help me understand the fire staff obsession

Sergykid

everyone is desperate for fire staves, for myself as magplar even other magplars tell me to use fire staff even if i do sweeps as spammable.
why? everything i do is aoe. Two aoe on the ground, sweeps spammable is aoe, ult, undaunted orb, everything is aoe.

fire staff would add 8% damage just to my light attacks, that's all. I prefer to rather choose 8% damage on everything except one thing.
still everyone is obsessed to use fire staff on their front bar.

i do use fire staff backbar with elemental wall for the 20% bonus damage on burning, but i also extra get the 8% aoe damage when i switch to my shock front bar. Same applies to destro ult, extra morph bonus from fire and extra aoe bonus from shock.

is light attack damage with empower so decisive to just boost it with everything you can even if it means dropping boosts on whatever else you have?
and now shock staff will be even less desired with Exploiter CP perk going away

Vevvev

Some AoE effects count as direct damage for some reason like, you guessed it, sweeps.

Sergykid

Vevvev wrote: »

Some AoE effects count as direct damage for some reason like, you guessed it, sweeps.

it's not dot or direct damage, it's aoe or single target. Sweeps, direct or dot, are aoe hence boosted by shock staff.

Camb0Sl1ce

Because single target damage is just more important, in trials trash pulls or any adds stacked around a boss will go down in cleave and really don't have to be focused most of the time.

Vevvev

Sergykid wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Some AoE effects count as direct damage for some reason like, you guessed it, sweeps.

it's not dot or direct damage, it's aoe or single target. Sweeps, direct or dot, are aoe hence boosted by shock staff.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/511611/is-jabs-a-direct-damage-or-aoe-skills

Scardan

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

Because single target damage is just more important, in trials trash pulls or any adds stacked around a boss will go down in cleave and really don't have to be focused most of the time.

So, trash in trials and vet content will go down fast even without 8% AoE boost?

Also, AoE is used on bosses too. I am magcro and only single target skill I have is Ricochet Skull, the rest - AoE DoTs, even on the frontbar (siphon). Is it really better for me to take a fire staff?

Camb0Sl1ce

@Scardan shouldn't have to really focus down most enemies in trash pulls, unless it's a priority target.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Scardan wrote: »

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

Because single target damage is just more important, in trials trash pulls or any adds stacked around a boss will go down in cleave and really don't have to be focused most of the time.

So, trash in trials and vet content will go down fast even without 8% AoE boost?

Also, AoE is used on bosses too. I am magcro and only single target skill I have is Ricochet Skull, the rest - AoE DoTs, even on the frontbar (siphon). Is it really better for me to take a fire staff?

Most score chasers actually run both. In trash they front bar a lighting staff, on bosses they front bar a fire staff. Even bosses with adds are best handled by fire. A good group still puts out a ton of cleave damage with 8 DPS running fire staffs (especially in the magcro meta). Any add that needs to be focused, well they benefit from fire staff as well because at that point, they are treated just like a boss that needs ST DPS to take it down. I wont say trash is unimportant in score pushing, but ST boss DPS is generally the limiting factor on a timed run. If you arent going to swap gear between pulls, fire is almost always the best option.

Understand that in the high end trial groups (at least on PC with loadout addons), most DPS will have a separate gear loadout for every boss, and likely, 1 or 2 trash loadouts as well depending on the pull.

WrathOfInnos

Inferno Staves are used for 2 reasons. Wall of Fire deals 20% more damage to enemies that are burning, this outweighs the 8% AoE damage from Lightning Staff and the special effect from Wall of Storms (off-balance) can have max uptime with just 1 tank or healer using it.

The 2nd reason is Engulfing Flames, a debuff applied by Dragonknights that makes all Fire damage hit 10% harder. The largest impact here is your Light Attacks, and this 10% stacks with the 8% from Ancient Knowledge. It also increases your Wall damage by another 10%.

In the next update there is a new monster helm that will function similar to Engulfing Flames, making enemies take 5% more damage from Fire. This will make Inferno Stave even more mandatory (compared to Lightning or Frost).

All of this is based around group content. If you are solo then Lightning Staves are fine.

Sergykid

Vevvev wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Some AoE effects count as direct damage for some reason like, you guessed it, sweeps.

it's not dot or direct damage, it's aoe or single target. Sweeps, direct or dot, are aoe hence boosted by shock staff.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/511611/is-jabs-a-direct-damage-or-aoe-skills

you didn't understand me. I don't care if sweeps are dot or direct damage, it doesn't matter.
it matters if it's aoe or not. Shock staff boosts AOE spells, like sweeps. Why would i use fire staff just for LA, when everything i do, spammable included, are aoe.

