Stygian vs Clever Alchemist

Sleevez340

"These buffs are no longer retained if you unequip the number of pieces required to activate them:
Balorg
Stygian"

Does this mean you can no longer back bar stygian? Or is this a reference to people buffing it and then taking it off with alpha gear? Im not sure because youve lumped it in with Balorgh which would clearly need to be unequipped to lose the bonus.

So if it is no longer back bar able, then why is clever alchemist not given the same treatment? Youve taken so much away from Magblades already, why take one of the only good back bar damage sets? Even with this the damage is still not as high as any other mag calss add in the face that all our skills can be dodge rolled because they have massive cues with terrible animations. And terrible defense, yes cloak we have cloak. But, youve also made sure every other class has access to spammable aoe, self buff aoe, gap closers, even beam and heavy ticks pull you out because they deal damage after you cloak.

Oops this turned into a rant. My bad, i just wanna keep stygian. Please advise.

Anyron

I think they made it because while you can have 100% uptime on stygian, you can still backbar it. 15seconds is long time to do some damage and then re-aply it without issue which was making this set much stronger than, compared to clever alchemist when you have just brief time to have more spell/weapon damage.

You can build clever alchemist to have almost 100% uptime, but at cost of more potions and sacrifice of 832 spell damage (infused jewel. enchants) in order to get 804 spell damage (as you can see it isnt really worth it)

If you compare set strength of stygian and clever alchemist, you can clearly see stygian is even more stronger, without drawback of sacrifice your jewelry enchants.
Clever alchemist gives you 804 spell damage with 25s cooldown (44% uptime) while stygian 627 spell damage with no cooldown (100% uptime)

So while these sets work in same way, there are other things to keep in mind while comparing sets strength. Stygian is much stronger than clever alchemist so thats why it got this treatment while clever alchemist doesnt

Its time to fix magblade by looking on class, not sets that carry them.

Firstmep

Erm what?
Weapon swapping doesn't de-equip your backbar weapon.
You can for example still proc backbar enchants on your frontbar.

iksde

Anyron wrote: »

Its time to fix magblade by looking on class, not sets that carry them.

yea it is time to fix it, like stamplar to be more than just jab spam but it is also funny said about "not sets to carry them" like every other or atleast most classes in PvP are not carried by proc sets at all while taying tanky af and NB with stygian here is literally nothing in eyes of rest tanky with proc sets classes here
IMO NB here with stygian is the only or maybe just one of 2-3 options viable to do something else than just build up for unkillable killing machine via LA for procs to kill

Langeston

Yeah, this change is just straight up garbage.

Literally no one was complaining about magblades running Stygian — they're basically 100% harmless against even the most average stam toon. Meanwhile sets like Crimson Twilight, Unfathomable Darkness, Vateshran Destro, Frenzied Momentum, Unleashed Terror, Syvarra's Scales, Venomous Smite, etc. have countless posts complaining about them, yet those sets went completely untouched while Stygian gets nerfed into the ground.

This was the straw that broke the camel's back for me — I haven't been on the PTS since week one, and I have no intention of paying any more money for this game. The only class I truly enjoy playing just keeps on getting directly & indirectly nerfed at every turn & I've had enough. I've lost any faith I had in ZOS' ability [or inclination] to make magblade a viable PVP class.

I've been playing Dishonored lately, and even though it's single player & I'm comparing apples & oranges, at least all my skills work properly. I honestly forgot what that was like.

YandereGirlfriend

Usually it's PvP that gets all the angst for calling in the nerfbat but this is strictly a PvE special.

We can thank trials groups for cheesing this and attracting the Eye of Sauron's gaze.

(That said, has anyone actually confirmed through testing that this set effect expires on the back-bar or is it simply an assumption?)

Anyron

iksde wrote: »

Anyron wrote: »

Its time to fix magblade by looking on class, not sets that carry them.

yea it is time to fix it, like stamplar to be more than just jab spam but it is also funny said about "not sets to carry them" like every other or atleast most classes in PvP are not carried by proc sets at all while taying tanky af and NB with stygian here is literally nothing in eyes of rest tanky with proc sets classes here
IMO NB here with stygian is the only or maybe just one of 2-3 options viable to do something else than just build up for unkillable killing machine via LA for procs to kill

I never said i agree with stygian nerf. He asked why and i just said why i think they did it.

Langeston

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Usually it's PvP that gets all the angst for calling in the nerfbat but this is strictly a PvE special.

We can thank trials groups for cheesing this and attracting the Eye of Sauron's gaze.

(That said, has anyone actually confirmed through testing that this set effect expires on the back-bar or is it simply an assumption?)

