Armor penalties have no place in this game?

VixxVexx

You introduce 21 new percentage-based modifiers on armor weights in the exact same patch you try to reduce these with the CP rework.
All on 3 passives, bruh.

1. Limit each armor skill line to 5 passives for performance and clarity. You give roll cost reduction to Light but Medium already has this, makes no sense?
2. Get rid of armor penalties. This isn't a tabletop game or Skyrim Online, it's an MMO. That's not how armor choice works in this game.
3. No more mag/stam split bonuses, you seem to be moving in this direction. Ex: Give the Agility passive Spell Damage and make the Concertation passive Armor Penetration.

Builds revolve around choice. You decide between different sources of sustain, damage and defense. You try to find a balance/mixture and see how much damage you can put into your build with the minimum amount of sustain required while still having decent survivability. This is how enchants, traits, sets, mundus stones work. Extend this to armor weights, give each weight something it excels in and something it doesn't do very well.



Don't get my started on syntax consistency. Sometimes it's "equipped", other times it's "worn". Dodge Roll or Roll Dodge?

Sangwyne

I personally think that armor penalties are reasonable for PvP specifically. I don't like that these changes were hammered through as a one-size fits all nerf to Light and Heavy armor users despite tanks in PvE already being in a precarious position. The penalties to Heavy and Light armor should have been done through Battle Spirit or made to apply in PvP only; who really cares if another player wearing Heavy armor has smaller detection radius in PvE? Or that someone in Heavy armor is able to roll dodge for less stamina? If anything, I would assume that PvE players would want their tanks in a dungeon to be able to sneak past enemies along with them to speed run dungeons, to be able to roll dodge more during fights, and to be able to Sprint faster to get to the next group of mobs and tank more magic damage. ZOS mentioned Medium didn't get any penalties because it had less sharp bonuses, so why does Medium have 5 bonuses to Heavy's 4 when Heavy already had the most penalties? The block cost reduction on Medium should have been moved to Heavy armor, it makes sense that Heavy armor would naturally absorb more of the force of the blow.

selig_fay

My guess is that this is planned as a medium tank played in a completely different way than a heavy tank. Heavy tanks get more resists, so it is very likely that builds will appear where the block is not the main tanking tool (yes, forget about the block and be free). On the other hand, a medium tank will need a block, but will receive more damage and utilities. However, some classes can benefit more from heavy armor than from medium. For example warden benefits a lot from hp and already has great utility. Throw in a stage 4 vampire and you have stealth that doesn't require medium armor.
But I agree with the person who says that we can have both versions of the armor.

Scardan

MMOs are build on some principles of tabletop games (classes, roles, appearance, limitations, specialisations etc), how being online game automatically excludes standard rules of armor balancing?

Araneae6537

I don’t see the logic of heavy armor being penalized against magicka damage. Dodge roll and stealth make sense, as does giving improved stealth to light armor. Otherwise, I think I generally agree with OP.

Sandman929

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I don’t see the logic of heavy armor being penalized against magicka damage. Dodge roll and stealth make sense, as does giving improved stealth to light armor. Otherwise, I think I generally agree with OP.

The only reason the heavy armor penalty against magicka damage exists is because the light armor penalty against physical makes sense and ZOS wanted the weights to be opposite-ish...for some reason.

Sandman929

Sandman929 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I don’t see the logic of heavy armor being penalized against magicka damage. Dodge roll and stealth make sense, as does giving improved stealth to light armor. Otherwise, I think I generally agree with OP.

The only reason the heavy armor penalty against magicka damage exists is because the light armor penalty against physical makes sense and ZOS wanted the weights to be opposite-ish...for some reason.

Actually, scratch this, because like armor actually makes you weaker against physical than no armor...so that doesn't make sense either really.

Araneae6537

Sandman929 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I don’t see the logic of heavy armor being penalized against magicka damage. Dodge roll and stealth make sense, as does giving improved stealth to light armor. Otherwise, I think I generally agree with OP.