Sergykid

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

Because single target damage is just more important, in trials trash pulls or any adds stacked around a boss will go down in cleave and really don't have to be focused most of the time.

even if it's single target or not, i still use sweeps, ele wall and class aoe, undaunted orb and destro ult, etc.
so why wouldn't i use shock staff to boost all of those above, even against single target.

Sergykid

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Inferno Staves are used for 2 reasons. Wall of Fire deals 20% more damage to enemies that are burning, this outweighs the 8% AoE damage from Lightning Staff and the special effect from Wall of Storms (off-balance) can have max uptime with just 1 tank or healer using it.

u didn't read everything. Fire staff is used for elemental wall, but shock staff on the other bar will also add 8% aoe damage.
do i lose the ele wall 20% damage if i have a shock staff bar active? even if the wall is fire element from fire staff?

Sergykid

guys i am not asking which one is better. I am asking why fire is better even if my spammable and most i use are aoe.

"boss is single target" so what? i still use spammable which is aoe, i still use orb and ele wall which are aoe.
it's not like fire staff boosts aoe spells because they hit one single target.
it's not like shock staff boosts aoe spells just when you hit more than one target.

shock boosts aoe attacks, even if it's one target or not.

WrathOfInnos

Sergykid wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Inferno Staves are used for 2 reasons. Wall of Fire deals 20% more damage to enemies that are burning, this outweighs the 8% AoE damage from Lightning Staff and the special effect from Wall of Storms (off-balance) can have max uptime with just 1 tank or healer using it.

u didn't read everything. Fire staff is used for elemental wall, but shock staff on the other bar will also add 8% aoe damage.
do i lose the ele wall 20% damage if i have a shock staff bar active? even if the wall is fire element from fire staff?

Back bar determines your Wall element, but front bar staff is going to be most of your Light Attacks, and they will hit ~18% harder with Inferno.

Also consider your other sources of single target damage, enchant procs, Burning status effect, Burning Light procs, Purifying Light, Radiant Oppression. I’d guess about half your damage is single target despite Sweeps and other AoE skills.

orion_1981usub17_ESO

Hmmm... on my magplar is dual destro staffs, fire and lightning for my single target and aoe skills. Why not both?

AcadianPaladin

@Sergykid I'm with you. My magplar is pure AoE so she runs lightning/resto. My magsorc is almost pure AoE and has a class boost to lightning so she runs lightning/lightning.

I also much prefer the feel of shock heavy attacks over fire heavy attacks.

kringled_1

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Inferno Staves are used for 2 reasons. Wall of Fire deals 20% more damage to enemies that are burning, this outweighs the 8% AoE damage from Lightning Staff and the special effect from Wall of Storms (off-balance) can have max uptime with just 1 tank or healer using it.

u didn't read everything. Fire staff is used for elemental wall, but shock staff on the other bar will also add 8% aoe damage.
do i lose the ele wall 20% damage if i have a shock staff bar active? even if the wall is fire element from fire staff?

Back bar determines your Wall element, but front bar staff is going to be most of your Light Attacks, and they will hit ~18% harder with Inferno.

Also consider your other sources of single target damage, enchant procs, Burning status effect, Burning Light procs, Purifying Light, Radiant Oppression. I’d guess about half your damage is single target despite Sweeps and other AoE skills.

When I last did a magplar parse using sweeps as spammable, my sources of damage were radiant oppression, light attack, sweeps, burning light, purifying light. With 4 of the top 5 being single target, the case for inferno staves is pretty strong. (no disagreement Wrath, I just wanted to add a bit of detail).

Sergykid

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Inferno Staves are used for 2 reasons. Wall of Fire deals 20% more damage to enemies that are burning, this outweighs the 8% AoE damage from Lightning Staff and the special effect from Wall of Storms (off-balance) can have max uptime with just 1 tank or healer using it.

u didn't read everything. Fire staff is used for elemental wall, but shock staff on the other bar will also add 8% aoe damage.
do i lose the ele wall 20% damage if i have a shock staff bar active? even if the wall is fire element from fire staff?

Back bar determines your Wall element, but front bar staff is going to be most of your Light Attacks, and they will hit ~18% harder with Inferno.