Yes, that was the first thing I checked on week one of the PTS after reading the notes — it definitely does not work as a back bar set anymore.

Actually that was one of the only things I've checked, since I've pretty much lost interest in trying to make magblade work in PVP anymore. I used to look forward to patch notes, now I just dread them. During this last patch, Stygian was my go-to set for most of my builds. I have 3 golded out sets, one for each of my 3 magblades (all gold jewelry transmuted to Swift, the works) — and now they're all worthless. What a joke.

How was PVE cheesing it? I can't imagine this set being useful to anyone but PVP magblades.

Doczy

im curious about medium stygian hybrid with cp2

Firstmep

So it's been tested that if you swap away from stygian you lose the bonus?
Beacuse de equipping doesn't mean the same as swapping away from it.

Chilly-McFreeze

Firstmep wrote: »

So it's been tested that if you swap away from stygian you lose the bonus?
Beacuse de equipping doesn't mean the same as swapping away from it.

What Langston said. I just made a quick check and it doesn't carry over. Questionable decision.

ExistingRug61

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

So it's been tested that if you swap away from stygian you lose the bonus?
Beacuse de equipping doesn't mean the same as swapping away from it.

What Langston said. I just made a quick check and it doesn't carry over. Questionable decision.

Yeah that seems really weird to make it drop off on bar swap.
I can understand making it drop off if you actually unequip the set, but bar swapping?

There are countless sets that work similarly by having a trigger for a temporary effect - Seventh, Briarheart, Spellweave, Scathing, Lich etc all jump to mind. How is this any different to those?

The only thing I can see is that Stygian can be triggered out of combat whereas the others generally have a trigger that requires you to be in combat. So the only extra exploit I see versus all those options is that you can unequip it after triggering the effect. But again, this could be address simply by making it drop off from unequip only and not bar swap.

Chilly-McFreeze

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

So it's been tested that if you swap away from stygian you lose the bonus?
Beacuse de equipping doesn't mean the same as swapping away from it.

What Langston said. I just made a quick check and it doesn't carry over. Questionable decision.

Yeah that seems really weird to make it drop off on bar swap.
I can understand making it drop off if you actually unequip the set, but bar swapping?

There are countless sets that work similarly by having a trigger for a temporary effect - Seventh, Briarheart, Spellweave, Scathing, Lich etc all jump to mind. How is this any different to those?

The only thing I can see is that Stygian can be triggered out of combat whereas the others generally have a trigger that requires you to be in combat. So the only extra exploit I see versus all those options is that you can unequip it after triggering the effect. But again, this could be address simply by making it drop off from unequip only and not bar swap.

Either this or their beloved solution of "only works in combat".

ExistingRug61

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

So it's been tested that if you swap away from stygian you lose the bonus?
Beacuse de equipping doesn't mean the same as swapping away from it.

What Langston said. I just made a quick check and it doesn't carry over. Questionable decision.

Yeah that seems really weird to make it drop off on bar swap.
I can understand making it drop off if you actually unequip the set, but bar swapping?

There are countless sets that work similarly by having a trigger for a temporary effect - Seventh, Briarheart, Spellweave, Scathing, Lich etc all jump to mind. How is this any different to those?

The only thing I can see is that Stygian can be triggered out of combat whereas the others generally have a trigger that requires you to be in combat. So the only extra exploit I see versus all those options is that you can unequip it after triggering the effect. But again, this could be address simply by making it drop off from unequip only and not bar swap.

Either this or their beloved solution of "only works in combat".

Yeah I was thinking maybe that as well, but then I thought it might mean you don’t get the buff when you first attack from stealth, as I’m not sure if you count as in combat at the point when you first leave stealth in this case.

Chilly-McFreeze

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

So it's been tested that if you swap away from stygian you lose the bonus?
Beacuse de equipping doesn't mean the same as swapping away from it.

What Langston said. I just made a quick check and it doesn't carry over. Questionable decision.

Yeah that seems really weird to make it drop off on bar swap.
I can understand making it drop off if you actually unequip the set, but bar swapping?

There are countless sets that work similarly by having a trigger for a temporary effect - Seventh, Briarheart, Spellweave, Scathing, Lich etc all jump to mind. How is this any different to those?

The only thing I can see is that Stygian can be triggered out of combat whereas the others generally have a trigger that requires you to be in combat. So the only extra exploit I see versus all those options is that you can unequip it after triggering the effect. But again, this could be address simply by making it drop off from unequip only and not bar swap.

Either this or their beloved solution of "only works in combat".

