Since I joined recently, can you explain the history of Templar nerfs?

Athan1

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

One nerf I may have missed above was to stamplars. Ritual of Retribution used to hurt foes and heal allies. Now it only hurts foes.

Still crying about that, completely ruined the theme of the class.

Psiion

Greetings,

After removing a few posts, we would like to remind everyone that Conspiracy Theories as well as Naming and Shaming are against the Forum's Community Rules and generally non-constructive. Moving forward, please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting.

Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation: We do not tolerate the deliberate and malicious spreading of false info or conspiracy theories about ZeniMax Online Studios, its game(s), or its employees. This does not include honest mistakes; rather, this rule pertains to those who go out of their way to spread harmful or malicious rumors about ZeniMax Online Studios and its employees, or The Elder Scrolls Online.

BejaProphet

I take my post remaining to be a confirmation of my story as established lore rather than conspiracy theory. 😎

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

Just out of curiosity I decided to check on the state of the game. The Templar nerfs, incorrect approach to procsets, are what made me cancel my subscription.

@Joy_Division May remember.

The morrowind Templar changes were my icing on the cake.

You can scroll my posts designated around Templar for a detailed analysis of how horrid the Templar changes were in the past. Theres a reason Joy_Division suggests remaining in an ignorant bliss.

It's very sad to hear this is still an ongoing issue when I succinctly spelled out the problem to the devs on the core issues of Templars.

UppGRAYxDD

ZOS_KageW wrote: »

Greetings,

After removing a few posts, we would like to remind everyone that Conspiracy Theories as well as Naming and Shaming are against the Forum's Community Rules and generally non-constructive. Moving forward, please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting.

Conspiracy Theories and Misinformation: We do not tolerate the deliberate and malicious spreading of false info or conspiracy theories about ZeniMax Online Studios, its game(s), or its employees. This does not include honest mistakes; rather, this rule pertains to those who go out of their way to spread harmful or malicious rumors about ZeniMax Online Studios and its employees, or The Elder Scrolls Online.

#FreeSolarFlare

magnusthorek

danno8 wrote: »

Except my Stamina ones, they seem to be stronger and stronger.

And that's what makes us, Magicka Templars, feel somewhat depressed with our class and playstyle choice

Jman100582

Theres also been a large handful of indirect nerfs. The most notable being the changes to major evasion being dodge chance to instead a flat 20% aoe mitigation. That every medium armor player has access to, and makes them tankier then a heavy armor player in some cases (like if you are a templar for instance). Then there is also the way backlash scales with max resources. A nb can have easily have a 25k spec bow tooltip at all times, and stamdens can essentially have a shalk tooltip thats 30k if you account for both tics. Whereas backlash requires you to constantly beat on someone for 6 seconds for it to deal the equivalent dmg of less than a single sub assault tic. For both morphs. And the way the game works you don't benefit having high resources like you use to. stam benefits from weapon dmg, mag benefits a lot from pen. So...my potl tooltip is usally between 15-17k on my stamplar. The highest potl ive hit on a full dmg stamplar since the "bug fix" was 6k on crit on another player...and my nb struggles to hit less then 10k on crit spec bows. Makes no sense

Athan1

Yeah, unfortunately PotL has been destroyed as a skill, the damage absorption has been nerfed to Oblivion, and the Minor Breach it previously gave (which allowed even healers to run it), is now available everywhere. Generally there are only 1-2 skills that are actually worth using apart from Jabs at present. If I didn't like the class theme, I would have moved on a long time ago.

Grianasteri

Despite the nerfs, these havnt really changed the pvp playstyle for years...

LA, Jabs, LA Jabs, LA, Jabs, LA, Jabs, repeat ad infinitum.

techyeshic

Grianasteri wrote: »

Despite the nerfs, these havnt really changed the pvp playstyle for years...

LA, Jabs, LA Jabs, LA, Jabs, LA, Jabs, repeat ad infinitum.

Which is good damage if your opponent is bad enough to not step to the side. The rest of templar kit is quite bad for damage. Or defense. Or mobility. It's just jabs and ER, with a non-descript burst heal that all but magblade have similar.

gariondavey

techyeshic wrote: »

Grianasteri wrote: »

Despite the nerfs, these havnt really changed the pvp playstyle for years...

LA, Jabs, LA Jabs, LA, Jabs, LA, Jabs, repeat ad infinitum.

Which is good damage if your opponent is bad enough to not step to the side. The rest of templar kit is quite bad for damage. Or defense. Or mobility. It's just jabs and ER, with a non-descript burst heal that all but magblade have similar.

Exactly this

Joy_Division

Grianasteri wrote: »

Despite the nerfs, these havnt really changed the pvp playstyle for years...

LA, Jabs, LA Jabs, LA, Jabs, LA, Jabs, repeat ad infinitum.

Not true. A long time ago, I had to actually think about which 10 skills I wanted to put on my bar because many of them were good and I used all 10 of them to play a well rounded build that rarely hit one skill more than twice in a row and never more than three.

Today, there are only 5 templar skills worth using (charge, Ritual [barely now, I'd rather have Warden's Netch], Sweeps, Breath of life [again barely, HoTs are where it's at and I'd rather have Polar Wind), and the armor buff [which is more mandatory so you dont get hit with 9K Surprise attacks as opposed to actually being good]). So, once this patch ends, I'm once again going to load up on the proc sets and jab jab jab jab because those nerfs have taken away so many other viable playstyle options.

Firstmep

exeeter702 wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Wardens and Necromancers were added to the game. Then mythics. Templars paid the price to make those more appealing/less broken.