The only reason the heavy armor penalty against magicka damage exists is because the light armor penalty against physical makes sense and ZOS wanted the weights to be opposite-ish...for some reason.

Yeah, that’s a very poor reason and dumb to just make it opposite — light armor has other benefits.

Sandman929 wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I don’t see the logic of heavy armor being penalized against magicka damage. Dodge roll and stealth make sense, as does giving improved stealth to light armor. Otherwise, I think I generally agree with OP.

The only reason the heavy armor penalty against magicka damage exists is because the light armor penalty against physical makes sense and ZOS wanted the weights to be opposite-ish...for some reason.

Actually, scratch this, because like armor actually makes you weaker against physical than no armor...so that doesn't make sense either really.

A very good point! I hadn’t realized that. How does wearing armor make you more vulnerable to an attack??? It should be more like OP suggested — light armor costs the least resources, doesn’t hinder stealth or movement etc. but provides the least defense, especially physical. At the other end, heavy armor would incur penalties to stealth and speed but provide the best physical protection. Maybe magical protection should be in the realm of enchantments and magical abilities rather than armor weight? Regardless, there should be resistance penalties for wearing armor; that’s just dumb.

Eirikir

I know as a ww me and my wolf PvP group have already had a talk or two about how we are going to go full ham on any mage we find just because it'll be more efficient during farming.

My medium build vs light armor is really unfair to mages. Now tanks may say the same about vamps and mages but as fine tuned as ww is its gonna be a blood bath. #magesupport

danno8

Sandman929 wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I don’t see the logic of heavy armor being penalized against magicka damage. Dodge roll and stealth make sense, as does giving improved stealth to light armor. Otherwise, I think I generally agree with OP.

The only reason the heavy armor penalty against magicka damage exists is because the light armor penalty against physical makes sense and ZOS wanted the weights to be opposite-ish...for some reason.

Actually, scratch this, because like armor actually makes you weaker against physical than no armor...so that doesn't make sense either really.

Yeah if they wanted to go the route of light being less effective against martial attacks, they probably should have made martial attacks penetrate light by a flat amount per piece, rather than by an increase in damage.

As it stands assuming another player has enough penetration to get through all your armor, you would actually take less damage by removing it completely to avoid the additional 7% damage from 7 light.

Weird.

QuebraRegra

whut? naked is more armor than light armor?

*shakes head*

somebody wake up ZOS.. again.

Faded

VixxVexx wrote: »

[*] Get rid of armor penalties. This isn't a tabletop game or Skyrim Online, it's an MMO. That's not how armor choice works in this game.

It is now.

kojou

If they would have asked me, I would have wanted % modifiers based on the number of pieces of each armor type. For example:

When you are "naked" you have 100% speed, but each piece of armor reduces your speed by a %. Light armor = 1%, medium Armor = 2%, Heavy Armor = 3% or something along that line. They would also deplete your stamina when rolling, sprinting, and sneaking along the same line where your lowest stamina cost would be when "naked." They of course would have defense benefits that would scale in the same direction as well where heavy has the most defense to justify the costs to speed and sustain.

But they didn't ask me...

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Echoing what everyone else has said here... the fact that light "armour" will be literally less defensible than your bare skin is utterly baffling. I seem to also recall a time when classes themselves had built in counters to other classes... and where are those skills now? Gutted. So what makes zos think this cute little gimmick of rock paper scissors is going to work now? It's ridiculous. Especially ridiculous in that these are clearly pvp changes that are also being foisted on pve.

umagon

I think zos only created the expanded penalties bonuses system to expand their “kiss-curse” mechanics. Seeing they push to create so many new sets every major patch they are exhausting sets’ effect combinations. I am willing to bet come the full chapter release we will start to see sets that will increase/decrease/add to the penalties/bonuses at the cost of something else. They are going put more kiss-curse in players’ kiss-curse so we can kiss-curse while we kiss-curse.