Yeah I was thinking maybe that as well, but then I thought it might mean you don’t get the buff when you first attack from stealth, as I’m not sure if you count as in combat at the point when you first leave stealth in this case.

Currently, if you aren't in combat and gank someone it won't buff your first attack either. Even if you doublebar it.

Firstmep

I'm thinking this might be a bug, de equipping a piece of equipment is not the same as swapping away from a bar where it's 5pc is active.
Case in point, CA.

exeeter702

That has to be a bug tbh.

This change has nothing to do with bar swapping and is purely targeted at people gaming the system by gaining duration effect before a fight starts and equipping a new set to gain unintended power gains for x amount of seconds at the start of an encounter.

Bar swapping to activate set bonuses has nothing to do with this and if that is in fact the case, something is broken.

Sleevez340

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

So it's been tested that if you swap away from stygian you lose the bonus?
Beacuse de equipping doesn't mean the same as swapping away from it.

What Langston said. I just made a quick check and it doesn't carry over. Questionable decision.

Yeah that seems really weird to make it drop off on bar swap.
I can understand making it drop off if you actually unequip the set, but bar swapping?

There are countless sets that work similarly by having a trigger for a temporary effect - Seventh, Briarheart, Spellweave, Scathing, Lich etc all jump to mind. How is this any different to those?

The only thing I can see is that Stygian can be triggered out of combat whereas the others generally have a trigger that requires you to be in combat. So the only extra exploit I see versus all those options is that you can unequip it after triggering the effect. But again, this could be address simply by making it drop off from unequip only and not bar swap.

Either this or their beloved solution of "only works in combat".

Yeah I was thinking maybe that as well, but then I thought it might mean you don’t get the buff when you first attack from stealth, as I’m not sure if you count as in combat at the point when you first leave stealth in this case.

Currently, if you aren't in combat and gank someone it won't buff your first attack either. Even if you doublebar it.

This is inaccurate. It will buff if you are idle and come out of cloak.

Sleevez340

@ZOS_GinaBruno Can we confirm if stygian back bar is supposed to work, or intended not to? If it's intended not to then let's be fair here and cut all back bar sets from working. Like briar, clever, seventh legion, soulshine... I could go on but you get the point.

Chilly-McFreeze

Sleevez340 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

So it's been tested that if you swap away from stygian you lose the bonus?
Beacuse de equipping doesn't mean the same as swapping away from it.

What Langston said. I just made a quick check and it doesn't carry over. Questionable decision.

Yeah that seems really weird to make it drop off on bar swap.
I can understand making it drop off if you actually unequip the set, but bar swapping?

There are countless sets that work similarly by having a trigger for a temporary effect - Seventh, Briarheart, Spellweave, Scathing, Lich etc all jump to mind. How is this any different to those?

The only thing I can see is that Stygian can be triggered out of combat whereas the others generally have a trigger that requires you to be in combat. So the only extra exploit I see versus all those options is that you can unequip it after triggering the effect. But again, this could be address simply by making it drop off from unequip only and not bar swap.

Either this or their beloved solution of "only works in combat".

Yeah I was thinking maybe that as well, but then I thought it might mean you don’t get the buff when you first attack from stealth, as I’m not sure if you count as in combat at the point when you first leave stealth in this case.

Currently, if you aren't in combat and gank someone it won't buff your first attack either. Even if you doublebar it.

This is inaccurate. It will buff if you are idle and come out of cloak.

[E: tests were done on PTS - for clarification]
It's what I tested on a dummy. Got 3 stygian jewels. Tested with precise 2h greatsword on frontbar. Exchanged for Bright Troats 2h bc it both would grant a line of max mag.

Test a) Bright Troats 2h sword. Idle, cloak, veiled strike. Got around 3.4k dmg.
Test b) Styg 2h sword. Idle, cloak, veiled strike. Got around 3.4k dmg.
Test c) BT 2h. Idle, cloak, light attack, veiled strike. 3.4k dmg on veiled.
Test d) Styg 2h. Idle, cloak, light attack, veiled strike. 3.7k on veiled.

Feel free to redo the test.

To be clear here, it is about if it's buffs your first attack. It doesn't do now but because of a different reason. I think it's because stygian buffs you AFTER you leave cloak. So it won't buff the first hit as it counts as still cloaked maybe.

BTW nice try to make each and every backbar set worthless bc one set gets the shaft.

Sleevez340

I run stygian with back bar infused resto, so I always start with a cloakpoke and it always works. However. I have tested and seen the buff many times just from standing in town and hitting cloak and letting it expire.