This is very disingenuous. You may not be willing to believe this but zos has always had a vision for each of the 4 initial classes be capable of fulfilling the role of a healer. Necromancers and wardens having a more straight forward healing skill line (even moreso than templars restoring light skill line) was simply a design decision to better communicate to new players how healing works with them, than say a NB having its core healing components made viable via passives and morphs of certain skills accross more than a single skill line.

Templars were the dominant healer for many years purely due to their exclusive procession of the single most critical utility for groups in every aspect of the game - giving stamina to allies - at a time where nothing else in the game could do so outside of far weaker outliers like dsa resto staff and later on sentinel of rkugahmz monster set which was meh back then.

People like to pretend that templar was the intended defacto no questions asked healer of eso because they a "dedicated healing skill line" as well as the above vice grip on a key utility that groups needed. The reality was restoring light contained spells that didnt really define templar healers, many of which were analogous to the resto staff options. No one was using prayer over springs spam and combat prayer, the hot value of cleaning ritual weaker than regen and most of the early trials had no critical mandatory use for the purge. Bol was often not even slotted in groups that had the gist of most encounters early on.

Dks shared the privilege of having an on demand major mending with templars (it was a confirmed fact at the time that major mending was given to DKs as an attempt to help dk healers, but that never worked because of how dk tanks would often overwrite the sheild making a dk healer a liability to a group but that is another story altogether).

The fact was that templars were the defacto healers for tools they had that were not even in the restoring light skill line, tools that belonged to skill lines for which tank and dps builds equally utilized.

Sorcs were given matriarch burst heal, NBs were given the single most strongest single target hot in the game(before it was turned into a massive burst heal), dks were given obsidian shard and cauterize and orbs was turned into an alternate version of shards with universal resource return all before warden and necromancer were ever added to the game.

Most of templars nerfs over the years stemmed from pvp performance (blinding flashes, jesus beam etc) and due to natural game balance collateral nerfs (zos taking the overall positive steps in creating more viability in the healer role for all classes and the later morrowind resource sustain overhaul). Many templars were upset that they lost a key identifying aspect of the class when shards and orbs were unionized, especially around a time when groups were going to be even more thirsty for sustain, it was absolutely a sting. And even then there were absolute advantages to each skill. Shards was much quicker and precise, allowing a templar healer to quickly give stamina to tanks or key group member in need but with the draw back that it was one syngery per shards cast, whereas orbs had a much broader application range in that you could give up the GCDs and get multiple orbs out for numerous group members with the disadvantage of have a much slower travel time.

There is a lot of history but it has nothing to do with necromancers, wardens or mythics.

Unless the devs openly admitted to making warden necro "a little bit better" at their respective releases for monetary reasons.
Oh wait..
Also

Joy_Division wrote: »

Grianasteri wrote: »

Despite the nerfs, these havnt really changed the pvp playstyle for years...

LA, Jabs, LA Jabs, LA, Jabs, LA, Jabs, repeat ad infinitum.

Not true. A long time ago, I had to actually think about which 10 skills I wanted to put on my bar because many of them were good and I used all 10 of them to play a well rounded build that rarely hit one skill more than twice in a row and never more than three.

Today, there are only 5 templar skills worth using (charge, Ritual [barely now, I'd rather have Warden's Netch], Sweeps, Breath of life [again barely, HoTs are where it's at and I'd rather have Polar Wind), and the armor buff [which is more mandatory so you dont get hit with 9K Surprise attacks as opposed to actually being good]). So, once this patch ends, I'm once again going to load up on the proc sets and jab jab jab jab because those nerfs have taken away so many other viable playstyle options.

Pretty much. There are just no interesting or high skill options for templars anymore.
There was a time when you only wanted use BOL when on low hp to take advantage of our passives.
There was a time when sun fire was such a good skill, it was a semi decent spammable on top a great dot skill.
There was a time when Backlash actually rewarded being able to stay on people and play into our strength which is supposed to be high pressure.
There was a time when our house actually served as a defensive tool with an aoe snare.
There was a time when dark flare was a hard to land but high reward burst skill.
They have just taken away everything fun from us.
Ppl spam jabs on Templar, Beacuse that's about the extent of what's left of our identity.

Grianasteri

gariondavey wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Grianasteri wrote: »

Despite the nerfs, these havnt really changed the pvp playstyle for years...

LA, Jabs, LA Jabs, LA, Jabs, LA, Jabs, repeat ad infinitum.

Which is good damage if your opponent is bad enough to not step to the side. The rest of templar kit is quite bad for damage. Or defense. Or mobility. It's just jabs and ER, with a non-descript burst heal that all but magblade have similar.

Exactly this

@gariondavey
@techyeshic

I am not really making any comment on the Templar tool kit. My comment is eluding to the regularity with which templar players employ a Jabs/LA focused 1 dimensional style of attack. I made it as much for a wee laugh, as I did to make a valid observation.

I also do not think its as simple as saying stepping aside or avoiding Jabs is easy. Its not as easy as that for a lot of players. Because its pretty easy to follow someones movements as you continue to Jab/LA spam, making it very difficult to escape, especially against a good player. I've done it to others and had it done to me many times.

For the avoidance of doubt, I actually like Templars. I do not like being killed by jabs lol

gariondavey

@Grianasteri

I play in high mmr bgs and do decently, but definitely am not the best. Usually in the top 5 in a bg. A nb or sorc who is equally or more skilled than me will be next to impossible to land jabs on. Anyone with more movement speed than me as well.
When I play on my stamblade alt, stamplars (who are not better than me if I were on my stamplar, but better than I am on my stamblade) land jabs on me a lot.
Investing in speed, and shade, combined with skill, can be almost impossible to lock down.

furiouslog

Joy_Division wrote: »

What's interesting is half of what i wrote there is obsolete and no longer relevant because the game has changed so much.

This wasn't written that long ago. Just shows me zos makes too many dramatic changes too quickly

This.