Araneae6537

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Echoing what everyone else has said here... the fact that light "armour" will be literally less defensible than your bare skin is utterly baffling. I seem to also recall a time when classes themselves had built in counters to other classes... and where are those skills now? Gutted. So what makes zos think this cute little gimmick of rock paper scissors is going to work now? It's ridiculous. Especially ridiculous in that these are clearly pvp changes that are also being foisted on pve.

I don’t want to see it in PvP any more than in PvE! It was never heavy armor that was a problem but that certain abilities and sets let people have maximal defense and still do significant damage.

@kojou that system is too elegant and logical! 😝

DreadDaedroth

It doesn't make sense that only 2 armour tipes get penalties, and introducing them makes the game only less fun and more frustrating.

Deep_01

Armor less defensible than skin!? Doesnt armor provide spell and physical resist for every piece equipped!?

Scardan

Araneae6537 wrote: »

How does wearing armor make you more vulnerable to an attack???

Light "armour" is simply an enchanted garment, particles of which enter the wound and cause terrible inflammation.

selig_fay

I would swap the bonuses for heavy armor for more ranged damage, but taking less melee damage and inverting that rule for light. This would be explained by the fact that the light provides more mobility, which provides an advantage in ranged combat.
Heavy have more utility in melee combat, but less mobility. And medium is medium. The only question that remains is which distance is considered to be close combat and which is ranged.

Luckylancer

Sangwyne wrote: »

ZOS mentioned Medium didn't get any penalties because it had less sharp bonuses, so why does Medium have 5 bonuses to Heavy's 4 when Heavy already had the most penalties?

Because number of bonuses doesnt matter a bit. Only power level and impact of bonuses matters.

-Medium armor bonuses are joke. AoE damage readuction is solid and MS bonus is decent.

-Light armor bonuses are huge. They will have a lot less stamina issues. LA have all the usefull stuff about stamina costing stuff.

-Heavy have a bit better bonuses than medium and some big negatives for PvP. THey are anoyances for PvE, which is still bad.

But keep in mind HA have 2 times better armor than ligh and we should keep it in mind while we make comparisons. Other bonuses are slighly nerfed for everyone.

Tyrobag

I have no issue with the basic implementation of penalties for armor types (though I agree that maybe they should do them differently). The problem is that that makes no sense when there's already no choice in what armor you wear. Sure, now you can do different combos, but overall its going to stay the same: Mag = Light (often w/ 1 H & 1 M for undaunted passive), Stam = Med, Tank = Heavy (again sometimes with a slight mix). You shouldn't have penalties for wearing armor that you really didn't choose to wear. They need to fix the armor passives to apply for both the Mag and Stam equivalents for their buffs.

ealdwin

Tyrobag wrote: »

I have no issue with the basic implementation of penalties for armor types (though I agree that maybe they should do them differently). The problem is that that makes no sense when there's already no choice in what armor you wear. Sure, now you can do different combos, but overall its going to stay the same: Mag = Light (often w/ 1 H & 1 M for undaunted passive), Stam = Med, Tank = Heavy (again sometimes with a slight mix). You shouldn't have penalties for wearing armor that you really didn't choose to wear. They need to fix the armor passives to apply for both the Mag and Stam equivalents for their buffs.

Agreed. They're implementing these bonuses and penalties under the pretense of adding more impact to choice. But that choice still remains an illusion.

IMO, they need to hybridize at least the damage providing passives on Light and Medium armor, with a slight alteration regarding crit values.

Light Armor = Hard-Hitting Damage. Each piece (via passives) adds a flat bonus to Spell & Weapon Penetration, and a 2% increase to Spell and Weapon Critical, increasing ability for attacks to hit harder more often.

