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Damage types as considered by CP 2.0

Wuerstal
Wuerstal
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With the new CP-System coming to live soon it will be more important to know what skill is considered what kind of damage. Is it a single-target, aoe or damage over time ability (Or a mix of multiple of these). While with the old system you tried to balance it out a bit with maybe a few more points in thaumaturge on DK and a bit more of direct damage on idk. Templar. But even if you would go with the same CP the dmg loss would be there, sure, but it wouldn't be dramatic.
With the new CP-System you only get 4 options of slotted abilities. So knowing which skill does what is more crucial.
I did some testing with the system and looked which abilities (or parts of them) are affected by:

a) Biting Aura -> Buffs AoE-Damage
b) Thaumaturge -> Buffs Damage over Time
c) Deadly Aim -> Buffs single-target damage

Spoiler: Most of it makes sense, but there are a few skills I tested that I can't figure out the reasoning behind.

TL;DR at the end.

To examine this we first need to lay some ground rules.
If I am not mistaken (if so pls correct me) the white dmg numbers indicate "direct damage" while smaller orange numbers indicate "damage over time". Direct damage isn't that improtant for this, as the examined CP do not buff direct damage but it is important to see as it is the opposite of damage over time, which is affected.

So what are some expected behaviors of the CP based on the Skill description, their indicator and the "raw gutt feeling".
  • Easy one: Crystal Frags: single-Target ability, no AoE-Effect, DD indicator (so no dot) -> should only be affected by Deadly Aim. And thats the case. Nice.
  • AoEs like: Wall of Elements: AoE, Dot, not single-target -> affected by Biting Aura, Thaumaturge. Perfect.

Then there are some that are a bit inconsistent when compared.
  • Daedric curse: The AoE part of the ability is affected by Biting Aura, the dmg on the target itself is increased by Deadly Aim. Thaumaturg does nothing. which is fine, but if we then look at Sweeps/Jabs it gets confusing. Both skills, curse and jabs, deal direct damage all over. Both have a primary target and secondary targets. Both hit in an AoE. Yet jabs is only buffed by Biting Aura. Both primary hit and secondary hit. Sure, an argument can be made that it is because the AoE of jabs is just there while curse needs a specific target but it doesn't feel intuitive to me. But ok.
  • Flames of Oblivion: indicated as direct damage, skill description has "area" for the target tag, hits 2 enemies. it is buffed by Deadly Aim. I mean, I guess? it doesn't really fit into the other ones either but it explicitly says: hits up to 2 enemies. Thats not SINGLE-target damage. But ok.
Some skills fall into the upper category, where it can be justified why it works like it does but may not be clear from the get-go.

But then there also are some, which I can't get any idea to why it works like it does.
  • Skeletal Arcanist: Skill description says that the arcanist deals damage in an area, so it should be buffed by Biting aura. Damage indicator is white, so direct damage -> Thaumaturge should do nothing. And as it is an AoE, Deadly Aim should have no effect. That is what I get from all the indicators and hints I get. What is actually the case? It gets buffed ONLY by Deadly Aim. It says it right in the skill description that it deals damage in an area, the cast is on an area, yet it is not buffed by the CP-Star that buffes AoE-Damage. What?!
  • Radiant Oppression vs. Soulstrike: They are practically the same skill if we are honest. Both are casted beams that lock onto one target and tick every now and then to deal damage. The funny thing is: Radiant Oppression has direct damage indicators while Soulstrike has dot indicators. Yet, they are both buffed by: Deadly aim and thaumaturge. Thats just inconsistend and confusing.
    Why are there different indicators for these two skills, doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
  • Jabs: If we throw jabs into the mix it just colapses on itself. Jabs has from a feeling the same attributes as radiant oppression. its both direct damage, its a casted ability that ticks every now and then while beeing casted, one is aoe, one is single-target. If we follow the logic of radiant oppression: Jabs has to be buffed by Thaumaturge.
  • Rapid Strikes: It is single target and has dot indicators. Yet it is only affected by Deadly aim. So its not a dot? Why are there dot indicators then? It is practically soulstrike but upclose. So why not the same treatment?
TL;DR: Either damage number indicators are wrong (or I understand them wrong) and skill descriptions should be changed or some skills are missing the buffs from some CP-Stars. As it stands now: Skills like Radiant Oppression, Soulstrike, Jabs, Rapid strikes,.... (there are a few more) do not fit into the system that is currently active on the pts. If it is wanted for the skills to be buffed in the way they are now, ZoS would have to change damage indicators and skill descriptions to better reflect what will actually happen when slotting a specific CP-Star. If some skills are simply lacking buffs, then ZoS needs to be aware of this.
  • Scardan
    Scardan
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    Skeletal Arcanist is single target spell. Maybe because game does not count aoe morphs from single target skills. Idk. Anyway, it is single target and benefit from fire staff xD.
    Let's be extremely precise in our use of terms.
  • virtus753
    virtus753
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    Jabs has long been a matter of “we’re not quite sure what this is exactly but here’s how we’re categorizing it this year.”