Also consider your other sources of single target damage, enchant procs, Burning status effect, Burning Light procs, Purifying Light, Radiant Oppression. I’d guess about half your damage is single target despite Sweeps and other AoE skills.

light attacks will hit 8% harder on fire staff, where 18% from ?
execute is on the backbar where fire staff is, and i adapted recently to not even use execute anymore.
i don't use purifying light, instead i have solar barrage for empower and aoe bonus with shock

Skullstachio

I use a Lightning front bar with a frost back bar (because the vateshran frost destruction staff was the first drop I ever got, with precise.) And since then it has been a valuable asset, not to mention, despite having lower damage on the unstable wall of elements, the projectile protection it offers is very good (in the form of a damage shield that protects from projectile attacks.), but the real icing on the cake (no pun intended) is the rare chance it has while actively wielded to apply minor brittle to chilled enemies, increasing their critical damage taken by 10% which is especially better if the enemy has less than 25% health as a Necromage. Minor brittle is a good thing to have if you have really high critical damage. And with a Lightning frontbar thrown in, mob cleaning has never been easier.

Point is: Lightning staves are important for AoE’s, if your skills hit more than one target In an area regardless of it being direct damage or over time (such as a Necromancers Unnerving boneyard, shocking siphon, Blastbones, Skeletal Arcanist, or even skills like mystic orb, wall of elements, etc.) Then it will benefit Destruction Lightning staves more than flame.

WrathOfInnos

Sergykid wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Inferno Staves are used for 2 reasons. Wall of Fire deals 20% more damage to enemies that are burning, this outweighs the 8% AoE damage from Lightning Staff and the special effect from Wall of Storms (off-balance) can have max uptime with just 1 tank or healer using it.

u didn't read everything. Fire staff is used for elemental wall, but shock staff on the other bar will also add 8% aoe damage.
do i lose the ele wall 20% damage if i have a shock staff bar active? even if the wall is fire element from fire staff?

Back bar determines your Wall element, but front bar staff is going to be most of your Light Attacks, and they will hit ~18% harder with Inferno.

Also consider your other sources of single target damage, enchant procs, Burning status effect, Burning Light procs, Purifying Light, Radiant Oppression. I’d guess about half your damage is single target despite Sweeps and other AoE skills.

light attacks will hit 8% harder on fire staff, where 18% from ?
execute is on the backbar where fire staff is, and i adapted recently to not even use execute anymore.
i don't use purifying light, instead i have solar barrage for empower and aoe bonus with shock

10% is from Engulfing Flames debuff in groups. And you want Radiant Oppression on your front bar, where you typically have an extra 5pc set active (which is lost while on the maelstrom staff back bar) and Precise trait (which is lost on back bar because that should be Infused with Berserker enchant proccing on cooldown from Wall).

Sergykid

Skullstachio wrote: »

Point is: Lightning staves are important for AoE’s, if your skills hit more than one target In an area regardless of it being direct damage or over time (such as a Necromancers Unnerving boneyard, shocking siphon, Blastbones, Skeletal Arcanist, or even skills like mystic orb, wall of elements, etc.) Then it will benefit Destruction Lightning staves more than flame.

it doesn't matter if you hit just one target with your aoe abilities, like sweeps do. Shock boosts the ability if it's aoe or not, not depending on how many targets you hit if it's one or more, already mentioned in previous posts
and for necro looks even better shock staff because maybe on magplar you have single target spells like mentioned in post #17, but on necro except skull and LA what else u use for fire.

one thing is the engulfing flames mentioned above, forgot that fire light attacks are still "fire" even though they don't proc anything like burning or BSW set, so they should be boosted by engulfing. However you need a magdk to have 10%, usually tanks have it at 5-7 %

Scardan

Also, lightning stuff procs concussion = Minor Vulnerability for 4 seconds.
So, debuff and 8% more dmg from all AoE, not only Unstable Wall.

So, fire for groups, lightning for solo?

oscarovegren

For magplar specific lightning front and inferno back can be the best options for the reasons you stated.

Ult AoE, spammable AoE, orb AoE, wall AoE, shards AoE, solar barrage AoE

LA SA, purifying SA, degeneration (if you use it) SA

Greek_Hellspawn

Skullstachio wrote: »

Skeletal Arcanist, or even skills like mystic orb, wall of elements, etc.)[/i] Then it will benefit Destruction Lightning staves more than flame.

You're wrong about skeletal arcanist while the damage is aoe it doesn't get buffed by lighting staff. The system understands it like a single target spell because of the bolt it throws thus getting buffed by fire staff you can check the tool tip yourself damage will be higher with a flame staff equipped.

Scardan

Greek_Hellspawn wrote: »

Skullstachio wrote: »

Skeletal Arcanist, or even skills like mystic orb, wall of elements, etc.)[/i] Then it will benefit Destruction Lightning staves more than flame.

You're wrong about skeletal arcanist while the damage is aoe it doesn't get buffed by lighting staff. The system understands it like a single target spell because of the bolt it throws thus getting buffed by fire staff you can check the tool tip yourself damage will be higher with a flame staff equipped.

Very insightful, thank you ^^.