Chilly-McFreeze

Sleevez340 wrote: »

I run stygian with back bar infused resto, so I always start with a cloakpoke and it always works. However. I have tested and seen the buff many times just from standing in town and hitting cloak and letting it expire.

To clarify. I didn't said it currently doesn't buff you if you're out of combat. I said it doesn't buff the first attack from cloak on PTS.
The "only in combat" thingy was my suggestion to prevent "pre fight buffing" instead of the current solution. As it seems that is what ZOS wants to stop us from doing when I take a look at eg Clever Alchemist and 7th Legion.

Sleevez340

My bad, I didn't realize you meant on the pts. When you said "currently" I thought you meant live.

ExistingRug61

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

So it's been tested that if you swap away from stygian you lose the bonus?
Beacuse de equipping doesn't mean the same as swapping away from it.

What Langston said. I just made a quick check and it doesn't carry over. Questionable decision.

Yeah that seems really weird to make it drop off on bar swap.
I can understand making it drop off if you actually unequip the set, but bar swapping?

There are countless sets that work similarly by having a trigger for a temporary effect - Seventh, Briarheart, Spellweave, Scathing, Lich etc all jump to mind. How is this any different to those?

The only thing I can see is that Stygian can be triggered out of combat whereas the others generally have a trigger that requires you to be in combat. So the only extra exploit I see versus all those options is that you can unequip it after triggering the effect. But again, this could be address simply by making it drop off from unequip only and not bar swap.

Either this or their beloved solution of "only works in combat".

Yeah I was thinking maybe that as well, but then I thought it might mean you don’t get the buff when you first attack from stealth, as I’m not sure if you count as in combat at the point when you first leave stealth in this case.

Currently, if you aren't in combat and gank someone it won't buff your first attack either. Even if you doublebar it.

Yeah I assumed that, but what I wasn't sure of was if adding an in combat check would mean you wouldn't get the buff at all in this case (ie: for all the subsequent attacks within 15sec), as I though perhaps the "coming out of cloak" part might happen before you are "in combat", meaning you miss the trigger entirely.

ie: I wasn't sure if the order of events on the first attack was
first attack>decloak>in combat
OR
first attack>in combat>decloak

I assumed the first attack wouldn't get the buff, but depending on which of the above the order is would mean adding an in combat check would potentially mean you don't get the buff at all.
It may also depend on if the attack has a travel time as well, as I think you decloak on cast, but maybe only enter combat when it "hits". This would mean that you could decloak from the cast before it hits and then are in combat, and hence miss the trigger for the buff entirely if there is an "in combat" check, so you wouldn't get it at all for the subsequent attacks either.

Chilly-McFreeze

You're right. The in combat check could be an issue. If I have time I will do some digging when combat starts. I guess when the first strike connects, but that's just gut feeling.

If I had it my way, I'd let it stay as on live: no combat check, back bar potential. 369 spell damage on a medium armor set isn't a game breaker by all means, even if you can easily archieve a high uptime.

ExistingRug61

Yeah I don't see why you shouldn't be able to backbar it. It's no different to many other backbar-able sets really (and I wouldn't want to see them become un-backbar-able). I think it just needs to have the buff removed if its actually unequipped if that is what is leading to PvE cheese (I assume this was the motivation for this change).

But then, maybe the game currently can't differentiate between unequiped vs not currently active (ie: backbar), ie: maybe it only ever checks the 12 active pieces, so being on backbar is the same as being unequipped. So maybe this was the only way they could think to do it simply. But even in that case, is it worth significantly compromising a set's intended potential just because of slight cheese potential? I'd hope not.

Dunkelblitz

Has someone approved whether Stygian is working on backbar or not with update 29?

Sleevez340

It no longer works as a backbar set. Which is totally insane because every other set works. It provides alot of damage, but it provides nothing else.

ThePedge

Unfortunately this is nerfed because of magblade in PvP, which is probably the weakest PvP spec in existence. However they can get 100% uptime easily with Shadowy Disguise.

Sets like Clever Alch have long downtime.

A better solution imo would be to do the same as Seventh Legion and make it only proc in combat.

While I disagree with that change (Seventh Legion), it is far better than the treatment Stygian received.

Chilly-McFreeze

ThePedge wrote: »

Unfortunately this is nerfed because of magblade in PvP, which is probably the weakest PvP spec in existence. However they can get 100% uptime easily with Shadowy Disguise.

Sets like Clever Alch have long downtime.

A better solution imo would be to do the same as Seventh Legion and make it only proc in combat.

While I disagree with that change (Seventh Legion), it is far better than the treatment Stygian received.

If the uptime is an issue they could implement a simple cooldown as in "for 12 seconds, can happen every 15s" and be done with it.