    It used to be a DoT (therefore formerly buffed by Thaumaturge) but is now channeled AoE direct damage (buffed by Master-at-Arms in CP 1.0 and by Biting Aura in 2.0). It is therefore correct — according to the devs — that it is only buffed by Biting Aura.

    Categorizing it has a DoT again under this new system would put it in the problematic place Flurry was until the most recent PTS patch: it would be the only spammable able to be buffed twice by the +10% damage nodes in CP 2.0. Instead, both Flurry and Jabs are now less problematically classed as channeled direct damage and so only able to be buffed by one star (Deadly Aim or Biting Aura, respectively), just like the other meta spammables.

    Note that Flurry was deliberately removed from Thaumaturge’s list with this most recent patch. It also doesn’t proc Azureblight. The devs do not consider it a DoT anymore, just like Jabs.

    On the one hand, having labels on these things would make it much easier for us to understand the devs’ intentions and to know if something were bugged, but on the other they wouldn’t make everything logically coherent. To make Jabs and Flurry DoTs — as they appear to you to be — would seriously advantage Jabs and Flurry users in this new system over players and classes that don’t use those spammables. That’s just one of many considerations that has to go into these decisions about classifications.
  • Wuerstal
    Wuerstal
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    virtus753 wrote: »
    On the one hand, having labels on these things would make it much easier for us to understand the devs’ intentions and to know if something were bugged, but on the other they wouldn’t make everything logically coherent. To make Jabs and Flurry DoTs — as they appear to you to be — would seriously advantage Jabs and Flurry users in this new system over players and classes that don’t use those spammables. That’s just one of many considerations that has to go into these decisions about classifications.

    I can totaly see that and I am not directly advocating for jabs beeing buffed by multiple stars. As you pointed out, it would make it so that jabs are benefiting more than spamable skills. My main point was that it just is inconsistant. They shouldn't necceseraly change what skill is affected by which star but rather make it clear what the ability actually is. If they were to make the damage indicators of radiant opression to DoT indicators there would be no problem (alteast for jabs) and make flurry indicators direct damage indicators.
    As it stands now, looking at dmg indicators, flurry should be buffed by thaumaturge. If they don't want that, they should not make DoT indicators for it. Thats just inconsistent..
    I hope i got my point across?
    I am not advocating for buffs (even though templar already wasn't that good and it looks like it will now be even worse), I am advocating for consistency so the players actually know what their skill actually does.
  • Hotdog_23
    Hotdog_23
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    This is one of the main reasons why I really wish ZOS would list what type of damage each skill is in it’s tooltips such as DOT AOE, direct, melee, fir frost bleed etc... Then use the same language in the CP trees. This would help new and old players alike to understand and test. No point in hiding this information when it is a core part of the game.

    Plus, honestly, I think ZOS needs the same information sometimes as well to help them keep it all straight and even if they don’t how do they expect your average player too.

    Stay safe and have fun :)
  • virtus753
    virtus753
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    Wuerstal wrote: »
    virtus753 wrote: »
    On the one hand, having labels on these things would make it much easier for us to understand the devs’ intentions and to know if something were bugged, but on the other they wouldn’t make everything logically coherent. To make Jabs and Flurry DoTs — as they appear to you to be — would seriously advantage Jabs and Flurry users in this new system over players and classes that don’t use those spammables. That’s just one of many considerations that has to go into these decisions about classifications.

    I can totaly see that and I am not directly advocating for jabs beeing buffed by multiple stars. As you pointed out, it would make it so that jabs are benefiting more than spamable skills. My main point was that it just is inconsistant. They shouldn't necceseraly change what skill is affected by which star but rather make it clear what the ability actually is. If they were to make the damage indicators of radiant opression to DoT indicators there would be no problem (alteast for jabs) and make flurry indicators direct damage indicators.
    As it stands now, looking at dmg indicators, flurry should be buffed by thaumaturge. If they don't want that, they should not make DoT indicators for it. Thats just inconsistent..
    I hope i got my point across?
    I am not advocating for buffs (even though templar already wasn't that good and it looks like it will now be even worse), I am advocating for consistency so the players actually know what their skill actually does.

    Yes, and as I said, that part I agree would help us keep track of the categories. But at the same time these changes are obviously done on a individual basis, and it seems fairly common for them to change certain things without categorically updating a skill (e.g. Flurry has not been considered a DoT in over a year and yet was still buffed by Thaumaturge on the PTS until this latest patch). It’s no surprise to me at all if they haven’t updated the color coding to match the skill type when there’s a lot more mixed up behind the scenes. And I agree that’s a problem that deserves attention.

    I also understand where you’re coming from in saying, e.g., that Jabs looks and feels like RD, but I was pointing out there’s an overarching reason why that doesn’t mean Jabs should be buffed by Thaumaturge as you suggested for consistency.
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