Medium Armor = Sustained Damage. Each piece (via passives) adds a flat bonus to Spell & Weapon Damage, and a 1% increase to Spell and Weapon Critical, allowing attacks to hit for more damage at a more consistent rate.

That way, when looking from a DD perspective (esp. in PVP), both Mag and Stam would have the option of choosing between different damage types at the caveat of gaining or losing armor rating. If Stam would like more Penetration or Crit, they'll have to give up defense. If mag would like more armor, they'll have to lose out on some Penetration and Crit. And choosing Heavy Armor means losing out on Damage, Penetration, and Crit.

Note: This wouldn't mean implementing Stamina LA sets or Magicka MA sets, as those could still be achieved through the few sets that come in all weights and through crafted sets. This would just be hybridizing the passives.

Then go further and add through either bonuses or passives unique benefits for each type of armor, allowing each to truly have an impact on player choice. For example:

Light Armor = Arcane Aptitude (Mage), where each piece has a bonus to enchantment potency and strength of damage shields.

Medium Armor = Stealthy Aptitude (Thief), where each piece has a bonus to the ability to sneak and move in an agile manner.

Heavy Armor = Martial Aptitude (Warrior), where each piece has a bonus to your steadiness in combat bolstering bash damage and blocking amount.

Note: ___ Aptitude isn't a passive or bonus name, just words I strung together to provide an idea and feel to what I'm trying to suggest.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Scardan wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

How does wearing armor make you more vulnerable to an attack???

Light "armour" is simply an enchanted garment, particles of which enter the wound and cause terrible inflammation.

So because of... particles... then light armour should be less defensible than skin.... Hmmm. I should probably reconsider wearing shirt and pants in real life next time I do anything that might scratch me then.

Shantu

With resistances, or lack thereof, baked into armor, it's hard to understand the logic of further penalizing players for their armor choice. All this stuff, IMO, is needlessly over the top.

Gabriel_H

Sandman929 wrote: »

Actually, scratch this, because like armor actually makes you weaker against physical than no armor...so that doesn't make sense either really.

No it doesn't. No armour = 0 Physical Res. Light Armour = More than 0 physical resist. Plus the armour penalty is not an additive, it is a multiplactive.

Gabriel_H

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

So because of... particles... then light armour should be less defensible than skin.... Hmmm. I should probably reconsider wearing shirt and pants in real life next time I do anything that might scratch me then.

Light armour has an armour value. Skin does not.

Tyrobag

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

So because of... particles... then light armour should be less defensible than skin.... Hmmm. I should probably reconsider wearing shirt and pants in real life next time I do anything that might scratch me then.

Light armour has an armour value. Skin does not.

The problem comes into play when something penetrates your armor. The damage increase will still apply. What it should do is reduce your physical resistance by a % instead. This way wearing light armor will slightly bog down your defense, including other armor types you wear, but wont cause weird situations like being better off naked if your resistance is reduced.

Gabriel_H

Tyrobag wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

So because of... particles... then light armour should be less defensible than skin.... Hmmm. I should probably reconsider wearing shirt and pants in real life next time I do anything that might scratch me then.

Light armour has an armour value. Skin does not.

The problem comes into play when something penetrates your armor. The damage increase will still apply. What it should do is reduce your physical resistance by a % instead. This way wearing light armor will slightly bog down your defense, including other armor types you wear, but wont cause weird situations like being better off naked if your resistance is reduced.

But that's still making the false presumption that No armour is better than some armour. There is no situation where that is the case.

validifyedneb18_ESO

I think they are reasonable if slightly edging towards a rock/paper/scissors system where magic builds get crushed by melee 1shots, and magic builds are best suited to take down tanks.

But it offers potential flexability to help deal with some of the bad meta problems like heavy armor more subtly than just ramping up damage massively and ending up with everyone in heavy armor

Castagere

I was watching some videos about the new cp warfare tree. They have something in there to boost your resistances or penalties to attacks I think. If true won't that just kill the penalties?