WrathOfInnos

oscarovegren wrote: »

For magplar specific lightning front and inferno back can be the best options for the reasons you stated.

Ult AoE, spammable AoE, orb AoE, wall AoE, shards AoE, solar barrage AoE

LA SA, purifying SA, degeneration (if you use it) SA

It's not quite that simple. Blazing Spear's damage ticks are AoE, but the Burning Light they proc is not. Burning Light accounts for nearly half of the damage of a Blazing Spear cast, and it gets nothing from the 8% AoE bonus on Lightning Staff (strangely is unaffected by Inferno as well).

Similar story with Puncturing Sweep, but with a smaller effect. Lighting Staff will buff the skill's damage, but doesn't affect the ~30% caused by Burning Light.

Mystic Orb does not get buffed by either staff type, it deals exactly the same damage with an Inferno, Lightning or Frost Staff.

Solar Barrage deals AoE ticks, but a large portion of it's damage is from the Empower effect, which buffs your single-target Light Attacks.

JinMori

Honestly, with the changes to light attack damage dual wield actually works pretty damn well. Dunno anymore thoings might have changed since iv'e left a few months ago, again, and with the recent pts changes.

Lum1on

Sergykid wrote: »

light attacks will hit 8% harder on fire staff, where 18% from ?
execute is on the backbar where fire staff is, and i adapted recently to not even use execute anymore.
i don't use purifying light, instead i have solar barrage for empower and aoe bonus with shock

First of all, the reason why inferno staff is more popular in end game content is the simple fact that it gets buffed by so much because of the group, and light attacks actually are (or at least should be) the most DPS to single targets.

That being said, I want to point out that Purifying light is also one of the best damaging skills magplars have. It also provides some healing. Also, magplars' execute is one of the best abilities in the game: it hits extremely hard. You're missing a lot if you don't slot it. Even for solo content where Radiant glory is so good because it heals you from 1% to 100% instantly. So if I were you I'd think about these.

Septimus_Magna

Something like this is pretty easy to test on a 3m dummy (solo) and raid dummy (group) to get an idea what is better for dps.

Sweeps is a strong spammable so buffing it sounds like a good idea but in groups there is a fire damage buffs so usually fire is more beneficial. Simply put, if you gain 8% on 35k dps portion but lose 20% on 10k dps portion you go from 35+10=45k dps to 37.8+8=45.8k dps which would be a net gain of 1.78% dps. There are many skills and functions of skills that are affected or not affected by the destro staff passives so its difficult to determine the difference without testing.

Sergykid

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

oscarovegren wrote: »

For magplar specific lightning front and inferno back can be the best options for the reasons you stated.

Ult AoE, spammable AoE, orb AoE, wall AoE, shards AoE, solar barrage AoE

LA SA, purifying SA, degeneration (if you use it) SA

It's not quite that simple. Blazing Spear's damage ticks are AoE, but the Burning Light they proc is not. Burning Light accounts for nearly half of the damage of a Blazing Spear cast, and it gets nothing from the 8% AoE bonus on Lightning Staff (strangely is unaffected by Inferno as well).

Similar story with Puncturing Sweep, but with a smaller effect. Lighting Staff will buff the skill's damage, but doesn't affect the ~30% caused by Burning Light.

Mystic Orb does not get buffed by either staff type, it deals exactly the same damage with an Inferno, Lightning or Frost Staff.

Solar Barrage deals AoE ticks, but a large portion of it's damage is from the Empower effect, which buffs your single-target Light Attacks.

Burning Light is not boosted by shock or fire staff ?? is this a bug? why is such info "hidden" ?

Mystic Orb is also not boosted by either of the staves? this was a big reason for why i was using shock, is this another bug? it's an aoe spell for sure, but even if it would count as multiple single targets each target, would still need to get boosted by fire staff. Why is this another hidden info.

Empower buffs light attacks, no matter if from shock or fire staff, but you wanna say that it adds up with 8% from fire, that 40% from Empower. I know but for magplar or magcro, it's the only thing fire staff boosts.

WrathOfInnos

Yes, I’m sure the Burning Light issue is a bug, I reported it here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/562651/templar-burning-light-scaling-bug#latest

I think the devs confirmed at one point that Mystic Orb was working as intended, and it’s such a strong skill we can’t really ask for a buff there.

I was also told recently that Ancient Knowledge has no effect on Purifying Light’s final tick either, which also seems like a bug.

As for the Empower, the 40% is additive with the 8% from Inferno, so it doesn’t make a difference if you use Lightning or Inferno when solo for Empowered Light Attacks. It is multiplicative with Engulfing Flames 10%, so Empower becomes 10% stronger if you’re using an Inferno staff when grouped with a MagDK ally.