eedat wrote: »

You complain about PvPers throwing blame at PvEers while doing the exact thing you're complaining about in reverse. You don't bridge the gap by being overtly hostile to one side. You can claim you do both all you want but it's extremely obvious you've picked a side and belittling and hurl insults at the other.

What proof do you provide that the changes are even aimed at PvP? What proof do you provide that people don't tank in PUGs because they think tanks are weak? We never fail to have a tank in an organized trial guild. I can tell you the reason I don't tank in PUG finder is because I can't bear being drug through a dungeon with a combined 15k dps. It has absolutely zero to do with me thinking tanks are weak or strong.

Stygian, Clever Alchemist, Balorgh, Seventh Legion- these are all sets used pretty much exclusively in PvP by gankers and bombers, which people have a tendency to complain about as they are generally seen as unfair. Clever Alchemist literally has
Developer documentation stating it was exclusively being used to one-shot from stealth, Stygian is tailor-made for Nightblades, and it's very clear ZOS has been looking to reduce burst in PvP for a while now, between the changes to Crystal Frags, Snipe, Solar Flare, and now these sets; people getting one-shot is not a good look for them and leads to people either quitting the game in frustration or giving the game a bad rap. And my entire point is that I am frustrated with the current state of the game and would like to see the two sides of the game split up to be balanced separately.

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

If you pay close attention, you'll find that the game is going very much uphill. We're getting giant frog enemies, and a netch hat has been datamined.

I take it all back, the game is saved! HUZZAH!